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Mon Apr 29, 2013, 11:39 PM

 

Simple Question about Culpability..

Does the fact that world cultures predominantly adhere to fairly fantastical religious beliefs *prime* some individuals to go the step too far in some direction?

..

Paranoid schizophrenia (which btw is little understood)?
Psychotic breaks (which btw have many 'causes')?
Bipolar disorder (which btw can have 'hyper-religious' manifestations in some sufferers, and is, aka, manic-depressive)

.. to name a few?

Let's *do* talk about mental health. I think it's a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion in a religious forum, because, quite, frankly..

.. it's pertinent.

65 replies, 4080 views

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Arrow 65 replies Author Time Post
Reply Simple Question about Culpability.. (Original post)
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 OP
elleng Apr 2013 #1
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #2
struggle4progress Apr 2013 #3
AlbertCat Apr 2013 #12
struggle4progress Apr 2013 #18
AlbertCat May 2013 #25
trotsky Apr 2013 #15
Warpy Apr 2013 #4
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #22
Warpy Apr 2013 #24
dimbear Apr 2013 #5
cbayer Apr 2013 #6
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #21
cbayer May 2013 #40
trotsky Apr 2013 #7
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #8
trotsky Apr 2013 #9
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #10
AlbertCat Apr 2013 #13
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #16
rug Apr 2013 #11
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #20
rug May 2013 #27
cleanhippie May 2013 #28
rug May 2013 #29
cleanhippie May 2013 #32
rug May 2013 #51
cleanhippie May 2013 #52
rug May 2013 #53
cleanhippie May 2013 #55
rug May 2013 #56
cleanhippie May 2013 #61
rug May 2013 #62
cleanhippie May 2013 #63
rug May 2013 #64
cleanhippie May 2013 #65
AlbertCat Apr 2013 #14
okasha Apr 2013 #17
Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #19
cleanhippie May 2013 #30
hrmjustin May 2013 #31
cleanhippie May 2013 #33
hrmjustin May 2013 #34
cleanhippie May 2013 #35
hrmjustin May 2013 #36
cleanhippie May 2013 #37
hrmjustin May 2013 #38
cleanhippie May 2013 #39
hrmjustin May 2013 #41
Warren Stupidity May 2013 #43
hrmjustin May 2013 #45
cbayer May 2013 #42
Warren Stupidity May 2013 #44
cbayer May 2013 #46
Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #47
cbayer May 2013 #49
Phillip McCleod May 2013 #48
cbayer May 2013 #50
Phillip McCleod May 2013 #54
cbayer May 2013 #57
Phillip McCleod May 2013 #58
Act_of_Reparation May 2013 #59
Phillip McCleod May 2013 #60
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #23
Deep13 May 2013 #26

Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Mon Apr 29, 2013, 11:54 PM

1. Trying to make trouble, eh?

Life's not sufficiently contentious, I guess.

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Response to elleng (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:09 AM

2. to be honest.. no. i'm not trying to make trouble.

 

i actually wonder what other people think .. this time.

what do you think? could this be a factor in mental illness that leads to 'religiously-motivated' violence?

most liberal-minded people i know sort of say 'yes' to 'whatever' religiously or spiritually.. there's a kernel of truth to the 'portlandia' caricature, in my experience as a 'portlandia' character.

.. add to that the wide open world of right-wing fantasia, and it's anything-goes, religiously, speaking.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 01:04 AM

3. What's your theory about (say) the causes of the first World War?

Europe erupted in flames. The whole thing was crazy, based on a combination of greed for territorial conquest and delusions of military superiority. Enormous amounts of rational thought was devoted to war industry. The result was ten million dead and another twenty million physically or psychologically ruined. Nothing particularly good seems to have resulted from it

How do you classify that? Was it mass mental illness in your view?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:47 PM

12. Nothing particularly good seems to have resulted from it

 

Uh huh.....

Just the end of 19th century thinking and the demise of aristocracy.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 03:35 PM

18. IIRC the UK House of Lords still contains some hereditary peers.

It is true that in central Europe and in Russia, aristocracy was abolished

But the German Noble's Association (Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft or DAG) nevertheless continued to exist during the Weimar era and throughout WWII, providing support for the Nazis, whose regime had a surprisingly medieval flavor

There seems to be wide divergence of opinion about the ultimate benefits of the Russian revolution, the conditions for which were created by the war: within a few years, Stalin had complete control of the country

It is not clear to me what you mean by "19th century thinking": colonial empires might come to mind, but they were really ended by the enormous financial ruin caused by the second world war, which made it impossible for the colonial powers to sustain their colonies

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #18)

Wed May 1, 2013, 02:14 AM

25. I said "demise" not eradication

 

Anyway.... I know what you mean. WWI seems really dumb in many ways. But I think that's because it changed a European way of thinking. Something's missing afterwords that we today have really forgotten. The idea that the whole continent could be at war I think was new and a bit unexpected. And I think the average person looked at the aristocracy differently afterwords. The zeitgeist of the in-between years is nothing like before the war even though empires and kings remain. And then of course, the second one is not like the very first time....

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 02:03 AM

4. I've worked in a lot of psych settings

and I have known people with mental illness who were believers and others who were not believers. The only difference between them was how they identified their hallucinations: angels and demons for the believers, animals, ghosts, pixies and whatever for the unbelievers.

The only difference is the language they use to describe what's going on in their heads.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:31 PM

22. i don't doubt your experience..

 

.. but somewhat i think you miss my question .. if our societies didn't encourage magical thinking, would there be so many people in the psych ward?

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 11:28 PM

24. Yes, there would be

Magical thinking doesn't make you go crazy although it can certainly make you act crazy. Mental illness is being seen more and more as disorders of both brain chemistry and structure, many of them with a strong genetic component.

They'd still be struggling to cope even if they were complete materialists, like one former patient who told me she was surrounded by little animals. Some of them were nice and some of them were mean. It's how she made sense of what her schizophrenia was doing to her without angels, demons, ghosts, or any other spooks.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 02:37 AM

5. Mentioning examples which are clearly sadomasochism is practically shooting fish in a barrel.

From Saint Simon Stylites on down to the Indian fakirs. Legions of them.


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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:09 AM

6. I don't understand your premise here at all.

Are you trying to say that religious beliefs are just another form of psychiatric disorder? Or that certain kinds of fanatical beliefs are merely manifestations of psychiatric disorders?

Or are you saying that some psychiatric disorders lead to or include fanatical belief systems,some of which might be religiously based.

It might be helpful to know what your education/experience in mental health is in order to better understand where you are coming from here.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:24 PM

21. a question more than a premise..

 

..tho no doubt there's a seed of a premise in the question. to answer..

no i'm not saying 'religion is crazy' OR that 'violent zealots are crazy' and not that some disorders lead to belief systems, either. i'm asking about the cultural permissiveness toward religious belief, and when we draw the line and tell somebody that they need to seek help.. *before* they experience a trigger event and hurt someone, rather than after.

believers like to believe that god(s) speak to them in various ways, send messages and omens. that's fine when it's a quiet voice that the supplicant must strive to hear by quieting their own mind. probably good mental discipline. kinda zen.

but when god is actually *talking* .. or the devil is standing vividly right in front of you telling you to kill yourself (happened to my schizophrenic cousin.. uh.. every day for years) .. then we want those individuals to find some real help. not the preacher. not the church counselor in the basement. not someone who's going to say, 'it's okay..' but someone who's gonna say, 'hey, let me help you get some real help'.

are we priming people to lose their shit, by so readily accepting everyone's beliefs as valid?

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #21)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:35 AM

40. The answer to your final question is no.

Any mental health professional worth their salt can easily distinguish between religious beliefs and psychotic states.

While there are some psychiatric patients who develop symptoms around religious themes and some religious people who develop psychiatric disorders, conflating the two would only be done by an amateur.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:51 AM

7. Many have pointed this out. I have never seen a religious believer counter it:

Religion has no reality check. It is a dangerous system of thought that not only doesn't need validation with real-world evidence, but actually teaches the idea that it's unreasonable to expect it!

I cannot help but think this makes many neutral situations bad, and far too many bad situations worse. It can feed the paranoid delusions of those who suffer from them.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:54 AM

8. Religion is dangerous? I have never had a dangerous moment with my faith.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:59 AM

9. Read what I said is dangerous about it.

There is no way to prove Fred Phelps wrong because his beliefs are based on faith. That, I think, is just one example of how dangerous it is.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:13 AM

10. Yes I see what you are saying.

 

Than yes you can make a point that in some cases it can be dangerous.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:52 PM

13. Religion is dangerous? I have never had a dangerous moment with my faith.

 

Isn't that special?! Alas, "your" faith is not everybody's.

Maybe you should get out more....

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 01:31 PM

16. Thank you for you advice.

 

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:41 PM

11. I don't think there's a psychiatrist in either hemisphere that agrees withn your premise.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:09 PM

20. my premise was framed as a question..

 

.. and they'd be entitled to agree. i'm not asking them, i'm asking you, because i'm interested, as i said, in understanding how permissive attitudes toward anything-goes religious belief might send the wrong message to people on the edge of a trigger event. we tend to be very permissive .. 'believe anything and i'll defend your right to believe it' ..

.. i'm asking if that's wise, as a people. not as psychologists. as a people, is it wise to encourage people to believe that god might speak to them? when you can't hear god's voice, that's fine. when you can actually hear god's voice, and he's telling you to kill yourself or others, day after day .. well then 'we' usually diagnose that as a mental illness, using the DSM for our standard, so i refer to it for reference in my examples, to spur dialogue in this conversation, that's all.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #20)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:19 AM

27. Henry James examined this a century ago.

 

Given what we know now about mental illness, its biology and chemistry, to flatly suggest an extreme religious experience causes mental illness is unproductive. Without looking into it, I imagine most extreme religious experiences, like the ones you describe, are symptoms of mental illness. The religious content is the result of mental illness, not the converse.

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Response to rug (Reply #27)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:42 AM

28. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness" FINALLY! WAY TO GO, RUG!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #28)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:48 AM

29. I'm flattered you quoted me.

 

However, as a rule I prefer complete quotes to flattery.

I imagine most extreme religious experiences, like the ones you describe, are symptoms of mental illness. The religious content is the result of mental illness, not the converse.

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Response to rug (Reply #29)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:58 AM

32. I'm glad we agree that religious experiences are a result of mental illness.

Where we differ is what constitutes extreme. But were on the same page, and thats good enough.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #32)

Wed May 1, 2013, 06:32 PM

51. Actually we don't.

 

What is more likely that what you consider religious experiences are in fact symptoms of mental illness. Certainly that's what I deduce from your posting history.

Despite your attempt to portray all religious experience as mental illness, religious experience, as James determined, indeed exists. It's there for all who have the intellectual honesty to see it.

BTW, the next time you want to start a thread spewing bullshit about what I said or didn't say, don't post it in A&A where I can't respond. Have either the courage or the integrity to post it somewhere I can. That tactic cheapens the purpose of that group.

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Response to rug (Reply #51)

Wed May 1, 2013, 07:01 PM

52. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

Certainly we can debate what constitutes "extreme", for not all experiences are religious nor a result of mental illness. That will be an interesting conversation, as long as you continue this honesty about your views.

As for what I post and where I post, I'll continue to do that when and where I choose, regardless of how you might feel about it. If you really must know, I posted it there because I wanted to share your opinion with that group without you cheapening the thread by spewing some back-pedaling bullshit like you did above.

You have a nice day now, ya hear!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #52)

Wed May 1, 2013, 07:33 PM

53. Only some of them. Why don't you post all of them.

 

Here in the open.

Frankly I don't give a shit where you post (although I think reddit is a better intellectual match for you) but cowardly posting edied quotes to make a spurious point is really sleazy. What you posted is not "my" post but your twisted version. A five second read of this subthread shows that.

Go run along now and post where your bullshit will not be called.

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Response to rug (Reply #53)

Wed May 1, 2013, 08:50 PM

55. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

Yet you DO give a shit where I post, as evidenced by your saying so above.

And as for sleazy and cowardly, it's ironic that a lawyer would complain about such a thing. How did Whizzy fare with your representation?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #55)

Wed May 1, 2013, 08:59 PM

56. I see you can't shake your dishonesty. It takes a small person to be able to hide behind an ellipsis

 

No, I care as little for where you post as what you post.

Now, "cleanhippie", let's hear your opinion on lawyers. I'm sure it's as well-founded and fact-based as your opinion on mental illness and religious belief.

Let's go. It's a completely open forum on full display. You can even use all the smileys and cartoons you need.

P.S., it's Wizzy, not Whizzy. He's doing fine although there is only one person I've talked to today that has less honesty and integrity.

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Response to rug (Reply #56)

Thu May 2, 2013, 08:34 AM

61. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

"religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.


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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #61)

Thu May 2, 2013, 08:48 AM

62. Integrity. It's a wonderful concept.

 

I imagine most extreme religious experiences, like the ones you describe, are symptoms of mental illness. The religious content is the result of mental illness, not the converse.


Try it.

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Response to rug (Reply #62)

Thu May 2, 2013, 08:51 AM

63. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #63)

Thu May 2, 2013, 08:53 AM

64. Integrity. It's a wonderful concept.

 

Maybe you haven't tried it because you don't know what it is.

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Response to rug (Reply #64)

Thu May 2, 2013, 09:07 AM

65. "religious experiences...are symptoms of mental illness". Your words, not mine.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:57 PM

14. I would think...

 

religion just fills a niche created by the condition.... since religions are completely made up constructs.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 01:36 PM

17. "Mental illness" is in most instances just as physical

as any other sickness. Diabetes results from insulin deficiency. Schizophrenia, non-situational depression and bipolar disorder all result from brain chemicals such as serotonin and dopamine gone out of whack.

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Response to okasha (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:02 PM

19. true there are physical symptoms of schizophrenia, but..

 

..those appear after the disease begins to manifest itself and can be used as diagnostic indicators. this may be verified in the DSM for anyone interested.

my question is less psychological than sociological..

if we are sincere in learning and educating about the line between fundamentalism and violent extremism, and in understanding why someone will stab four (?) choir members, or drown their children because 'god told them to', or claim to be a messiah, etc., etc..

..shouldn't we also discover how culpable we as a *society* are in permitting people to get *that close* to the line before we say, 'hey, that's crazy talk man, let's get you some help' .. ?

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #19)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:51 AM

30. We are completely culpable. Until religious beliefs are not given special privilege...

we are not allowed to say 'hey, that's crazy talk man, let's get you some help', or else we are considered intolerant and bigoted.


I mean, isn't saying that one believes a person literally rose from the dead 'crazy talk'? No, I don't mean jesus, I mean ZOMBIES! People are actually preparing for a zombie apocalypse. And to think that the dead will come back to life is 'crazy talk', right?

But when it comes to religion, believing the exact same thing is now indicative of a well-adjusted, morally upright human being.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #30)


Response to hrmjustin (Reply #31)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:00 AM

33. What?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #33)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:02 AM

34. Forgive me I forgot a word or two. Do you think religous belief is crazy?

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #34)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:07 AM

35. No, belief is a natural part of being a human with a brain.

Michael Shermer explains in his book The Believing Brain, how the brain is a belief engine.

What is crazy is to hold onto a belief in the face of contradictory evidence. Believing that there is a god? Not crazy, but unlikely. Believing that a person came back from the dead? Seems pretty crazy. YMMV.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #35)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:10 AM

36. There has never been evidence given to me that there is no God.

 

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #36)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:26 AM

37. Never claimed there was.

Which is why I said above that belief in a god is not crazy, just unlikely.

Do you believe a man came back from the dead?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #37)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:28 AM

38. i believe Jesus came back from the dead. I believe Jesus raised people from the dead.

 

Do I believe they are raised from the dead today no.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #38)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:34 AM

39. To me, that seems crazy.

Were the laws of physics different 2000 years ago?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #39)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:37 AM

41. An honest opinion! I believe that God allowed the laws of physics to be put aside when Jesus came.

 

I believe in the miracles of Jesus Christ.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #41)

Wed May 1, 2013, 03:20 PM

43. but you reject (some of the) other crazy horseshit in the bible.

 

How does that work exactly? This special exception for natural laws of the universe is reasonable, that one is obviously looney tunes? What is the discriminant?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #43)

Wed May 1, 2013, 03:25 PM

45. I never put it that way.

 

I do believe some of the other stuff from the OT. But some of it I consider allegorical. What the discriminant is human reason. As an Anglican/Episcopalian our faith is based on the three legged stool which is scripture, tradition, and human reason. I examine my faith all the time. What makes sense for me is not what makes sense for others.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #19)

Wed May 1, 2013, 11:39 AM

42. What are the physical symptoms of schizophrenia and in what part of the DSM would I find that

information?

I think your (mis)information on both psychiatric disorders and religiosity are leading you to some really unfounded conclusions here.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #42)

Wed May 1, 2013, 03:24 PM

44. How about the wiki definition of delusions as a starting point?

 


Delusions
Psychosis may involve delusional beliefs, some of which are paranoid in nature. Put simply, delusions are false beliefs which a person holds on to, without adequate evidence. It may be difficult to change the belief even with evidence to the contrary. Common themes of delusions are persecutory (person believes that others are out to harm him), grandiose (person believing that he or she has special powers or skills) etc. Depressed persons may have delusions consistent with their low mood e.g: delusions that they have sinned, or have contracted serious illness etc. Karl Jaspers has classified psychotic delusions into primary and secondary types. Primary delusions are defined as arising suddenly and not being comprehensible in terms of normal mental processes, whereas secondary delusions may be understood as being influenced by the person's background or current situation (e.g., ethnicity, religious beliefs, superstitious belief).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

Can we agree on that definition?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #44)

Wed May 1, 2013, 05:38 PM

46. Let's actually look at the definition from wiki's page on delusions.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.


The key concepts here are that the belief is held despite superior evidence to the contrary and the criteria described which would make it pathological. The source for this definition is from 2011 and the one used by professionals.

Your quote is from a 1963 German paper and is not consistent with the above definition, nor used by professionals.

So, I guess we can't agree on that.

If you are going to try and make the case that religion is by it's very nature delusional and constitutes a psychiatric disorder, we will have little to discuss, unless you can present some of that superior evidence to the contrary.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #46)

Wed May 1, 2013, 06:04 PM

47. I would also add

No one criteria is significant enough to diagnose a mental illness. The DSM includes multiple criteria per disorder, of which a few (dependent upon the condition) must be observed in order to satisfy a diagnosis. A person who is delusional is not necessarily a Schizophrenic. They must exhibit other positive or negative symptoms (neologisms; disordered thought, behavior or speech; depression, etc.)

I also happen to believe religious belief, generally speaking, does not satisfactorily meet the definition of "delusion".

That said, I don't think the OP is saying religious people are mentally ill, but asking whether or not religious belief may leave one predisposed towards mental illness. I'm not a clinical psychologist, but when last I sat through a course on abnormal psychology, the Stress-Diathesis theory of explaining mental disorders was very much in vogue. For those unaware, Stress-Diathesis posits, quite simply, that some people are genetically predisposed towards mental illnesses, which are "triggered" by physiological or social factors.

I don't have any--nor have I seen any--data to suggest religious belief may be a trigger for those predisposed towards mental illness, but at the same time, I don't think it an absurd question to ask. It'd be worth exploring.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #47)

Wed May 1, 2013, 06:13 PM

49. That is absolutely true.

Wile hyper-religiousity and delusional religious beliefs are symptoms to be assessed when making a diagnosis, not legitimate professional would make a diagnosis of psychosis (or any other psychiatric disorder) based on a person being religious or attending church.

I asked the OP what exactly he was asking and he has not gotten back to me on that. His premise remains unclear.

My position is that when people develop severe disorders, they sometimes develop religious themes in an attempt to understand what is happening to them. I have not seen any data, and do not believe, that being religious increases the risk of developing a severe psychiatric illness.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #42)

Wed May 1, 2013, 06:07 PM

48. well there's a pee test.. so that's an indicator..

 

..but there are others. Don't have a copy anymore but when I get to a computer I'll try to find a link.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #48)

Wed May 1, 2013, 06:18 PM

50. What pee test?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #50)

Wed May 1, 2013, 07:46 PM

54. back at a computer instead of phone..

 

..here's a 'pee test' link..
http://schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001540.html

..there's more by googling 'urine analysis for schizophrenia'

although i was a pysch major for a while .. two upper-div courses away.. i realized that working with people (kinda in general) wasn't the best idea for me. i think i was motivated more by trying to contextualize my own pretty extensive 2nd-hand experience with schizophrenia, with two relatives that suffer(ed) from the disorder (grandma passed away a few years ago). my cousin still struggles, and eventually it will kill him as sure as alzheimer's kills. it's a degenerative disorder.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #54)

Wed May 1, 2013, 09:19 PM

57. Interesting, but that is not a recognized biomarker test for schizophrenia.

There aren't any, but hopefully there will be some day. Schizophrenia is a very difficult illness and I am sorry for what you and your family have been through.

One of the hardest things about both schizophrenia and alzheimer's is that people don't generally die from either one. They do die from complications of both illnesses (dangerous behavior, suicide in schiz and loss of mobility/ability to eat in alz's). It's hard to watch someone suffer. Fortunately, the meds for schiz have come a long way. Not so much for alzheimers.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #57)

Wed May 1, 2013, 09:26 PM

58. that was my point to begin with if you scroll up.

 

that these *symptoms* can help in diagnosis of a schizophrenia, but the combined genetic predisposition, cultural influences, and usually a trigger event cause a not-so-well-understood change in the patient's brain and body chemistry, which can be indicated, after the fact, by a urine analysis.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #19)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:01 PM

59. I don't think those are good examples, to be honest

if we are sincere in learning and educating about the line between fundamentalism and violent extremism, and in understanding why someone will stab four (?) choir members, or drown their children because 'god told them to', or claim to be a messiah, etc., etc..


The hallmark of psychosis is disorganization, not necessarily strange or unorthodox thinking. My dealings with schizophrenics have been wildly different from my dealings with "true believers" (bear in mind, my experience is anecdotal). Schizophrenics are so disorganized in their thinking and behavior it is difficult to carry on a conversation. "True believers", despite their hokey views, are at least able to rationalize within their confines.

David Koresh thought he was a messiah, but I don't think for a minute he was insane. A schizophrenic would have a very difficult time organizing a top-down, authoritative cult like the Davidians.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #59)

Wed May 1, 2013, 10:07 PM

60. well this thread has taken a schizophrenic turn i didn't expect..

 

psychotic breaks also have triggers, and are generally have more targeted focal points for the release of stress.

moreover, i never really intended this to be a discussion of mental illness per se so much as magical thinking, and whether the privilege of magical thinking in world cultures is.. *wise*.. given our collective mental health?

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:44 PM

23. I may be a bit off my friend but you should not judge believers just from me.

 

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Original post)

Wed May 1, 2013, 02:22 AM

26. Um, no, religion is not an organic disorder.

It leads to a lot of bad decisions and a lot of self-imposed misery, but it is not a disease.

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