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Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 10:55 AM Nov 2019

Bishop Named by Pope to Investigate Abuse is Accused Himself

New York Times

Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio, the longtime leader of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn, sexually abused an 11-year-old altar boy during his tenure as a young priest in Jersey City in the 1970s, according to a lawyer who helped unleash Boston’s priest abuse scandal.

...

Last month, Pope Francis chose Bishop DiMarzio to investigate the Buffalo, N.Y., diocese, where Bishop Richard J. Malone has come under criticism for his handling of a mushrooming clergy abuse scandal.


I mean. Wow.
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Bishop Named by Pope to Investigate Abuse is Accused Himself (Original Post) Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 OP
Like the accused barr investigating abuse of any kind empedocles Nov 2019 #1
The depth and breadth of this scandal is remarkable. MineralMan Nov 2019 #2
It's incredible. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 #4
Clearly, it is the second thing. MineralMan Nov 2019 #5
"It cannot be fixed from inside the organization" trotsky Nov 2019 #8
In many ways, the RCC is organized perfectly for MineralMan Nov 2019 #11
Then again, maybe they are taking the Sgt. Stedenko approach Major Nikon Nov 2019 #6
Yes... The church needs to give any and all information Dorian Gray Nov 2019 #46
But can we really be surprised anymore? trotsky Nov 2019 #3
I'm shocked. Voltaire2 Nov 2019 #7
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? guillaumeb Nov 2019 #9
You and David Brooks should go bowling. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 #10
Does he cheat when scoring? eom guillaumeb Nov 2019 #14
Only if both sides can do it. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 #16
One can be a watcher and/or the watched. In many cases MineralMan Nov 2019 #12
And pedohpiles, being predators, tend to go where the prey exists. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #13
Yes, and...? MineralMan Nov 2019 #15
Institutions protect their own. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #17
And corrupt institutions protect corruption. MineralMan Nov 2019 #18
All such corrupt institutions? guillaumeb Nov 2019 #19
Bye, now... MineralMan Nov 2019 #21
Always best to leave when you cannot answer. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #22
Nope. I leave when the logic of the argument is absent. MineralMan Nov 2019 #23
Then in that spirit, delete your reply #18. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #24
What about, what about, what about!!! nt. Mariana Nov 2019 #28
Are you denying that child abuse exists there? guillaumeb Nov 2019 #31
And being an institution tha exists solely edhopper Nov 2019 #35
All humans are fallible. Even me. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #37
I didn't say it was edhopper Nov 2019 #38
And yet the RCC situation is unique. trotsky Nov 2019 #25
It is not uniquely a safe haven for pedophiles. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #26
What about, what about, what about, what about, what about !!! nt. Mariana Nov 2019 #29
Well that is an astoundingly dim argument. Voltaire2 Nov 2019 #30
If the oversight were effective, guillaumeb Nov 2019 #32
As I said, astoundingly dim. Voltaire2 Nov 2019 #33
Astoundingly dim is avoiding the obvious. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #34
You do realize no one is saying abuse is unique to the RCC. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 #39
"The religion of the abusers... is of no consequence to the abused child." trotsky Nov 2019 #41
mind boggling. edhopper Nov 2019 #36
But is it really? trotsky Nov 2019 #42
Yep edhopper Nov 2019 #43
It is unique in its size and philosophy, which enables and protects the abusers. trotsky Nov 2019 #40
A philosophy of child abuse? guillaumeb Nov 2019 #44
Don't be disingenuous. trotsky Nov 2019 #48
Every institution is unique. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #51
Quit trying to change the subject. trotsky Nov 2019 #54
It is you who prefer to severly limit the discussion so you can "prove" guillaumeb Nov 2019 #56
"Severly (sic) limit the discussion"? trotsky Nov 2019 #57
Sigh... Dorian Gray Nov 2019 #47
Exactly. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2019 #49
While I agree with your comments, guillaumeb Nov 2019 #50
I never said uniquely culpable. But when in discussion with the abuse Dorian Gray Nov 2019 #52
The reference was not to your own comments. guillaumeb Nov 2019 #53
Thank you for calling out his whataboutism attempts. n/t trotsky Nov 2019 #55
Business as usual at the Vatican. Nitram Nov 2019 #20
Wow. It seems as if Sky Daddy can't keep his people or 'instrument' on Earth... NeoGreen Nov 2019 #27
I live in BK Dorian Gray Nov 2019 #45

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
2. The depth and breadth of this scandal is remarkable.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 11:00 AM
Nov 2019

Foxes in the hen house, at the very least. Turn the entire investigation over to the law enforcement community.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
4. It's incredible.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 11:12 AM
Nov 2019

Under normal circumstances, what are the odds a single, random individual is a child abuser?

This is either a stunning fluke of probability, or the Church has a serious fucking problem.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
5. Clearly, it is the second thing.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 11:30 AM
Nov 2019

The problem is so widespread and universal that it is obviously an organizational norm. It cannot be fixed from inside the organization, in that case. That's my assessment, after all these years and all those abused children. Bring in the prosecutors and give them total access. They'll flush it all out.

Either that or shut the entire thing down.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
8. "It cannot be fixed from inside the organization"
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 01:11 PM
Nov 2019

That is precisely true, but also why the RCC will never try anything else. They have always viewed themselves as apart from and above ANY secular authority. That belief is a fundamental part of the RCC DNA. So no, it will never get fixed.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
11. In many ways, the RCC is organized perfectly for
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:16 PM
Nov 2019

sexual abuse by its clergy. The secrecy, the single gender makeup of the clergy, the excessive power held by priests, and the secondary, subservient role of women in the organization set up a perfect storm for sexual abuse of children. It's almost as though someone created the organizational structure for just such a purpose.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
6. Then again, maybe they are taking the Sgt. Stedenko approach
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 11:45 AM
Nov 2019

Who better to catch child rapists than a child rapist?

Or it could be they just absolutely don't give a fuck. And why would they considering they have so many child rape apologists working overtime to convince the rank in file and the public this is simply a matter of demonic infiltration and is in no way inherent to organized religion.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
46. Yes... The church needs to give any and all information
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 06:59 AM
Nov 2019

they have to outside law enforcement officials. Because any self-investigation looks like self-preservation. It's terrible.

I don't fully trust law enforcement to dole out justice for forty year old crimes, but at least they're independent and not self-serving.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 01:58 PM
Nov 2019

Who will watch the watchers?

No matter the institutional setting, any abuse is horrible. And covering up the abuse is equally horrible.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
12. One can be a watcher and/or the watched. In many cases
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:18 PM
Nov 2019

both are true. Some like to watch, besides.

And it's all doing the work of God, see, so there you are...

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
13. And pedohpiles, being predators, tend to go where the prey exists.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:36 PM
Nov 2019

Institutional cover ups are an integral part of the problem of predators existing in institutional settings.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. Yes, and...?
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:40 PM
Nov 2019

The RCC protects its own, even its predators. In so doing, it makes itself a hypocritical liar. All in the name of Jesus.

You do yours. I'll do mine and have none of yours, thanks.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
17. Institutions protect their own.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:55 PM
Nov 2019

It is human behavior, and sadly, not unique to any one class of humans.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
18. And corrupt institutions protect corruption.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 02:57 PM
Nov 2019

I did not say it was unique in any way. I did say that it is corrupt, however, and have said that many times.

It should be disbanded forthwith.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. All such corrupt institutions?
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 03:00 PM
Nov 2019

Including the family, the place where much abuse occurs?

And the school system as well?

And the military?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
22. Always best to leave when you cannot answer.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 04:07 PM
Nov 2019

I understand that these questions weaken your narrative, but they are obvious questions to ask.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
23. Nope. I leave when the logic of the argument is absent.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 04:08 PM
Nov 2019

Once that happens, there is no possibility of discussion.

edhopper

(33,208 posts)
35. And being an institution tha exists solely
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 08:11 PM
Nov 2019

to be in the service of God makes them no different than any criminal enterprise.
So appearantly, belief and living for God does not make anyone any better than a nonbeliever.
Why all this obsession with faith and sin and prayer when people involved are no better than those not?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
37. All humans are fallible. Even me.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 08:40 PM
Nov 2019

I do not expect anything different, but I do expect, or hope, that anyone with knowledge of a child abuser would report that knowledge to the authorities.

But people conceal things. Family members conceal abuse, institutional members do so as well.

As to the "criminal enterprise" rhetoric, the purpose of the RCC is not to abuse children, or to commit crimes, so your analogy fails.

edhopper

(33,208 posts)
38. I didn't say it was
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 09:55 PM
Nov 2019

The purpose of the GOP is not to enable treason, but that is what they do.
The commitment to God has not made them better thasn any other group.
So in a blind study, belief in God is ineffective in making a group or person better.
God has no positive effect.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
25. And yet the RCC situation is unique.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 04:21 PM
Nov 2019

Both in its extent (worldwide) and its lack of secular oversight.

But I understand why you would rather whatabout.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
26. It is not uniquely a safe haven for pedophiles.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 04:25 PM
Nov 2019

But I understand your need to promote your narrative.

Much abuse occurs in the family, which exists worldwide and has no effective secular oversight.

Child abuse is everywhere. The family, schools, scouting organizations, the military, and anywhere there are children and pedophiles.

Voltaire2

(12,626 posts)
30. Well that is an astoundingly dim argument.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 06:31 PM
Nov 2019

Much abuse occurs in the family, which exists worldwide and has no effective secular oversight.

Let’s start with families not having effective secular oversight. There most certainly is oversight of families, in particular with respect to sexual and physical child abuse, in just about every developed nation. In most countries an allegation of child abuse will be taken very seriously by the relevant secular authorities and acted on quickly. If the preliminary investigation indicates that the allegation has a basis in fact, steps are taken to protect the children and a criminal investigation is conducted.

What secular authorities don’t do is appoint one of the parents to investigate the other.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
34. Astoundingly dim is avoiding the obvious.
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 06:54 PM
Nov 2019

Child abuse is everywhere. The religion of the abusers, or lack thereof, is of no consequence to the abused child.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
39. You do realize no one is saying abuse is unique to the RCC.
Fri Nov 15, 2019, 08:29 AM
Nov 2019

What is more or less unique to the RCC is the systemic nature of said abuse.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
41. "The religion of the abusers... is of no consequence to the abused child."
Fri Nov 15, 2019, 09:07 AM
Nov 2019

It is when the religion promotes the notion that the priest class is above secular law.

But you never want to acknowledge that. I wonder why?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
42. But is it really?
Fri Nov 15, 2019, 09:09 AM
Nov 2019

Look at Trump defenders - they do the same thing. If confronted with his illegal behavior, they'll scream "But Obama! But Hillary! Benghazi! BUTTERY MALES!!!!!"

They can't defend Trump's unique and excessive corruption, so they flail wildly as if any kind of corruption, real or imagined, done by other politicians makes Trump's crimes no big deal. "Everybody does it."

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
40. It is unique in its size and philosophy, which enables and protects the abusers.
Fri Nov 15, 2019, 09:05 AM
Nov 2019

I understand why you do not want to talk about those issues, and would rather try to lump it under "everybody abuses."

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
48. Don't be disingenuous.
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 09:02 AM
Nov 2019

I've explained exactly why the RCC's abuse problem is unique, multiple times.

You've never, ever addressed ANY of my arguments, but instead just play this game over and over.

Let me know when you really want to discuss the issue.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
51. Every institution is unique.
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 06:26 PM
Nov 2019

So there is that.

Are you truly surprised that humans behave in this way no matter where they exist?

If so, why?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
54. Quit trying to change the subject.
Tue Nov 19, 2019, 09:12 AM
Nov 2019

The teachings and practices of your (former?) church help enable child abusers. By setting up the church hierarchy to be "above" secular law, they make the problem WORSE. Do you agree or disagree? I bet you won't answer. You'll just whatabout some more.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
56. It is you who prefer to severly limit the discussion so you can "prove"
Tue Nov 19, 2019, 04:00 PM
Nov 2019

a conclusion. Hardly an example of using the scientific method.

And this insistence on restricting the dialogue is present in your latest example of posing a question that is actually a statement of your own opinion.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
57. "Severly (sic) limit the discussion"?
Tue Nov 19, 2019, 04:31 PM
Nov 2019

You mean wanting to discuss the particular aspects of Religion in the Religion group?

Guilty as charged.

No, guillaumeb, it's YOU who wants to limit the discussion here. Fortunately you are terrible at it, and only end up making yourself look like a religious hypocrite.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
47. Sigh...
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 07:04 AM
Nov 2019

I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and a believer, so I'm going to say this with as much respect as I can muster.

We all know that abuse happens world wide.

The RCC is a holy institution and purports that it is directly descended from the apostles of Jesus.

Yet, we've historically enablied those abusers to continue their abuse. It is SHOCKING and infuriating.

We deserve all the intense heat we have gotten for it, and it's time to demand that we clean out our house.

When our community is seriously challenged by it's own history of culpability in child abuse, talking about other people doing it too doesn't help anybody.

I love my chuch. I love my community. I love Jesus. I love God. I love so much about my faith.

I hate that it's been corrupted by pedophiles, and I hate that the public is RIGHTFULLY enraged by it.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
52. I never said uniquely culpable. But when in discussion with the abuse
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 09:52 PM
Nov 2019

it is "whataboutism" to talk about how the rest of society does it, too.

That doesn't mitigate our responsibility to our church, our flock, and making reparations for what was done, ignored, enabled, and covered up.

The biggest threat do the RCC doesn't come from OUTSIDE the church. Most damage inflicted was from within.

I think it's really really important for us to remember and to have humility about it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
53. The reference was not to your own comments.
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 10:52 PM
Nov 2019

And it is not diversion to note that abuse and cover-ups are a constant. Diversion would be to note these things in an attempt to excuse them.

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
27. Wow. It seems as if Sky Daddy can't keep his people or 'instrument' on Earth...
Thu Nov 14, 2019, 05:55 PM
Nov 2019

...from harming children and/or covering up the crime(s).

Maybe this is all caused by a reliance on 'faith'.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
45. I live in BK
Mon Nov 18, 2019, 06:58 AM
Nov 2019

DiMarzio has always been beaurocratic. He doesn't have the personality of Cardinal Dolan. He's NYC's second banana bishop

Having said that, I was surprised at Mass yesterday. I expected our priest to ignore the accusation. But at the end of Mass he read a letter written by DiMarzio. DiMarzio asked that it be read during every single mass that weekend. It, of course, denied the accusations, but I was somewhat surprised that he was meeting the accusation head on.

So, there is that.

Hopefully there will be a real investigation and the truth will come to light. Only through the light of truth can the darkness be chased away. If the accuser was victimized by the Bishop, I hope he receives real restitution.

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