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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:11 PM

Rising atheism in America puts 'religious right on the defensive'

The US is increasingly portrayed as a hotbed of religious fervour. Yet in the homeland of ostentatiously religious politicians such as Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry, agnostics and atheists are actually part of one of the fastest-growing demographics in the US: the godless. Far from being in thrall to its religious leaders, the US is in fact becoming a more secular country, some experts say. "It has never been better to be a free-thinker or an agnostic in America," says Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the FFRF.

The exact number of faithless is unclear. One study by the Pew Research Centre puts them at about 12% of the population, but another by the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College in Hartford puts that figure at around 20%.

Most experts agree that the number of secular Americans has probably doubled in the past three decades growing especially fast among the young. It is thought to be the fastest-growing major "religious" demographic in the country.

Professor Barry Kosmin of Trinity College, who conducts the national Religious Identification Survey, believes up to a quarter of young people in the US now have no specific faith, and scoffs at the idea, prevalent in so much US media and culture, that the country is highly religious or becoming more so. "The trending in American history is towards secularisation," Kosmin said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/01/atheism-america-religious-right

66 replies, 8452 views

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Reply Rising atheism in America puts 'religious right on the defensive' (Original post)
cleanhippie Dec 2011 OP
Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #1
MarkCharles Dec 2011 #2
humblebum Dec 2011 #4
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #9
cleanhippie Dec 2011 #10
humblebum Dec 2011 #12
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #13
humblebum Dec 2011 #30
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #31
humblebum Dec 2011 #36
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #55
cleanhippie Feb 2012 #61
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #54
humblebum Feb 2012 #66
LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #17
humblebum Dec 2011 #37
cbayer Dec 2011 #38
EvolveOrConvolve Dec 2011 #39
humblebum Dec 2011 #42
EvolveOrConvolve Dec 2011 #49
humblebum Dec 2011 #50
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #57
LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #40
humblebum Dec 2011 #45
LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #51
cbayer Dec 2011 #52
humblebum Dec 2011 #53
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #58
humblebum Feb 2012 #63
MarkCharles Dec 2011 #41
humblebum Dec 2011 #43
MarkCharles Dec 2011 #44
humblebum Dec 2011 #46
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #59
humblebum Feb 2012 #62
humblebum Feb 2012 #64
GodlessHeathen Feb 2012 #56
humblebum Feb 2012 #65
cbayer Dec 2011 #11
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #14
cbayer Dec 2011 #16
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #18
cbayer Dec 2011 #21
Post removed Dec 2011 #23
cbayer Dec 2011 #25
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #28
cbayer Dec 2011 #33
cbayer Dec 2011 #15
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #19
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #20
cbayer Dec 2011 #24
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #26
cbayer Dec 2011 #27
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #29
cbayer Dec 2011 #35
Goblinmonger Dec 2011 #32
cbayer Dec 2011 #34
laconicsax Dec 2011 #47
cbayer Dec 2011 #48
skepticscott Feb 2012 #60
LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #22
rrneck Dec 2011 #3
LARED Dec 2011 #5
cleanhippie Dec 2011 #6
dmallind Dec 2011 #7
deacon_sephiroth Dec 2011 #8

Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:17 PM

1. If there is no god, everyone is godless

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:58 PM

2. I'm sure it puts many on the religious right on the..

 

defensive

Interesting of the article to point out that when religions were doing well, there was no need to put them out there so prominently in Republican politics. Now, of course, the tea baggers and religious ultra-conservatives like Bachmann, Perry, and even the Catholic fundies like Santorum and pseudo fundie Gingrich are out there trying to dominate the Republican field of candidates, against that front-runner Mormon guy, what's-his-name.

I wonder if it bothers some religious Democrats who post here that Jesus and religion are losing their appeal in America, as they are in the UK as well.

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Response to MarkCharles (Reply #2)


Response to humblebum (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 01:38 PM

9. How about if you give it a rest?

 

Seriously. I thought this was supposed to be a new attitude on DU3, but here you are spouting the same crap. I know you are going to hide behind obfuscation and doublespeak, but you are basically telling every non-believer on here who belongs to some organization (FFRF, American Atheists, etc) both engaged in "blather and ballyhoo" and "infamous." If ANY atheist on here said the same thing about religion (i.e. that is was all "blather and ballyhoo," people would lose their shit and posts would be deleted.

Can you just stop and actually engage in conversation rather than this clear crusade you have to stop any atheists from actually organizing? It gets pretty fucking old.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 02:25 PM

10. No, no, no, no, no! We should not encourage people to hide their christian values.

I, for one, welcome his posts. While I have stopped responding to them altogether, I think that the posts do far more for reason and rational thought than any of us could EVER do. They do more to highlight the true problem with religion in this country, why shut it down?

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 06:03 PM

12. I keep forgetting that part of that "new attitude" is that atheism should

 

not be criticized. You mention the "same crap" - I agree, the anti-christian, anti-religious rhetoric and ridicule hasn't changed one bit.

"If ANY atheist on here said the same thing about religion..."? - as if this never happens? So, am I to understand that religion is never criticized here?

"Clear crusade you have to stop any atheists from actually organizing?" - atheists have been organizing since long before my time, and where have I tried to stop them? Is criticism of an organization an attempt to stop the existence of that organization?

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Response to humblebum (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:40 PM

13. Same shitty attitude from you. Got it.

 

Don't think I ever said it shouldn't be criticized, but it would be nice if you stopped the broad-brush attacks and making claims that anytime atheists organize, bad things happen.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:22 PM

30. As usual, your statements are misleading. Nowhere have I said

 

"anytime atheists organize, bad things happen." However, I am very critical of organized atheism, precisely because of statements and actions. So quit acting as if this is a one-sided issue. Religion and Christianity, in general, are routinely condemned and criticized here, and you need to get used to rebuttals. If that bothers you, then consider yourself bothered. Nothing personal.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:24 PM

31. Still a broadbrush.

 

"I am very critical of organized atheism, precisely because of statements and actions" is pretty much the same as "anytime atheists organize, bad things happen."

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:37 PM

36. Call it whatever you will. I have commended atheists and atheist groups who engage in tolerance, but

 

too often ridicule is a stated method, and displays of condemnation are very common with some. No one should tolerate that.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #36)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:37 AM

55. I agree

So why do you ( and christians like you, I think you are a christian from what little I have read today) feel it is fine to threaten me with Hellfire? Why do you think it is ok to ridicule me, but I cannot ridicule you?

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #55)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:23 AM

61. The person you responded to has been blocked from this group.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:33 AM

54. I just Joined

I just joined this group, essentially to talk to you humblebum. I am guessing your a vietnam vet as was my brother (ist marine division) as am I (Army Engineer). I am not a democrat or a republican. I am an atheist, that is my political party. I am a member of the National Atheist Party, we are a 512 and growing.
Let me define myself so you and I are clear at the outset. I do not deny the existance of God. I cannot prove God nor can anyone else, niether can God be disproven. I am a militant Agnostic (I do not know and niether do you although you may well believe you do) and an anti-theist. I have no problem with moderate religious people who worship as they choose. I do have issue with people who want to enforce thier religious mores on others, who want to incorporate religion into school and government, and on christian military groups who deny promotion to soldiers who won't convert.
I have been silent about my beliefs and just lived my life for 25 years. One day a couple of years ago my 18 year old son, who is interested in politics went to a new politcal groups meeting, the Tea party. They were new and he wanted to hear what they were about. Having grown up with a veteran father who is also a history buff he knew what the original Tea partiers did. They wore Mohawks to disguise themselves in case they were seen, so he did the same.
When he went into my local town hall an 80 year old, self defined "good christian" woman spat in his face. The people there surrounded him pointing, calling him "infiltrator!" and "Spy!"
For me this was "the shot heard round the world" and since then I have become a public Atheist and an outspoken one as well.
Too long have I remained silent but no longer.

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:48 PM

66. Thank you for serving to both you and your brother.

 

Last edited Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Your religious beliefs or lack of them are your business, and yours alone. The incident with the 80yo lady and those around her, is regrettable and very unusual. I have never witnessed anything close to it. Sounds like something out of a bad cheap movie. Not saying it didn't happen, but it sounds like a Westboro documentary.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:55 PM

17. I am getting sick of this broadbrushing of all outspoken atheism as 'organized atheism'

Most outspoken atheists do not belong to any organized atheist group. Most organized, or semi-organized, atheist groups are not in cahoots with each other. The fact that some atheists write books, or even hold meetings, does not make them into some big, dangerous, 'infamous' conspiracy, as you sometimes seem to imply.

It's one thing to regard atheists as wrong or foolish. It's one thing to point out that some atheists are bigoted against religious people (some people will always be bigoted against people who believe differently from themselves). It's one thing to point out that religion is not the source of all evil, and that an atheist can be right-wing, nasty or stupid, just as a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Pagan can. But it's another thing to regard atheism as in some sense politically dangerous or sinister, or as part of some sort of evil conspiracy -which your posts often seem to imply.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:48 PM

37. Some of us are getting sick of the religious and Christianity-bashing too. And, I realize that not

 

all atheists belong to atheist organizations. Having said that, atheism is becoming more organized all the time, i.e. Atheist Alliance International, which is an umbrella group for MANY other organizations. And members of these groups produce and push anti-religious movies, books, television events, etc.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:50 PM

38. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me

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Response to humblebum (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:58 PM

39. I understand your point of view

But I vehemently disagree with it. You think modern organized atheism is dangerous but haven't posted any evidence to back up your claim. Can you?

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 09:19 PM

42. You specify "modern organized atheism." Usually, the response is that

 

organized atheism doesn't exist. It is difficult to say exactly what influence organized atheism has had on the several reported criminal acts apparently committed by atheists. Many of the most outspoken and prominent atheists have often expressed their opinions about religion that border on hatred, and are undoubtedly bigoted. And many of these people belong to atheist organizations or are commonly welcomed by atheist organizations. Maher, the late Christopher Hitchens, PZ Myers, etc. What are some of these crimes? Texas church burnings, The Giffords assassination attempt. Colorado church shooting. What effect did organized atheism have on these people, if any? It'll will always be debated. But, ridicule is often applauded. Hatred has been encouraged, verbally. Tell me. How does "modern organized atheism" differ from "old organized atheism?"

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Response to humblebum (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 29, 2011, 12:01 AM

49. I didn't say that modern organized atheism doesn't exist

It does exist. I just don't think it has the sort of militant underpinnings that you attribute to it.

None of the actions you submit have more than a peripheral association with atheism. Were you to use that standard, there would be few (if any) modern religions that would not be defined as "dangerous". Both the Democratic and Republican parties would be considered "dangerous". Hell, the Girl Scouts would be considered "dangerous".

Just curious - when a religious writer points out a difference they have with atheism, do you call it "hatred" or "bigotry" or "ridicule"? The line you use to define those attributes seems pretty fuzzy for religious folks, but far more strict for the godless. Why is that?

I see where you're going with the "old organized atheism", and that's a line you shouldn't cross. I'm fairly certain that accusing DUers of being murderers is against the community standards.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 29, 2011, 12:24 AM

50. First of all, I never said that you claimed that "modern organized atheism doesn't exist."

 

"None of the actions you submit have more than a peripheral association with atheism." - and how do you know this?

"when a religious writer points out a difference they have with atheism, do you call it "hatred" or "bigotry" or "ridicule"?" - That would depend on what is said. When I say that those terms are commonly used by atheists, I mean those exact words. Atheists have exhorted "hatred" and "ridicule" as methods of confronting religion.

And as far as "old organized religion" goes, you are the one who made the distinction.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #42)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:57 AM

57. Actions of One

The actions of one do not color an entire demographic. What about westboro Baptist church jkeering at the funerals of Dead soldiers?
What about the modern day witch burnigs in Kenya by "good christians", one of thier lead proponents is coming into Texas to go on a speaking tour here in America amongst fundamentalists.
Are you an honorable man? Do you stand steadfast against evil? I strive to and I see Christianity as evil.
The christian religion is extortion. The Christian God has a cosmic gun to the worlds head and says "I Love you, love me back, and me alone, and me above all else and obey me (or at least what these men tell you I order) OR I will torture you for all time in the most ghastly fashion imaginable.
This same God set man up from the begining, with perfect foreknowledge he put the tree in the garden knowing man would eat of it, then punished all humanity for the crime of 2, then demanded blood sacrifice of animals for hundreds of years, then upped the ante to a human (divine) sacrifice followed by the ritualized cannibalization of those remains on a weekly basis. This God is unable to forgive without blood(not omnipotent) and was unable to foresee the whole world becoming evil when he made it creating a need for the flood.(Not omniscient).
Like the Christians always say "hate the sin and not the sinner" I think the religion is evil and the people are duped. The idea on its face is ridiculous, if something appears to me to be ridiculous why would I not point that out? Is not pointing out ridiculousness ridicule? Christians often mock and ridicule atheists, why cannot atheists ridicule in return?
Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat, punished for the worlds "crimes". Would you allow another man to be tortured and slain for your crime? I would not but christians not only think this is good, it is the highest form of good, that is a ridiculous notion worthy of ridicule.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 09:05 PM

40. I don't bash religion or Christianity AT ALL

However, I do bash political anti-secularism and the concept that atheism is politically dangerous.

'members of these groups produce and push anti-religious movies, books, television events, etc.'

Just like members of other groups, or none, produce and push movies, books, television events, etc., expressing their opinions! Freedom of speech and association is an excellent thing! I wish more countries had something like your Bill of Rights.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:05 PM

45. I must say that I do respect your gentle nature, and it does come through in your posts often.

 

Democratic Underground is a political website and I know of no political event or forum that isn't at times bawdy and full of heated arguments and rising tempers.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 30, 2011, 06:33 PM

51. Thank you. But I have had far far less exposure to religious-right attitudes than the Americans on

the board, and therefore have less reason to be non-gentle.

Religious conservativism does not on the whole play nearly the same negative part in politics in Britain as it does in America (there are exceptions, some of which I've posted about; but they're rare).

I don't care what others believe; it's their right. But I do care if they use their beliefs to get us into a war/ plant bombs in the underground/ restrict women's reproductive rights/ conduct vile smear campaigns to defeat my MP in favour of a Tory/ support economic injustice as somehow divinely ordained. Few people in my experience have done these things, but a few have (and I've used examples from Protestants, Catholics and Muslims here). On the other hand, many religious people in Britain use their beliefs to fight in favour of social justice.

Anyway, I don't mind if you think atheists are stupid or wrong or deluded; but I do mind if you (or rather, not so much you personally, as larger, influential groups of people) consider atheists as some sort of evil conspiracy, to be resisted politically. To put it a bit more concretely: anyone who ever tries to prevent Ed Miliband, or any other Labour Party leader from coming to power, on the grounds that they're an atheist, is my enemy.

And, on a more personal level, when you compare atheists with Stalinists and Maoists - remember, *that's not just me you're talking about; it's my Mum, Dad and much of my family*! You can't expect me to accept it. It's not criticism; it's demonization. Nor can you justify it in terms of attacks that I'm made on Christians, because I haven't. It's only the religious right, and strong political anti-atheism, that I attack!

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 30, 2011, 06:37 PM

52. Well said, sir.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 31, 2011, 03:49 PM

53. I don't consider atheists to be "stupid or wrong or deluded" nor "some sort of evil conspiracy."

 

However, I do think that there are politically extreme atheists and groups of who are every bit as extremist politically as RW extremists and religious extremists.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #53)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:58 AM

58. NAP

We are hardly extremist but rather seek to represent all who are not represented by the fundamentalist right. We have one driving issue, the seperation of church and state.

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:25 PM

63. When you advocate the open use of ridicule for particular beliefs as

 

you have stated, you fail, "to represent all who are not represented by the fundamentalist right." And if you abandon the Democratic Party to start one that represents only a narrow faction, then the term "extremist" could possibly be applied.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 09:16 PM

41. "members of these groups produce and push anti-religious movies, books, television"

 

How horrible that people should simply exercise free speech and utilize 21'st century technology instead of launching more religious wars!!! How awful !

Those few hundred or a couple million technologically "organized" atheists are a real threat to the 3 or 4 billion religious believers on this planet, for sure.

Pushing logic and facts and "anti-religious" thinking, instead of thousands of year old myths or fantasies, this offends people..... why?

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Response to MarkCharles (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 09:28 PM

43. You are right, indeed. "How horrible that people should simply exercise free speech."

 

"Those few hundred or a couple million technologically "organized" atheists are a real threat to the 3 or 4 billion religious believers on this planet, for sure." Kinda appealing to numbers again, aren't you? Tell me. How many Chinese are atheists?

One thing that always amuses me about your statements is how purely biased they are (for lack of a better term) and I don't think you even realize it. Not everyone considers your "logic" to be logical, your "reasoning" to be reasonable, nor your "facts" to be factual.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:00 PM

44. Yup, facts about me and the Chinese are about as well known to you

 

as your knowledge of "organized" atheism among all other animal species on the planet.

The assertion almost all Chinese are atheists like me, that brings me a big chuckle, knowing you don't speak any variety of the Chinese languages, most of which have several words for their gods.

Christianity, Taoism, Buddhism, Hindu, Confucianism, all of these exist and are followed by the millions in China today.

I'm really hopeful we can somehow UN-HOOK you from a marriage to your fear fantasies that somehow, if Christianity is not encouraged, religion is dead in China, and this is because some people who simply do not believe are responsible for all of this loss of small Christian communities here and there in a nation of over a billion people. I'm sure you have never traveled widely there, to see their temples, maintained and visited daily, nor their cultural moments of spirituality exercised daily, by so many millions.

"Religion in China has been characterized by pluralism since the beginning of Chinese history. The Chinese religions are family-oriented and do not demand the exclusive adherence of members. Some scholars doubt the use of the term "religion" in reference to Buddhism and Taoism, and suggest "cultural practices" or "thought systems" as more appropriate names."

Probably more percentages of people in China call themselves religious and/or spiritual than those in America.
Somehow you have decided not to study Chinese culture, and to make up stuff you want to believe about a horrible government and what it has done to religious and spiritual beliefs in China, obviously you have never studied nor traveled widely in China, nor have you studied the last 4000-5000 year of history of that nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China

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Response to MarkCharles (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:20 PM

46. Where did I assert that, "almost all Chinese are atheists like..." you?

 

That's ridiculous. I think I only asked the simple question, "How many Chinese are atheists?" I really have no idea, but out of a nation of one and a half billion, that relatively recently declared itself to be state atheist, and is in the process of forcing state atheism onto another culture, I think it can safely be said that the numbers exceed "Those few hundred or a couple million technologically 'organized' atheists," to which you referred.

I am well aware of Chinese history and culture, and the fact that religion is growing in the country. And, I am also aware of Chinese history in the 20th century.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #46)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:04 AM

59. Actually

You did not just ask "how many chinese are atheist" You implied that it was a numbers issue and used china as a reference thereby implying that all chinese were atheists, or at least a majority of them. What you said was in response to someone making a point of atheists being the minority.
Incidentally I am not so sure that is true. People like myself who publically self define as Atheist are a decided minority, but there are a lot of people who only adhere to religion out of familial and socital pressures. Peer pressure keeps people in the Pews as much as fear does.

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:18 PM

62. IOW you have no facts to backup your claims. nt

 

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:33 PM

64. "You implied that it was a numbers issue and used china as a reference...

 

thereby implying that all chinese were atheists, or at least a majority of them." I implied no such thing. Again, you are making claims for which you have nothing but personal opinion.

"Peer pressure keeps people in the Pews as much as fear does." - pure unsubstantiated opinion.

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Response to humblebum (Reply #37)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:39 AM

56. Untrue

Most atheists are still closet atheists. Even so, so what? Since I am Atheist I cannot organize? So what if we do promote movies books etc, so do the Christians, look at the Passion, the Left behind series. What is good for the goose . . .

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Response to GodlessHeathen (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:37 PM

65. Who ever said that atheists couldn't organize, although it is commonly

 

stated that there is no "organized atheism?" And certainly organized atheism is not immune to criticism.

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Response to MarkCharles (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 02:33 PM

11. This is the kind of subthread that makes this group unpleasant.

It starts with a subtle attack in the form of conflating ultra-conservative religious groups with members here who identify themselves as religious Democrats.

It is then followed by an overt attack on organized atheism.

Next we have purely personal attack meant to defend atheists.

And finally the pile on, or attack by proxy, where one member attacks another by supporting the personal attack and adding to it.

It's a very familiar pattern here and very counter-productive. And it's probably not over.

I have no solution for it, but just wanted to highlight the pattern.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:42 PM

14. I refuse to see that I add to the problem at all.

 

humblebum made a clear broad-brush attack on atheists. I asked him to stop doing that and pointed out why it is problematic. To say I am part of the problem making this group unpleasant does not sit well with me at all.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:52 PM

16. All three of you are engaging in blatant personal attacks, IMO.

When you say things like:

spouting the same crap

same shitty attitude from you

it sure sounds like a personal attack to me.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:56 PM

18. Clearly you realize the history here

 

Clearly you realize that pointing out it is a broadbrush and asking him nicely to stop doesn't work.

So, when someone makes clearly broadbrushed and bigoted comments, what should I do in response? Seems to me like he is spouting crap (i.e. that any atheists organized are "infamous" and "ballyhoo"--don't know if that was his exact word). It is a personal attack to call crap, crap? It is a shitty attitude.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:09 PM

21. I am very aware of the history here and continue to hold

as a goal moving this group towards a more civil and welcoming place for all members that wish to participate. That absolutely includes atheists.

I also continue to believe that you can counter that kind of post without engaging in a personal attack.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #21)


Response to Post removed (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:14 PM

25. Because, from my perspective, it is a very two way street.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:17 PM

28. But I have made NO comments of the like

 

other than in response to this kind of stuff.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:26 PM

33. If this person pushes your buttons, why don't you just ignore them?

I could be wrong, but it seems that you all like engaging in this.

And as long as the juries are going to allow it to stand, there is really nothing more I can do but try to talk to you reasonably.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:43 PM

15. OK, I was hoping that shining some light on this might stop it, but since it hasn't,

I am going to alert and let juries decided.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:00 PM

19. You are about 10 minutes late

 

on alerting on humblebum's post.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:05 PM

20. Here's the jury results on what you called a clear personal attack

 

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While I disagree with the proposition, and would not use the two words indicated, they are mild compared to many of the vituperations against religion.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: The only reason I would leave this post unhidden would be to reserve the right to call religious doctrine blather and ballyhoo. Tempting, but I prefer that we don't trade insults and call it discussion.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Poster is expressing personal opinion. It's up to the readers to accept or reject. I see nothing offensive in the post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm not sure what "Organized atheism" is, have never heard any atheists blather more than non-atheists, don't know that "Organized atheism" is infamous either. I'd suggest the poster do some learning about atheism. The post is rude but don't see it as needing to be hidden.

I especially love Juror #2 who seems to think that atheists deserve it.

If one of my posts gets deleted for personal attacks and this clear broadbrush by humblebum is left to stand, I think I am done with R/T and probably DU3.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:12 PM

24. The jury also voted to leave laconicsax's post which I alerted.

The juries are obviously more tolerant of this than I am, lol.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:15 PM

26. Actually, that's good to hear. n/t

 

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:17 PM

27. And here are the results on the alert on your post. Some very interesting comments

in there. I particularly like the advice that you all just ignore each other.


JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:12 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Unless the whole subthread can be deleted, then I'll just leave it.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: The entire subthread needs to be deleted and any further instigation by any of them should result in a suspension. I'm tired of seeing Christians attack Atheists and vice versa on this board. Both sides do it and there needs to be a stop put to it now before it escalates.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This looks like its an ongoing feud between the 2 posters. I'm not sure if it's something to be banned but the posters maybe should try to ignore each other.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm voting to hide, but I'm doing so because of the personal attack contained in the post. I'm not nuts about the "multiple people alerted on" message.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It's a bit snarky; but it's replying to a very snarky post.

Thank you.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:22 PM

29. I don't have anyone on ignore and won't start now.

 

But I will promise you this, I will not reply to humblebum unless there is more of the same from him. At which point I will make a simple post identifying the bigotry and then alert on the same.

Will you promise to be as vigilant on calling out humblebum even when he isn't engaged by me and his post is just out there by its lonesome?

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:30 PM

35. In my first post in this thread, I called out all of you, including humblebum.

And I alerted on all of you, including humblebum.

I am interested in stopping these petty, snark fests and not in seeing one side or the other win.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:24 PM

32. See...promise kept.

 

Just did it up above.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:28 PM

34. And did it really well, imo.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:33 PM

47. I haven't posted in this thread until now.

 

Which post of mine did you alert on?

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Response to laconicsax (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:34 PM

48. My sincerest apology. I meant cleanhippie. My mistake.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:08 AM

60. Perhaps now you can also see the need

 

to quote certain people's exact words back to them when responding, given that some here are so fond of answering criticism by the dodge, "I never said EXACTLY 'X Y Z', so your criticism is invalid."

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Response to MarkCharles (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:09 PM

22. I disagree that there is much relationship between how 'well' religions are doing, and their

association with right-wing politics.

Possibly the fact that the Republican frontrunner belongs to a religious minority is bringing out the fundie Right even more than normal. But I think that religious right attitudes in the USA stem very largely from right-wing politicians trying to co-opt certain religious believers; particularly in connection with Reagan's 'Southern Strategy'.

In the UK, the much less numerous but still troublesome Christian right seems to reflect (1) an increasing collaboration between the Tory Right and American Republicans; and (2) right-wing rebellions against the mainly relatively liberal church leadership in the UK. Also, there are some people who think that religion is a useful tool for enforcing authoritarian morality and social and economic conservativism (400 years ago this perhaps reached its zenith in the doctrine of the 'Divine Right of Kings'). In the UK, there are indeed a number of pundits who are prepared to admit that they themselves are not Christian believers, but still value Christian traditions as a means of enforcing old-fashioned 'morality'; I suspect that this may also be true in America, but such people would be less likely to admit their own nonbelief. However, there are also genuine religious extremists in the UK: both Christian and Muslim.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:26 PM

3. Best news I've seen for a while.

Maybe we're finally burning out on those idjits.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:39 PM

5. Interesting

 

The article states

At the meeting, members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) will hear speakers celebrate successes they have had in removing religion from US public life and see awards being presented to noted secularist activists.

From the FFRF website the goal is;

What is the Foundation's purpose?

The purposes of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism.


http://ffrf.org/faq/about-the-foundation/what-is-the-foundations-purpose/

Removing "religion from US public life" is very different than "promot{ing} the constitutional principle of separation of state and church". They seem to have a hard time discerning the difference.






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Response to LARED (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:47 PM

6. I think that they are referring to Government when they say "public".

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Response to LARED (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:15 PM

7. Amazing! A journalist got something wrong about atheism! What a surprise. nt

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 12:09 PM

8. Good,

perhaps if they stay on the defensive they'll have less time on thier hands to be offensive

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