Worshipper rips out both eyes in Mass with his BARE HANDS

[cleanhippie]

Churchgoers were left stunned after a man tore out both his eyeballs in the middle of a priest's sermon at Sunday Mass in a scene that resembled a horror film.

Parishioners in Viareggio, near Pisa, in northern Italy, could only watch as one of their number calmly stood up and carried out the horrific self-mutilation in front of them.

Aldo Bianchini, 46, who was born in Britain but has lived in Italy most of his life, is believed to have suffered from voices.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044605/Horrific-scenes-British-born-worshipper-tears-eyes-Mass-BARE-HANDS.html#ixzz29sx1jMBd

Yes, the man is/was suffering a mental breakdown. I posted this because had the voices he heard told him to give everything he owned to charity, he would be hailed as a good christian following gods word. See what I am getting at?

[2on2u]

1. The voices said..... lend me your eyes?? n/t

[LuvNewcastle]

2. Matthew 18:9

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

[geckosfeet]

3. Wow. Talk about an Oedipus complex.

[struggle4progress]

4. We discussed this when it happened, last year:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=306744&mesg_id=306744

IIRC you participated in that thread, in which it was established that he had been diagnosed as mentally ill, but had stopped taking his medications:

Viareggio, si strappa gli occhi in chiesa: «Me l'ha detto una voce, ora mi curate?»

... The man had been under treatment for a long time for mental problems but had decided himself not to take the prescribed medications. He was seen privately by a psychiatrist and had regular checks in the local health clinics. He was born in England but has lived in Viareggio with his elderly mother ... Surgeons sutured wounds after the man was admitted in the department of psychiatry ...

http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo.php?id=165046
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=306744&mesg_id=306885

It's a sad story

[cleanhippie]

7. It is sad, but my point still stands.

When it happened or if we discussed it is irrelevant.

On edit: It looks like my one comment last year is pretty much what I dais this time...

Sure, we can nearly all agree that this is mental illness, but where does religious devotion stop and mental illness begin?

[struggle4progress]

10. Nobody but you even pretends to thinks this was normal behavior

You apparently found the story so delicious you could hardly wait to try to reboot it

[cleanhippie]

18. Feel free to show me where I said this was normal behavior.

And until you mentioned it, I thought it was recent.

[struggle4progress]

20. The Daily Mail article is dated October 2011, and you posted in the R/T thread on this back then,

I think I don't owe much credence in your claim "I thought it was recent"

[cleanhippie]

24. So you admit I never said it was normal behavior. Great, thanks.

[struggle4progress]

27. You claim to be unable to distinguish between a poor man, who blinds himself after skipping

his psychiatric medication, and persons engaged in ordinary religious observance

[cleanhippie]

31. So you admit that I never said it was normal behavior. Great, thanks.

Last edited Sun Oct 21, 2012, 02:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Was Abraham just a poor man who skipped his meds too? Or was that "ordinary religious observance?"

[humblebum]

17. So if an atheist heard voices a plucked out his eyes, would you ask

"Where does atheism stop and mental illness begin?" What a ridiculous statement! Mental illness has little to do with religion.

[DavidL]

28. Except that seeing visions, hearing the voice(s) of God or

angels, or feeling an overpowering feeling, or "acting only upon one's true beliefs despite a complete lack of evidence", are identical in character and behavior, be they events of a religious person's life or in the lives of those suffering from a severe form of psychosis.

Sometimes, it's difficult even for a trained psychiatrist to discern the difference in his/her patients between someone who feels religiously inspired and someone who actually is hearing voices or seeing visions, especially if the patient is confounding the illness with various "secondary gain" from his similarly religious peers.

To date, in my years on this planet, I have never heard about, nor read about an atheist tearing his eyes out, self-mutilating, or engaging in any other self-destructive act solely because he claimed no belief in a god.

I am sure some people who are atheists suffer a bout of psychosis, sometime in their lives, hear voices, or see visions, but they probably don't associate those voices or visions with their atheism; they are more likely to feel that they are, indeed, quite ill, and thus seek treatment.

By contrast, religious beliefs and over 2000 years of religious literature and folklore, from the Bible and elsewhere, continues to cloud the issue for many suffering a psychosis, making it hard for them to know IF they are really ill and in need of medication.

Most anti-psychotic medications have only been available during the last half century. Who knows how many people over the last 2000 years have self-destructed while suffering a psychosis, thinking they were following along with the wishes of their particular version of a god's personal message to them.

[humblebum]

39. "I have never heard about ... atheist...."

Last edited Sun Oct 21, 2012, 02:46 PM - Edit history (1)

That's not the point here. The point is that mental illness is mental illness regardless of religious inclination and hearing voices is not restricted to religious believers by any means. There is an agenda being pursued here by someone who regularly engages in such anti-religious activities.

Also, there are many studies linking religious belief to positive mental health.

[DavidL]

46. there are many studies linking religious belief to positive mental health

Perhaps that's true, I haven't seen any that deal with serious mental illness being PREVENTED by religious belief.

Perhaps it is also, (thankfully), true that only a small percentage of human beings actually suffer a serious psychotic break in their lifes, (less than 10%, probably less than 5% who actually have a full psychotic break, but many of those 5% who suffer multiple bouts of the illness during their lifetime).

Mental illness, like mental retardation, is an organic brain condition, not the result of religious belief, and in most cases, genetic makeup of the mentally ill plays as large a role as genetic causes of mental retardation, (although some psychoses can be the result of drug or alcohol use or from a traumatic brain injury).

My point is that some of the symptoms of a serious mental illness often reflect claims we have seen in religious people, voices, visions, messages, delusional or magical thinking in the face of actual facts. These similarities are not incidental, and they have large areas of interplay with religious literature, Christian, Jewish, and other religions as well.

Did you intentionally ignore how perhaps millions of people over the course of the last few thousand years may have suffered a vry serious psychotic mental illness and may have believed that their god was driving them to do something, kill themselves, kill their family or their enemies? We still have cases of that happening today in our own nation, a man who kills his wife or child and thought someone told him to do so, but, thankfully, they are more rare than in the past, due to modern medicine.

Perhaps it's easier to talk about that one single aberrant, mentally ill man in Italy a little while back who gouged his own eyes out in church than it is to discuss the dozens of wars and hundreds of thousands of suicides and murders where someone claimed to be justified in their actions by their religious beliefs, or worse, because they really thought their god told them to do those deeds. I'm not even going to bring up the hundreds or thousands of priests over the centuries who justified pederasty through some twisting of religious thought. As we know today, mental illness is a real and largely a treatable condition, as real and treatable as diabetes. And we also know that pederasty is largely still unable to be treated successfully, pederasts tend to remain pederasts throughout their lives, and we see a large religious institution, perhaps the largest (and certainly the richest), in the world, still refusing to come to grips with the full extent of that non-treatable condition among a small but significant percentage of their own clergy.

Now tell me again how religious folks enjoy better mental health! (Talk about delusional thoughts!)

[humblebum]

50. The percentage of child sexual abuse for public school teachers is almost equal to

that of Catholic priests. Mental illness is not dependent upon religion. Was religion the cause of Nietzsche's mental illness or the atheist who shot Gabby Giffords? No one is denying anything. And there is most definitely an agenda here.

[humblebum]

51. There are also many reputable Christian counselors and psych professionals. nt

[DavidL]

58. Oh, PLEEZE, Michele Bachmann's dear hubby must have

escaped your purview, of the "many reputable Christian counselors", including, at last count, for the 1900's alone, over 1000 priests, worldwide, in the Roman Catholic church, found to have engaged in pederasty. Their tens of thousands victims enjoy such wonderful mental health.

The agenda here, dear poster, is to point out the utter hypocrisy of claiming that religion has anything at all to do with SOUND mental health, or that it has any power whatsoever over people who are afflicted with one mental illness or another. Be it psychosis, hearing and seeing things, (THAT one keeps getting reflected in the literature over thousands of years), or simply the pederasty that the institution of un-natural yet long and historically maintained male-dominance and forced celibacy over many hundreds of years invites.

Two men open fire on a 14 year old girl in Pakistan last week, claiming their religion forbids women from eating the fruit of knowledge.
Yet another priest in St Louis goes on trial next week, accused, in his 60's, of fondling dozens of adolescent boys 20-30 years ago.

Tell me how religion makes mental health so much more abundant when people like these few, and historically thousands, use their religious privilege to engage in their criminal acts! Mental health? Religion has nothing to offer, and lots to hide away when it comes to mental health, now, and over at least the last 300 centuries.

[humblebum]

67. I was right about the agenda thing. But the evidence put before you

is indisputable.

[DavidL]

68. The "evidence put before you"? (me?) Michele Bachmann?

She has more power than you do, unless, of course, you are also a House member.

NO? You only post here on DU?

I don't think you're going to get many votes to become a Congressperson.

Do you have anything ELSE to offer as to your power to influence legislation more than Michele does?

I didn't think your brand of Christianity was all that powerful. Compared to Michele's that is. Where am I wrong in my assumptions?

[humblebum]

69. Kinda gettin' out there a little, aren't you? nt

[trotsky]

48. I noticed that no one wants to address your actual question.

Seems to be a common pattern in this group. The tough questions are ducked, and red herrings are presented instead.

[cleanhippie]

54. It's expected.

What I find most amusing is how participants can take a clear issue, dump mud all over it, then complain how complicated and cloudy the issue is.

It would be funny except for how sad it is.

[LARED]

55. The actual question is just about unanswerable as

what constitutes religious devotion and what constitutes mental illness are both highly subjective terms and rarely related to each other. BTW, the fact that this OP purposefully conflate mental illness and faith is not lost on anyone either.

You like tough questions so why don't you take a shot at an answer.

[trotsky]

57. Well I know you have a history of punting on the tough questions.

So I'm not going to bail you out on this one either.

You think religious belief is valid, you answer the question. Or insult me. Your choice.

[LARED]

60. No I have a history of avoiding questions with no answers. nt

[trotsky]

62. "Where does religious devotion stop and mental illness begin?"

That's the question. You claim it has no answer? So there's no telling between the two whatsoever?

What a confusing, scary world you must live in.

[LARED]

63. To clarify; As framed in this thread there is no answer

The OP was about an extreme case of mental illness that was used as a springboard to conflate religious faith with mental illness. No one said there was no way to tell the two apart when at the extremes.

If you have a way to get a framework around the subject of mental illness and a supposed relation to religious devotion feel free to start a thread where people can discuss the subject in good faith.

[trotsky]

66. So there IS an answer, if the mental illness is "extreme" enough?

Otherwise they are indistinguishable?

[LARED]

70. Are you always this boring?

As I stated start a new thread that is not based on the notion that religious beliefs are a mental illness. Otherwise this discussion is over.

[2ndAmForComputers]

71. As opposed to starting a thread based on the notion that atheism is a mental illness? That's OK?

Oh, wait... it isn't!

I almost regret having alerted on that, it prevented you from answering the question I made in the very last post (#37) there. Would you mind answering it here? We're curious.

[trotsky]

72. Do you always argue via personal attacks?

I guess so.

[Applan]

5. Bet he regretted doing this shortly afterwards

nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. Keep selling it.

.

[cleanhippie]

8. Selling what?

[JohnnyRingo]

9. Since it's an older story

Too soon?

[TheMadMonk]

12. Not loud or often enough. IIRC from CSI or similar...

...it's a not unknown religious mania.

[Auntie Bush]

11. How can so many people believe this stuff...

In the Bible a passage from the Gospel of St Matthew, Jesus tells his disciples: 'If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.

'It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.'

[madrchsod]

13. how? because they take passages like this as the literal truth.

there`s a whole lot of people who are just plain dumb when it comes to the history of different beliefs in the world. i guess when one thinks the world is only 8000 yrs old it`s really hard to convince them of anything.

[rug]

14. You actually cut and paste a year old story about a schizophrenic to try to connect it to religion?

That is so dishonest and so desparate. It is more insulting to mental patients than to any religionist.

Doctors said that before the surgery Bianchini had told them he had 'heard voices' telling him to tear out his eyes and Dr Gino Barbacci said: 'In all my 26 years of service I have never seen anything like this before.

Do you think these auditory hallucinations come from religion? Did you actually type this, "where does religious devotion stop and mental illness begin" as a legitimate question? Do you for a single moment actually believe this is based on religious belief? Do you know what a command hallucination is? Do you understand the etiology of mental illness? More important, do you know what schizophrenia does to people and those who love them?

Let me tell you about one I represented. She was a middle-aged divorced woman living with her mother. She was diagnosed for many years. Her illness progressed, she became noncompliant and she remained untreated. She experienced auditory and visual hallucinations. When she had her psychotic break she was rocking herself in a chair. She heard sounds and looked across the room at her typewriter. She looked over and saw the keys hitting the paper, spelling over and over, "kill her". She got up, walked into her mother's room and repeatedly stabbed her. When she finished, she went back to her room and took the paper from her typewriter. She returned to her mother's body and crammed the paper as far up her vagina as she could reach. When the police came and the body was finally examined, the paper was removed. It was blank.

BTW, there was a crucifix over each of their beds. That must be it.

This is truly a disgusting post. I thought you grew past this kind of shit.

[LARED]

15. 'See what I am getting at?' ...... No.

I posted this because had the voices he heard told him to give everything he owned to charity, he would be hailed as a good christian following gods word.

Ok

If the voices told him to molest children he would be viewed as a sick monster.

If the voices told him to work at a soup kitchen he would be hailed as a humanitarian.

If the voices told him to stand on the street corner and expound that pod people people are taking over the world , some may think it performance art, some may think he's a harmless nutcase.

There is no relation between mental illness and faith no matter how hard you try to pretend.

[cordelia]

16. This.

Plus it's a year old and been covered.

[cleanhippie]

19. What was it when god told Isaac to kill his child?

A test of faith or mental illness?

[LARED]

21. Are you equating God with voices in his head? nt

[mr blur]

22. Don't you? How else do you get your instructions?

"Other ways of knowing", perhaps.

[LARED]

23. My instructions? Care to expand

Last edited Sun Oct 21, 2012, 09:34 AM - Edit history (1)

on that?

[cleanhippie]

25. Isn't that what Isaac heard, god's voice telling him to kill his child?

So was that god or mental illness?

[LARED]

26. According to scripture, yes it was God's voice. nt

[cleanhippie]

32. So what's the difference between mental illness and hearing gods voice, when both tell you to kill?

[LARED]

40. It's a pretty simple concept

Scripture states Moses heard God voice. (as in an audible voice) It is a matter of faith that scripture is stating a true fact. If God told Moses to kill that was what God wanted him to do as a test of faith. (please don't make the mistake that I believe God is an all loving entity that would never do such a thing, that's scriptural hogwash)

Mental illness is believing you hear voices. Voices in your head.

This will get pointless rather quickly as you do not believe in God, you believe Moses and the bible are myths or made up stories. To you it's all made up and there is little or no difference between a mentally disturbed man and a believer.

[cleanhippie]

42. No one else but Moses and Abraham heard the voice talking to them.

The voice was in their head. And you said...

Mental illness is believing you hear voices. Voices in your head.

I find it interesting that you think Moses and Abraham (earlier I said it was Isaac, but that was Abraham's son he was supposed to kill. My mistake) were, in fact, mentally ill.

Does the same applies to anyone and everyone who ever heard god talking to them, telling them to do something or act in a certain way?


Which begs the question, How many people base their lives on the stories told by the mentally ill?

[LARED]

47. And you know this tidbit how?

You don't even believe Abraham existed, yet you are telling me you know the details of his experience recorded by Moses. another guy you don't believe existed.

[cleanhippie]

49. You, my friend, are sidestepping the question.

I urge you to go back and address what I stated in my last post. After that, we can move on to who may or may not have actually existed.

[LARED]

52. Which question? I thought I answered your questions nt

[cleanhippie]

53. The two sentences that end with question marks. Start with those.

[LARED]

56. Ok

I find it interesting that you think Moses and Abraham (earlier I said it was Isaac, but that was Abraham's son he was supposed to kill. My mistake) were, in fact, mentally ill.

Does the same applies to anyone and everyone who ever heard god talking to them, telling them to do something or act in a certain way?

I never said Moses, or Abraham was mentally ill. You should try to read what I said.

From a theological perspective anyone claiming to hear God audible voice today (in their head) might be mentally ill or just very imaginative or as some believe are actually hearing God. (I don't hold to that particular view)

Which begs the question, How many people base their lives on the stories told by the mentally ill?

I imagine quite a few. Lots of them having nothing to due with religion. Nietzsche comes to mind as a very influential force that turned out to be not the most mentally stable guy in the room.

[cleanhippie]

64. You continue to dodge.

When you are ready to actually address te topic at hand, let me know.

[LARED]

65. Not clear who's dodging here. Perhaps you need to restate the topic at hand, as I answered

your questions. If you do not like my answers that would be your problem.

[Marrah_G]

74. Well...

How does one differentiate between hearing voices and hearing the voice of God? I mean is there some way to know it's really God and not your mental illness?

[DavidL]

29. "There is no relation between mental illness and faith" except

that the behavior of the faithful and those with mental illness can sometimes be similar.

I am not saying the faithful are mentally ill, except that sometimes people who are faithful suffer mental illness.

When they do suffer so, diagnosis and humane psychiatric treatment is in order, not more religion.

[rug]

30. The behavior of the faithless and those with mental illness can sometimes be similar.

I am not saying the faithless are mentally ill, except that sometimes people who are faithfless suffer mental illness.

When they do suffer so, diagnosis and humane psychiatric treatment is in order, not more faithlessness.

See how easy it is to be fatuous?

One has nothing to do with the other.

[cleanhippie]

33. When faithlesness becomes a method for treating mental illness, your point will be valid.

But since no one uses "faithlessness" to treat mental illness, your point is bunk.

[rug]

34. The topic is cause not treatment.

Speaking of bunk, read your OP.

[cleanhippie]

35. The topic is mental illness.

Speaking of bunk, read your bible. Its full of people hearing voices...

[rug]

36. Your topic is that religion causes mental illness.

Before you embarass yourself further, read the DSM, any edition.

[cleanhippie]

37. Causes? No.

I'm trying to learn how to differentiate between the two.

For example, in the OP, a man heard voices telling him tear out his eyes. In the bible, Isaac heard a voice telling him to kill his son.

The man in the OP, we can all agree, is mentally ill. Isaac is celebrated and put up as the standard for passing a test of faith, not pitied for being mentally ill.

[rug]

38. That was Abraham not Isaac.

In the 4000 years since Abraham, medicine has learned how to describe mental illness, identify its symptoms and many of its causes.

Pull a Frist and describe Abraham's illness and symptoms.

Medically, your thesis is a fail.

Now, shift gears and try some scholarship to determine what exactly that story is about.

Unless you prefer to stay put, and keep typing: Abraham heard voices; a man in a church 4000 years later heard voices; Abraham was going to kill his son; this man in fact blinded himself. Ergo, religion is a form of mental illness.

It's stupid.

[cleanhippie]

41. Oh, we agree that it is stupid.

It is stupid to try and kill your son because you heard a voice telling you to do so. Others feel that is the benchmark of faith, ergo, not stupid.

The part I can't let go of is the hypocrisy.

[rug]

43. The best cure for hypocrisy is knowledge.

Mental illness is deadly serious but it is fortunately well-documented and decently understood. It is not hard, at least for a clinician, to distinguish psychosis from religious experience. They are two different things.

As far as Abraham and Isaac are concerned, it is a didactic story intended to convey a message. I don't particularly like the message of complete submission to the will of God even to the point of killing your child, but I don't see it as a poster for the effects of mental illness, assuming the story is literally true. The notion of hearing voices had a much different meaning three milennia ago than it does now.

I understand your point but it's a flat one. The comparison is inapt.

If you really want to distinguish between the two, read William James who as a psychologist famously wrote on the varieties of religious experience. In the meantime here's an essay on James, Abraham and Isaac. It's pure philosophy with some theology but then, philosophy is nothing if not a tool to discern difference.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_speculative_philosophy/v013/13.2paulsen.html

[cleanhippie]

44. "The notion of hearing voices had a much different meaning three milennia ago than it does now."

Only when it comes to hearing religious voices, I'm afraid. We can pretend that most of the faithful do not think of the story of Abraham (along with the other stories in the bible) as literal, but as metaphor, but that would be lying to ourselves.

[rug]

45. Not really. Along with dreams and angels, that was a common story-telling device then.

Literalism and its prevalence is another subject. I hate to see anyone fall into it, present company included.

[LeftishBrit]

59. Horrible story

But I don't see that it is saying much about religion. Nonreligious people also develop mental illnesses, hear voices and can act in self-destructive ways.

If someone claims that they hear voices telling them to give everything they own to charity, this might also be seen by many as a sign of mental illness (indeed I am sure that, for example, a number of wills are contested as having been made under conditions of 'mental incapacity', on just such grounds). Giving everything to charity out of a sense of moral or religious duty, or because you strongly believe in a cause, is different from hearing voices.

In any case, giving to charity is a constructive thing to do, whereas blinding yourself is not - and this does not depend on religion.

[dimbear]

61. Far more common and important: self-castration, etc.

Since the days when Origen made it famous, this has dogged the Christian community, and various offshoot sects. A weird variant persisted in Russia into the early 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

Horrific fallout of the supposed suggestion to make themselves eunuchs for the Lord.