Religion
Related: About this forumSimple Question about Culpability..
Does the fact that world cultures predominantly adhere to fairly fantastical religious beliefs *prime* some individuals to go the step too far in some direction?
..
Paranoid schizophrenia (which btw is little understood)?
Psychotic breaks (which btw have many 'causes')?
Bipolar disorder (which btw can have 'hyper-religious' manifestations in some sufferers, and is, aka, manic-depressive)
.. to name a few?
Let's *do* talk about mental health. I think it's a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion in a religious forum, because, quite, frankly..
.. it's pertinent.
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elleng
(130,834 posts)Life's not sufficiently contentious, I guess.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)i actually wonder what other people think .. this time. 
what do you think? could this be a factor in mental illness that leads to 'religiously-motivated' violence?
most liberal-minded people i know sort of say 'yes' to 'whatever' religiously or spiritually.. there's a kernel of truth to the 'portlandia' caricature, in my experience as a 'portlandia' character.
.. add to that the wide open world of right-wing fantasia, and it's anything-goes, religiously, speaking.
struggle4progress
(118,270 posts)Europe erupted in flames. The whole thing was crazy, based on a combination of greed for territorial conquest and delusions of military superiority. Enormous amounts of rational thought was devoted to war industry. The result was ten million dead and another twenty million physically or psychologically ruined. Nothing particularly good seems to have resulted from it
How do you classify that? Was it mass mental illness in your view?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Uh huh.....
Just the end of 19th century thinking and the demise of aristocracy.
struggle4progress
(118,270 posts)It is true that in central Europe and in Russia, aristocracy was abolished
But the German Noble's Association (Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft or DAG) nevertheless continued to exist during the Weimar era and throughout WWII, providing support for the Nazis, whose regime had a surprisingly medieval flavor
There seems to be wide divergence of opinion about the ultimate benefits of the Russian revolution, the conditions for which were created by the war: within a few years, Stalin had complete control of the country
It is not clear to me what you mean by "19th century thinking": colonial empires might come to mind, but they were really ended by the enormous financial ruin caused by the second world war, which made it impossible for the colonial powers to sustain their colonies
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Anyway.... I know what you mean. WWI seems really dumb in many ways. But I think that's because it changed a European way of thinking. Something's missing afterwords that we today have really forgotten. The idea that the whole continent could be at war I think was new and a bit unexpected. And I think the average person looked at the aristocracy differently afterwords. The zeitgeist of the in-between years is nothing like before the war even though empires and kings remain. And then of course, the second one is not like the very first time....
trotsky
(49,533 posts)
Warpy
(111,227 posts)and I have known people with mental illness who were believers and others who were not believers. The only difference between them was how they identified their hallucinations: angels and demons for the believers, animals, ghosts, pixies and whatever for the unbelievers.
The only difference is the language they use to describe what's going on in their heads.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts).. but somewhat i think you miss my question .. if our societies didn't encourage magical thinking, would there be so many people in the psych ward?
Warpy
(111,227 posts)Magical thinking doesn't make you go crazy although it can certainly make you act crazy. Mental illness is being seen more and more as disorders of both brain chemistry and structure, many of them with a strong genetic component.
They'd still be struggling to cope even if they were complete materialists, like one former patient who told me she was surrounded by little animals. Some of them were nice and some of them were mean. It's how she made sense of what her schizophrenia was doing to her without angels, demons, ghosts, or any other spooks.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)From Saint Simon Stylites on down to the Indian fakirs. Legions of them.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Are you trying to say that religious beliefs are just another form of psychiatric disorder? Or that certain kinds of fanatical beliefs are merely manifestations of psychiatric disorders?
Or are you saying that some psychiatric disorders lead to or include fanatical belief systems,some of which might be religiously based.
It might be helpful to know what your education/experience in mental health is in order to better understand where you are coming from here.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..tho no doubt there's a seed of a premise in the question. to answer..
no i'm not saying 'religion is crazy' OR that 'violent zealots are crazy' and not that some disorders lead to belief systems, either. i'm asking about the cultural permissiveness toward religious belief, and when we draw the line and tell somebody that they need to seek help.. *before* they experience a trigger event and hurt someone, rather than after.
believers like to believe that god(s) speak to them in various ways, send messages and omens. that's fine when it's a quiet voice that the supplicant must strive to hear by quieting their own mind. probably good mental discipline. kinda zen.
but when god is actually *talking* .. or the devil is standing vividly right in front of you telling you to kill yourself (happened to my schizophrenic cousin.. uh.. every day for years) .. then we want those individuals to find some real help. not the preacher. not the church counselor in the basement. not someone who's going to say, 'it's okay..' but someone who's gonna say, 'hey, let me help you get some real help'.
are we priming people to lose their shit, by so readily accepting everyone's beliefs as valid?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Any mental health professional worth their salt can easily distinguish between religious beliefs and psychotic states.
While there are some psychiatric patients who develop symptoms around religious themes and some religious people who develop psychiatric disorders, conflating the two would only be done by an amateur.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Religion has no reality check. It is a dangerous system of thought that not only doesn't need validation with real-world evidence, but actually teaches the idea that it's unreasonable to expect it!
I cannot help but think this makes many neutral situations bad, and far too many bad situations worse. It can feed the paranoid delusions of those who suffer from them.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)There is no way to prove Fred Phelps wrong because his beliefs are based on faith. That, I think, is just one example of how dangerous it is.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Than yes you can make a point that in some cases it can be dangerous.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Isn't that special?! Alas, "your" faith is not everybody's.
Maybe you should get out more....
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts).. and they'd be entitled to agree. i'm not asking them, i'm asking you, because i'm interested, as i said, in understanding how permissive attitudes toward anything-goes religious belief might send the wrong message to people on the edge of a trigger event. we tend to be very permissive .. 'believe anything and i'll defend your right to believe it' ..
.. i'm asking if that's wise, as a people. not as psychologists. as a people, is it wise to encourage people to believe that god might speak to them? when you can't hear god's voice, that's fine. when you can actually hear god's voice, and he's telling you to kill yourself or others, day after day .. well then 'we' usually diagnose that as a mental illness, using the DSM for our standard, so i refer to it for reference in my examples, to spur dialogue in this conversation, that's all.
rug
(82,333 posts)Given what we know now about mental illness, its biology and chemistry, to flatly suggest an extreme religious experience causes mental illness is unproductive. Without looking into it, I imagine most extreme religious experiences, like the ones you describe, are symptoms of mental illness. The religious content is the result of mental illness, not the converse.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)
rug
(82,333 posts)However, as a rule I prefer complete quotes to flattery.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Where we differ is what constitutes extreme. But were on the same page, and thats good enough.
rug
(82,333 posts)What is more likely that what you consider religious experiences are in fact symptoms of mental illness. Certainly that's what I deduce from your posting history.
Despite your attempt to portray all religious experience as mental illness, religious experience, as James determined, indeed exists. It's there for all who have the intellectual honesty to see it.
BTW, the next time you want to start a thread spewing bullshit about what I said or didn't say, don't post it in A&A where I can't respond. Have either the courage or the integrity to post it somewhere I can. That tactic cheapens the purpose of that group.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Certainly we can debate what constitutes "extreme", for not all experiences are religious nor a result of mental illness. That will be an interesting conversation, as long as you continue this honesty about your views.
As for what I post and where I post, I'll continue to do that when and where I choose, regardless of how you might feel about it. If you really must know, I posted it there because I wanted to share your opinion with that group without you cheapening the thread by spewing some back-pedaling bullshit like you did above.
You have a nice day now, ya hear! 
rug
(82,333 posts)Here in the open.
Frankly I don't give a shit where you post (although I think reddit is a better intellectual match for you) but cowardly posting edied quotes to make a spurious point is really sleazy. What you posted is not "my" post but your twisted version. A five second read of this subthread shows that.
Go run along now and post where your bullshit will not be called.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Yet you DO give a shit where I post, as evidenced by your saying so above.
And as for sleazy and cowardly, it's ironic that a lawyer would complain about such a thing. How did Whizzy fare with your representation?
rug
(82,333 posts)No, I care as little for where you post as what you post.
Now, "cleanhippie", let's hear your opinion on lawyers. I'm sure it's as well-founded and fact-based as your opinion on mental illness and religious belief.
Let's go. It's a completely open forum on full display. You can even use all the smileys and cartoons you need.
P.S., it's Wizzy, not Whizzy. He's doing fine although there is only one person I've talked to today that has less honesty and integrity.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.
"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.
"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.
"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.
"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.
rug
(82,333 posts)Try it.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts) rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe you haven't tried it because you don't know what it is.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts) AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)religion just fills a niche created by the condition.... since religions are completely made up constructs.
okasha
(11,573 posts)as any other sickness. Diabetes results from insulin deficiency. Schizophrenia, non-situational depression and bipolar disorder all result from brain chemicals such as serotonin and dopamine gone out of whack.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..those appear after the disease begins to manifest itself and can be used as diagnostic indicators. this may be verified in the DSM for anyone interested.
my question is less psychological than sociological..
if we are sincere in learning and educating about the line between fundamentalism and violent extremism, and in understanding why someone will stab four (?) choir members, or drown their children because 'god told them to', or claim to be a messiah, etc., etc..
..shouldn't we also discover how culpable we as a *society* are in permitting people to get *that close* to the line before we say, 'hey, that's crazy talk man, let's get you some help' .. ?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I mean, isn't saying that one believes a person literally rose from the dead 'crazy talk'? No, I don't mean jesus, I mean ZOMBIES! People are actually preparing for a zombie apocalypse. And to think that the dead will come back to life is 'crazy talk', right?
But when it comes to religion, believing the exact same thing is now indicative of a well-adjusted, morally upright human being.
Response to cleanhippie (Reply #30)
hrmjustin This message was self-deleted by its author.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Michael Shermer explains in his book The Believing Brain, how the brain is a belief engine.
What is crazy is to hold onto a belief in the face of contradictory evidence. Believing that there is a god? Not crazy, but unlikely. Believing that a person came back from the dead? Seems pretty crazy. YMMV.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Which is why I said above that belief in a god is not crazy, just unlikely.
Do you believe a man came back from the dead?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Do I believe they are raised from the dead today no.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Were the laws of physics different 2000 years ago?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I believe in the miracles of Jesus Christ.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)How does that work exactly? This special exception for natural laws of the universe is reasonable, that one is obviously looney tunes? What is the discriminant?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I do believe some of the other stuff from the OT. But some of it I consider allegorical. What the discriminant is human reason. As an Anglican/Episcopalian our faith is based on the three legged stool which is scripture, tradition, and human reason. I examine my faith all the time. What makes sense for me is not what makes sense for others.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)information?
I think your (mis)information on both psychiatric disorders and religiosity are leading you to some really unfounded conclusions here.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Delusions
Psychosis may involve delusional beliefs, some of which are paranoid in nature. Put simply, delusions are false beliefs which a person holds on to, without adequate evidence. It may be difficult to change the belief even with evidence to the contrary. Common themes of delusions are persecutory (person believes that others are out to harm him), grandiose (person believing that he or she has special powers or skills) etc. Depressed persons may have delusions consistent with their low mood e.g: delusions that they have sinned, or have contracted serious illness etc. Karl Jaspers has classified psychotic delusions into primary and secondary types. Primary delusions are defined as arising suddenly and not being comprehensible in terms of normal mental processes, whereas secondary delusions may be understood as being influenced by the person's background or current situation (e.g., ethnicity, religious beliefs, superstitious belief).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
Can we agree on that definition?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The key concepts here are that the belief is held despite superior evidence to the contrary and the criteria described which would make it pathological. The source for this definition is from 2011 and the one used by professionals.
Your quote is from a 1963 German paper and is not consistent with the above definition, nor used by professionals.
So, I guess we can't agree on that.
If you are going to try and make the case that religion is by it's very nature delusional and constitutes a psychiatric disorder, we will have little to discuss, unless you can present some of that superior evidence to the contrary.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)No one criteria is significant enough to diagnose a mental illness. The DSM includes multiple criteria per disorder, of which a few (dependent upon the condition) must be observed in order to satisfy a diagnosis. A person who is delusional is not necessarily a Schizophrenic. They must exhibit other positive or negative symptoms (neologisms; disordered thought, behavior or speech; depression, etc.)
I also happen to believe religious belief, generally speaking, does not satisfactorily meet the definition of "delusion".
That said, I don't think the OP is saying religious people are mentally ill, but asking whether or not religious belief may leave one predisposed towards mental illness. I'm not a clinical psychologist, but when last I sat through a course on abnormal psychology, the Stress-Diathesis theory of explaining mental disorders was very much in vogue. For those unaware, Stress-Diathesis posits, quite simply, that some people are genetically predisposed towards mental illnesses, which are "triggered" by physiological or social factors.
I don't have any--nor have I seen any--data to suggest religious belief may be a trigger for those predisposed towards mental illness, but at the same time, I don't think it an absurd question to ask. It'd be worth exploring.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Wile hyper-religiousity and delusional religious beliefs are symptoms to be assessed when making a diagnosis, not legitimate professional would make a diagnosis of psychosis (or any other psychiatric disorder) based on a person being religious or attending church.
I asked the OP what exactly he was asking and he has not gotten back to me on that. His premise remains unclear.
My position is that when people develop severe disorders, they sometimes develop religious themes in an attempt to understand what is happening to them. I have not seen any data, and do not believe, that being religious increases the risk of developing a severe psychiatric illness.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..but there are others. Don't have a copy anymore but when I get to a computer I'll try to find a link.
cbayer
(146,218 posts) Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..here's a 'pee test' link..
http://schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001540.html
..there's more by googling 'urine analysis for schizophrenia'
although i was a pysch major for a while .. two upper-div courses away.. i realized that working with people (kinda in general) wasn't the best idea for me. i think i was motivated more by trying to contextualize my own pretty extensive 2nd-hand experience with schizophrenia, with two relatives that suffer(ed) from the disorder (grandma passed away a few years ago). my cousin still struggles, and eventually it will kill him as sure as alzheimer's kills. it's a degenerative disorder.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)There aren't any, but hopefully there will be some day. Schizophrenia is a very difficult illness and I am sorry for what you and your family have been through.
One of the hardest things about both schizophrenia and alzheimer's is that people don't generally die from either one. They do die from complications of both illnesses (dangerous behavior, suicide in schiz and loss of mobility/ability to eat in alz's). It's hard to watch someone suffer. Fortunately, the meds for schiz have come a long way. Not so much for alzheimers.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)that these *symptoms* can help in diagnosis of a schizophrenia, but the combined genetic predisposition, cultural influences, and usually a trigger event cause a not-so-well-understood change in the patient's brain and body chemistry, which can be indicated, after the fact, by a urine analysis.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The hallmark of psychosis is disorganization, not necessarily strange or unorthodox thinking. My dealings with schizophrenics have been wildly different from my dealings with "true believers" (bear in mind, my experience is anecdotal). Schizophrenics are so disorganized in their thinking and behavior it is difficult to carry on a conversation. "True believers", despite their hokey views, are at least able to rationalize within their confines.
David Koresh thought he was a messiah, but I don't think for a minute he was insane. A schizophrenic would have a very difficult time organizing a top-down, authoritative cult like the Davidians.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)psychotic breaks also have triggers, and are generally have more targeted focal points for the release of stress.
moreover, i never really intended this to be a discussion of mental illness per se so much as magical thinking, and whether the privilege of magical thinking in world cultures is.. *wise*.. given our collective mental health?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Deep13
(39,154 posts)It leads to a lot of bad decisions and a lot of self-imposed misery, but it is not a disease.
