Are atheists allowed to make judgements who does and doesn't count as a real Christian?

[DetlefK]

So, let's say a Christian uses the Bible to make the argument that another Christian is not a true Christian. That accusation of course has some gravity.

Now, an atheist uses the Bible to make the argument that a Christian is not a true Christian. Why isn't he taken serious?

[FBaggins]

1. Sure!

They just look silly doing it

[DetlefK]

15. Why?

Why is it okay for a Christian to say "You are not a real Christian because you don't believe in X", but it's not okay for an atheist to say "You are not a real Christian because you don't believe in X"?

[FBaggins]

28. For the same reason that a "Creation 'Scientist'" can't tell a geologist how old the Earth is...

... despite using what he believes is a scientific method. Or a Christian can't proclaim that Islam is/is not a "religion of peace" based on some select readings from the Koran.

He lacks credibility on the subject - even using the same text. With your earlier example, I would argue that reading the Bible to say that Christians can't eat bacon falls well outside any reasonable reading of the Bible. I think it's an excellent example of the contrary argument.

Why is it okay for a Christian to say "You are not a real Christian because you don't believe in X"

Well... I wouldn't agree that that always is ok. Being a Christian doesn't actually require a full understanding of scripture or theology in general.

[Mariana]

29. It's OK for either one to say it.

As FBaggins said, "Sure!" No one's going to go to jail for saying it in the US, for the time being at least.

It's also a waste of time for either one to say it. The Christian who's being told he's not a real Christian will usually ignore the atheist and the Christian equally, and won't change his behavior at all. He's likely to answer the Christian with something like, "It's you who isn't a real Christian, because you don't believe in Y! So there!"

[TimeSnowDemos]

2. Christians ignore

the opinions about Christians from non-Christians in the same way that atheists ignore the opinions of non-athiests about atheism.

Muslims ignore Jews opinions about Islam, Buddhists ignore Christians, etc.

These are closed shops and largely only care about what other believers in their specific ideology espouse.

And even then...

[DetlefK]

16. We are not talking "opinion". We are talking about an argument based on the Bible.

For example, I, an atheist, claim that you, a Christian, are not a real Christian because you eat bacon, even though the Bible outlaws eating pork.

What is your reasoning for disqualifying my argument as an "opinion"?

[TimeSnowDemos]

20. It's ALLL opinion

Last edited Wed May 30, 2018, 08:19 AM - Edit history (1)

The Bible is interpretation, old testament rules are for old testament times, etc. etc..

You'll note that not a single person on the planet follows these rules... Christians can therefore believe that there's not a single Christian and hasn't been for centuries, OR they can believe whatever variation of 'some of the Bible isn't meant for me or isn't meant to be taken litsrally' they happen to believe.

When you confront YHAT belief they're gonna largely ignore you. You're just sharing your opinion on their opinion about the Bible.

Trying to make religion rational is always gonna be a fail.

[DetlefK]

21. Then how much deviation from the literal take of the Bible is allowed to still count as a Christian?

[TimeSnowDemos]

24. Almost 100%

Do you know what faith is?

Faith is acknowledging that you believe something you can't logically explain.

And no two people have the same version of Christianity in their own heads. We categorize people into sects and denominations, but it's all just belief based on opinion.

Sure some Christians believe the entire Bible is allegory. Some Christians believe that God wrote every word himself, but hey they're only human and can't truly understand its intent.

Etc.

Trying to logic faith is self defeating. It's like trying to logic fortune telling. Or belief in ghosts or angels... True faith is by definition illogical.

[MineralMan]

3. I deliberately do not do that. If someone claims Christianity,

I accept that. Of course, I then look at Christianity from that person's behavior. Too often, what I see is something I don't like very much. And then, when other Christians fail to criticize such people and say that they aren't really Christian, then I have to wonder even more.

I'm an atheist. I reject Christianity in its entirety. I leave Christianity to Christians. That does not mean that I don't criticize it. I just let Christians decide who is a Christian. They don't seem to want to do that, though.

[3Hotdogs]

12. I think it was Seneca Chief, Red Jacket. He got tired of the various preachers coming to him to

explain how their version of Christianity was better then the versions of the other purveyors of truth.

(Paraphrase) I will watch your parishioners and see how they treat the Red Man. If they do not steal or mistreat the Red Man, then I will know that theirs is the true message. If they mistreat the Red Man, then I will ignore your message.


How do you think this ended?

[MineralMan]

13. Oh, I know how it ended.

In California, much earlier, it had to do with the Roman Catholic Church, which enslaved the peaceful, hunting and gathering coastal Chumash culture. The Chumash did not survive Catholicism, sadly. I can never forgive that genocide on their part.

[wasupaloopa]

4. Why is this important? Why can't christians

leave it alone?

If I don’t believe in your god it isn’t any Of your business.

[samnsara]

5. i only call out those who use their Christianity to validate something bad they are doing...

...since as when i was growing up all that shit was tossed in my face as how to behave or 'youre gonna burn in hell'...so yeah.

[Mariana]

10. That only works if they agree with you that the behavior is bad.

I suspect most of them have convinced themselves that God approves of their behavior.

[Cartoonist]

6. I am now an Atheist

But I used to be a Confirmed Catholic. I believe that gives me insider knowledge. I'd have a hard time commenting on the intricacies of Islam or other religions.

[thucythucy]

8. I self-deleted a long post because it made me sound too self-righteous,

which I try not to be.

But I have no trouble quoting Scripture back at people trying to convert me to any sort of right wing version of Christianity. For some reason this used to happen quite often, so I became quite adept at using the Bible to back up my belief that most conservative or Evangelical American Christians don't really practice what it is they think they're preaching.

And when I do this I think I get taken very seriously indeed.

[Mariana]

9. I don't feel qualified to do that.

I can't read anyone's mind. With thousands of different denominations of Christianity, it's impossible to guess which ones are real Christians and which are only pretending. Maybe one day, all the Christians will agree on who is a real Christian and who isn't. Until that day, if someone claims to be a Christian, I accept that.

[DetlefK]

17. And what if they abuse this and harm other people?

I remember a blog-post by an evangelical pastor. She called the prosperity-gospel, their thirst for money, and them taking advantage of the gullible, abominations. And in the next sentence she wrote that even though they are doing horrible things in the name of a perverted form of Christianity, we still shouldn't question whether they are real Christians.

[Mariana]

19. Well, many of them have convinced themselves

that their abusive and harmful actions are in fact good actions, and are pleasing to God. Today, that would include those who work to prevent women from exercising reproductive rights, and who oppose equal rights for LGBT people. I don't think it's reasonable to question their faith just because we don't agree with the way they interpret the book.

I can understand the pastor's admonition not to question anyone's Christianity, no matter how appalling their behavior. Once a Christian starts down that road, he may come around to questioning the entire idea, and that may lead him to reject Christianity altogether.

[aka-chmeee]

11. "That accusation of course has some gravity"?

The accused christian can likely counter the accusation with the same source...result, said gravity has been cancelled.

[DetlefK]

18. Let's give this a try, shall we?

"You are not a real Christian because you eat bacon and the Bible outlaws eating pork."

Counter me.

[marylandblue]

22. That's the Old Testament

New Testament allows us to eat everything. Problem solved.

[DetlefK]

23. Where does it say that?

[marylandblue]

25. Matthew 15:11, also Acts chapter 11

[The Genealogist]

38. What about Matthew 5:17-18?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."

[marylandblue]

39. I've been told by Christians that Jesus IS the law

So when he changes the law, he doesn't really change it, it really stays the same and when you accept Jesus into your heart, you are fulfilling all of the law through Jesus, through whom all things are possible. Or something like that.

[The Genealogist]

40. Soounds like they're making an excuse to eat bacon & wear cotton-wool blends

But what do I know.

[marylandblue]

41. That's exactly what they did

Because if they didn't let the Greeks and Romans eat pork and keep their foreskins, there wouldn't be 2 billion Christians in the world today.

[Voltaire2]

14. They're all Christians as far as I'm concerned.

Their goofy holy book is about as malleable as a tarot deck. You can read into it any world view you want, and back it up with some text. I object to anyone declaring “not a true Christian” until somebody comes up with a useful objective standard for measurement.

[beachbum bob]

26. why do you think that is the case as a sign of being a Christian can be set by definition

and you don't need to be a christian to offer the definition of one

[BlueTsunami2018]

27. Absolutely. One doesn't need to be religious to know what what a religion stands for.

I’m an agnostic, non-theistic evolutionist or a secular humanist if you like, but I dig the Christ character’s message. “Be cool to each other” is how I try to live. There’s a lot to be said for people who truly believe in helping those less fortunate and actually doing it. The people who wave the Bible in your face and then act the exact opposite way that it tells you to are, in my opinion, false Christians. You can’t be a real Christian and hate the poor, try to take food from the hungry, try to deny medical care to the sick, turn away the stranger in need and base your life on greed.

You don’t have to believe in the Bible to know what it is ostensibly teaching. And it’s perfectjy fine for a non-believer to point out to someone who allegedly does, that they’re being hypocritical or proclaiming to be something they’re not.

[Mariana]

33. Who knows what the hell Christianity stands for?

There are thousands of denominations, and probably millions of independent practitioners, all of them different and all of them absolutely certain that they are right and that everyone else is doing it wrong. They all use the same book, with a few editorial changes here and there in different editions, and yet they come to so many very different conclusions when they read it. It's as if each of them is making it up as they go along.

[BlueTsunami2018]

37. I think the basic Jesus gist is the same.

Love your neighbor, feed the hungry, house the homeless, heal the sick, welcome the stranger. Basically, don’t be an asshole.

That’s the general idea of all religions. Unfortunately, people get bogged down in ridiculous minutiae about food, sexuality and even which hand you should use to wipe your ass and ignore that basic message.

“Be cool to each other” should be the first and foremost rule to all of it. None of that other crap should matter.

[Zambero]

30. Yes, Christianity has a temporal element

One needs to go directly to the source. The New Testament is not lacking in teachings of how people should treat one another in this life. Compassion and assistance for the sick and hungry, loving one's neighbor, the good Samaritan (aka the other), not throwing stones, etc. It would seem that pious claims of being "saved" while proceeding to ignore Christ's instructions to his followers might fall a bit short of the mark of what it means to be a Christian.

[Major Nikon]

32. The source betrays your notion

One needs to look no farther than the sticker plastered on every other Christian's bumper to understand there's only one thing needed to make the cut.

[Zambero]

42. If only the source itself was consistent

Lot's of options to suit one's own comfort level. Still, the printed (and admittedly multi-translated) verbage persists about whited sepulchers, faith without works (dead), being judgmental in the face of one's own transgressions, public piety on the part of hypocrites, camels passing through needles etc. Indeed, there might be a course beyond faith alone. Does "belief" also imply adherence to a set of teachings as well? One cannot believe while choosing to ignore the basis of belief. The Old Testament reveals Ten Commandments. Do they still apply in terms of "making the cut"?

[Major Nikon]

43. The promise of reward is conveniently unverifiable

So believers can and most certainly do interpret it any way they want. I'm just pointing out the protestant reformation doctrine hedges its bet on 3:16 so any idea of conformity as a condition of salvation is probably going to be lost on a great many, and particularly so on the majority of Christians in the US.

[Major Nikon]

31. It's stupid to claim anyone's faith isn't real

Only they can judge that. If someone claims they are a Christian, then they are a Christian. Any claims to the contrary are idiotic regardless of who makes them.

[enki23]

34. No. Nor are Christians.

The label has, from the very beginning, covered such a broad array of beliefs that there is no reasonable objective standard to judge when it applies. Other than to note whether someone applies it themselves. "Christian" is just a person who calls themselves such.

At least till we can sort them by the success of their miracle working.

[tkmorris]

35. Since Atheists have more intimate knowledge of what the Bible actually says

than self-described "Christians" do, I'd say their argument has greater gravity than the "Christian's" does. Wouldn't you?

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. The only people quibbling over who is and who isn't a "real" Christian are the Christians.

There is no such thing as "real" Christianity. There are no such people as "true Christians". There are simply people looking to excuse themselves from inconvenient or distasteful associations.