Do you ever get the impression you're being ignored?

[yallerdawg]

You might just be right.














http://www.pewforum.org/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/

[dhol82]

1. Yeah, never bothered to talk to me.

What am I, chopped liver?

[marylandblue]

4. He only takes calls from numbers he recognizes, to avoid scammers

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

2. the gods

are fairy tales and rules to control people by.

[Mariana]

5. Very effective ones. nt.

[asiliveandbreathe]

3. Yes, I felt invisible at the grocery store yesterday when checking out..

the cashier and bagger were just talkin' away..until, i'm sure the bagger FELT my body language..like all of sudden...would you like help out to the car?? - Maybe an "aura" was all around
me...a halo effect....NOT!!!!

[Cartoonist]

6. Wow, those numbers are going down

Looks like our work here is having an effect.

[MineralMan]

7. Nope. You?

[Voltaire2]

8. 77% of Americans are delusional.

Yup. Not a surprise.

[guillaumeb]

9. And one assumes that you do not consider yourself to be delusional.

Correct?

[Voltaire2]

13. No I accept that is possible.

Just very unlikely with respect to this particular delusion.

[guillaumeb]

15. I also accpet that possibility for myself,

but not in this area.

[Bretton Garcia]

30. Given so many contradictions between religions

Last edited Sat May 19, 2018, 08:44 AM - Edit history (1)

And within them.

And between them and science.

And then all the historical deaths they have caused....

You must added all that up, and decided that yes, this is something you absolutely trust and believe, absolutely, faithfully and without question?

Or did you originally buy it all, without thinking much, as a child? Because the preachers seemed so nice, and before you developed a critical adult mind, they told you their teachings were perfect?

And once your brain was washed as a child, few have the strength and independence to break away.

And now with serene vanity, ignoring all problems, ... you extol its wonders; endlessly.

[Voltaire2]

41. Wait, what?

You now believe, without any doubt, in gods that intervene to protect you?

That is the 77% item I responded to as “delusional”. Did you not understand that? Do you understand that your assertion that you believe in gods that directly intervene in this world contradicts some of your other statements about your faith in this forum?

It is almost as if you fit your statements here about whatever it is that you believe to whatever point you happen to be arguing. But that level of sophistry would be blatantly dishonest. You must have just misunderstood what the 77% referred to.

[guillaumeb]

46. No, I do not.

Your previous reply was somewhat vague. So that is on you to be more specific.

[Voltaire2]

48. No it wasn't. There is only one category of 77%

in that list. But if you misunderstood that is fine, you certainly have the opportunity to, for once, correct and clarify your own statements here.

Do you believe that there is, as 77% of Americans do, an interventionist god that protects them?

[guillaumeb]

52. Read #13 in context,

and then read #15 in context.

We were talking solely about the possibility of being deluded in general.

[Voltaire2]

56. Seriously?

As usual you have some other version of English with your own definitions of common words.

13. No I accept that is possible.
Just very unlikely with respect to this particular delusion.

15. I also accpet that possibility for myself,
but not in this area.

WTF?

[guillaumeb]

10. What percentage of atheists believe in a higher power?

Well, since I asked:

Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 8% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit. Indeed, 2% say they are “absolutely certain” about the existence of God or a universal spirit. Alternatively, there are many people who fit the dictionary definition of “atheist” but do not call themselves atheists. About three times as many Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (9%) as say they are atheists (3%).

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

[Ron Obvious]

11. Those aren't atheists then.

While it's possible (though unlikely) for an atheist to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, say, believing in gods or universal spirits is right out.

Believe what you want, but the definition of atheism is clear and binary.

Atheism: a-theism, i.e. without theism, i.e., no gods. No more, no less.

[guillaumeb]

12. But if they call themselves atheists,

would you tell them that they are not?

[Voltaire2]

14. They can call themselves Napoleon too.

But by the common definition of both atheism and napoleon they are neither.

[guillaumeb]

16. So no true atheist would so believe?

Interesting.

[Voltaire2]

21. It is, again, not a religion, nor a belief system.

It is the condition of not believing in any gods.

It has a simple and precise definition, as does the condition of being Napoleon Bonaparte. Note that theism has a similar property. One either believes in one or more gods that exist in the world or one does not.

The property “Christian” on the other hand is ambiguous, there is no concise definition. If you can provide an objective rule for who is or is not a Christian, other than “they claim to be Christians”, we can use that to categorize people.

[guillaumeb]

22. If they call themselves atheists,

I accept that self-definition.

[Lordquinton]

25. You always have had trouble

with the actual definitions of words.

[Mariana]

27. The question in that poll appears to be deliberately worded

so as to confuse the issue. What exactly is a "universal spirit"? It's not the same thing as a god, because those respondents were asked if they believe in a god or in a "universal spirit". Those who believe in "universal spirits" but who don't believe in any gods are atheists.

[Bretton Garcia]

31. Someone might believe in the spirit of love....

Or the spirit of rational inquiry, I guess.

Or a spirit that wasn't a god?

[Mariana]

34. Your guess is as good as mine.

It's weird they used such vague wording, unless it was done intentionally to elicit more "Yes" answers.

[Lordquinton]

35. It amazes me how some can have absolute conviction

In something they can't even define except to say what it isn't.

[Mariana]

37. Surveys usually don't ask for the respondents' definitions

so of course those definitions would not be given and would not appear in the survey report.

[Lordquinton]

38. Which is why we get this "It all means the same thing, right?"

Which usually means their own personal interpretation, and leads to things like "Atheists believe in god!"

[Mariana]

39. The question was probably written that way intentionally

to skew the results. Ask a group of people "Do you believe in a god?" and you'll get X people who say yes. Ask those same people "Do you believe in a god or in a (conveniently undefined) universal spirit?" then you'll get X + Y people who say yes. Then you imply they all believe in pretty much the same thing.

[Lordquinton]

40. Seems intellectually dishonest

And also familiar...

[guillaumeb]

42. And the atheists who believe in a higher power?

Are you the official definer?

[Lordquinton]

47. You aren't

as much as you claim to be.

[guillaumeb]

50. And you are?

You made a statement that implies much.

[Lordquinton]

53. Sorry G-man, you aren't the arbitrator

and your deflections are pathetically transparent.

[guillaumeb]

54. And you are the arbitrator?

Referring to your earlier pronouncement on what is the sole official acceptable definition of atheism.

The very definitive illustration of the no true Scotsman fallacy in action.

[Lordquinton]

55. Really? I don't recall ever doing that

You must be thinking of one of your posts.

[guillaumeb]

57. A worrying sign for you.

Considering that it happened very recently.

[Lordquinton]

58. Where?

[guillaumeb]

59. Above thread, in #25.

[Lordquinton]

60. So no where?

While I have your attention, can you answer the question I asked here?

[guillaumeb]

61. Was that a question?

I saw it as a tactic on your part.

And I still do.

[Lordquinton]

62. So no answer?

Yes it is a tactic. I ask direct questions and theists deflect, reframe, and hurl abuse to get out of answering them.

[guillaumeb]

63. Thank you for illustrating your tactics again.

[Lordquinton]

64. Why are you scared of answering questions?

Can you answer the one I linked above?

[guillaumeb]

65. There are questions,

and there are statements followed by a question mark.

[Lordquinton]

66. And I asked a question

Rather straight forward one at that.

[yallerdawg]

17. Could an atheist believe an "indefinable something" started it all...

or was out there somewhere but absolutely has no relationship with us or the universe or the whatever, completely ambivalent to our existence?

Wouldn't that be an atheist - not an "I-don't-know-for-sure agnostic" - but most definitely not a theist?

[Ron Obvious]

19. It's perfectly reasonable, in fact wise, to say "I don't know".

I don't know if anything might have preceded the Big Bang (if that question even makes sense), or if there's a multiverse. Maybe I'll never know. That's perfectly fine.

It's when you start making up stories with no evidence other than that you'd like them to be true or because you feel there has to be a purpose to it all, that's when you leave the path of wisdom.

"I don't know": A perfectly acceptable and honest answer, until such a time as evidence can be presented and examined.

[guillaumeb]

20. A good question.

But if that indefinable something was a creative force, the prime mover, I would argue that we are arguing over wording.

[marylandblue]

33. All of those terms will mean different things to different people

And so if you ask about each of them separately, people will respond differently to each.

[Lordquinton]

36. So it's back to semiotics?

[guillaumeb]

43. Or semantics? eom

[Mariana]

28. I think those people are generally considered deists.

Your "indefinable something" reminds me of the vague, rather meaningless "nature's god" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. And the "universal spirit" asked about in the survey Gil is going on about. Those are other ways to say "indefinable something".

[Ron Obvious]

18. I doubt that I would care enough to.

I've long ago resigned from the debating society, but if they were to ask me if I considered them atheists, I would say I didn't.

[marylandblue]

23. The questions are too vague to be helpful here.

They asked about "God or a universal spirit." Some people may believe that a universal spirit is not a god. Others may affiliate themselves with a religion and so not call themselves atheists but they might not believe in God.

[guillaumeb]

44. And each person might "hear" the question differently.

Thus the different answers.

[Mariana]

26. What the hell is a "universal spirit"?

Clearly, it isn't the same thing as a god, since respondents were asked if they believe in a god or a universal spirit. If they don't believe in any gods but do believe in a "universal spirit", then they are indeed atheists. There is no conflict, they are using the word correctly.

[guillaumeb]

45. So what, in your own view, would this universal spirit be?

A collective consciousness?

[Mariana]

49. I'm not going to make up a definition.

It would be interesting to know what the participants in the survey, the ones who believe there is such a thing, think it means.

[guillaumeb]

51. True. eom

[SCantiGOP]

24. You better do what Jesus wants

Or he will send you to eternal damnation.
Why?
Because he loves you.

(apologies to G Carlin)

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. Not really, though clearly, many Americans believe they're being watched

More generally, 53% of all adults describe themselves as having no religious affiliation, up from 48% in 2015. The latest figure is the highest since the BSA survey began tracking religious affiliation in 1983, when 31% said they had no religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/half-uk-population-has-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

A YouGov poll for the Times has shown a four-point decline in the percentage of people who believe in a higher power, from 32 per cent in February last year to 28 per cent now.

The drop suggests a far sharper decrease than in previous years, the Times says. Britons' belief in God has long been in decline, but at a rate of about one per cent a year, the newspaper reports, citing a different question used by the British Attitudes Survey in 1991, which found half the population thought there was a god.

By 2008 the number of believers had fallen to about 35 per cent, suggesting a roughly one per cent decline per annum.

Meanwhile the proportion of atheists – people who say they do not actively believe in any kind of god – has risen from 33 per cent to 38 per cent.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/80065/belief-in-god-plunges-after-torrid-year

[Bretton Garcia]

32. Sociologists agree that such" trends" are important.

About as much as, or more than, existing raw numbers.