No, the Pope Didn't Just Say All Atheists Go to Heaven

[rug]

Instead, he was emphasizing the openness of the Catholic Church, which is perhaps even more important.

May 24 2013, 10:06 AM ET
David M. Perry

Around 1660, a French mathematician and theologian named Blaise Pascal set out to explain logically why one should believe in God. Whereas previous thinkers had tried to prove God's existence, Pascal chose a different path. His argument, now known as Pascal's wager, stated that if you believed in God, and there was no God, you lost nothing. But if you did not believe in God, and there was a God, you lost everything. So why not believe in God?

Did Pope Francis just lay out a wager of his own? At mass on the 22nd, he said:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

Some have reacted to this as a doctrine articulating the salvation of atheists. Having read all reported versions of Francis' homily, in both English and Italian, I do not find an explicit statement that an atheist who does that which is good, il bene in Italian, will be saved. However, Francis does emphasize the universality of Christ's redemptive power, and it is through that redemptive power that salvation becomes possible. He is clearly open to the idea that Christ may well redeem even those who are non-believers. More fully articulated, that would open up a new wager, in which whether or not one believed, one's actions in the world would determine one's access to paradise. Even the hint of such an idea from man whose spiritual power stems from being the heir to St. Peter, holder of the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, is striking. Still, that God might save those who neither believe nor participate in the sacraments is not a new idea. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, one finds the statement, "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." If God wants to save someone, they will be saved.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/no-the-pope-didnt-just-say-all-atheists-go-to-heaven/276214/

[elleng]

1. 'HAS redeemed.'

'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good.'

This agnostic lawyer asserts that what he apparently said (subject to translation, of course,) is CLEAR, The Lord has redeemed all of us.

[rug]

3. You still have to turn in the stamps if you want the prize.

[elleng]

40. HA! Trashed all those Green Stamps YEARS ago!!!

[dimbear]

41. It's a little out of place to be practical in this forum, but you can sell those on eBay.

Bring a nice price, IIRC.

[customerserviceguy]

51. Wow, that was a blast from the past

My mother used to collect them (Plaid Stamps, too) and would redeem them for things that were part of my childhood memories. I kind of miss them, but discounts for my frequent shopper card (who cares what corporate America knows about what a working-class guy spends his money on) are probably better for my bottom line.

[msongs]

2. I redeem all of you. there, now you can go to the heaven of your choice or none at all and I do NOT

threaten you with eternal damnation if you don't get off of my lawn

[Arugula Latte]

26. But do you validate parking?

[upaloopa]

4. Duh! If there ain't no god there ain't no heaven so

why would atheists go to heaven or even want to.
heaven is a construct of believers i think. They invented it and they invented the rules to get in there.
As a kid in Catholic school we were taught you had to be baptized to go to heaven but that created a problem. What about good people who were not baptized? You not only had to be baptized you had to be good. Unbaptized people who are good and did not have the opportunity to be baptized should not go to hell. So limbo was invented along with purgatory for mostly good people who were baptized but were not good enough to go straight to heaven. Purgatory is where you do time for having a slew of venial sins and no mortal sins.
Whew that was sure some invention must of took hundreds of years.

[rug]

5. Geez, nobody's making you.

You didn't happen to come across the concept of baptismus flaminis in Catholic school, did you?

[HockeyMom]

6. Then the problem with Jews

Not baptized but God's "Chosen People". So no baptism, don't believe in Jesus, so all going to HELL? The Chosen People! That was the very first one I agrued with them about, in HS.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth on that. Stopped believe as a 15 year old in Catholic school. Didn't they do way with Limbo and Purgatory now too?

Fantasy, all of it.

[rug]

8. What exactly was your grade in Catechism?

[HockeyMom]

13. Elementary or HS?

It was 99 in Elementary and I represented my school as the highest grade in NYC Elementary Schools Contest. HS? Don't quite remember, but it was either an A or B+ since I had a B+ average overall. By HS I could care less about it.

[rug]

14. What do you remember of baptism of desire?

I went to Power Memorial.

[HockeyMom]

24. I went to St. Michael's Academy

Your "sister" school. If I can remember from 50 years ago, that basically meant that people who were never baptized physically would be if they desired to live in accordance with the church's teaching, if they didn't KNOW about the Catholic Church (in the 21st Century???) they could be considered baptized if they lead a life in accordance with Catholic teachings. I seriously doubt the majority of Jews, Protestants, Non-Christians, or Atheists would fall under that in today's world.


Enough. I was done with the Catholic Church, and religion, a very, very long time ago.

[upaloopa]

11. That's another thing they teach about something

when you were a kid and them when your grown they take it away.
Like Rosanne Rosana Dana "never mind"

[demwing]

47. "heaven is a construct of believers i think"

What if you're wrong?

Better question: Why are your thoughts about "heaven" any better than a believer's belief?

[Phillip McCleod]

55. better answer..

..unlike believers evidence or the lack thereof plays a dominant role in the formation of our worldview.

That is what makes it 'better'

[LiberalEsto]

7. The first time I ever heard of Catholics, I was told I was going to hell

for not being one.

I must have been about 7. My informant was Buddy, a brat in the neighborhood who had just discovered the joys of religious "superiority." This led to a rather sophisticated exchange of views. I was from a not very religious Lutheran family, and obviously well on my way to becoming a Pagan.

Me: Who says that?

Buddy: The Pope.

Me: The Pope is a poop.

Buddy: That's a mortal sin! (almost strangles with horror waiting for God to strike me down with lightning).

Me: The Pope is a poop!

Buddy: Waaaaah! I'm telling! (runs home)

[rug]

9. Look around. The dialogue hasn't changed much.

[LiberalEsto]

10. That's very true

[Arugula Latte]

27. And the pope is still a poop.

[hrmjustin]

12. When I went to Catholic School they taught that God loved everyone and did not mention hell much.

[Arugula Latte]

28. He loves everyone, but, well, sometimes he's got to do some smiting and some slaughtering.

[hrmjustin]

29. I don't believe he does that.

[Arugula Latte]

32. Well, you're not alone. "He" only seems to get credit for stuff, never blame.

The tornado provided all sorts of examples of that way of thinking.

[hrmjustin]

33. I pray to God for strength not for things to happen. I don't believe that God decides what happens

here.

[backscatter712]

39. That all depends on how much control the elites need to exert on the peons.

If the elites feel they need to bring the hammer down, all of the sudden, God is angry, and we must all run for the confessional booths so we don't face an eternity of roasting!

[Ted Brown]

15. Why are atheists such a threat to religious folks?

Could it be that religion has nothing to offer over just ordinary people who don't buy into all their hocus pocus?

I think THIS Pope was more forthcommng than any other before. He basically said Catholic upbringing doesn't have anything to offer, not a thing. If you do good stuff while alive, you are respectable and get to the Roman Catholic fantasy of what happens when you're dead.

Maybe not that dramatic funeral, but you get there anyway. Kind of like the Pope said Roman Catholicism and Christianity means nothing but some dramatic funeral or marriage celebration. Other than that, what does Christian religion have to offer?

Just repeating what the Pope is saying, sort of.

Oh wait, the Pope wants you to believe in some 1800 year old tales of some guy 2000+ years ago now dead.......becuase you need to put money in the Pope's coffers every Sunday. I think I have that right. Correct me if I'm wrong. What else does being a Catholic have to offer other than some great pageants when you get confirmed, get married, die?

[rug]

16. What threat?

[Ted Brown]

18. Threat enough for the leader of the most Christian of faiths to bother to

bring into the fold, with sort-of silly promises.

If atheism took over the world, and Catholicism were a small minority sect, would you feel threatened? Or how would allowing atheists to run your world make you feel more or less secure? (A more basic question: why do religions have to have ANY influence in running the world?) Knowing that your religious beliefs were a minority position, as they actually ARE these days? Your Catholic and Christian beliefs are about represented by less than 20% of the human beings now alive on this planet. Does that scare you like it seemed to scare the Pope, so that he had to invite atheists into his belief system, (scam art strategy)?

[rug]

19. Lol! You think his answer to a question was made under a threat?

"Your Catholic and Christian beliefs are about represented by less than 20% of the human beings now alive on this planet."

What, are you drawing up gang colors? You'd better check your numbers.

What I find most interesting about this comment is that by all accounts his statement was an open, warm and inviting response. And you think his answer was grounded in fear.

What exactly is it in his answer that scares you?

[Ted Brown]

22. 7 billion people alive today 20% about 1.4 billion

You got more numbers than that among the Christians?

Does being a minority of human beings on the planet make you feel somehow superior or inferior to the rest of the world population?

Why would someone in a minority invite people who don't respect his scam to play along? To get more points among the faithful, to show he's not afraid of the majority, to make him look like he's more important than he is?

Take your pick, and continue to refuse to answer the previous questions: what does buying into this guy's mumbo-jumbo offer in real life terms? Not a thing, other than than chance a few more dollars or sheckles or Euro's or whatever currency flows his way?

Any reason a Pope should not embrace agnostiscism? He, after all, opened the door to those; maybe he's still a doubting Thomas.

[rug]

23. Yes, Christians are a small desperate minority.

I'll play your game. How many Jets you got?

You sound worried, bro.

[Ted Brown]

25. Not worried as long as sane Christians are in charge,

but there seem to be fewer and fewer of those among the flock.

Ever think Christians could actually kick out Christians for being too stupid, too paranoid, too sick?

I don't find much evidence any Christian rejected fellow Christians, and now the Pope seems to want to make love with atheists, finding so many Christians such poor examples of healthy humans, I guess he wants more healthy rational thinkers to join his mindless flock.

Good luck to that.

No atheist was offended nor intimidated nor threatened by this man's few stated, then retracted, then re-stated remarks. Not a single atheist was offended nor threatened. Atheists don't bother to find anything a religious leader, anywhere in today's world, worth of feeling offended or threatened, only amused by the banality, stupidity, and foolishness of it all. In 200 years, we will look back and wonder how and why so many supposedly rational minds were taken in for thousands of years by such an obvious con-game', how the nature of the word "religion" made people give up logic and intsead worship of other people's mythical fantasies.

Remember, for over 75% of the history of Christian religion, the sun revolved around the Earth, and for all of the history until the last 40 years, Christians worldwide believed gay people were sinners, not human beings born with a power to love people of the same gender, and today, millions of Christians, including the leader of the Catholic church, still finds gay people to be sinners, not welcome in his con-game, except to take their money, except to make some of them martyrs after they die.

[hrmjustin]

45. The pope should become an agnostic is a weird thing to say.

[demwing]

48. I say atheists are more often seen as an annoyance than as a threat

But when seen as a threat, it's generally because people are competitive. The religious no doubt want to win souls, and see the atheists as the red team to their blue team. Some of them may also happen to think you are more than just the other team. They may see you as evil, and inspired by Satan. Tough luck getting a dialogue going with someone who's salvation is threatened by your very existence.

But I stand by my first comment. Annoyance > Threat. And I bet the feeling is mutual.

[HockeyMom]

17. Papal Infallibility on Religion

So the Pope issued this statement on Atheists. Ok, it was not a synod but it was about a religious doctrine. Then a member of the Vacation comes out and more or less says, no, no, that is not what he means. ONLY Catholics can be saved, let alone Atheists or Non-Christians, or Non-Catholics. ONLY those who believe in the one true church (Catholic) can be saved. Sorry, Lutherans, Methodists, etc., you are doomed.

Ok, now if the POPE is infallible on matters of faith and religion, how can a Bishop in the Vatican come out and contradict the Pope? Didn't the Pope make a statement about FAITH and RELIGION? He was not talking about ECONOMICS of the world, which would not fall under infallibility.

I don't believe ANY of it, plus get on the SAME PAGE Pope and Vacation. You cannot have it both ways.

[rug]

21. You're free to believe none of it but you should know what you're talking about.

Since when does an off the cuff remark have any hallmark of infallibility?

Or, at least read the quotes accurately. The bishop did not state "ONLY Catholics can be saved."

At least straw men have some straw in them.

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

36. "Off the cuff remark"?

He said it in a sermon, that he wrote. How is that "off the cuff"?

I think that he was preaching inclusion, and the importance of doing good in this world. And that is a nice change from Pope Ratz.

This 12-years-in-catholic-school-now-atheist approves of that message. Not that this will bring me back to the fold, but it is good to know that he isn't damning me to the really hot place that doesn't exist.

[rug]

37. Ex tempore may be more precise.

The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning mass at his residence, a daily event at which he speaks without prepared comments.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/pope-francis-atheists-can-be-good

I agree with you. The message is one of inclusion.

[Humanist_Activist]

30. The Pope wasn't speaking in ex cathedra, and is not infallible all the time...

also, there is NO change in the doctrines of the Catholic Church on people of other faiths or no-faith who do good works, salvation was always open to them. Apostates, on the other hand, are condemned.

[HockeyMom]

34. Then I am condemned.

My choice, and so be it.

[defacto7]

53. It's always backward day!

Condemned means saved.

[Humanist_Activist]

20. This is just a demonstration of the evil that is your church and your god.

Thank goodness your god is a mere fantasy, if he were real, I would try to find a way to destroy him.

[hrmjustin]

42. Lol tell us how you really feel my friend!

[Ted Brown]

31. Just to be clear, we still need all your money!

We still need you to give us all those thousands of dollars you die with, give it to your church, give it to the Pope.

Probably BILLIONS of dollars in deaths and fortunes from around the world in the last century alone!
Give us your money, die and give it to us... we need it!

Talk about the most gigantic Ponzi Scheme ever invented....!

You believe in us, give us your fortunes when you die!

[Politicalboi]

35. In his book

Even their own preist pedophiles go to heaven if they confess.
And they have plenty of them STILL. They make Michael Jackson look innocent. They can have their fantasy all to themselves. The bible is just s BOOK written by men who saw the world different than we do, so it's time we stop printing them, or label them as fantasy.
F%ck the Poop.

[madrchsod]

38. somewhere jesus is sitting around and thinking...

what the fuck happened? i thought if i spoke simply and to the point most people would get it. i mean most of the stuff i said was nothing really new. i just kinda shaped it to the times and the people i grew up with.

from what i've seen if i came back today i'd be on someone`s hit list. over the years there`s been a lot of good men and women that have given their lives like i did. making people`s lives better is`t for the faint of heart.

[Gore1FL]

43. Actually, I'm an atheist.

Setting aside for a moment that it shouldn't take human sacrifice to forgive someone for something someone else did at least 3000-4000 years (LOL) earlier. Ultimately, the argument of Rev. Thomas Rosica is that Jesus was ineffective at forgiving sins. The Pope's earlier statement were consistent with a powerful Jesus--and for that matter, consistent with the story of St. Thomas in John 20:24-29, who said he wouldn't believe without proof.)

Why is the church arguing for a weak Jesus and against a pretty well-known story from their holy book?

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. "Redeemed" seems to be used by the Pope as "removed the taint of original sin"

which then leaves all of humanity (after Jesus, anyway - and before, if you believe in back-dated redemption - was the idea that a lot of pre-Jesus souls suddenly made it out of limbo and/or purgatory and/or hell once he was resurrected? Is that "the Harrowing of Hell"? I've never been able to hear that without an image in my mind of Jesus as ploughman, which confuses it too much) free to make their own spiritual choices as "children of God". And the clarification from the Vatican seems to say "Francis was just talking about achieving world peace through good works; getting into heaven still requires membership of the Catholic church, if you've heard of it".

[rug]

46. I think that's essentially a correct statement.

As I understand it, his death on Calvary served as a substitute atonement for every human, before and after Christ, and the horrible things we've all done to each other and ourselves. That opened the door for everyone who wants to walk through it. It's still an individual choice to enter it.

That is what's meant by the way to heaven is through Jesus, that it was he who opened the door. It doesn't mean all who choose to go through it must salute the cross on the way in. There are lots of reasons to reject Christianity, its history, its assholes and its frequent meretricious behavior. But that is not the same as rejecting Jesus who was, after all, the one hanging on the cross. It wasn't the Pope or Cardinal Law. If someone acts in accord with his or her conscience, as best he or she understands it, the door is open. I think that's what was being said in all this hubbub.

In that context, the purpose of religion, or the RCC at least, is to speak the "good news", to shine a light on the path to the door to make the journey easier. It's record on achieving this is, to say the least, mixed.

[skepticscott]

49. "Original sin"

has nothing whatsoever to do with "the horrible things we've all done to each other and ourselves".

Try again.

[rug]

50. What's your excuse then?

[skepticscott]

54. If I need one

you'll be the first to know.

You stay classy, ruggie...

[LostOne4Ever]

52. Figures

Just when I was hoping the RCC had changed direction and shared the Poem Abou Ben Adhem with one of my relatives over FB on this very story, they find a way to weasel out of it.

Still, Im hoping this pope might get the RCC closer to the current century. Bring it into the early 1900 is still better than the middle ages.