Churches offering concealed-carry weapons training to attract members

[spin]

Note cross posted from the Gun Control & RKBA (Group) as suggested by rrneck.

WHAT WOULD JESUS SHOOT?

Churches offering concealed-carry weapons training to attract members

By Justin Rocket Silverman Sunday, November 25, 2012



MARENGO, Ohio — Salvation isn’t automatic — but it might be semiautomatic.

In an effort to increase membership, a number of U.S. churches — including the Church of Christ congregation in this rural village 30 miles north of Columbus — are offering an unconventional public service: Concealed weapons training.

“Church has done a good job with coffee klatsches or whatever, but we haven’t really reached out to guys,” said Jeff Copley, a preacher at the church. “And guys in Morrow Country, they shoot and they hunt.”

Hundreds of students have enrolled in the 10-hour course, which meets the state requirements for earning a concealed weapons permit. The training includes two hours on a church member’s private shooting range.

***snip***

The Marengo church launched its program several years ago and was likely among the first in the country to offer concealed weapons training. But from Texas to North Carolina, a smattering of congregations have recently followed suit, as ministers seek to capitalize on local enthusiasm for gun culture and demand for carry permit classes to expand their flocks.
http://www.thedaily.com/article/2012/11/11/news-concealed-carry-church/

Many people disagree with allowing concealed carry inside a church and some states do not allow it. I rarely go to church (usually for weddings, etc.) but when I do, I legally carry. I see no major problems with those who faithfully follow any religion owning firearms for self defense and even legally carrying them in public.

Still I am sure that many will disagree with my opinion and feel it would be an interesting topic for discussion in this group.

[patrice]

1. I have suspected this for some time. "Fellowship" encompasses whatever you want it to. nt

[hrmjustin]

2. Jesus was NOT in favor of using weapons.

[rrneck]

4. Nobody ever accused me of being a bible scholar but

http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm

"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

[hrmjustin]

8. I said using. He never said anything about being armed.

[rrneck]

13. Did he think it would be used for a door stop?

Or raw material for plow shares?

[hrmjustin]

17. Jesus was not for using weapons. Read the Holy Gospels!

By the way it is ok with me if you disagree my friend! I am for responsible gun ownership.

[rrneck]

20. And I think it's always wrong to kill, every time no matter why.

Christ's message of salvation through sacrifice is, to me, a poetic analogy for the foundation of civilized behavior befitting the prince of peace.

Nevertheless, he did instruct someone to go buy a sword with the clear implications of its intended function.

[hrmjustin]

23. I you feel the need to arm I will not challenge that! Be careful my friend!

God bless!!!

[rrneck]

26. I dont carry a gun.

I own a few, but I haven't been to the range in forever.

As much as we would like to conduct ourselves with kindness and compassion, the complexities of the human condition sometimes will not allow it. We have hearts. We have minds. But we also have canine teeth.

Like I said, I'm no theologian. Far from it. But from what I understand every sacred text concedes the need for violence. That's not to say it's an endorsement, but an awareness of the realities of life in an uncertain world. To my mind, that concession serves to help legitimize those texts because of their attachment to reality.

[hrmjustin]

28. When the revolution comes you will protect me!

[rrneck]

32. I appreciate your confidence but

in the words of Richard Pryor,

"Which way you gonna run?"
"Why"
"I don't wanna run over your ass."

Or perhaps more appropriately from the movie Lion in Winter:

Geoffrey: "You chivalric fool. As if the way one fell down mattered."
Richard: "When the fall is all there is, it matters.

[hrmjustin]

33. Bull!!! You are goin to be with me in the revolution

[rrneck]

40. Will there be cookies? nt

[spin]

31. I would say that to kill an attacker in legitimate self defense is justified. ...

However murder is never justified.

You shall not murder

You shall not kill sometimes translated as You shall not Murder, NIV Thou shalt not kill (LXX ?ὐ ????ύ????, translating Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ , is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1] specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17.

The imperative is against unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt. The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also allows for justified killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

[rrneck]

39. To my mind legal and right are two different things.

I'm not a particularly optimistic guy, but I feel I have to believe in the sanctity of human life under any circumstances. I have to believe that even those who would do me harm deserve to live no matter what they have done or what they are trying to do to me.

I would add one rule to the four rules of gun safety:

Never judge a man with a gun in your hand.

You fight like you train. For me that means going into a fight with the objective of keeping everyone alive. But that's my choice based on my experiences and what I know about myself. I can't make that call for anybody else. Nor would I if I could. A confrontation involving deadly force is a black hole that we all ultimately have to face alone. It's up to each of us to decide how we go in because that will determine who we are when we come out the other side. At least that's the way it seems to me.

But all in all the laws regarding homicide are, generally speaking, fair and just, which makes those who abide by them the same as far as I'm concerned.

[spin]

41. Like you I have absolutely no desire to ever have to kill another person ...

even in legitimate self defense.

However if absolutely necessary I will try to use a weapon to stop an attack which could result in serious injury or death to me or another person. Hopefully I will not kill the attacker but will be able to stop the attack.

If you own a firearm for self defense you have to ask yourself if you could actually shoot another person if you had no other choice knowing that it might lead to his serious injury or death.

Many people would be unwilling to do so and I admire them. I differ as I have asked myself this question and I feel that I could. That in no way makes me superior to those who could never shoot another person. Fortunately I have never found myself in such a situation and I hope and pray that I will live out my time here on earth and never have to make that decision.

Still, based on my experiences in the past, I feel I am capable of using a firearm for self defense if truly necessary. If I had ANY doubt I would not have a loaded firearm available for self defense. Only a fool would try to use a firearm for self defense if he/she was unwilling to pull the trigger.

I also realize that if I ever do use a firearm I will probably suffer serious psychological trauma and have to seek professional help. Therefore I will try to use my situational awareness to avoid dangerous situations and if I find myself in a situation that threatens to turn violent. I will do my best to defuse the situation and walk away even if it makes me look like a coward.

[rrneck]

44. I used to be a helluva salesman.

Till I found out what a horses ass I was. I discovered that the objective of sales was to get the money. Forget customer service. That was just embroidery for me. There might be others who can be good people and good salesmen, but not me. When the objective is clear, nothing else matters.

After I learned how to make art, the same held true. The objective is clear. The standard against which I am measured is hanging in the Met. I'll likely never achieve that standard, but that doesn't make it go away.

I would like to think I'll bring that attitude to an event that is even less likely to happen than a one man show at the Tate. The objective is to not kill anybody. But I can still talk a pretty good game, make some pretty good art, and put seven rounds in your chest in three seconds.

But that approach is based on my life experience and personality. As they say, YMMV. That's why I have little patience with cookie cutter ideologies that seem to easily define others, whether they concern gun policy or religion.

[tblue]

51. IT'S A SWORD!

So carry a sword. Who cares?

[rrneck]

52. You apparently.

Last edited Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:31 PM - Edit history (1)

The text is unambiguous. The implications of the text are obvious. What wisdom would you draw from it?

[Vietnameravet]

12. But a careful reading of that passage

indicates it was part of the Roman sword and dagger buy-back program which Caesar was instituting..
Its a fact!!

[spin]

6. That might be debatable. ...

Luke 22:36-38

King James Version (KJV)

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

And remember the incident involving Simon Peter and his sword.

John 18:10-11
(King James Version KJV)

10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

I interpret these passages to mean that Jesus was not opposed to the use of a weapon for legitimate self defense. Others feel differently.

[hrmjustin]

10. Jesus was said nothing about being armed, but he was not for using them.

[spin]

21. I will politely suggest that he was not for the misuse of weapons. ...

However Jesus did not come from a pacifist society and legitimate self defense was accepted in his time.

[hrmjustin]

22. Ah read the gospels! he did not like violence.

[safeinOhio]

29. When WC Fields was caught reading the bible,

a devote atheist, he claimed he was looking for loop-holes.

[hrmjustin]

35. lol my friend!

[spin]

36. I will agree that Jesus was opposed to unnecessary violence. ...

He was not opposed to the use of a proper level of force for legitimate self defense when absolutely necessary. That's why he suggested carrying a sword to his disciples. Remember that a sword was the handgun of his day and in reality is a far more lethal weapon at close range in skilled hands than the handguns commonly carried by police or civilians today.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

[hrmjustin]

37. God bless you Spin!!!!

[spin]

42. May God bless you also. (n/t)

[Skittles]

3. they pander to fear and ignorance

so gun nuts are a shoo-in

[spin]

14. Is the legitimate use of a weapon to defend yourself, your family or another innocent individual ...

from an attack that would result in serious injury or death an example of fear or ignorance?

Self-defense (United States)

In the United States, the defense of self-defense allows a person to use reasonable force in his or her own defense or the defense of others (see the theoretical background for why this is allowed).

While the definitions vary from state to state, the general rule makes an important distinction between the use of non-deadly and deadly force. A person may use non-deadly force to prevent imminent injury, however a person may not use deadly force unless that person is in reasonable fear of serious injury or death. Some states also include a duty to retreat, when deadly force may only be used if the person is unable to safely retreat. A person is generally not obligated to retreat if in one's own home in what has been called the castle exception (from the expression "A man's home is his castle&quot .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_%28United_States%29

Should we change our long legal history to forbid the use of a weapons for self defense in circumstances where it is possibly the only logical alternative to prevent serious injury or death from an attacker who has the ability, capacity and intention to cause this result?

I am in no way denying that weapons are frequently used to cause tragedy by criminals and irresponsible citizens. This is a serious problem and needs to be addressed by our laws and their enforcement.

[Skittles]

18. omg

you picked a great username

[spin]

27. Thanks. I totally agree. (n/t)

[struggle4progress]

5. Just think how many people they could bring through the doors with BDSM classes!

[rrneck]

7. I wonder if there is any cultural phenomena

that religious organizations won't use to attract members? Why is it that the word of God is not enough? You can have a Christian anything but an undisputed authority on right human behavior or spiritual enlightenment.

And on a side note, you just had to drop a Roosevelt dime on my ass there dincha?

[spin]

15. I apologize for dropping the dime on you. (n/t)

[rrneck]

19. No worries dawg! I laughed my ass off.

When I get tired of pissing people off in guns I come over here to cause trouble. It's almost as much fun as Meta.

I've noticed that for the exchange of a few nouns, there's really no difference between guns and religion.

[spin]

25. You make a damn good point. (n/t)

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. Concealed what? Bibles?

That would be a good start.

[Vietnameravet]

11. Ya you never know when you might need a gun or a hand grenade at church!!

ya gotta keep a careful eye on those other worshipers!!

[spin]

30. A legal firearm in church may make sense as it is a defensive weapon.

A hand grenade might be effective but it is a weapon to be used at a range that would be hard to justify as legitimate self defense unless you were involved a military action.

[Vietnameravet]

49. Well you never know..

the entire congregation might suddenly turn on you and you might need a few grenades..

Seriously, this country is paranoid ..constant fear even when attending church!

[Phillip McCleod]

58. zombies?

[cleanhippie]

16. I find this to be an interesting paraodox.

If one believes in the god who looks after His flock, why would one feel the need to carry a gun for protection? Sounds like a lack of faith to me...

[spin]

24. Some Christians have a negative view of medicine. ...

Christian Science

***snip***

Christian Scientists believe that sickness and disease are the result of fear, ignorance, or sin, and should be healed through prayer or introspection. Combined with a belief that the use of medicine is incompatible with Christian Science healing methods, this has led to outbreaks of preventable disease and a number of deaths.[3] Its claim that sickness can be healed through prayer rather than medicine, its rejection of science as illusory, and its attempts to present itself as science make Christian Science a pseudoscience. [4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

I tend to describe myself as a Christian although a good number of "Christians" have passed judgement on me and told me that I am destined to burn in Hell.

My personal belief is that the God I believe in would have no problem with my using a weapon for self defense if truly necessary. He would frown on any misuse of a weapon. My God expects me to use commonsense and to be prepared as much as possible for an emergency.

Just because I have some "faith", God doesn't protect me with a force field against evil or sickness. If I get seriously ill I make an appointment with a doctor. If my home is threatened by a serious hurricane or a tornado I don't walk across the street to the local church in order to survive. Some will say that I lack faith but I feel God doesn't suffer fools gladly.

[cleanhippie]

46. So what is the point then?

I mean to say, what is the point of your god then?

[spin]

48. The God I believe in can become a handy crutch in times of need. ...

I am going through a rough period in my life and my faith helps.

As long my God does not require me to hate, discriminate against others or kill them but instead directs me to treat all others as I would have them treat me, I can see no major problem in my choice to believe in this deity.

Of course my belief in this God might actually be wrong and the reality is that no such superior being exists. It might also be possible that he/she/it might actually be real but have absolutely no interest in a slightly intelligent life form in an obscure galaxy.

My father, who was an agnostic with a good knowledge of the Bible once told me as he was approaching his death that I could chose to believe in religion or to disbelieve. Then he added, "Of course if you do believe and God actually does exist, you will be in a far better shape than if you had chosen to disbelieve. If God doesn't exist your belief or disbelief will be totally irrelevant."

[cleanhippie]

53. If more believers held the same POV as you, the world woul be a much better place.

[spin]

55. Thanks for your support. (n/t)

[Vietnameravet]

50. But doesn't is say "thou shalt no kill"?

This is pretty clear to me and there are no ifs ands or buts..

i am not a Christian...nor Jewish nor Muslim..all of which read the Bible.. just asking a question a Quaker asked of me..

I think most people believe what they want to believe

[spin]

54. Unfortunately "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. ...

If you read the Old Testament you will find many accounts of wars in which the Israelis killed others.

For example the Battle of Jericho:

The battle

The biblical account describes the Israelites being led by Joshua and crossing the Jordan into Canaan where they laid siege to the city of Jericho. There, God spoke to Joshua telling him to march around the city once every day for six days with the seven priests carrying ram's horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day they were to march around the city seven times and the priests were to blow their ram's horns. This Joshua did, and he commanded his people not to give a war-cry until he told them to do so. On the seventh day, after marching around the city the seventh time, the priests sounded their ram's horns, and Joshua ordered the people to shout. The walls of the city collapsed, and the Israelites were able to charge straight into the city. The city was completely destroyed, and every man, woman, and child in it was killed. Only Rahab and her family were spared, because she had hidden the two spies sent by Joshua. After this, Joshua burned the remains of the city and cursed any man who would rebuild the city of Jericho would do so at the cost of his firstborn son. It is generally accepted that the biblical date for the fall of the walls is the 28th of Nisan, according to the Hebrew calendar.[2]...emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho

Here's an explanation of the mistranslation:

As for your question about the 5th/6th commandment (there's a difference in the numbering of the Big Ten), the most widely-known translation is, indeed, "Thou shalt not kill." Unfortunately, this translation is profoundly and radically incorrect.

In biblical Hebrew, as in English, killing (harag) and murder (ratzah) are two different words with two very different moral connotations, and the commandment uses the Hebrew word ratzah, which means that the proper translation of the commandment from Hebrew into English is, "Thou shalt not murder." The difference is crucial.

Killing is taking a life. Murder is taking a life with no moral justification. Murder is morally wrong, but there is wide moral agreement (not complete agreement) that some forms of killing are morally just, and killing an enemy combatant during wartime is one of them. You did not violate the commandment by serving in the American army and fighting the battles you were ordered to fight.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-12/features/sns-201204101200--tms--godsqudctngs-a20120412apr12_1_commandment-killing-murder

A longer explanation is available at: http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

Of course these explanations might prove unconvincing to your Quaker friend.

Peace testimony, or testimony against war, is a shorthand description of the action generally taken by members of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) for peace and against participation in war. Like other Quaker testimonies, it is not a "belief", but a description of committed actions, in this case to promote peace, and refrain from and actively oppose participation in war. Quakers' original refusal to bear arms has been broadened to embrace protests and demonstrations in opposition to government policies of war and confrontations with others who bear arms, whatever the reason, in the support of peace and active nonviolence. Because of this core testimony, the Religious Society of Friends is considered one of the traditional peace churches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Testimony

[left on green only]

34. Oh lord won't ya buy me......

a Colt 45.

My friends all shoot Wessons

I'm just trying to survive

Worked hard all my life

from 8:00 until 5:00

So lord won't ya buy me

that Colt 45



I can hear Janis now, dog rest her soul.

[Iggo]

38. Guns and religion. A natural match.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

43. Clinging to guns and religion.

Way to dispel the stereotypes!

[Iggo]

47. Off topic.

Go Kings Go.

[rug]

45. Luke 22:49-51

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?”

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

Granted, he didn't use a firearm but still . . . .

[dimbear]

56. For postgraduate credit, see the movie "Five Card Stud" and pay special attention to

the Robert Mitchum character.

[cbayer]

57. And the one in Texas is justifying this using racism.

“We’re about 150 miles from the border with Mexico and we’re very unsure about our insecure borders — about what’s coming into our cities,” Pastor James Miller told NRA News. “Personally, I feel more secure that should our worship time be interrupted by a life-threatening intrusion, that we would at least stand some kind of a chance in stopping either a mass killing or terrorizing experience.”

Yeah, because there has really been an epidemic of Mexicans coming into churches and shooting things up.

Churches often provide their facilities to organizations for all kinds of things and I don't have a problem with that. But trying to justify it as "the spiritual importance of being able to defend oneself" is worthy of ridicule.

[Phillip McCleod]

59. just giving people one more reason not to go to church

at least not that church

[struggle4progress]

60. Their website is a trip

... We believe that there is a ministry opportunity in Morrow County to those who enjoy the shooting sports ... We have a preacher who is an avid outdoorsman, Certified Hunter Education instructor, 4-H Shotgun Instructor, one elder who is involved with 4H Shooting Sports and is a NRA certified conceal carry instructor, another elder who is a 4-H Archery Instructor and a deacon is a certified hunter education instructor, 4-H Rifle instructor and works for Ohio's Division of Wildlife ... http://www.marengochristian.org/

This is our letter sent to President Barack Hussein Obama, Senators George Voinovich & Sherrod Brown and the American Family Association along with our statement of position (Note; this was prior to the Manhattan Declaration being conceived) ... Know that the continuing efforts of your administration, the senate and house to pass all inclusive hate crimes legislation and other subsequent attacks on Christians is a cause of concern for us ... http://www.marengochristian.org/where-we-stand.html


remnant sons motorcycle club
Ministering to the biker culture
http://www.marengochristian.org/supported-ministries.html

WELCOME TO MORROW COUNTY 4-H SHOOTING SPORTS
Morrow Co. 4-H shooting sports is held at the Marengo Christian Church with the mandatory safety meeting being held in May and classes held in June-July. Check back for the 2013 schedule
http://www.marengochristian.org/morrow-co-4-h-shooting-sports.html


... Annual Cabelas pilgramage
January 21st, 2012
Our annual pilgramage is being held later in hopes there will be a restocking of the Bargain Cave ...
http://www.marengochristian.org/events.html

[struggle4progress]

61. From the Remnant Sons website:

... We believe that the Church will eventually be forced to go underground … Our strategy is to develop relationships with those who are living on the fringe, set up outposts, make disciples, and be ready to lead when the time comes ...

http://remnantsonsmc.com/heres-what/

[cbayer]

62. Oh boy. That is some scary stuff.

Yep - my idea of a church - armed to the teeth and full of survivalists.

[struggle4progress]

63. If they aren't raptured, they'll be able to treat The Rapture like a big fun skeet shoot!