Should we respect the sincere religious beliefs of the Westboro Baptist Church?

[Voltaire2]

Is disrespecting their homopohobic and misogynist idiocy depriving them of their freedom of religion?

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. AT least these vile and filthy piles of human excrement are equal opportunity

haters.

They dont conveniently pick out their victims then expect everyone else to do business with them and so on.

These FAKE christians not wanting to bake cakes are the real hypocrites.

[Voltaire2]

2. Well that's a fine point: should I respect the sincerely held religious beliefs

of the hateful homophobic cake baker?

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. No, the cake baker is the ultimate bigot and hypocrite.

[trotsky]

10. How does one determine who a "fake" Christian is?

Jesus said to sell all one's possessions to follow him. So that's a whole hell of a lot of fake Christians then.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. This is probably where somebody says something about metaphor...

...before calling you a literalist and insinuating you're just like the people to whom you are diametrically opposed.

[trotsky]

12. Ah, you've seen this movie before too, eh? n/t

[uppityperson]

4. People can believe what they want. They can't treat others badly. Belief vs action

It's not such a difficult concept, really.

[Voltaire2]

5. Not the question I asked.

Of course people can believe whatever they happen to believe. The question is, is a belief deserving of respect simply because it is sincerely believed?

[uppityperson]

6. Define "deserving of respect". Using what I assume that term means, no of course it isn't.

Argh autocorrect

[Voltaire2]

7. right. Seems obvious to me.

Others in this forum seem to disagree.

[uppityperson]

8. I respect other's right to have a different belief. No one needs to respect anyone else's

belief. And you can't use your beliefs to hurt others.

[trotsky]

16. "you can't use your beliefs to hurt others"

That's just your belief. But you state it like everyone needs to respect it.

[uppityperson]

22. The OP asked for opinions. That is my opinion. I'm not going to argue even

though you seem to want to.

[trotsky]

25. Plenty of people believe contradictory things.

No big deal, I guess.

[notdarkyet]

52. No. I could give you lots of examples, through history. But that doesn't make those beliefs valid.

[trotsky]

14. Isn't the notion that we shouldn't treat others badly just another belief?

Why should THAT belief be respected?

[ollie10]

17. do you want me to treat you badly?

[tulipsandroses]

9. Nope

Never, Nada - I don't respect Hate Speech

[Iggo]

13. Of course not.

I respect their rights.

Their beliefs I don't.

[Voltaire2]

15. Seems both obvious and orthogonal.

[marylandblue]

18. Is there something wrong with respecting someone's beliefs without agreeing with them?

Last edited Tue Jun 5, 2018, 08:42 PM - Edit history (1)

What bad thing happens if you do that?

[Major Nikon]

19. You can certainly respect or agree with whatever beliefs you want

I just don’t want to be told I must do the same in either instance.

[Voltaire2]

20. Is there something wrong with not respecting

beliefs that are revolting hateful or stupid?

[marylandblue]

21. Depends on what your goal is.

[Voltaire2]

23. One of my goals is to not elevate the stupid abhorrent

and harmful to the level of the credible.

[marylandblue]

24. That sounds like you are just disrespecting whatever

you think ought to be disrespected.

[Voltaire2]

35. Well yes that is true.

Do you respect creationist “science”?

[marylandblue]

38. Not as real science, but as a belief someone really holds

And how I treat it depends on who I am talking to. On DU, I don't give it much respect, because I don't expect any DUers to take it seriously. If I am talking to someone who believes in it, I may respectfully try to talk them out of it. Or ignore it, if I don't think I will get anywhere with the discussion.

That's why purposes matter.

[Voltaire2]

47. Disrespecting a belief does not require disrespecting

The believer. The believer can choose to be insulted by extension, but that is their choice.

[marylandblue]

50. A lot of people don't separate their beliefs and their self-images so easily

So again, it depends on your purpose. If you want to mock other people's beliefs just because you think they are mockable, and if those people don't like it, that's their problem, sure you could do that. But what purpose does it serve? Does it have any purpose other than making you and other atheists laugh or feel smart?

[Voltaire2]

58. It serves the purpose of informing people

that their beliefs are idiotic, vile, harmful etc.

The alternative of pretending that idiotic, vile, harmful etc beliefs are in fact serious and respectable is first of all dishonest. Secondly we can see exactly where this sort of dishonest approach has gotten us in our current political situation.

[marylandblue]

59. Lot's of people said Trump and his followers were deplorable

So I don't think those people were not informed about it. They either did not think they were being idotic or vile, or did not care.

Have you ever gotten anyone to change their mind after informing that their opinions were vile?

[Voltaire2]

60. Not enough. And worse Trump was and is treated

as if he is a serious person with serious beliefs.

[marylandblue]

61. There is no evidence that if more people called out Trump, his based would have listened

There is a lot of evidence that people are subject to all sorts of cognitive biases and that telling them it is nonsense does not reduce their bias, if anything, it strengthens it.

[Voltaire2]

62. Yes you certainly can't argue people out of their beliefs through rational discourse.

I think you've substituted in "telling them it is nonsense" for "using evidence based arguments".

There is plenty of research that shows that you cannot change people's beliefs by demonstrating that they are wrong on the facts. Most notoriously, people who believe that climate change is a liberal conspiracy cannot be persuaded by respectfully demonstrating that they are completely wrong by showing them mountains of evidence disproving all of their assertions.

On the other hand emotional arguments are effective.

[marylandblue]

63. Telling people "you have the right to believe nonsense"

Or I don't respect your beliefs is not an emotional argument. In fact, it's not any kind of argument at all. It only announces what you think. But it doesn't provide any reason, emotional or otherwise, to listen to it.

[Voltaire2]

64. Actually it might be, but not the point.

The point was that the argument you made had the facts wrong. It is respectful rational evidence base arguments that, notoriously, reinforce idiotic beliefs.

[marylandblue]

65. That wasn't my point

My point was that just telling them nonsense is nonsense or disrespecting their beliefs isn't particularly convincing. So if you think might work, what is that based on?

[Voltaire2]

66. Well you referred to the current research on

Beliefs, but as I noted that research is primarily about the ineffectiveness if polite rational persuasion tactics.

But I think there is another issue here, the issue of honesty. If you think a belief is vile but pretend it is respectable you are being dishonest.

[marylandblue]

67. Ok, so your goal is to be honest, and the consequences of being honest are not so important?

[Voltaire2]

68. Striving for honesty is a good thing.

But you haven’t established that fake respect has superior outcomes to honest disrespect. So until you do I’ll choose honesty over condescending prestense.

[marylandblue]

69. Again, depends what your goals are

And what your actual opinions are. In my case, my goal is to have interesting dialogue and to understand different points view, including dangerous views. I want to see people as full human beings in all their complexity, not put them in categories based on their viewpoints. I'm pretty broadminded in ways you'd probably find disturbing or absurd. And this does mean I've had some discussions with some pretty vile people.

[Funtatlaguy]

26. With Fred dead, is daughter Margie Phelps now their leader?

She seemed to be the most like him of all of his spawn.

[vlyons]

27. What kind of question is this?

Are you a troll? That you would ask such a question on DU makes you immediately suspect as a homophobic RW troll. Those haters deserve about as much respect as Nazis.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

28. The point being: why do other beliefs get special treatment, then?

If beliefs don't automatically get respect, then why do so many here tell people not to be disrespectful to beliefs? Why do I have to respect the belief that there was a guy named Jesus and that he performed miracles and was the son of god? None of that seems to make any sense. Yet, for some reason, I have to respect it. Unless those that believe it are conservative and/or bigots, then it's OK to not respect it.

All I'm asking for is some consistency and realize by those calling for respect that they do the same thing.

[vlyons]

30. No you don't. Use your brain.

Just because someone says respect this or respect that doesn't mean that you HAVE to also. It's not about respecting their beliefs, but respecting their rights to have silly illogical beliefs. That is not the same thing as using discriminating wisdom about holding your tongue and giving someone the space and freedom to believe in a religion that you can't personally support. I have family members, who are devout Christians, but I would never tell them that a virgin birth is ridiculous, or that defying the laws of gravity and ascending to heaven (wherever that is) is completely impossible. Not because I respect their religion, but because I love them and don't want to offend them. They simply are not ready or willing to hear the truth. I'm a Buddhist. We don't proselytize and try to convert people. You have to sincerely ask for teachings. Think about it. Is telling someone that their religion is stupid a productive way to have an honest and logical conversation with him? It would just get their egos all defensive.

However if these same relatives started spewing hateful beliefs, I would tell them not to say such hateful things in my presence. Obviously I can't force anyone to change their beliefs, but I have total control about staying in the same room as a hater.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

31. Of course I don't. That's not the point. And I'm talking about people IN HERE.

The whole 11th Commandment bullshit. The tone police are very active here, but they seem fine to talk about those they don't like.

[vlyons]

33. Gentle speech is a virtue

How and when to express ourselves in an appropriate manner has been an obstacle that I have stumbled over many times. In Buddhism, we talk about the perfect body, speech, and mind of a Buddha. That we all have Buddha nature, but it is obscured by negativities that need to be eliminated. If we spent more time carefully considering our words before speaking, we would stumble less frequently. Every time that a correct tone cop corrects you, use it as an opportunity to learn something. If you speak the truth with gentle speech without anger or condescension, your words can be powerful. It takes practice. Careful speech is one of the things that I most admired Obama for. Many times, I saw him pause in a speech to find just the right words to not rile people up to anger. Right speech takes practice.

That's why Buddhism is not a religion, but a practice.

[Voltaire2]

36. Because it has been asserted repeatedly here

that all beliefs (although perhaps only all religious beliefs) must be respected. I find that belief itself to be blithering nonsense and obviously wrong.

[MineralMan]

45. You appear to be walking a fine line between discussion

and personal attack with this. Please take care not to cross over the wrong side of that line. Thank you.

I suggest you read your own post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=286861

[cyclonefence]

29. How, exactly, could we respect their--or any other church's--beliefs?

I can refrain from bursting into their church screaming obscenities, which I'm happy to do, but otherwise how does one "respect the beliefs" of anyone else? People who vandalize houses of worship or religious cemeteries obviously do not respect the beliefs of the people whose property they vandalize, but I don't think that's what you're asking.

I respect their first-amendment rights, with the limits the law imposes on anyone's first-amendment rights, if that's what you're asking. They have an absolute right to protest what their religion teaches them is wrong; what form their protesting takes is subject to consequences, but their right to protest is inviolable.

I don't have to respect them individually as persons who hold abhorrent opinions and values, but again, expressing my lack of respect comes with consequences for how I express my lack of respect.

They are horrible people who protest loudly and cruelly at funerals; when they overstep the bounds, they are shut down. If we truly believe in free speech, we have to accommodate ourselves to this. After all, "nice" speech doesn't need protecting.

[thucythucy]

32. What do you mean by "respect"?

They have their beliefs, which the First Amendment protects from government suppression, along with their right to express those beliefs.

I have the right to disagree with those beliefs, also protected by the First Amendment.

When the expression of their beliefs compromises the rights or safety of others, they lose the protection of the First Amendment and become subject, where applicable, to criminal and civil liability.

The same holds true for me for any religious, political, or civic organization.

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. I think it is pretty straightforward.

We're not talking about the legal definition of respect, here. First, it isn't like any of his here have the ability to not respect religion legally. Second, because the the right to not be religious is inextricably tied to the right to be religious, any atheist suggesting there should be no law respecting freedom of religion would be an idiot.

You callin' us idiots?

[thucythucy]

40. Are you talking to me?

Did I call anyone an idiot?

I was asking the question. "We're not talking about the legal definition of respect here." Well, the OP might have included that in the question, but didn't. I'm not a mind reader.

Is anyone here saying we're somehow obligated to "respect" the Westboro Church in anything but a legal sense? If so, I haven't seen it, but perhaps you could provide a link?

[Act_of_Reparation]

42. No... and that's precisely the OP's point.

No one around here thinks we should respect the Westboro Baptist Church. Plenty of people, however, think we should respect the Catholic Church, even though it too promotes a homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, anachronistic agenda.

[thucythucy]

44. I see.

Like I said, the OP might have made an overt reference to that analogy.

[Voltaire2]

37. And you are conflating the right to believe

with a right to have those beliefs respected. They are not the same. The WBC has the right to practice their religion, nobody has to give their shitty beliefs any respect.

[thucythucy]

39. I suppose.

Is anybody here actually disputing that?

[Voltaire2]

41. Well yes.

That is what prompted this. An assertion that all (religious) beliefs should be respected and the conflation of a right to believe with this dubious assertion that beliefs must be respected.

[thucythucy]

43. Okay well maybe you should link to that post

or OP or reference it in your OP.

You asked a question, and I answered it as best I could.

Not everyone follows all the back and forth here.

[Voltaire2]

46. Nope. Not going to do that.

If anyone cares to defend the position that all beliefs should be respected they can do so here. It

[thucythucy]

48. Then I'll go away believing

that the question in your OP is in response to a straw man you've created.

'Bye.

[Voltaire2]

49. that's fine.

[marylandblue]

51. The OP, and some other similar posts are in response to a particular poster

Who argues that atheists should not disrespect liberal religionists or their beliefs apparently because they are political allies. I say apparently because that seems to be what that particular poster is suggesting, but I am not entirely sure.

[Voltaire2]

54. Liberal never entered into it.

It was a categorical “ought”.

[marylandblue]

56. I know, I am interpreting what I think he meant

[Voltaire2]

57. I tried repeatedly to get any qualification.

[leanforward]

53. With regard to religious beliefs,

I can respect those beliefs.

HOWEVER, when those beliefs diminish fellow citizens, I don't respect the actions of their beliefs. Westboro has acted to disrespect soldiers that were KIA.

You respect all citizens of this Country, regardless of lifestyle. There is a separation of church(religion) and state.

[Voltaire2]

55. Why?

What is special about religious beliefs that no matter how repulsive they ought to be respected?