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FarPoint

(12,334 posts)
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 06:58 PM Aug 2022

Okay...tRump is in deep trouble so, when will he pull out the " chest pain" card?

I sense he will try and claim illness....then again, he is under tremendous self educed stress of his own making...He indeed could be actually ill as a result of the stress....Sad thing is he lies so much that doubt will be the first guess when he claims illness....

I see this coming after indictments...or when he has to appear in court in front of a Judge...

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Okay...tRump is in deep trouble so, when will he pull out the " chest pain" card? (Original Post) FarPoint Aug 2022 OP
He spends hours doing his own hair and makeup underpants Aug 2022 #1
I don't think he'd do that. He's always held himself out as almost supernaturally healthy, Ocelot II Aug 2022 #2
Good point..... FarPoint Aug 2022 #3
Being sick doesn't get people out of being charged with crimes. Ocelot II Aug 2022 #4
That makes me smile... FarPoint Aug 2022 #9
Yes but if cornered he could become desperate for a new strategy. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #10
You can't avoid criminal prosecution on account of illness. Ocelot II Aug 2022 #13
Yes. But Trump doesn't care, he is trying to manipulate the public and future jury pool. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #14
The insanity defense will never work for TFG. Ocelot II Aug 2022 #16
Psychology, the law, and Trump. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #17
Another narcissistic sociopath also objected to the insanity defense. Ocelot II Aug 2022 #18
The more Trump feels cornered, the more unpredictable he will get. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #19
He should seek a plea. Strictly enforce pwb Aug 2022 #5
OHHHH YES!!!!! FarPoint Aug 2022 #6
Yes this is good and the most we can hope for. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #11
I'm coming to see ya Ivana!! IrishAfricanAmerican Aug 2022 #7
Hahahahahahahahahah FarPoint Aug 2022 #8
Yes he might do something very dramatic, flashy, garnering a lot of sympathy and attention. Irish_Dem Aug 2022 #12
Chump in a mob wheelchair can't be far off. Hassler Aug 2022 #15

underpants

(182,748 posts)
1. He spends hours doing his own hair and makeup
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:01 PM
Aug 2022

It’s all about the facade and there’s no room for weakness.

Ocelot II

(115,664 posts)
2. I don't think he'd do that. He's always held himself out as almost supernaturally healthy,
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:01 PM
Aug 2022

and suddenly claiming or pretending to be ill would go against everything he's been saying for decades. His ego won't permit him to feign or acknowledge illness - even when he had covid he pretended to be a lot less sick than we later found out he was.

FarPoint

(12,334 posts)
3. Good point.....
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:07 PM
Aug 2022

I just sense he is going to be out of his element, a brand new experience...being forced to face his crimes...he will be devastated....so that is where I think on the "fly" he could claim illness to avoid the Court Judge...?????

Just thinking out loud tonight...

Ocelot II

(115,664 posts)
4. Being sick doesn't get people out of being charged with crimes.
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:10 PM
Aug 2022

It's relevant only with respect to which prison they'll go to if convicted. There are several federal prisons that are also medical facilities, for example: https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/rch/

Irish_Dem

(46,893 posts)
10. Yes but if cornered he could become desperate for a new strategy.
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:12 PM
Aug 2022

If he truly thought he might go to jail, he would pull some new tricks.

But to your point, he would only do something if he could keep his ego intact.

He would have to feel that he is pulling something over on everyone.

That he is so much smarter than everyone else, and the rest of us are stupid.

Ocelot II

(115,664 posts)
13. You can't avoid criminal prosecution on account of illness.
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:20 PM
Aug 2022

If you are in the hospital or otherwise incapacitated your trial will be postponed until you are able to attend, since criminal defendants have a right to be present at their trial. But the charges won't go away.

Irish_Dem

(46,893 posts)
14. Yes. But Trump doesn't care, he is trying to manipulate the public and future jury pool.
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 08:28 PM
Aug 2022

He loves to use victim status to manipulate and control others.
He would conduct his case in the court of public opinion.

But BTW you can get can off the hook because of a medical condition.
Not guilty for reason of insanity.

Trump's statements at times make him sound delusional.
All government documents are his personal property.
Maybe he is going for an NGRI.

Ocelot II

(115,664 posts)
16. The insanity defense will never work for TFG.
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 09:13 PM
Aug 2022

For one thing, he'd never agree to plead insanity. Furthermore, it presumes that the person either didn't know what he was doing or that he didn't know it was wrong. Whenever a crime is premeditated and/or is covered up afterwards, the defense always fails. It is very rarely successful.

Irish_Dem

(46,893 posts)
17. Psychology, the law, and Trump.
Thu Aug 25, 2022, 07:33 AM
Aug 2022

I assume that the DOJ has psych consultants, or they can talk to Quantico (FBI psychologists). Safe to assume that there has been some discussion about Trump's mental status and how that would impact investigation and prosecution.

Early in my career I did forensic work as a mental health professional. Even county judges, detectives, chief of police would discuss the psychology of suspects with only minor infractions.

It is quite interesting and I assume we are not the first to discuss this topic. How abnormal psychology and the law intersect in the case of the People vs Trump.

Mental health professionals have been privately and publicly discussing Trump's mental status and future behavior for years. Actually some have been pleading that the public and officials listen to their warnings, to no avail.

Trump is quite dangerous, and refusal to listen to the warnings has been costly to the public and national security.

In terms of NGRI, Trump could argue he didn't know taking classified docs was wrong and he didn't cover it up.

1. Trump is sticking to his story that US government documents are his property.
If true, this sounds delusional. He sounds psychotic.

I guarantee you that there are psychologists who would testify that Trump is impaired.
He is delusional, exacerbated by his decades of amphetamine abuse (prescription meds, Adderall.)

I don't think he is psychotic, he is a ruthless sociopath. Being a sociopath with no moral core does not get you NGRI for sure. But he does at times to appear to be psychotic or delusional. And there would be mental health professionals who would testify to that.

2. He could further argue that he didn't cover anything up.

He moved the documents in full view as he left the WH. He moved them into MAL in full view. They were not hidden nor locked up in any way at the resort.

3. Trump's money shot on this issue that the FBI knew he had the documents for a long time and did nothing. So how bad could it be, and in doing so they were acknowledging his right to possession.

In terms of Trump not doing things because they won't work: I am sure there was someone who told him that trying to overturn the presidential election would not work, nor would trying to kidnap or kill Pence.

He did it anyway.

When a narcissistic sociopath is cornered they can really act out and get dangerous or act out of character. Yes I agree, his ego normally would get in the way of him pleading NGRI but if threatened with possible jail, he might pull a stunt of some sort. The DOJ would be very foolish to underestimate what Trump could do, what he is capable of.





Ocelot II

(115,664 posts)
18. Another narcissistic sociopath also objected to the insanity defense.
Thu Aug 25, 2022, 12:01 PM
Aug 2022

Anders Breivik, the right-wing terrorist who murdered 79 people in Norway in 2011, was initially diagnosed as schizophrenic, but a second evaluation declared him sane but suffering from personality disorders:

According to the [first] report, Breivik displayed inappropriate and blunted affect and a severe lack of empathy. He spoke incoherently in neologisms and had acted compulsively based on a universe of bizarre, grandiose and delusional thoughts. Breivik alluded to himself as the future regent of Norway, master of life and death, while calling himself "inordinately loving" and "Europe's most perfect Knight since WWII". He was convinced that he was a warrior in a "low intensity civil war" and had been chosen to save his people. Breivik described plans to carry out further "executions of categories A, B and C traitors" by the thousands, the psychiatrists included, and to organize Norwegians in reservations for the purpose of selective breeding. Breivik believed himself to be the "knight Justiciar grand master" of a Templar organisation. He was deemed to be suicidal and homicidal by the psychiatrists. According to his defence attorney, Breivik initially expressed surprise and felt insulted by the conclusions in the report. He later said "this provides new opportunities".

The outcome of Breivik's first competency evaluation was fiercely debated in Norway by mental health experts, over the court-appointed psychiatrists' opinion and the country's definition of criminal insanity. An extended panel of experts from the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicine reviewed the submitted report and approved it "with no significant remarks". News in the meantime emerged that the psychiatric medical staff in charge of treating prisoners at Ila Detention and Security Prison did not make any observations that suggested he had either psychosis, depression or was suicidal. According to senior psychiatrist Randi Rosenqvist, who was commissioned by the prison to examine Breivik, he rather appeared to have personality disorders. Counsels representing families and victims filed requests that the court order a second opinion, while the prosecuting authority and Breivik's lawyer initially did not want new experts to be appointed. On 13 January 2012, after much public pressure, the Oslo District Court ordered a second expert panel to evaluate Breivik's mental state. He initially refused to cooperate with new psychiatrists. He later changed his mind and in late February a new period of psychiatric observation, this time using different methods than the first period, was begun.

If the original diagnosis had been upheld by the court, it would have meant that Breivik could not be sentenced to a prison term. The prosecution could instead have requested that he be detained in a psychiatric hospital. Medical advice would then have determined whether or not the courts decided to release him at some later point. If considered a perpetual danger to society, Breivik could have been kept in confinement for life. Shortly after the second period of pre-trial psychiatric observation was begun, the prosecution said it expected Breivik would be declared legally insane. On 10 April 2012, the second psychiatric evaluation was published with the conclusion that Breivik was not psychotic during the attacks and he was not psychotic during their evaluation. Instead, they diagnosed antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. Breivik expressed hope at being declared sane in a letter sent to several Norwegian newspapers shortly before his trial, in which he wrote about the prospect of being sent to a psychiatric ward: "I must admit this is the worst thing that could have happened to me as it is the ultimate humiliation. To send a political activist to a mental hospital is more sadistic and evil than to kill him! It is a fate worse than death."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Psychiatric_evaluation

He's in prison now, of course, but he couldn't bear the possibility of begin declared insane because he's a narcissist. He's probably crazier than TFG but not crazy enough for the insanity defense.

Irish_Dem

(46,893 posts)
19. The more Trump feels cornered, the more unpredictable he will get.
Fri Aug 26, 2022, 08:06 AM
Aug 2022

So predicting his behavior will be more difficult.

However, I would counter the example by saying that yes Breivik is obviously much more disturbed along psychotic lines.
He is not as cunning, or happy to pull one over on people as Trump is.

Trump would delight in any argument that lets him win.

So that is what is different, Trump has the wherewithal to pull stunts and take great pride in evading jail by any means.
He would literally laugh as he left the courtroom if was able to make fools out of the judge and jury.

Breivik and Trump are different pathologies.

Edit to add: If the legal field does not listen to what the psychologists are telling them about Trump, their job will be much harder.

pwb

(11,258 posts)
5. He should seek a plea. Strictly enforce
Wed Aug 24, 2022, 07:12 PM
Aug 2022

A gag order for life, 5 years of in house confinement, and 5 years probation upon release from house arrest, for what he did to us, the other crimes could add time.

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