How can they torture me in hell?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

If I don't have a body?

Stolen from Lin Yutang, The Importance of Living, Chapter:Why I am a Pagan. 1936.

Son of Christian missionaries who abandoned the faith.

[BlueJazz]

1. They give you a Body.

[DreamGypsy]

6. Really?? Even if you're not Gregor Samsa??

Last page after Gregor has uh, croaked...

from Introducing Kafka, also known as R. Crumb's Kafka, is an illustrated biography of Franz Kafka by David Zane Mairowitz and Robert Crumb. The book includes comic adaptations of some of Kafka's most famous works including The Metamorphosis...

[Phillip McCleod]

16. i love me some crumb.

i find his work to be queerly non-polarizing. he's a sexist pig, but because his idea of beauty is so open-minded he flatters everyone, and ridicules his own preoccupation with sex and in particular his obsession with a.. put delicately, baroque.. indelicately, plump.. female body type.

..there's that theory, and then there's this..

he's damn talented and funnier than shit.

[DreamGypsy]

18. I Married R. Crumb...

...well, not me, but Aline Kominsky-Crumb did, and she admitted it in an article with that title in Newsweek, March 10 2005:

<Interviewer> In a recent interview he described himself as an "ineffectual individual," which is surprising for someone with such a prodigious output. Do you think he could survive without a woman like yourself in his life?

<Aline> No, he wouldn't. He'd be dead without me. [Laughs.] When I met him his life was such a wreck. He's really a soft guy. He just wants to be liked too much. When he says ineffectual, he just can't say no to people. There are always parasites ready to jump on somebody like that. So I'm the bad cop.

<Interviewer> He's always been criticized for being misogynistic and racist. You live with him. Is there any truth to that?

<Aline> Not at all. People just don't get satire. He pokes fun at every single stereotype in our society equally. He touches all the tender points of people's innate racism and sexism and ethnocentric attitudes which are all there just under the surface. When he does a thing about the "The Family That Lays Together Stays Together," anyone who thinks that he's proposing that people should indulge in incest would have to be pretty dumb.

[Phillip McCleod]

22. awesome. \n

[dimbear]

2. It's a lot like the army. You're issued one. n/t

edit: see above.

[hrmjustin]

3. Many Christians( I am not one of them) believe you get your body back so you can be

tormented forever. I don't believe in hell.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. a physical body?

[hrmjustin]

5. Yes they do. Many believe that when all the stuff in revelation is done all humans have their bodies

back and live in heaven or hell with them. Your boy would not come with ailments so you would never get sick.

I just think it is your soul that goes to heaven but you never know. I just don't believe in hell.

[Phillip McCleod]

24. my path to non-belief started in hell.

it was easy.. didn't even need to read 'paradise lost' or 'grapes of wrath' first. wouldn't have anyway.. i was still reading 'the hardy boys' when i decided the devil was like an evil santa.. he was a threat my parents used to scare me into .. in my case .. not shoplifting, again. a common tween phenomenon, of which i was no exception.

after that i eventually *did* read 'paradise lost' and 'grapes of wrath' .. and now i'm an atheist.

[hrmjustin]

25. I just never really like the idea of the place.

Just does not seem logical that God would want us to suffer forever if we did not follow this rule and that. I think the church used to push hell when death was no longer a punishment that people feared.

[Phillip McCleod]

27. logical.

but there is also the beliefs themselves that shape individual behavior in society, how hell .. in a sense .. shapes behavior and actions.

for instance jihadists believe they'll automatically get into heaven if they die for the cause. is it their desire for heaven or their fear of hell .. indoctrinated into their sweet little heads as children .. that motivates them? terror. horror. horror. terror. zombies. apocalypse. it's their world.. tell me it's not hell that motivates them more than desire for some virgins and some oh so very very remote god.

[hrmjustin]

28. Humanity needs a few more centuries to evolve.

[gordianot]

32. Several millennium if we survive that long.

[LiberalAndProud]

7. It's part of the Apostle's Creed.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. so these physical bodies have to be physically somewhere

which means that hell, or heaven, have to be physical places that contain, collectively, billions of bodies, from this planet alone, for eternity - so they have to have near infinite capacity for the billions and billions more bodies that are going to pop in.

Seems to be just a bit improbable.

[hrmjustin]

9. We never said it was logical but a matter of faith.

Who knows what happens but I hope there is a heaven.

[Gore1FL]

10. I hope that there is, too.

There are a lot of people I want to see again. Frankly, I'd kind of like to watch humanity advance, too. I'm not very confident, though that I'll get to do those things. Frankly, if Christians are right, I'll be standing in the "St. Thomas" line. I do hope you see me there.

In either case, this life thing is pretty cool!

[No Vested Interest]

17. I think the resurrected bodies will be

similar to the resurrected body of Christ when He appeared to His Mother Mary, Mary Magdalen and the apostles after His Resurrection., i.e., He was able to go through doors and appear and disappear. The bodies will be perfect - without imperfections.

Heaven is a matter of faith as is hell. I believe it will be very different from what we imagine, we humans being limited in our imaginations.

Heaven will include the Beatific Vision; hell will be the absence of the Beatific Vision.
Many believe that at the moment of death all are given a last choice.
For that reason, I personally believe that few choose hell, but perhaps throughout all of humanity, some have made that choice.

I too look forward to seeing others in Heaven, especially my spouse, but also my ancestors, as I have some unanswered questions to ask them

[hrmjustin]

19. That is a good way of putting it. I still have a hard time believing in hell.

[No Vested Interest]

21. That's all right.

We're all just where we are.
Likely doesn't pertain to you anyway.
I believe in hell not just as a matter of faith, but also as necessary for perfect justice, as God is all-Just.

[Mariana]

23. Didn't Christ still have his injuries after his resurrection?

IIRC, he displayed his wounds to prove his identity. The resurrection process, in his case at least, didn't heal them or reverse them.

[No Vested Interest]

42. It's true that Christ revealed his wounds to Thomas,

according to the Gospels.
I presume that was because Thomas had a need to see them, in order to believe.

Whether He had them before or after that instance, I have no idea. After all, He was/is the God/Man.

[Phillip McCleod]

29. ah.. but you said that you didn't believe in hell because it wasn't 'logical'..

..

?!?

..

gotcha.

[hrmjustin]

30. Yeah you did get me on that one.

hell just seems less logical. I know it doesn't make sense but I just like the idea of heaven without hell.

[Phillip McCleod]

35. i think i know what you mean.

my own path meandered somewhat before disillusionment set in, thanks to beatnik parents. in those times of my life when i did believe in heaven, after the age of about 13 it was a heaven without hell.

[hrmjustin]

36. It goes in waves for me.

Sometime my faith is strong other times it is not. But that is life.

[Phillip McCleod]

38. i don't believe my faiths were ever strong.

maybe that's why there's more than one of them in my checkered 'spiritual' past.

[hrmjustin]

39. That is why I always thought God takes us as we are.

My advice to anyone is believe what makes sense to you. Don't let anyone push something on you because you will regret it. Just follow the heart.

[Phillip McCleod]

40. what if hell makes sense?

what if escaping hell *for sure* by blowing up some innocent people 'makes sense'?

that's the whole conundrum, innit?

[hrmjustin]

41. That we live in a screwed up world.

All of our religions are in need of reformations.

[Phillip McCleod]

45. you have a gift for understatement, my friend. \n

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Ah of course, off into ineffability.

Even so, what body does the stillborn grossly deformed baby get? What mind? Does it ever occur to you that you believe in feel good fairy tales?

[hrmjustin]

49. I will be honest sometimes the thought does occur but I do believe in it.

[Phillip McCleod]

20. thank you this was my 1st thought..

..if this was true then hell is falsifiable. either all these dead people exist *physically* somewhere in spacetime, or they don't. period. there's no room for other ways of thinking about that neat little loophole. if they do exist somewhere, then where? if it's not on this planet, then how do the dead people get there? one cannot *get* one's body back.. god or no god, that's just not going on anywhere in this universe, and it's not on the table for discussion afaic.

if hell is going on in this universe, then truly the onus is on believers in hell to *prove it*, or accept culpability for the negativity that this evil concept has rained down on humanity for far too long. it is no comfort to me to think of hitler in hell..

..sweet oblivion is heaven or hell, depending on whether or not you're good with your SELF.

[Blue4Texas]

54. With or without

The cosmetic surgeries?

[XRubicon]

11. I googled how many christians have ever lived and found estimate of 7.7 billion

So heaven will need lots of room...

And hell is going to be colossal with 110 billion people having lived, 102.3 billion physical bodies being tortured forever.

[hrmjustin]

12. I don't believe in hell.

[XRubicon]

13. I don't either, I was just pointing out how ridiculous the concept of hell is.

I don't believe in heaven either... or god...

[hrmjustin]

14. I hope there is a heaven. I want to see people that I miss.

[XRubicon]

15. I hope it is there for you too. nt

[hrmjustin]

26. Hell could be you have to listen to Rush, Hannity, and Beck every moment of forever.

That is a good way to torture someone.

[Phillip McCleod]

31. 'hell is other people'

..

anyone .. anyone?

(spoiler: no salida)

[ropi]

34. Sartre

[Phillip McCleod]

37. ding ding ding!! we have a winner!

sadly, this is your prize --->

[xfundy]

33. Your flesh regenerates

over and over and over again, just so there are plenty of nerve endings to feel the horrible pain. And if you're "saved," you fly up to heaven, physically. Except with clothes on, of course, and you can write a message to th' libruls and sinners on the soles of your shoes.

Glory! Jeebus is all about loooooove. Unconditional looooooove. As long as you do exactly what the preacher-man sez.

[Thats my opinion]

43. As long as people here insist on having fun ridiculing

old fundamentalist stuff no modern progressive Christians believes,
not much serious conversation can take place.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. Would you mind defining "modern progressive Christians"?

I thought all Christians believed in hell, just like I thought all Christians believe in original sin and substitutionary atonement, since those two concepts are the starting premises and foundational beliefs of Christianity.

Please don't give me a No True Scotsman answer. Follow the rules of logic.

[Thats my opinion]

55. What is difficult for you seems to be accepting that

among millions of progressive Christians believing doctrines is not a focus. Original sin, substitutionary atonement, hell etc, have long since disappeared as concerns. They arose in the middle ages and the progressive church has gone far beyond these concerns

We are focused not on doctrines to be believed, but lives to be lived. Doing has overcome believing. Our focus is on the health of the planet, the rights of GLBTQ people, economic opportunity for all--etc. Where does this take place? In thousands of churches every week, in the seminaries of all the major denominations, in the various Councils Churches, in major publications such as The Christian Century, The National Catholic Reporter, the Center for Process Studies-, the Jesus Seminar and the Westar Institute, the Society for Biblical Research, the National Academy of Religions-- Divinity Schools like Yale, Harvard, Princeton, University of Chicago. Need I go on?

Fundamentalists and evangelicals still probably hold on to doctrines like that--and they get all the public attention, but for most of us who are not fundamentalists these old doctrines are gone. We do not say who is a Christian and who is not. Why bother with that. There are many other vital things to do in this world, and that is what we are about.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. If you don't believe in original sin, then you don't need substitutionary atonement.

That's pretty simple.

I've had xtians tell me they don't have creeds either, which is not true.

[Thats my opinion]

58. Original sin was thought up in the 3rd century

out of a neo-Platonic notion that has long since been offered to the dust bins of both philosophy and history. Substitutionary theories developed in the 11the century. You are right. No original sin ,and therefore no need for substitutionary atonement.

I cannot remember the last time I was in a church that used any creed. And when it is used it is poetry. Bishop Pike, an Anglican, said he could not say the Creed but he could sing it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. Every church I went to used the Apostles' Creed.

You go to a Protestant church that does not have a creed? Either in writing you have to subscribe to or read along with the congregation during services?

That's strange.

[trotsky]

48. There are many Christians right here on DU who believe that people will be tortured in hell.

A large majority of Democrats, and an even larger majority of Republicans believe in hell according to this Gallup poll:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx

No matter how hard you close your eyes and wish it weren't true, it is. This isn't "old fundamentalist stuff," this is MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN BELIEF.

Until you can accept that, nothing will change, and you are right - not much serious conversation can take place.

[2ndAmForComputers]

52. Silly rabbit, don't you know facts and logic = anti-Christian bigotry?

[Warren Stupidity]

50. New! Improved! Less Ridiculous Woo!

OK then.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

57. Too funny!!!

They would insist that their religion is kind and loving and they ignore the judgmental and hateful parts. They would insist you can believe anything and be a Christian. They would insist that every word Jesus allegedly said was kind and loving.

And when you point out the real facts and read their scriptures back to them, they have a brick wall up.

[Thats my opinion]

59. Mind telling us who the "they" is? nt

[dimbear]

46. Serious question here. Conjoined twins. One evil. One good. What happens? n/t

[darkangel218]

51. My "hell" will be made of lizards

Small ones, big ones, everywhere. Hissing at me, crawling on me

[2ndAmForComputers]

53. I think something slightly different but along similar lines

What's pain for? To warn you about damage to your body. Or your mind. (Which is actually part of your body too, only made of electricity.)

If you're indestructible or regenerate indefinitely, what's the point?