Why I Raise My Children Without God

[cleanhippie]

When my son was around 3 years old, he used to ask me a lot of questions about heaven. Where is it? How do people walk without a body? How will I find you? You know the questions that kids ask. For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven. Like most parents, I love my child so much that I didn’t want him to be scared. I wanted him to feel safe and loved and full of hope. But the trade-off was that I would have to make stuff up, and I would have to brainwash him into believing stories that didn’t make sense, stories that I didn’t believe either. One day he would know this, and he would not trust my judgment. He would know that I built an elaborate tale—not unlike the one we tell children about Santa—to explain the inconsistent and illogical legend of God.

And so I thought it was only right to be honest with my children. I am a non-believer, and for years I’ve been on the fringe in my community. As a blogger, though, I’ve found that there are many other parents out there like me. We are creating the next generation of kids, and there is a wave of young agnostics, atheists, free thinkers and humanists rising up through the ranks who will, hopefully, lower our nation’s religious fever. (AMEN!!!

Here are a few of the reasons why I am raising my children without God:

God is a bad parent and role model.

If God is our father, then he is not a good parent. Good parents don’t allow their children to inflict harm on others. Good people don’t stand by and watch horrible acts committed against innocent men, women and children. They don’t condone violence and abuse. “He has given us free will,” you say? Our children have free will, but we still step in and guide them

God is not logical.

How many times have you heard, “Why did God allow this to happen?” And this: “It’s not for us to understand.” Translate: We don’t understand, so we will not think about it or deal with the issue. Take for example the senseless tragedy in Newtown. Rather than address the problem of guns in America, we defer responsibility to God. He had a reason. He wanted more angels. Only he knows why. We write poems saying that we told God to leave our schools. Now he’s making us pay the price. If there is a good, all-knowing, all-powerful God who loves his children, does it make sense that he would allow murders, child abuse, wars, brutal beatings, torture and millions of heinous acts to be committed throughout the history of mankind? Doesn’t this go against everything Christ taught us in the New Testament?

The question we should be asking is this: “Why did we allow this to happen?” How can we fix this? No imaginary person is going to give us the answers or tell us why. Only we have the ability to be logical and to problem solve, and we should not abdicate these responsibilities to “God” just because a topic is tough or uncomfortable to address.

(5 more reason at link...)

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-910282

Side note: When you follow the link, the CNN iReport page open and pop-up window comes up stating that "This material has been flagged as inappropriate. Do you want to continue?" Yes, A person speaking their mind about why they do not believe in a god has been flagged as "inappropriate". Thanks, believers, thanks a lot. Your tolerance of those that do not share your views is refreshing and enjoyable...

[Sekhmets Daughter]

1. 14K recs...you should be proud....

It is so well thought out and written!

[kardonb]

6. freethinker

bravo , cleanhippie , its so good to hear from people who have the good sense to see religion for what it is : a means of power over people , blind following of doctrine ,without applying critical thinking .

keep up the good work , your children will thank you for it !

[Sekhmets Daughter]

8. I think you may want to move this...I don't know if Cleanhippie will see it here.

[cleanhippie]

12. I see it! Thanks to both of you.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

18. You're welcome. I'm glad you saw both.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

47. And bravo to both of you for your atheistic bigotry

I expect to be slapped down for this post. After all, on DU, spewing anti-religious bigotry is perfectly acceptable, but calling it bigotry is not.

[Warpy]

51. Anti atheist bigotry never gets slapped down on DU

So your post will stand forever.

You are also mistaken about the nature of the OP. Anti religious bigotry would be along the lines of "all believers are stupid, they have to be." None of that was reflected in the OP nor in the article it cited.

Atheists have a right to exist and the same right you do to speak out. I know that comes as a terrible shock.

[cleanhippie]

54. humble he may proclaim, but the latter of his name is what he is.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

63. Obviously, you are living in an alternate reality

When I have called atheists for their bigoted remarks, I regularly get slapped down.

No, the fact is that atheistic bigotry is completely acceptable on DU, but calling it bigotry is not. Has the thread about Richard Dawkins saying that raising a child to be Catholic is "worse than child abuse" been deleted? Are any of the posts agreeing with Dawkins erased? No, the only one to be considered beyond the pale is one of mine.

[Walk away]

81. I spent the first seven years of my life subjected to a catholic upbringing...

and I can tell you it was absolutely child abuse. Blood, death, gore, guilt and fear force fed by some of the cruelest adults I have ever encountered was a childhood of ritualistic nightmares. I was very lucky to have heard someone explain the basics of Atheism at a very young age. It rang true immediately and helped sustain me through several years of Catholic school where I watch my fellow students unlearn critical thinking year after year.

When my entire second grade class watched a nun physically abuse a student in front of the class, I was the only one to stand up and tell her to stop and the only one to tell my parents what had happened. These poor brainwashed children believed that what was happening must be normal because they had spent their whole lives as religious sheep. That's what their religion encourages them to be. They are proud of being god's sheep.

My two beautiful, bright and independent nieces where raised as Atheists and make their life choices based on reality. I'm so happy for them and I know that their children will also be raised rationally. A much healthier family tradition.

[trotsky]

61. Your posts get hidden when you consistently cross the line

and start calling people names. It has nothing to do with bigotry, though your consistent smears against atheists certainly raise questions.

Behave, and you'll have fewer posts hidden. Pretty simple.

[humblebum]

78. "consistent smears against atheists" - that's almost comical.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

90. I started to write

a rather nasty -- albeit accurate -- statement about how I say that atheists whine and make bigoted remarks, and get slapped down for it.

I will simply repeat that it has been amply demonstrated to me that here it is perfectly acceptable for atheists to make bigoted remarks about religion, but it is not acceptable to call them on their bigoted remarks.

[mr blur]

95. You can repeat it all you like - won't make it any more true.

How about a list of examples from this Group of you poor persecuted Christians being unfairly "slapped down" for pointing out how bigoted we atheists are allowed to be?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

111. And you can deny it all you like.

The FACT remains that at least some of the atheists posting here are bigots, and their bigotry is perfectly acceptable. OTOH, when I say that their bigotry is bigotry, that is not acceptable. Thus, pointing out bigotry is worse than the bigotry itself.

Similarly, atheists regularly whine -- and that is the correct word -- that religious people are showing their religion in public. Saying "stop whining" is seen as an attack on the poor whining babies.

[trotsky]

114. Perhaps you should learn more about what the word "bigoted" means.

You seem to be confused when you attack others for being "bigoted" yet it's your posts that get hidden.

[Amaril]

119. You mean kinda like your bigoted remarks?

I know lots of Atheists, and nary a one of them is whiny or bigoted. Nice broad-brush you're painting the place up with there.

How about trying to have a rational discussion for a change instead of getting your undies all in a twist and launching into a tirade about how all Athiests are mean, nasty people?

Yes, I've seen people make comments that anyone who believes in God is at least foolish if not mentally ill. Know what I do? I ignore them, because people so hellbent on their particular *truth* to the point of being thoughtlessly insulting to -- and degrading of -- other points of view will not be changed by anything *I* say. Calling someone on their bigoted remarks (your words) is not going to get you anywhere. Anyone that firmly entrenched is simply going to dig in their heels and come out swinging. Turn the other cheek, brother -- isn't that what your Bible teaches?

Now, the OP in this thread was not disrespectful. It was a thoughtfully written piece by an athiest that has chosen to teach their children the truth as they see it -- something they are as free to do as you are to teach your children the truth as you see it.

People who insult Christians have no power over you, just as people who insult Atheists and Agnostics have no real power (though they are more inclined to try to force EVERYone to live their lives according to Christian tenents -- prayer in school, denying gays the right to marry, denying women access to birth control and/or abortions, etc.). Live your life -- let others live theirs -- and ignore the asshats you meet along the way.

[skepticscott]

120. Funny, though, that when a "spiritual" person

says the things most Xstians believe are silly, outdated, foolish, or just plain wrong, and calls those people and their approach to religion "unsophisticated" and "unthinking", that's just fine and warm and fuzzy. But if atheists express the same opinions, they're automatically labeled as "bigots".

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

126. Right, "raising a child to be Catholic is worse than child abuse" is not bigoted.

No, the FACT is that many atheists posting here are bigots, and their bigotry is tolerated. However, calling them on their bigotry is not.

That's hypocritical.

[trotsky]

127. There is a disconnect here, one that you might never be able to process.

You have admitted you believe in hell. You believe in eternal punishment. You see absolutely nothing wrong with it, and in fact, get very angry and attack others (falsely claiming they believe there should be absolutely no consequences for bad behavior) who have a problem with the morality of eternal, infinite torture.

Richard Dawkins pointed out that teaching children that hell is real and people are tortured there forever is child abuse. Many religious believers (including most on DU) agree with him - those whose beliefs are mature enough to discard notions of eternal punishment.

It's your problem to deal with. Perhaps you will spiritually grow to reject the notion of hell someday. But in the meantime, the people who disagree with you are not automatically "bigots."

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

128. So you too believe that actions should not have consequences

Which is the favored stance of sociopaths.

I do not say that those who disagree with me are bigots. I say that those who make bigoted remarks are bigots. There is an unsubtle difference between the two.

And I continue to say that those who say "raising a child to be Catholic is worse than child abuse" are bigots.

[trotsky]

129. My point is proven.

You're not spiritually mature enough to understand this. Your simple, binary thinking of "If you don't allow for eternal punishment, THEN you must believe that actions should not have consequences!" prevents any kind of rational discussion of the issue.

Good day.

[DetlefK]

2. Children raised on "Because I said so." are less critical later in life.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19767_5-hallmarks-bad-parenting-that-are-actually-good-kids.html

If they learn that arguing and thinking don't get them anywhere, then they will just stop doing so.

[4_TN_TITANS]

13. Oh hell no....

The surest way to piss me off as a kid was to have no other reason than "I told you so". At first, my wife tired to use this on my girls, but I had none of it. If you have no actual reason why they can or can't do something, then there is no reason.

"I told you so" translates to 1. I'm too tired to fuck with you right now 2. I just don't want to have to fuck with you right now.

[Dawson Leery]

101. "Because I said so" means "shut the f** up and get in line".

[DryRain]

3. Lots of commenters on that article's page objecting to the flagging

Now which atheists and free thinkers and skeptics would be flaging the article? NONE!!! The flaggers, obviously, are people who feel it is not wise to talk about or publish an article about raising children without God.

Desires for censorship among the religious? Hmm!

[Phillip McCleod]

38. hilarious cnn update. here it is

Update: CNN hasn't flagged this iReport as inappropriate, but some community members have. This is a divisive topic, however it does not violate our Community Guidelines, so we ask people to please stop flagging it. We will continue to review the story as often as possible. - dsashin, CNN iReport producer

[RedstDem]

4. Theres a lot of intolerance in the religio community

the religious left seems the most tolerant, the religious right would flag that as inappropriate.
I raised my sons without the bullshit, they turned out fine..

[awoke_in_2003]

17. If you want to see how tolerant...

the religious left is, wander in to the Religion sub forum.

[cleanhippie]

21. +1

[SoapBox]

5. Excellent post.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. Bravo!

Mine have been raised without a god. They know about Christianity and other religions. They know I'm a humanist and non-theist. They are some of the most compassionate and caring humans (of course, I'm biased ).

It is interesting to me to see how they now look at Christianity as absurd. I want to point out that I never told them it was absurd - their grandparents and friends are mostly christian and I didn't want them to be biased against them. I told them that I didn't believe and why I didn't believe but that there are many who do believe. They have attended church with their grandparents and friends at times. But, I wonder that since those connections in the brain were never made if it is now very difficult for them to make those connections. They honestly can't understand how people believe the stories in the Bible and regard them as truth.

We will see what the future holds. After all, they have free will

[Genghis_Sean]

9. Pat Tillman's younger brother said it best...

&list=FLdYJ3GkkK0XLNv9EGibHezw&index=1

[melody]

10. I raised my son with the only intellectually honest answer I could give him about "god"

No one knows what the hell this place is, why we're here, or if there is a what or why. We're all playing a guessing game. Consider all options.

[renie408]

11. EVERYBODY is raising their children without God.

Some people just don't want to acknowledge that. Some people feel better thinking that they have an all powerful father figure looking over their shoulder and helping them out when they have hard times. There is no logic or reason involved, that's why it is called 'faith'.

As rational as I can be, even I still have moments of extreme stress when I call on a God that I absolutely do not even believe exists at any other time. Faith and belief and that need for feeling as if you have some help out there somewhere is a strange thing. But we consciously avoided religion with our kids. I want them to be free to judge and choose for themselves. The closest we came to religion was teaching them some Buddhist principles along the way. But I tend to think of Buddhism as more of a philosophy than a religion and that's how we approached it.

[Victor_c3]

14. I have two kids (aged 2 and 4) and I've never mentioned the word "god" to either of them

I lean very much towards the atheist side of things. I'm a chemist by trade and I view so much of the use of a god and a god creating everything as an cop-out to answering hard questions. Why is the sky blue? God made it that way! Why aren't dinosaurs alive anymore? God destroyed them in a great flood! Why is fire hot? God made it that way!.... you get the idea. My 4 year old daughter can roughly outline the theory of evolution and she has a very rough idea of band-gap theory (even if she doesn't know that is what it is called) and some very firm understanding on a lot of scientific concepts. Why? Because I take the time to explain the world around her in terms of science and logic and I don't cop out and say "god made it that way".

Is there a heaven or an afterlife? I don't know. I don't think so, but I'm in no position to definitively answer that question. So I don't even feed the idea or concept of a heaven to my daughters.

Do you need to believe in god in order to be good people? Nope. Absolutely not. I believe that people are fundamentally good. I've been in some very shitty situations and humanity always prevails. Always!

I did some time in the military and even faced a decent amount of combat while I was in Iraq. You always hear that adage "there are no atheist in foxholes", but I completely disagree. I didn't believe in a god before war and I certainly don't believe in a god after going to war.

Just some random thoughts, I don't know if I'm really making much of a coherent post here....

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Same here. And we're not putting ours in any preschools that do it either.

We're using a Montessori school. Some are religious in nature, but ours is not. I keep a close eye on them, too.

[demwing]

16. This OP should be titled "Why I Rasie My Children Without Christianity"

Because your understanding of this God (in whom you disbelieve) is drawn from Judeo-Christian teachings.

[awoke_in_2003]

19. It is titled the way it should be...

the author doesn't believe in god, whether is the god of the judeo-Christian teachings or of the flying spaghetti monster variety.

[demwing]

24. You are entitled

to be wrong.

Every point brought up in the editorial quoted by the OP bases the decision to raise a child without God, on a perception of God as defined in Judeo-Christianity.

I'm not saying the OP doesn't have a point, I'm just saying that the title is inaccurate.

[Meshuga]

122. I agree and good point

As a Jew, I don't see me raising my child without god since god to me is just an abstract concept that is part of my tradition. Behaving and belonging is what it is about. Belief is an individual issue.

But regarding the definition of "god" offered in the article, I would tend to agree with the author (so I automatically think the OP has a point) and be considered myself an atheist when considering what author means by "god."

[cleanhippie]

22. I think perhaps you are reading the story through the lens of YOUR worldview.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. I think that person...

is one of those "you don't believe in god but you have to believe in something" people.

[NJCher]

20. hate to break the news to you

But what you teach your kid is probably irrelevant. The kid is going to determine his/her own belief system, and that's the way it should be.

The child probably will remember what you said but it will be classified as "Dad's belief system/so what."

I think your thread should be renamed "My Attempt at being Personally Honest with My Child." Your view of your influence is way over-inflated.


Cher

[cleanhippie]

23. I know that already, but the difference is that I am trying to teach my child HOW to think...

Last edited Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Not WHAT to think, as believers tend to do. I focus on giving her the tools to make rational, informed choices for herself. If she chooses to believe or not believe in a god, she will do so because that is what SHE chooses, not because its what I want.

[mr blur]

25. +1

[upaloopa]

27. The problem is that no matter what side

you present in the debate, your kid needs to have the courage to use their own mind. You can't teach that.

[cleanhippie]

29. I couldn't disagree more!

We CAN teach out children to have the courage to use their own minds. That is what I am attempting to do. YMMV.

[Laochtine]

112. Courage and thinking

2 of the best traits humans have

[Meshuga]

123. But as a parent...

I kind of feel the responsibility to guide my child away from adhering to a god belief that I find to be harmful. So, in a way, I feel that I have to influence my child on what not to believe (i.e., in a biblical god who punishes and rewards) because I believe it to be harmful. In other words, my child will still be influenced by my values and beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

124. I agree...

and the best way to do just that, guide her away from harmful belief, is, IMO, to give her the ability to question and think critically.

[Meshuga]

125. Good point

Teaching tour kid to question and think critically is the best shield.

[Dpm12]

26. Ditto.

God and the Bible is bullshit

[madrchsod]

30. the bible is bullshit?

i guess you have`t studied the history of the region and it's archaeology.

[Gore1FL]

33. What about the region and it's archaeology make the bible not bullshit?

I am unfamiliar with the preponderance of evidence that lurks there.

[mr blur]

44. A study of "the history of the region and it's [sic] archaeology"

will in no way legitimize the bullshit in the bible - in the same way that studying the history and facts of L. Ron Hubbard's life will change the fact that Scientology is dangerous and ridiculous bullshit.

[Thats my opinion]

113. It is interesting that this sort of absolute put-down is never challenged

And yet there are cries of scorn when any post puts religion is a positive light .

At least if you are going to limit yourself to six words, get the English right

[humblebum]

28. I happen to think that God is a very good role model and that God is logical. And

that is why many parents raise their children in a religious environment. And yes of course you have always been so very tolerant of religious people.

[EvilAL]

31. I disagree.

I can't really see anything that would even make God a "role model" for humans. You can't become God, Satan tried that already. God has no redeeming qualities other than he created us and we have to worship him, that's not role model worthy. A role model is someone that guides you and teaches you to be like them like a mentor or can be a stranger who's ideas and actions you want to emulate or do yourself. It has to be a person YOU choose. God forces you to choose and in humans that is a bad role model. "Do what I say or go to hell" wouldn't be an example of something a very good human role model would say.

[humblebum]

36. So if someone tells you not to commit a murder and you do it there should be

Last edited Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)

no punishment or consequences? How dare he do that. Or if he tells you to feed the poor and to cloth the naked He is wrong for establishing consequences for failing to do so when able?

And that loving thy neighbor thing. What's that all about?

[Phillip McCleod]

39. so a cherry picked god is a good role model

but not the one depicted in the bible?

[humblebum]

40. The attributes I mentioned belong to the God of the Bible.

Just because you do not like or agree with the God described in the Bible does not mean that such God does not exist.

[Phillip McCleod]

41. so do 'genocidal misogynist' and 'invisible intangible'

and the same thing can be said about those attributes and the god they describe. thats what i mean about cherry picking a role model god. one has to overlook many morally outdated attributes to compose a god worthy of our love and devotion.

[humblebum]

43. "genocidal misogynist" - I don't believe I've ever seen those words in the Bible, so I guess

you are just venting there. "invisible intangible" - with that one I agree. In any case, yes, he is sovereign and he makes the rules, we don't.

[Phillip McCleod]

49. true 'genocidal misogynist' is more accurate and descriptive of yhwh than 'adonai' but there it is

then again yhwh does get all the exciting parts. poor 'esherim' were too vague, too feminine and too plural. same goes for shekinah. and lillith and her demon hoard stuck between worlds like some sort of woodsy nephilim? didn't play well at all with the shepherds.

[EvilAL]

42. Being nice to people

doesn't require a supernatural role model. If god needs to tell us not to kill each other he didn't create a very good species did he?

Commanding the slaughter of children. What's that all about?

[humblebum]

46. Who said that it did require "supernatural role model?"

And if you think you're the first one to not fully understand the Bible, I've got news for you. The God of the Bible can be very jealous and angry. We do know that. Anyone I know of has the capacity for those emotions to varying degrees. No surprise there.

[EvilAL]

48. I said that,

in the post above. A god isn't a role model for a human. Unless you are saying god isn't supernatural, in that case it wouldn't make any sense to you.
I guess God CAN be a jealous, angry, role model. The words jealous and angry usually don't fit into the description of good role models, unless the people revere jealously and being angry. That's like saying a dictator that slaughters people is a good role model because of the good things he does too. Ignore the murders and rapes and focus on the good things.. Awesome role model.

[Phillip McCleod]

50. your cherry picking the wrong parts i am told. :)

[EvilAL]

91. Guess so... nt

[2on2u]

52. Someone who so say sends earthquakes, tornadoes, floods and hurricanes wants me to

understand that I don't understand his/her ways. Yup. 1,000,000 people are wasted by an earthquake, 4 survive and the glass is half full people declare that god was with them. I don't get it.

[Gore1FL]

34. I would be upset if I had a child that acted the way God is portrayed as behaving in the Bible.

Jealousy, anger, the belief that it's OK to punish people for what others do... Not my idea of a good role model.

[humblebum]

56. So then do you think Obama is a good role model? nt

[Gore1FL]

57. I don't think Obama is God, so I don't see the question as remotely related.

For context, if Obama ever turns someone into a salt pillar, then my answer would be "no."

[humblebum]

58. Does he not have the power to end his enemies' lives and on occasion use that power?

Or for that matter any president or leader of a powerful nation?

[Gore1FL]

59. First of all, let me first state that I am an atheist.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that some amalgam of the Christian religions is true. In that case the scale, powers, knowledge, are on a significantly different scale. I suspect if Obama could use some *all powerful* method to turn someone into a positive contributor to the world rather than simply "smiting" that same person, he would.

[humblebum]

60. I would've never guessed.

[Gore1FL]

62. That Obama would choose to preserve life if he had the power of God?

I would think that would be most people's reaction.

What point are you trying to make, again?

[cleanhippie]

64. Dude, please don't feed him.

He already hijacked your sub-thread with nonsensical comparison to the President in a childish attempt to deflect. You will get nowhere with this one.

[humblebum]

66. You kinda have this thing against open honest discussion, don't you,

Mr. troll? As long as you can criticize and condemn without any challenges, you're satisfied. I think that's referred to as censorship.

[Gore1FL]

70. In fairness to him

You are really creating a lot of posts that really don't seem to go anywhere.

State your hypothesis first rather than try to get me to say something that you can use to retroactively prove it.

When a being is all knowing, all powerful, and all present, it is not unreasonable to expect better behavior--especially if "role model" is suggested as a job title.

[humblebum]

73. "When a being is all knowing, all powerful, and all present,

it is not unreasonable to expect better behavior..."

"When a being is all knowing, all powerful, and all present," it is not unreasonable to expect that such a being can behave in any manner such being pleases.

One of atheism's great straw man arguments is to define their own view of how a deity should be, and then to criticize that deity.

[Gore1FL]

75. OK... If that is your argument

If I am going to make up an evidence-free religion, my God would be worthy of worship.

Why should I accept your evidence-free religion when your super being is a fuck nut throughout your own texts?

The Bible's Greatest Hits!
Ezekiel 23:20: "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

1 Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet."

I Kings 14:10: The Lord promised "Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall..."

1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse."

Deut 25:11-12: "If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity."

Luke 14:26: "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."

Psalm 137 : "Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock."

Your book. Not mine. Not role model material to me, no matter how you slice it.

[humblebum]

77. Yep. He can be a mean dude when he's mad. nt

But you never answered my question about the role model material that a powerful leader might make. Some of them are capable of and have some of those things, also. Drones firing guns and missiles, upon their orders can clearly do much of what you describe.

Your argument after all is about those qualities that make for a good role model. Your agenda is clear and quite predictable, and your ability to quote mine the Bible is hardly evidence of the superior biblical skills that you portray yourself as having.

"Why should I accept your evidence-free religion when your super being is a fuck nut throughout your own texts?" Where did I ask you to accept anything?

You're are obviously only interested in propagating your very common anti-religious, radical atheist diatribe. IOW a blathering rant.

[Gore1FL]

83. I am not arguing whether or not Obama is a good role model

I am saying the God of Abraham, as described in the holy books of those who worship him, is not worthy of worship.

That stands on it's own.

You have claimed God as less than a moral character in defense on why he would be a role model.

If you honestly believe that using text straight from the Bible is "a very common anti-religious, radical atheist diatribe," an "a blathering rant," perhaps you should reconsider your religious choices.

[Gore1FL]

67. I know.

But it amuses me so!

[humblebum]

65. It seems your goal is to define the character of a good role model. And you have

Last edited Fri Jan 18, 2013, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

expressed those traits that you think detract form someone being a good role model. Also I didn't limit the possible good role models to Obama. And what does having the power of God have to do with making the decision to kill or not to kill.

[Gore1FL]

68. I expect more out of an all-powerful all-knowing all-present being

The God of Abraham is a small schizophrenic, tantrum-throwing, passive-aggressive, loser who blames his inability to create perfection on his creation and threatens them with eternal suffering for not believing demonstrable facts.

Killing is wrong. God kills. Ergo God is wrong.

Unless you claim the Bible is lying.

God is a bad role model. Probably so is gravity. I shall continue to pray to neither.

[humblebum]

69. The leopard shows its spots. nt

[Gore1FL]

71. Meaning?

If you have a point, you are not making it.

I believe the phrase you were looking for is "A leopard cannot change its spots" or "A leopard never changes it's spots."

Perhaps you mean my posts seem to you like swift cunning predators hunting for clarity. If so, thank you for the compliment!

[humblebum]

72. It means what it says.

And yes, I have made my point.

[Gore1FL]

74. So you are talking about biology now?

Richard Dawkins makes an interesting Role Model. He doesn't have God powers, but he knows physicists which is kind of like that, except for where it is different.

If you meant to quote the Bible, Jeremiah 13:23, you got it wrong, which is sort of funny for me as an atheist to point out.

Could you rephrase your point in 25 words or less? Perhaps a different metaphor or different perspective would make you point more clear.

I am simply point out that the God of Abraham has done horrific things to humans (instead of using his divine hand to intervene to stop the things he must know is going to get him all pissy later.)

I didn't write the stories. I don't believe the stories. Oddly, I seem to know the stories better than you. Regardless, God would make a shitty role model unless you were an up and coming middle-eastern tyrant.

So please, point out your point or this whole exercise has been relatively pointless. I hypothesize that was your whole point, but it is mildly amusing.

[humblebum]

76. You have gotten about as far away from your original argument as one can possibly be.

Last edited Sat Jan 19, 2013, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

You said,"Not my idea of a good role model."


Whatever stories you are referring to I have no idea.

[Gore1FL]

79. At this point, I am merely taunting you to make you make a point.

I said God makes a terrible role model. I give examples.

You obscure that with talk of Obama, and then admit God isn't morally perfect, which forces two questions: 1> If God isn't morally perfect, but yet has literally all of the power in the universe and apparently beyond to be better, but chooses not to, why would that be role model material? "I can be better, but why when this sadism thing is going so well?" seems like an odd theme to want to emulate.
2> What is your point?

The stories I am referring to come from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. When you took offense at my critique of the God of Abraham, I assumed you might actually be a familiar with stories and how they depict God and His "word."

This conversation has gone something like this:

> God is an awesome Role model
> No, God is not. Here are examples.
> If God is not a good role model than neither is Obama
> What?
> Leopards!*
> What?
> You are off topic! I haven't read the Bible!
> What? Here is a nifty condensation of our discussion thus far!**

* If you make metaphors about Snow Leopards, Lions, and Mountain Lions, sequentially, you will be like Mac O/S, but likely not enough to be sued by Apple!
** This post!

[humblebum]

80. I think you are talking to yourself more than taunting me. You are entertaining

me, I'll give you that much.

It has already been demonstrated that many of the qualities making a good role model, in your estimation, exist in many prominent human beings also.

To say that God is not morally perfect, (which you claim I admitted, but we both know that I said no such thing, nor suggested it) is to imply that you have an established standard by which to qualify what constitutes being morally perfect.

So to what or to whom are you considering as the standard of being morally perfect? Or is it all simply your bloviated opinion of what constitutes morality?

[Gore1FL]

84. Any God worth worshipping is morally perfect

There is no God, and even the myths give them eternal wisdom, eternal strength, eternal knowledge, eternal et al, which they apparently cannot use in a demonstrable way.

There are plenty of humans who act better than God does in the Bible--and they are claimed to be the imperfect creation of the apparent imperfect God described in the Bible.

Tell, just for giggles, what role of God's do you model?

[humblebum]

85. Two things:

First of all, you do not KNOW that there is no God. That is your assumption and opinion.

Secondly, you can only say that God is not morally perfect when you are the one defining what is moral and what is not.

You seem to have some serious flaws in your reasoning. What might be considered as moral in one human culture, may not be in another. For example, being a proud warrior and fighting and killing an evil enemy is/was a moral quality in some cultures. To not do so would be considered immoral for allowing such an evil to exist. In another any kind of killing is considered immoral.

As a declared atheist, you display to me absolutely nothing that I would care to teach my children. You first show contempt for others ideas and beliefs, and you base your own opinions upon your own ideas of morality.

Your opinion of God is just that - your own very subjective opinion of what you consider to be moral. You, evidently are your own standard of morality.

Saying that God doesn't exist simply because such a god does not fit your definition of what would constitute a real god, does not prove that there is no God. That is a very flawed and transparent reasoning.

[Gore1FL]

86. I can't know there is no God, You are correct.

But I do know there is no evidence of any, and no reason to need one. It seems more than a little strange to suggest that the God of Abraham is real, however, due to the obvious factual errors throughout. We know the Bible is wrong in places, for example. We know it is contradictory in some other places.

I don't show contempt of other's beliefs. I simply pointed out that God was a bad role model. I explained why over and over and over. Believe whatever you want, I don't care. Don't engage me in a discussion that exposes things you don't like to talk about, and I won't discuss those things with you.

Updated Condensed Conversation.

> God is an awesome Role model
> No, God is not. Here are examples.
> If God is not a good role model than neither is Obama
> What?
> Leopards!
> What?
> You are off topic! I haven't read the Bible!
> What? Here is a nifty condensation of our discussion thus far!
> Atheists are mean--especially those who challenge opinions of Christians with Bible Passages!

[humblebum]

87. You are still basing your opinion on your flawed reasoning. You say there is no evidence

of God. the fact is that you do not recognize anything as being evidence of the existence of a god. Not all, including myself, share your opinion. Objective, empirical evidence proving God - there is none, nor would I claim such. Subjective evidence? Plenty of it. And enough personally for me to no longer have any doubts.

As for your summary of the conversation, it is YOUR summary, not mine.

[Gore1FL]

89. Post examples of some of this evidence.

Because if Jesus appeared in the sky and said "I'm Real," I would say "OK, Here is new data. I will now base my opinions on this. Praise the lord."

You simply believe what you were told, and have already conceded you are unfamiliar with the the very stories you claim to believe.

You have yet to make a point besides something about observable spots on leopards and your suspicions that Obama might not make the best role model either so that excuses God for being shitty.

Can you clearly state your point, or are you going to get upset that you cannot defend you original statement that God is a good role model in a clear and stated argument? The fact that you agree that God is not perfect morally works against this.

[humblebum]

92. "You simply believe what you were told, and have already conceded

conceded you are unfamiliar with the the very stories you claim to believe." According to who, you?

I can honestly say that I have been through the Bible several times, so I know that I have touched on all the same stories that you claim to know so much about.

And where did I say that God was not morally perfect, when the standard of your morality has never been divulged?

All of this has been addressed already, but you are still using your very narrow POV to reason, as well as telling me that I said certain things that clearly were never said nor intimated.

[Gore1FL]

93. No. Your own words.

you might want to read your posts and then read the bible.

I don't have a narrow point of view. I know quite a bit about Christianity. That's why I reject it. It is built upon sand.

Jesus has some useful philosophies. Those might be useful in either defining a morality or serving as a model on which to live one's life.

The character known as God throughout the Bible was terrible on that yard stick, up to and including punishing and killing his own son to forgive all sins, except the ones that make you burn in hell.

But the zebra shows it's stripes!

[humblebum]

94. No. those were your words, not mine.

And yes, your POV is very narrow. And no I do not agree with you that God is not morally perfect. We have already established that what you consider to be moral in one case you do not in another.

And when a zebra shows its stripes a predator knows that its meal is before it, but when a leopard shows its spots its victim suddenly realizes that it's about to become the meal.

[Gore1FL]

96. You didn;t recognize bible texts and said God can do anything he wants

I can find your specific phrases if you need me to, but simple do a search on your name to locate them yourself.

[humblebum]

97. Have a ball.

No one I have ever known has ever won a religious argument about the nature of God due to the ambiguities involved. However, you are the one who claimed him to be all powerful and all knowing. On that we agree.

BTW, who said I didn't recognize Bible texts? You have gotten so far from your original argument, I think you are confusing yourself.

[Gore1FL]

98. It's a real shame he doesn't use his power well

It makes him a poor role model.

[humblebum]

99. Is it that he doesn't use it well, or is it that he doesn't use it the way you think he should?

There is that same old straw man argument again. Defining your particular take on God and then criticizing your defined character of who God is. You are far too predictable.

[Gore1FL]

100. He doesn't use it the way Jesus says one should behave

Your rules, once again.

[humblebum]

103. Oh really? So are you saying that Jesus doesn't approve of God's behavior? If that

is the case then you know little about the Bible. Jesus often warned of what would happen to those who fail to try to do what he says. Many examples, i.e. Matthew 24:37-39

For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

All through the Gospels, Jesus continually refers back to the OT:

Jesus referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6).

"Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?" (Matthew 22:31);

He mentions many of the accounts in the Old Testament, such as the destruction of Sodom (Luke 17:29, 32), the judgment upon Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 1-1:21), and many others.

[Gore1FL]

104. I am saying that Jesus says to behave in a manner God does not.

I haven't personally asked Jesus his views on the issue because he doesn't return my calls.

[humblebum]

105. I think maybe you are using the wrong area code.

[Gore1FL]

106. What part of it don;t you understand?

Jesus outlined acceptable behaviors in his philospphy.

God does not follow said behaviors.

Ergo. God is a shitty Role model.

If you cannot understand that, I am sorry that you don't know the stories and philosophies on which your religion is based.

Don't worry. In that vacuum of knowledge, you'll always have leopards.

[humblebum]

107. So, you don't approve of God's behavior, therefore he doesn't exist? Makes perfect sense.

[Gore1FL]

108. No. I said the God you worship, as decribed in your holy book

Does not behave the way his son says peole should behave.

Therefore he makes a shitty role model.

This has nothing to do with my beliefs. It has to do with contradictions in your religion that makes God seemingly unable to "live" up to the standards placed upon us.



My atheism comes not from how shitty God would be as a role model, but rather my belief that God doesn't exist.


Don't worry, though. You will always have Obama to compare with God and Leopards using a book you claim to be unfamiliar with.

Cheers!

[humblebum]

110. Sounds to me that man was made more in the image of God than you care to admit.

What may seem a contradiction to you, is a confirmation to me.

That's bound to get a few comments, but such is life.

[Gore1FL]

115. It sounds like you are saying

That you do not worship God because he is a role model, but because he has power.

Religion is definitely something I am glad to have separated myself from. In my opinion, it spends far too much time defending false revelation and not enough seeking the truth.

[tama]

109. There is indeed something koan-like

in the biblical tensions and contradictions between theologies and teachings of Old and New Testament, that can be approached both historically and spiritually - whether you came from Christian background or not, or follow that path or not.

And I wouldn't place my bets on that humblebum is unaware of those tensions and contradictions, with which Christians everywhere struggle to find deeper meaning in life and peace in soul.

Reading between lines, if I understand correctly, also humblebum seems to be saying and agreeing that any image that you make of God or turn God into, can all too easily turn into shitty role model.

The Trickster trick here is the meaning and interpretation of "all-powerful' and "all-knowing". What each of us projects into those meanings and what those projections reveal and tell about us.

[Ligyron]

88. Ha! Guess we know who got the better of who in that conversation. n/t

[2ndAmForComputers]

117. It could be worse.

You could have a GIRLFRIEND who acted like God. THEN you'd be so screwed it wouldn't even be funny.

[paleotn]

118. Amen and Amen!

[cynatnite]

116. So, let me get this straight...

God has a history of killing innocents. He's also a "jealous" god as well. These things don't strike me as something a role model should have. God also impregnated himself in a virgin, was born, and died for us because he said we are all sinners. Still trying to figure out how that gets us to the heaven part.

Oh, and let's not forget the biggie. You see, I have children and grandchildren. I love them no matter what. Even if they didn't love me back, my feelings for them wouldn't change. I'd still welcome them with open arms no matter how long it took.

God, on the other hand, will send your ass to a burning hell for eternity because you don't love him. If that isn't the most cruel and petty vindictive act around, I don't know what is.

If God was all that, he'd let you in heaven regardless.

[EvilAL]

32. Those are good reasons.

I am finding it easier to do it myself, there are no worries about what people think and it doesn't effect their day to day life whatsoever. I always told them that if an adult wants to have a religious discussion with them or questions them about their lack of knowledge of the bible etc, to tell me and I'll initiate the conversation with said adult.

[BillE]

35. The Flag has been removed

Here's a note from CNN:

Update: CNN hasn't flagged this iReport as inappropriate, but some community members have. This is a divisive topic, however it does not violate our Community Guidelines, so we ask people to please stop flagging it. We will continue to review the story as often as possible.
- dsashin, CNN iReport producer

I guess telling the truth about religion and god is a divisive topic.

[CoffeeCat]

45. I don't know about anyone else, but I find it difficult...

...to be someone who is not involved in organized religion--because that is what you are supposed to do. I live in a suburb. The vast majority go to church. Facebook posts are filled with "prayer warrior" requests and when a child gets cancer or someone dies in an accident--"God has him now" and "This is God's plan and we can't possibly understand it" are the prevailing thoughts.

I have respect for any views and beliefs. It is my belief that we have absolutely no answers. We are here. There could be a spiritual force that created the universe...or not. We just don't know. So, I assume that everyone takes a guess--one that fits for them.

However, what bothers me--is that most of these people look down and judge harshly those of us who do not attend Church. I have heard so many general (not specifically about me) condescending comments and snap judgments from religious people, about those who do not believe or attend church. They pity us and think we are the most misguided, idiotic, unenlightened creatures.

Just last week, I was in the grocery store chatting with the manager of the organic section. A conversation about diet and sugar slowly morphed into a religious one. I told her that I was a sugar addict but I had been clean for three months. She said that I needed to realize that Satan was tempting me and that I had to pray to ensure that God would guide me through this. I tried to tell her that I didn't believe in any of that--but I respected that she did. She looked at me so destroyed--as if I had just told her that I enjoyed going on killing sprees on the weekends. What gets me--is these people can spout off about some kind of horned, evil guy making me eat banana moon pies---and that's ok. But not believing that a snarling demon sits around, just waiting for lunch time--so he can mentally will me into scarfing down a bag of Snicker Bars--is taken as rock-solid reality. Messed up, in my opinion.

I do believe that humans have some kind of spiritual component. I do not have the answers. However, my belief is that most religion is an expression of that spirituality--and that many religions have morphed into something bizarre that has buried that central spirituality.

[Owl]

53. Excellent article! Thank you so much for writing it.

I've been following it on CNN. Very thoughtful and well written.

Bravo! K&R

[cleanhippie]

55. I wish it was written by me, sadly it is not.

But it reflects how I (we) are raising our daughter.

[defacto7]

82. Beautiful!

That's the way we do it. That's the way it should be. My kids have asked a lot of questions too, but have never had too many questions about heaven etc. They (we) have read a lot of religious myth stories but none were made more important than another. They have asked about life and death and we just tell them the facts... no mythical stories, and they have always been fine with it. They seem to have picked up the idea that humans have many stories that are mystical and artistic but science is science, math is math. When they have asked questions, my usual answer is a question, "What do you think?" They put together their own ideas and then I say, "Well, this is what I think..." They have no fear of death or monsters or the unknown. They have been brought up to be curious, and the unknown is a wonderment and and exciting task to solve. No more no less.

[another_liberal]

102. "Those who can make you . . ."

"Those who can make you believe in absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."

[Meshuga]

121. Parents should be honest with their children

And not teach a concept they do not believe in such as heaven and hell.

I chose honesty and expressing that no one has come back from the dead to tell us what happens and that death is likely to be the same as before we were born when we didn't exist.

My 8 year old (at the time) asked me about death and I felt the obligation to be honest. He didn't like my take at first but eventually got over it and understood that what matters is to enjoy our lives while we are still alive and work on good content for our obituaries so we are proud of our legacy when we eventually die.