"Saudi woman beheaded for ‘practicing witchcraft'" article

[MarkCharles]

"RIYADH: A Saudi woman was beheaded Monday after being convicted of practising sorcery, which is banned in the ultra-conservative kingdom, the Interior Ministry said.

Amina bint Abdulhalim Nassar was executed in the northern province of Jawf for “practising witchcraft and sorcery,” the ministry said in a statement carried by SPA state news agency.

It is not clear how many women have been executed in the desert-kingdom, but another woman was beheaded in October for killing her husband by setting his house on fire.

The beheading took to 73 the number of executions in Saudi Arabia this year."

More:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/12/12/saudi-woman-beheaded-for-practicing-witchcraft/

How's that religion thing working out? This is a US "ally" ?

[Pab Sungenis]

1. The problem is not religion.

It's with certain people who abuse religion to either justify their opinions, or to lord power over others.

Certain sects within the US have a history as bloody as the Saudi regime.

[ButterflyBlood]

3. Yeah but unlike the Saudis they aren't doing it now

And it's not exactly recent history either, I'd be surprised if anyone has been executed for witchraft in the US since independence.

[Humanist_Activist]

4. How can you say that with a straight face?

You say its an abuse of a religion that DEMANDS you lord power over others when its actually used as intended? How does that work?

Oh, and this applies to Christianity as well, just so we are clear.

Both religions proclaim they are the only true religion, they demand conversion or punishment, and they both actually have beliefs in magic.

[Pab Sungenis]

5. The Qu'ran does not command conversion or punishment.

In fact, it requires respect of other people's religions until and unless they persecute you.

[trotsky]

6. You had better hop the next plane to Saudi Arabia and set them right.

I'm sure they will be relieved to know they've been reading their holy book incorrectly and will appreciate the chance to grow and change.

Let us know how that goes!

[MarkCharles]

8. Then tell us, how many Muslim leaders in Saudi Arabia spoke out

against this?

The problem with any religion is it's adherents that do not stand up against this. This is the problem we have seen so many times before in human history. As such, religions are a human artifact, not something divinely inspired.

Seems like often only atheists and religious skeptics are the only one who speak out against this type of behavior.

Either that, or one religion filled with myths and misconceptions condemns another.

And if one thinks Christianity in the USA is so "opposed" to this kind of thing, how many states still have and use a death penalty in this nation? Religions reinforce human ignorance, human fears and the very human mythology that claims that the death penalty is an effective deterrent to crime.

[ButterflyBlood]

9. So the death penalty exists only because of religion?

That must be why China with its state atheist government is so opposed.

[Humanist_Activist]

12. So the death penalty exists only because of atheism?

Note, my subject line bears as much resemblance to your post as your post does to MarkCharles.

MarkCharles was pointing out, accurately, that religious people generally equivocate incidents like this(its not TRUE religion) and other bullshit.

He also pointed out that the most religious states in this country also are the ones with the greatest support for the death penalty, this isn't a new or unique observation.

[darkstar3]

23. +1

[cleanhippie]

20. And people womnder why R&T is such a "war zone." Its becuase of asinine comments like that.

How are YOU adding to thoughtful conversation here with that nonsense?

[humblebum]

21. You would think one would learn after awhile that atheism can't be criticized.

the nerve of some people.

[darkstar3]

22. The happenings here yesterday prove that your claim here is utter bullshit.

Atheism is not only criticised, but slammed and slurred with bigoted impunity backed by the majority of the board.

I think you're just mad that we don't sit back and take the abuse quietly.

[cleanhippie]

24. I wonder if he, or any of the others, would do/say the things they do in a REAL discussion.

I mean, an actual group of us, REAL PEOPLE, in a room, talking. Would he/they do/say the same shit to our faces?




I think not. But maybe I'm wrong. We can meet at the Reason Rally, and have a chat there. Nah, they won't do it. They know that this bullshit won't fly in the real world when the person you are denigrating is sitting right in front of you.

[humblebum]

25. "You have no right to not be offended." nt

[cleanhippie]

26. I'm glad you agree. But you would NEVER say the nonsense you do to a persons face.

Ever.


Keep jesus proud, now.

[humblebum]

27. Most of those I speak to do not consider it to be nonsense. Especially when I show them

the kind of anti-religious vitriol displayed by some here.

[cleanhippie]

28. Yeah, echo chambers are blissful, huh?

[humblebum]

29. So, is it that you think that no one outside of the immediate group ever views

the R/T forum or group or whatever it's called now?

[cleanhippie]

30. What are you talking about? My "other ways of knowing" need some work, I guess.

[humblebum]

32. I think you need to master one way of knowing before you attempt others.

That old excuse "I cannot understand it, therefore it doesn't exist" somehow isn't appealing to everyone.

[cleanhippie]

33. You are right, I do not find ignorance, especially willful ignornace, to be appealing at all.

So as far as not understanding how you can choose such a path truly IS beyond my comprehension, but it IS your choice. Good luck with that, though.

[humblebum]

34. I am certainly not alone. nt

[cleanhippie]

35. I know, and thats what makes it so frightening.

[humblebum]

31. It would be interesting to know specifically what "happenings here yesterday" you are referring to.

What makes them different from the everyday happenings around here?

[darkstar3]

36. I was clear about what I meant.

If you would bother to read the various threads about it in Religion, A&A, and Help & Meta, instead of just posting flamebait time and again, you would know exactly what I meant.

[humblebum]

37. So I guess I can assume it's not worth mentioning. Gotcha.

[darkstar3]

38. You know what they say about assumptions.

Why don't you read this to start with, instead of begging for attention:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1230602

[humblebum]

39. I do think the jury system leaves a lot to be desired, but to say that opinion indicates undo

feelings against atheists is just wrong.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. Yes, religion is merely the weapon of choice...

...for those certain people.

But, it's still a weapon.

[Iggo]

2. Our great an trusted ally in the war on women.

Oops.

Terror! Terror was the word I was looking for. Honest mistake.

[trotsky]

7. Many in this very forum have said we cannot criticize others' religious beliefs.

So I'm afraid I cannot comment.

[struggle4progress]

10. ... Philip Luther, the interim direct of Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa

program, condemned Nassar's killing, calling it "deeply shocking."

"The charges of 'witchcraft and sorcery' are not defined as crimes in Saudi Arabia and to use them to subject someone to the cruel and extreme penalty of execution is truly appalling," Luther said.

Luther said that a charge of sorcery is often used by the Saudi government as a smokescreen under which they punish people for exercising freedom of speech ...

Saudi Woman Beheaded for 'Witchcraft'
By RANDY KREIDER
Dec. 13, 2011
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/saudi-woman-beheaded-witchcraft/story?id=15145041

[trotsky]

15. So?

It's still religion that lets them get away with it. I'm not even shocked anymore, the lengths to which you'll go to defend the most foul expressions of religion.

[struggle4progress]

16. When I look at Saudi Arabia, I see a repressive monarchy, with no written penal code, that

the Western powers have long supported, in order to maintain a peculiar political stability favorable to oil extraction and export -- and I suspect the arbitrariness of its judicial system, and the ease with which persons there can be executed at whim, is part-and-parcel of the governing strategy: that is, to create an uncertainty and anxiety in the populace, useful for controlling them. My analysis is therefore that the ordinary folk there would benefit from governance that was less arbitrary and more open and transparent

[trotsky]

17. And naturally, religion playing no role whatosever...

in enforcing or perpetuating the system.

Oh, I understand you perfectly.

[struggle4progress]

18. I really have no ideas about how to sort out this story. I can't read Arabic

so the original sources aren't available to me. Moreover, as I've observed upthread, Saudi governance is non-transparent -- so we'd be unlikely to find much detail about the "charges" or "trial" or "appeal." In particular, a short public statement by the authorities that the woman was executed for "sorcery" can only raise for me more questions than it answers

At this point, I don't really know (for example) whether local Saudis were really concerned about "sorcery." I don't know if there's some translation issue here: perhaps the woman was actually executed for unauthorized medical practices? I don't know whether there's any backstory about her prior interactions with the establishment; perhaps she was feisty and argumentative and simply offended the local patriarchs? I don't know whether her sentence was based on local interpretations of Islamic law or whether a particular judge used his ability to order execution based on undefined "judge's knowledge"

Under these circumstances, it seems appropriate to me to observe that Saudi Arabia has no written penal code and that 'witchcraft and sorcery' are not defined as crimes in Saudi Arabia

Do feel free to shed further light on the case, by providing further information if you can

[trotsky]

19. "'witchcraft and sorcery' are not defined as crimes in Saudi Arabia"

Nope, apparently they aren't.

They are crimes in Islam, however. Or at least in certain peoples' interpretation of the religion.

[struggle4progress]

11. ... Saudi Arabia has no penal code, and judges can issue death sentences ... on a "discretionary

basis" for any act that a judge considers merits the death penalty, even where those acts are not defined as criminal offenses ...

Saudi Arabia: Criminal Justice Strengthened
Shura Council Approves Legal Aid Program
January 14, 2010
http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/01/14/saudi-arabia-criminal-justice-strengthened

[Vehl]

13. Imagine the MSM outcry if say...Iran had done this?

America is making a big mistake by being so selectively offended(or not offended) about human rights