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Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:51 PM

Yes, I do have proof that god does not exist.

121 replies, 14813 views

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Reply Yes, I do have proof that god does not exist. (Original post)
cleanhippie Apr 2013 OP
rexcat Apr 2013 #1
AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #2
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #4
Deep13 Apr 2013 #30
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #42
edhopper Apr 2013 #74
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #82
edhopper Apr 2013 #87
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #97
edhopper Apr 2013 #98
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #99
edhopper Apr 2013 #100
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2013 #102
edhopper Apr 2013 #103
Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #22
immoderate Apr 2013 #3
Name removed Apr 2013 #5
rug Apr 2013 #7
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #9
mr blur Apr 2013 #11
rug Apr 2013 #12
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #24
rug Apr 2013 #26
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #32
rug Apr 2013 #33
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #48
rug Apr 2013 #65
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #67
rug Apr 2013 #68
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #69
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #34
rug Apr 2013 #36
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #43
rug Apr 2013 #44
Sekhmets Daughter Apr 2013 #75
rug Apr 2013 #76
Sekhmets Daughter Apr 2013 #77
goldent Apr 2013 #80
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #13
cbayer Apr 2013 #15
Hissyspit Apr 2013 #18
Zoeisright Apr 2013 #21
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #23
On the Road Apr 2013 #6
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #10
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2013 #25
rug Apr 2013 #8
Deep13 Apr 2013 #28
rug Apr 2013 #31
Deep13 Apr 2013 #38
rug Apr 2013 #39
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #110
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #46
rug Apr 2013 #66
corkhead Apr 2013 #14
A Simple Game Apr 2013 #16
Soylent Brice Apr 2013 #20
dimbear Apr 2013 #17
sakabatou Apr 2013 #19
Deep13 Apr 2013 #27
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #29
Hissyspit Apr 2013 #35
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #37
Hissyspit Apr 2013 #40
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #41
Marrah_G Apr 2013 #47
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #50
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #54
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #57
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #59
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #70
lindysalsagal Apr 2013 #45
cleanhippie Apr 2013 #49
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #51
cleanhippie Apr 2013 #52
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #56
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #60
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #71
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #72
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #83
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #85
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #86
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #88
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #89
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #90
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #91
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #92
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #93
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #94
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #95
lindysalsagal Apr 2013 #105
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #106
lindysalsagal Apr 2013 #107
goldent Apr 2013 #108
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #109
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #53
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #58
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #73
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #84
lindysalsagal Apr 2013 #79
goldent Apr 2013 #81
Jim__ Apr 2013 #104
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #111
Jim__ Apr 2013 #114
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #115
Jim__ Apr 2013 #121
gateley Apr 2013 #55
Anonymousecoview Apr 2013 #61
gateley Apr 2013 #63
Anonymousecoview Apr 2013 #64
HeiressofBickworth Apr 2013 #62
lindysalsagal Apr 2013 #78
LTX Apr 2013 #96
kwassa Apr 2013 #101
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #112
LTX Apr 2013 #116
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #117
LTX Apr 2013 #118
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #119
cleanhippie Apr 2013 #120
goldent Apr 2013 #113

Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:53 PM

1. ...



That's a good one. Great find!

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:02 PM

2. Doesn't exist? What if I still want to believe that he is a male bipod who looks like me,

 

except for the invisible part?

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:36 PM

4. I have stopped believing in absolutes on some things.

 


If humans exist then other beings must exist someplace in the universe...possibly in our own solar system.

Whether a being comprised of energy exists who am I to say? Perhaps if one or many do exist they have no need to communicate with us, or if they are given to the impulse perhaps they are presently and have been screwing with humankind for millennium.

It would be an interesting joke to make the biologicals dance for the ethereal pleasure of eternal beings. No?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:21 PM

30. your logic just gave me a neck injury.

Whatever energy beings you think might exist, they are not gods.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #30)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:37 PM

42. Never said they were, but

 

What if that is what they wanted humankind to believe.

"Dance, human, dance!"


On edit: please don't bring up the great old ones!

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:27 PM

74. Your reading habits

(which i assume from your pen name) may lead you to some wonderful speculation.
But Isaac would be the first to tell you that your first statement is a conclusion without evidence and therefore cannot be given.
Also "a being comprised of energy" is highly problematic.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #74)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 09:18 PM

82. And?

 

Last edited Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)

[strike]To speculate that human beings are the only beings in the universe shows both arrogance and a childish form of conceptualization. [/strike]

Also "a being comprised of energy" is highly problematic.


Perhaps.

Humans are really in their infancy in understanding the universe. A being of energy may be problematic, but it does not have to mean their existence is impossible.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #82)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:31 PM

87. You are not answering my reply

When you say "must exist" that is not speculation, that is an absolute.

Is it probable that life exists elsewhere? Yes. Is it possible for there to be intelligent life? Yes.
Do we have any evidence that it is so? No.
So for you to insist that there is life, perhaps even in our solar system is pure speculation.

So do you still stand by:
"If humans exist then other beings must exist someplace in the universe...possibly in our own solar system. "?

The physics of a being of pure energy is highly problematic, since it would need to circumvent a few physical laws of the Universe.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #87)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 06:35 PM

97. That's nice.

 

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #97)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 06:45 PM

98. Glad I could

amuse you.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #98)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 06:56 PM

99. It's not realy an amusing day.

 


It took a while to track down our niece since she was in Boston, and I am distracted.

That's nice meant: "Okay, Great."

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #99)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 07:28 PM

100. Sorry

trivial shit like this discussion really becomes meaningless on days like this.
I responded before i was completely aware of the events.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #100)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:24 PM

102. No offense taken.

 


Everything is fine on our end, and my niece was studying in her dorm room.

Okay, so IF there are other beings, and I meant not necessarily sentient in our solar system since there is always the possibility of something under the ice of Europa , then perhaps they are hopefully smarter than mankind can be.

Perhaps they exist, know about Earth, and want nothing to do with us.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #102)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:25 PM

103. I think the possibility

of life elsewhere in the Universe is probable. Intelligent life is an unknown. But because of the absence of any radio signal detected from anywhere, it would seem that intelligent, technologically sophisticated life is rare if it exists at all.

(you could always have a super intelligent whale like species for instance, that would have no need to form a civilization or technology)

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:36 PM

22. A REAL one to worship should be a tripod....

 

....just saying...

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:07 PM

3. I have proof that you don't!

 

But I won't show it to you, Rune.

--imm

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:47 PM

7. Welcome to DU!

 

Last edited Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

On edit: You may want to check out this Group as well: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1221

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:52 PM

9. i think it was quite clever.

 

provocative though, huh?

welcome home!

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

11. Welcome. However, what you say is nonsense.

 

I don't have to prove that it's nonsense. You can't prove that it isn't. It's my belief that it's nonsense and if you mock my belief you're a bigot.

If you stick around, that's all you need to remember to take part.

Oh, that and that the Jury system is your friend, they'll back you up - they're afraid someone will think they're anti-religion, which is A Crime.

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Response to mr blur (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:11 PM

12. There's that warm welcome that makes this Group a beacon of civility.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:53 PM

24. It looks like Name Removed has already been escorted from the building

A shame too, I think s/he would have fit right in here in the Religion group.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:05 PM

26. It doesn't excuse the comment.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:29 PM

32. Nothing to excuse

Someone wading straight into the Religion group exhibiting the familiarity of an old-timer is going to get what they get.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #32)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:32 PM

33. What familiarity?

 

The post disagreed with the OP and got the usual sullen reply.

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Response to rug (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:21 PM

48. The aforementioned poster, now nuked

knew exactly which group to go to, which hot button thread to post in, and which poster to pick at, all while playing the rather predictable part of a grievously persecuted believer. That person has been around the DU block a few times, and it seemed pretty obvious to me.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:36 PM

65. And you know this how?

 

That was his first post. The next four were in C&O which resulted in the tombstone.

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Response to rug (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:43 PM

67. You were on MIRT, you know how it goes

After a while, one gets a nose for trolls.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:48 PM

68. I do. It's usually more than one post.

 

In any event, some first posts are so nukeable on sight. I don't think this one was. Certainly it didn't warrant the reply it got.

His next four posts were in C&O where he posted, inter alia, that Catholics who support abortion should be excommunicated. Skinner ppred him as a malicious intruder after the hidden posts.

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Response to rug (Reply #68)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:55 PM

69. I didn't know about the posts in the C&O group, and I certainly wouldn't have

considered him nukeable just based on his post here in Religion. But that one post did make my troll sense go all tingly. To wit, he seemed to have a familiarity with the normal goings-on in this group.

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Response to rug (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:45 PM

34. We should be polite to obvious trolls? Why?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:49 PM

36. I would answer you Warren but I'm too polite.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #36)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:14 PM

43. You can't resist personal attacks, but attempt to shame others for doing

 

what you do habitually. I guess your late self exile has not improved your demeanor in the slightest.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:46 PM

44. Although, my politeness has limits.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:06 PM

75. A jury voted 5-1 to leave this post alone...

At Sun Apr 14, 2013, 09:56 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I would answer you Warren but I'm too polite.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=76167

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Rug thinks he is being clever, but anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that he called another DU'er a troll. This is a personal attack, and it was unwarranted, uncalled for, and disruptive.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:03 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Really? This place is like a day care center sometimes, in more ways than one. Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerted for implying that someone is a troll when that someone implied someone else is a troll? The mind boggles.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Another alerter too lazy to select the exact reply in which rug called someone a troll....thus, I refuse to hide something this innocuous. I am thoroughly sick of silly alerts by even sillier DUers
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think Warren can handle this.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #75)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:25 PM

76. Thanks.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #76)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:26 PM

77. You're welcome....

I always prefer debate to silly censorship.

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Response to rug (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:23 PM

80. "There's that warm welcome that makes this Group a beacon of civility."



I think my first "welcome" focused mainly on the fact that some "horrible" people were recently expelled.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:26 PM

13. I welcome you to Du but remember everyone has a different opinion on faith.

 

We should always respect that.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

15. Welcome to DU and to the religion group.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:57 PM

18. Nonsense.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:27 PM

21. Wrong.

Sounds like he hit a nerve there.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is NO proof for the existence of any type of god. Philosophical proofs are not physical proofs and they are not scientific. You make the claim; you back it up. That's the way science and reality work.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:46 PM

23. "There are many proofs" all of which are considered uninteresting to modern philosophy

 

So which one are you going to confound us with? Ontological? Cosmological? Teleological? Lets roll!

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

6. Mr Fiborg Has Succeeded

in putting religion and atheism on the same playing field. Whether that is what he was after is another matter.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:53 PM

10. i wouldn't take him at face value..

 

..since he was teasing, and all.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:54 PM

25. And that's okay

If both were forced to be subjected to the same critical analysis, I think many believers would not be happy with the results.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:48 PM

8. Straw man argument.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

28. how so? nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:24 PM

31. "It is perfect and irrefutable."

 

I don't think any attempt to prove the existence of a God has claimed that. To the contrary, the proofs routinely acknowledge that any attempt to prove the infinite by the finite is inherently imperfect.

"You cannont see it or detect it in any way."

He's conflating evidence of God with proof of God.

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Response to rug (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:55 PM

38. proof is enough evidence to exclude other possibilities.

in this case there is no evidence of god and, therefore, no proof.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #38)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:58 PM

39. It depends on what you're trying to prove.

 

I don't think there are any evidence based proofs of God.

What you will end up doing is arguing evidentiary standards and types of evidence, not the existence of God.

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Response to rug (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:18 PM

110. true but kant tried to argue that divine imperatives..

 

..were the source of imperative laws like the natural laws. i checked out your other link on natural laws but when it comes to human behavior it seems to me that matters are further complicated than 'simple' relativity and quantum mechanics..

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Response to rug (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:14 PM

46. I think it's God Himself that 'his proof' is being compared to

Perfect, cannot be seen, cannot be deduced etc. But people still say they are convinced of the existence of this perfect God.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #46)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:37 PM

66. I'm sure that's his intent but his grammar leads elsewhere.

 

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

14. I have absolute proof there is a god:

Sarah Palin is not our Vice President.

THE END

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Response to corkhead (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:44 PM

16. I have absolute proof there is a devil: Sarah Palin could have been our Vice President. n/t

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #16)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:15 PM

20. ftw

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

17. Whenever you find yourself in that position, you face a difficult choice. Should you go

patent.......... or copyright?

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:10 PM

19. I am going to steal that.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:18 PM

27. outstanding nt

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

29. Interesting and logical, but there is no proof either way.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:49 PM

35. He knows that.

There's no proof it is or is not turtles all the way down, either.

It's one way to deal with the Burden of Proof fallacy.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:52 PM

37. I never believed in any Burden of proof. You believe or you don't.

 

Nothing in this life is certain except death and taxes, but i hope and believe there is a heaven. I would like to party for eternity.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:03 PM

40. Burden of Proof Fallacy:

Saying that the burden of proof lies not with the person making the claim, but with someone else to disprove.

"The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not make it valid.

i.e. 'Bertrand declares that a teapot is, at this very moment, in orbit around the Sun between the Earth and Mars, and that no one can prove him wrong his claim is therefore a valid one.'"

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:20 PM

41. Thanks for clarrifying it.

 

I think it is a faulty idea. If I say the moon is made of cheese and say you have to disprove that it seems silly. I say there is a God and you have to prove me wrong seems silly to me.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:17 PM

47. If there is a God, let me put this to you:

People get very excited about miracles and the miracle of prayer. Someone's cancer goes into remission and it's a miracle.

YET.... time after time throughout history people by the 100's of thousands, even millions have died in horrific ways. What, no miracle for them? Is god only capable of doing little tiny things? I don't get it.

I just have to wonder, where this all good, almighty being was while millions were slaughtered during the holocaust, in Serbia, in Kosovo, in Rwanda, etc. Was he on vacation?

It just honestly makes zero sense to me unless God is an evil fucking bastard, an uncaring voyeur or an absent landlord.

I just cannot rationalize it at all. I've heard all the explanation from my very Catholic family and no.... none of it makes no sense to me.

I remember the night my nephew died of Tay Sachs after 4 years of nothing (and I do mean nothing, but pain) and the priest shows up at the house talking about God's will....... I gotta say, I wanted to punch him.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:45 PM

50. I don't believe miracles happen today.

 

I do not think God decides who lives, dies, gets sick, or is rich and famous. I pray to God for strength and forgiveness. I believe God is with us but we make our own choices. But that is just my humble opinion.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:01 PM

54. Did they use to happen?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:29 PM

57. I believe that Jesus made miracles.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:55 PM

59. But not the Old Testament ones?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #59)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:25 AM

70. Some I would say yes and some i would say were allegory.

 

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:55 PM

45. To everyone: What would proof of God look like?

I'm just curious. What would it take to make non-believers believe?

FWIW: I put "God" right up there with Santa, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, the Great Pumpikin, and Unicorns.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #45)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:30 PM

49. Empirical is what it would look like.

Something verifiable/falsifiable. Anything less is nonsense.


Simple, really.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:49 PM

51. so you think when we die there is nothing?

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 07:51 PM

52. I've seen nothing that supports the idea that there is.

Last edited Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)

If you have something that does, then please share.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #52)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:25 PM

56. Just faith that there is a heaven. Sorry I have no inside knowlege.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:56 PM

60. No hell?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #60)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:26 AM

71. I do not believe in hell. I think almost all souls make it to heaven.

 

The few exceptions I believe God makes them cease to exist.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #71)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:48 AM

72. So this heaven is crowded with billions of individual former people?

 

Presumably there are other sentient beings in this universe, are they allowed in? Where is this heaven? Isn't it going to get boring? Can you have hobbies, or is it just bliss all day long? Are my dogs excluded?

Since we apparently just get to make stuff up regarding god etc. wouldn't it be more comforting to adopt a reincarnation viewpoint?

If there is no hell except apparently for hitler level baditude, and that is just termination, what motivation is there to not be a selfish asshole in this world?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:46 AM

83. I am sorry to get back late on this but all I can say is I do not know

 

what heaven is. But yes I believe in it. I believe animals are there.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #83)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:14 PM

85. Doggie heaven!

 

Cool.
But I am still confused. In this heaven, wherever it is, is your "personality" preserved?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #85)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:17 PM

86. I would imagine so!

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #86)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:51 PM

88. So do babies go to heaven?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #88)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:53 PM

89. I would think they do.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #89)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:53 PM

90. What personality do they have for eternity?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #90)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:56 PM

91. I can not answer that but it is something to think about.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #91)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:04 PM

92. maybe god can make one up for them?

 

What about people with dementia? What personality do they get for eternity? What about people who were suicidally uncomfortable with themselves, are they stuck for eternity with that mess?

Personally I think a metaphysics that has our individual "souls" merging back into some cosmic meta-physical uber soul is a little less problematic, although it has the disadvantage of being remarkably similar to the "lights out you're dead" atheistic view.

Maybe the "hindu" branch of bronze age theology got it right in terms of just so stories to make us less anxious about death?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #92)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:08 PM

93. I would think you don't have all of your old problems from earth when you get into heaven.

 

How much we change when we get there is a guess. Your guess is as good as mine.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #93)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:41 PM

94. Insane from birth. What "personality" survives for eternity?

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #94)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:50 PM

95. i do not know.

 

What will be will be!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #95)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:05 PM

105. Is there Nutella?

Cause I gotta have Nutella.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #105)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:10 PM

106. If you want it there than i am sure it will be there.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #106)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:18 PM

107. OH: So Heaven is whatever you want? No wonder you believe in it! It's GOOD!

I'm gonna start believing that I live in a nutella factory!

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:39 PM

108. "OH: So Heaven is whatever you want? No wonder you believe in it! It's GOOD!"

This is probably as good as a description as any.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:41 PM

109. Go for it!

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:00 PM

53. Yes of course. You die, you're dead, done, gone. Lights off.

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:33 PM

58. I hope there is more!

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #58)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:49 AM

73. You can hope all you want but I suggest you make the most of this life here.

 

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:47 AM

84. Good advice!

 

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #45)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:29 PM

79. No straight answers here. Guess we have no idea what we're looking for.

Exactly what I expected to happen, since deep down, "God" is just wishful thinking, and totally imaginary.

But it was an interesting little experiment. Thanks for the responses.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #45)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:39 PM

81. If we are talking about proofs come up by humans...

and not God appearing are acting in physical form...

I would say it would take rigorous scientific proof. Even with that, I would say some small-ish percentage of non-believers would not buy it.

“Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:32 PM

104. Kurt Gödel, probably the top logician of the 20th century, thought it would look like ...

... this:

Ax. 1. {P( φ ) ∧ ▢ ∀ x (φ (x) → ψ (x))} → P( ψ )
Ax. 2. P( ¬ φ ) ↔ ¬ P( φ )
Th. 1. P( φ ) → ◇ ∃ x ( φ (x) )
Df. 1. G(x) ⇔ ∀ φ (P ( φ ) → φ (x) )
Ax. 3. P(G)
Th. 2. ◇ ∃ x G(x)
Df. 2. φ ess x ⇔ φ (x) ∧ ∀ ψ ( ψ (x) → ▢ ∀ x ( φ (x) → ψ (x) ) )
Ax. 4. P( φ ) → ▢ P( φ )
Th. 3. G(x) → G ess x
Df. 3. E(x) ⇔ ∀ φ ( φ ess x → ▢ ∃ x φ (x) )
Ax. 5. P(E)
Th. 4. ▢ ∃ x G(x)


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Response to Jim__ (Reply #104)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:26 PM

111. not everything mathematical is also empirical.

 

godel's theorems are true within the axiomatic framework of assumptions that make arithmetic go, but can't be generalized to all number systems or to just any real phenomenon.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #111)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:59 AM

114. That's not a mathematical theorem.

It's Gödel's logical proof for the existence of god.

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Response to Jim__ (Reply #114)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 07:51 AM

115. ah so.. i had no idea he tinkered so deeply with metaphysics..

 

sadly for godel, logical proofs don't lend themselves well to metaphysics. my reading of the criticisms of his proof lie, as they almost always do in such matters, in the axioms assumed at the outset.

for instance, one may debate the following assumption all day long without progress.. in fact that's more or less what we do around here..

Axiom 3: The property of "being God-like", G is a positive property.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #115)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:39 PM

121. The argument was offered here only as a response to the question in post #45.

The post asked, what would proof of god look like? The argument is an example.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:24 PM

55. Here's my proof:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

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Response to gateley (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 09:12 PM

61. The Blessed Trinity? Not

 

Human beings make mistakes... but the human spirit is capable of rising above them. ie. Anne Frank after watching her family murdered by Nazi tyrants wrote, "I still believe in the human spirit."

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Response to Anonymousecoview (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:24 PM

63. And that book bu Viktor Frankl - inspirational and awe-inspiring. I'm not sure I'd

be capable of that hope and forgiveness.

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Response to gateley (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:27 PM

64. I hear you

 

inspirational people out there

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:20 PM

62. Reminds me of a brief (and I do mean brief)

conversation I had many years ago with a Jehovah's Witness who knocked at my door. After informing her I am an atheist, she asked how I could believe there is no god. I told her I accepted it on faith. She didn't want to talk with me any more.

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Response to HeiressofBickworth (Reply #62)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:27 PM

78. The last time the jehovah's knocked on my door, I asked them to grab the end of the 12'X20'carpet I

had rolled up in the entranceway, having just ripped it off the hardwood livingroom floor with my bare hands.

They declined, and never knocked on my door again.

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Response to cleanhippie (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:02 PM

96. Proof is for logic, mathematics, and whiskey.

I'm not sure what the point of the missive in the o/p actually is. Mr. Friborg has hidden "proof" that god does not exist, and that is to be (satirically) juxtaposed against . . . what? Hidden "proof" that god does exist? Beyond the various historical vanities by which god was allegedly "proved" by logic, I know of no one who claims to have such proof, hidden or not.

If there is some other point being made, such as science "proves" its contentions and religion does not, then the missive is just wrong. Science does not deal in "proof." It deals in hypothesis, theory, supporting evidence, and disproof. Perhaps this should have been phrased "I have evidence that god does not exist, but I won't show it to you." But that wouldn't be quite as definitive a quip, I guess.

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Response to LTX (Reply #96)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:59 PM

101. great post!

"I have evidence that god does not exist, but I won't show it to you".


LOL

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Response to LTX (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:35 PM

112. there's another layer of satire..

 

you rightly point out the difference between proof and evidence, but all too often the demand is that 'you cannot *prove* god *doesn't* exist'.. when atheists invariable point out that the onus is on the believer to 'prove' (using their terminology) their extraordinary claim, they demur.

iow i think the OP was playing with the relentless and willful misunderstanding of 'proof'. you're preaching to the choir to point out the inconsistency to atheists who must repeatedly explain that very same distinction to believers during the course of debate. that's part of the joke.. ..

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #112)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:18 AM

116. Doesn't that still come full circle to evidence?

Saying that "you cannot prove god doesn't exist" is equivalent to saying "you cannot disprove god," an entirely appropriate point for the scientific construct, and not at all a misunderstanding of the relationship between science and "proof."

To which the proper response remains, you have no supporting evidence for your hypothesis that god does exist.

So in context, the quip itself should still properly be "I have evidence that god doesn't exist, but I won't show it to you." Which remains a rather deflated quip, since the entire scientific edifice is built on evidence of natural, as opposed to supernatural, explanation, i.e. evidence that god is not an effective explanation for the phenomenon being considered. Adding one more piece of evidence, or one more naturally explained phenomenon, and then declaring it hidden, seems to fail most rudimentary tests of effective satire.

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Response to LTX (Reply #116)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:26 AM

117. ah but it's a *joke* .. so no, because it wouldn't be as funny.

 

there is no 'proper' or 'properly'. he's making fun of the constant refrain from believers, and their willful and continued misunderstanding of basic distinctions between empirical evidence, scientific theories, and logical proofs when arguing for their god, or against atheists.

i think we've all seen this conversation from time to time.

the word 'proof' is needed because the demands for 'proof' or claims of 'proof' *are* the joke.

i think you're thinking about this too much.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #117)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:08 AM

118. Maybe. But if the "joke" is

premised on a misrepresentation of the position held by your erstwhile opponent, it's a fairly juvenile "joke." Like I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with the statement that science has not, and perhaps cannot, disprove god (or, in your phrasing, that it cannot prove that god doesn't exist). So making fun of this particular "constant refrain" from believers is rather like making fun of the scientific method itself. But then, maybe self-parody was the point after all.

As for the "willful and continued misunderstanding of the basic distinctions between empirical evidence, scientific theories, and logical proofs," it certainly seems at times to be as epidemic in the atheist community as it is in the theist community. The demands for "proof" of god, after all, seem to emanate from the atheist side of the equation.

I don't know, maybe I just find bumper-sticker snark an unsatisfying form of humor.

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Response to LTX (Reply #118)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:12 AM

119. well i chuckled.

 

parse it to pieces if you want, but the fact remains..

..you just don't *get the joke*.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #119)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:29 AM

120. The point is that he can feel superior to everyone.

And that is most important, not the point being made in the OP.

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Response to LTX (Reply #96)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:42 AM

113. Good catch

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