There are Christians and then there are Christians.

[Starboard Tack]

If You Are Christian & Support LGBT Rights Then See What This Guy Called You

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/20/if-you-are-christian-and-support-lgbt-rights-then-you-should-see-what-this-guy-called-you/

I guess they are just like everyone else, some are haters and some are lovers.
Some are tolerant, some not so tolerant.

[Warpy]

1. There are Christians and people who completely missed the point

but who have stolen the name because it makes them sound better than they are.

I'll stick with the former and avoid the latter, thanks.

[trotsky]

2. I don't think they've stolen the label at all.

A Christian is whoever chooses to label themselves as such. No two people, whether they are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between, will ever agree on exactly what being a Christian means.

[notadmblnd]

4. CHINOS

CHRISTIANS IN NAME ONLY. Just heard someone on either Bashir or Shultz show call them.

[skepticscott]

3. The irony is

that each side is claiming that those on the other side are not "real" Christians, but in the end, none of them have any evidence for that claim. Just their interpretation, guesswork and projection about how "god" wants them to be.

[Starboard Tack]

5. The irony is some have Xian values and some are fascists

Kinda like atheists. Some of us embrace Xian values while dismissing the religious aspects, while some embrace nothing but their own egos.

[trotsky]

6. Can you declare, with any authority whatsoever...

what "Xian values" are? Do they include smarmy self-righteousness, for instance?

[rug]

7. What, are you a Christian after all?

[skepticscott]

9. Apparently

They do.

[skepticscott]

8. The irony is

that "Christian values" are all cherry picked. Just another clue for those who aren't clueless that no one needs "god" or "Christ" to teach them right from wrong.

[Starboard Tack]

12. Nobody needs god

But sharing certain values, cherry picked or not, can be a good thing. Try it, it may help you hate less.

[skepticscott]

13. Maybe if people like you stopped claiming values as "Xstian"

and stopped referring to them in that way, things would be less divisive. Try it sometime.

[Starboard Tack]

17. Ah, so Xians are not allowed share positive values with us. I see.

We must hate them all, just because they are Xian. Well, guess what, I'll take a loving Xian over an intolerant atheist any day. Sorry sport, but I still love you, in spite of your nastiness. Where I'm coming from thins are not divisive, not at all.

[trotsky]

18. You'll note that neither scott nor I have called them "atheist values."

They are positive, HUMAN values. They don't belong to or should ever be primarily associated with a particular group of people. Do you agree?

[Starboard Tack]

23. Yes I agree

The fact that Jesus was a teacher of these values does not diminish them in any way. Nor does the fact that some people consider him to be divine. I don't think for one moment that Jesus had any desire to form a new religion in his name, or that his ideas on human virtue were either original nor exclusive to him and his followers.

The fact remains that we live in a world where most people are exposed to his teachings, either directly or by social osmosis. If some think those values are exclusive to Jesus, then it matters little when compared to the values themselves.

Regarding atheism, it doesn't teach these values, nor does it reject them. I don't judge people based on their beliefs or lack thereof, but on their actions, or lack thereof.

[trotsky]

34. One of the things that you seem to take for granted...

is that the "facts" of the bible are somehow established to be accurate.

We have some evidence that a person similar to the biblical character of Jesus existed, but the only evidence we have that he did any of the things attributed to him is these stories that were finally written down a generation (at least) after he supposedly did them.

Given the evidence we do have about many of the moral principles and concepts in those stories and how they predate Christianity, it seems more likely that someone bolted on the stories to create/embellish the messiah character in their religion. History is full of such examples.

[Starboard Tack]

35. Not at all. The bible is an anthology of stories.

Has nothing to do with facts, as far as I am concerned. The character, Jesus, may or may not have existed. He may be a composite, or completely fictional, like Superman. Doesn't matter to me. What does matter, is that some of the stories about him are inspirational. Some are just plain silly and some are insulting to one's intelligence. Point is, they are stories, nothing more, some you like, others not so much. Each to his own.

[trotsky]

36. What you said was:

"The fact that Jesus was a teacher of these values..."

Is it a fact or not? You now seem to be stating in this post that it isn't.

[Starboard Tack]

37. No more of a "fact" than Superman came from Krypton.

Do you understand the difference between scientific fact and rhetorical fact, or are you just trying to be an ass?

[trotsky]

38. Just wanted clarification.

Sorry for asking.

[skepticscott]

20. Hmmm..let's see now

In one short post you've:

1. Put words in my mouth (I never said that Xstians are "not allowed to share positive values", or that we "should hate them all", only that laying claim to them as "Xstian" values is divisive and unconnected to reality"

2. Insulted me

3. Engaged in laughable intellectual dishonesty ("Where I'm coming from, things are not divisive at all", when just above you stated "some have Xian values and some are fascists&quot

4. Dodged my direct question: 'Why do you feel the need to claim those values as "Xstian"?'

That's a lot to accomplish in four lines. But it leaves me wondering whether you're still interested in a remotely reality-based discussion.

[Humanist_Activist]

10. "Some of us embrace Xian values..." What. The. Fuck are Christian values?

Really, I want to know.

[Starboard Tack]

11. Tolerance, loving thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others, caring for the lessfortunate.

[trotsky]

14. Those aren't Christian values, they are human values.

All of them predate Christianity. All of them have been developed independently of Christianity.

Some Christians have adopted those values, but they are in no way "Christian values."

[skepticscott]

15. Why do you feel the need to claim those values as "Xstian"?

As trotsky points out, these are human values, and hardly unique to, or even original to Christianity.

[trotsky]

16. Honestly, hearing these things portrayed as "Christian values" to me sounds exactly like...

someone claiming they are "American values" or "white values." I.e., essentially stating that everyone who is NOT part of the group being credited had nothing whatsoever to do with their development and propagation.

[Starboard Tack]

19. They are values that some of us share. I never said they were unique.

Extremists, be they atheist or theist, tend to shun those values. The fact that a guy named Jesus taught them doesn't mean he created them, or that they are exclusive to his followers.

[trotsky]

21. Thank you for backing down and admitting they aren't "Christian" values.

Thank you also for refraining from throwing in your typical snide, inflammatory comment. I hope this is a sign of better things to come from you, ST.

[skepticscott]

22. It's heartwarming

when facts and logical arguments move people to admit they're wrong. Wish more people here were so open to such acknowledgements.

[Starboard Tack]

25. You're welcome. They are not exclusively "Christian" values

They are values shared by those who follow the teachings of Jesus, who taught me to turn the other cheek. A value which is often tested.
And thank you for thanking me. Your humility is inspiring.

[Starboard Tack]

24. I don't claim that they are exclusively Xian values.

On the contrary, I don't even like the word Christian, because it implies that Jesus was a messiah and divine. Forgive me if I fell into a semantic trap. Agreeing with a teacher does not make me an apologist for those who followed him and built a religion around him. I'm sure he would turn over in his grave if that were possible.

So, please understand that when I use the word Xian in this context, I am referring to followers of the teachings of Jesus, not those who consider him divine. The values I referred to are the ones I learned as a child and I happened to have learned them as the teachings of Jesus. I didn't find much in the Old Testament that appealed to me, but I'm not into horror stories much.

Blaming the followers of Jesus for the hatefulness and bigotry of those who claim to be Christian is no different than blaming all Muslims for 9/11, or associating all atheists with intolerant blowhards like Dawkins.

[skepticscott]

26. Nice dodge

But it was you that deliberately and unnecessarily chose to associate those values with a particular religion, and in an inherently divisive way.

Glad that you recognize your error. Not doubt you'll be avoiding it in the future.

[Starboard Tack]

29. No dodge at all

My error was not clarifying my differentiation between the core teachings of Jesus and the distortions of those teachings by intolerant extremists. The fact that those extremists call themselves Christians or atheists, detracts in no way from the positive value of those teachings.

[Humanist_Activist]

27. What makes any of those exclusively Christian? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

30. Absolutely nothing

They are values that I try to live by. I am not a Christian, but I learned them when I was. I guess they stuck. OTOH, only 3 of the 10 Commandments stuck. I agree that the virtues taught by Jesus were not exclusive to him, nor were they original, but I am unaware of any other source that teaches them all with humility. To me, he was a thinker, a teacher and a revolutionary, all in all an extraordinary man. Much of what followed, in his name, is an abomination.

[Humanist_Activist]

31. Ahh, you are a cherry picker of Jesus, a Jesus fan, as it were...

you know, I read the same books, especially being from a Christian background myself, and Jesus was an extremely mixed bag, and not that revolutionary either, at least in a larger context. He was rather racist, wasn't exactly what you would call a family man, irrational, and believed in mind crime. He acted like a typical first century apocalyptic sect leader, they were a dime a dozen back in those days.

This is the problem with hero worship, it rarely matches with reality.

ON EDIT: Changed cult to sect, I meant cult in the historical, rather than modern, context, but the word is too loaded to use in such a way in this discussion.

[Starboard Tack]

32. A cherry picker, indeed I am, if that means discriminating between the good and the rotten fruit.

I would not call myself a fan, but I know which stories I like and those I don't. I'm a much bigger fan of Huxley than I am of Jesus, though neither are, or ever were heroes to me. Hero worship is not my style. From what I've seen, it is very unhealthy except on a very superficial level, and even then...

I wasn't around in those days, so I don't know about the various cults and sects. Not a field that interests me too much. To me, they were always stories, some good, some bad, some inspiring, some horrific. Who knows which are true, or even close to true, if any?

[Starboard Tack]

33. Talking of cherry picking.

"He was rather racist, wasn't exactly what you would call a family man, irrational, and believed in mind crime."
How did you extrapolate all that from the cherry orchard?
The tale of the good Samaritan tends to contradict the racist angle.
I didn't know being a "family man" was a special virtue. There are many who claim he was married to Mary Magdalene and sired children, and others who think he was gay. All of which is irrelevant in terms of moral virtue.
"Irrational" by whose standards?
"Believed in mind crime" - Huh?

Care to clarify some of that?

[Humanist_Activist]

39. You know Jesus was sent to only save the Israelites, right?

“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying; Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
Matthew 15:22-8

Canaanites are dogs, but Jesus will help them if they grovel enough.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
Matthew 10:37-39

Do I need to elaborate on this one?

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘you shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell”
Matthew 5:27-30

Apparently just thinking about doing a sin is just as bad as actually doing it, isn't that the definition of mindcrime.

Do you want me to dig up the quote where he cursed a fig tree for not fruiting out of season? Also, apparently he heard voices since he was a child, according the the Gospels. Irrational? I would say so.

Also, I never said that I didn't cherry pick, but then again, I also don't claim to follow "Christian Values" which have yet to be defined in a consistent manner. So define them.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Well, I guess we could cherry pick all day long to prove a point.

I don't spend my time scouring the bible for shit, which would be an easy task. When people talk of Christian values, I doubt they refer to the ramblings ascribed to Matthew or any other disciple, but rather to the stories that overlap with their own sense of virtue.
I think, for most of us, including professed Christians, the bible is full of drivel. Yet, buried in that drivel are nuggets of inspiration that folk hold onto, regardless of their religious affiliation. That's what counts. Whether they really came from this guy called Jesus, or from the tooth fairy is irrelevant.

I have read many books in my life and learned much from reading them, even from some of the trashiest books and the poorest of writers. I remember very few titles or authors' names, but I remember the things that stuck, regardless of the source.

You seem to be stuck with the notion that Jesus was some kind of messiah, a perfect divine creature. I'm sure he was as flawed as anyone, like Ghandi and MLK, but he obviously left an impression on a lot of people. What kind of impression is entirely up to the individual being impressed.

For many years, I have had trouble listening to the music of Elvis Costello, much to the consternation of many friends. I couldn't forgive him for calling Ray Charles a dumb, blind nigger. It was so over the top for me, especially because I never saw him apologize. Eventually, I realized that one story had prejudiced me toward the man, but I'm still working on it. Humility does not come automatically, just because one embraces it as a virtue. Find me a man without any prejudice and maybe I'll start believing in a deity.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. So basically you are arguing that Christian values don't really exist...

while arguing that the phrase should be used to describe them?

I object to your use of the phrase for a very simple reason, this: "but rather to the stories that overlap with their own sense of virtue." This end of your sentence sums up the problem, "Christian values" are anything and everything any particular Christian believes they are. Whether its a Russian Orthodox priest bashing in the head of a Gay rights activist in Moscow, or recently excommunicated Catholic priest Greg Reynolds, who teaches loves and acceptance of GLBT individuals, among other social justice issues, both of them are practicing "Christian values", anyone who claims otherwise is falling awfully close to the NTS fallacy.

That's one issue, the other is the implication that "Christian" equals "Good", which is exclusionary and offensive by the nature of the phrasing, such as "acting Christian(when charitable, good, or generous would be better substitutes), etc.

[Starboard Tack]

44. I seriously doubt your examples are considered values by anyone

You are ascribing extreme positions and actions by a handful of nominative Christians, as "Christian values", which is as unfair as calling all atheists intolerant of religionists, based on the extreme statements of certain atheists.
I make no claim that "Christian" equals "Good", or that any belief system equals good. Again, let me reiterate, no values are exclusive to any particular group.
I would never describe anyone as "acting Christian", neither to praise them nor to disparage them.
Neither do I argue that the term "Christian values" should be used exclusively to describe any virtue.
My purpose is to be inclusive, not exclusive and to encourage tolerance of believers, regardless of faith, or lack thereof.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. The term "Christian values" is exclusive by its very nature. n/t

[Starboard Tack]

46. Not to me it isn't.

No more than Saturday has anything to do with Saturn or french fries have anything to do with France, or English muffins have anything to do with England.

[JEFF9K]

28. I like to tell Rapture Republicans that ...

... they aren't real Christians, and that the Rapture was "added" to the Bible by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s.

[LostOne4Ever]

40. From one Apostate to all the newly declared ones

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Matt Barber [div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]To have vile, anti-Christian bigots who are pushing a radical, dangerous sexual anarchist agenda presuming to lecture Christians and have people – self-identified Christians, liberal so-called Christians – upload videos about how they support something that God calls an abomination, there’s no other word for it, it’s apostasy when you have self-described Christians do it.

From one apostate to all the new ones as declared by Mr. Barber, let me say this.

WELCOME TO THE PARTY! Though we may believe differently lets put aside our personal differences and work together for equality and defeating these bigots who hide hatred behind religion

[Starboard Tack]

42. Rock on!