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The conclave and the Sistine chapel - is this the appropiate (Original Post) hedgehog Mar 2013 OP
Actually, I do have one concern about holding the conclaves in the Sistine Chapel Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #1
It's breath-taking. demosincebirth Mar 2013 #2
I saw it too on my first trip to Italy 47of74 Mar 2013 #3
My initial reaction to going into St Peters was Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2013 #4
That's beautiful IrishAyes Mar 2013 #5
I didn't realize that my first picture got left out of my post: hedgehog Mar 2013 #6
Bless your heart IrishAyes Mar 2013 #7
There comes a time to remember that God never calls us to do something hedgehog Mar 2013 #8
I chose IrishAyes Mar 2013 #9

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
1. Actually, I do have one concern about holding the conclaves in the Sistine Chapel
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 01:37 PM
Mar 2013

The ceiling and the walls are covered in priceless artwork. I'm sure that the smoke from the furnace in which the ballots (with chemicals to color the smoke) cannot be good for the frescos.

BTW, a suggestion if you should go to the Sistine Chapel: Bring along a pair of binoculars, since the ceiling is 28 meters above the floor.

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
3. I saw it too on my first trip to Italy
Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:11 PM
Mar 2013

The artwork in there is so beautiful. However it was crowded and you had "shhhhh" over the loudspeakers every other minute, along with tourists who did not oblige. It made for a tense environment so I didn't stay long before leaving for the next part of the museum.

Second trip I didn't take the optional excursion through the museum and the chapel, and instead went off on my own to explore the roof of St. Peter's.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
4. My initial reaction to going into St Peters was
Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:10 PM
Mar 2013

"This shows what you can do with a first rate decorator and an unlimited budget."

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
5. That's beautiful
Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:55 PM
Mar 2013

... and thank you.

However beautiful I find my Church in so many ways, however, I recognize that it's part of God's choir, not the entirety. As Jesuits in general have earned my admiration, I have to wonder if some of them might be equally aware whatever their disinclination to broadcast it. I still consider myself as thoroughly Catholic as anyone else, even though more than a few of the laity would disagree. I've rubbed shoulders with enough Unitarian/Universalists to enjoy their company very much, and I have very strong Native American animist leanings into the bargain. Throw in a few pre-Christian Celtic notions and I guess it could mislead some people.

Catholic practice - not to mention some Catholic clergy - vary a great deal more than many both inside and out of the Church are aware. For instance, even JPII officially declared that there's nothing whatsoever of Native American animist beliefs in conflict with his understanding of actual Church doctrine. Some priests are also practicing Buddhists with no problem since the latter is a philosophy, not a religion; and in some parts of the world it's not uncommon for a Buddhist and a Catholic to co-officiate at ceremonies including weddings.

Yesterday Dolan was the first I've heard to openly broach the subject of not requiring celibacy for priests unmarried at the time of ordination. It's been officially allowed for some time when clergy leave one denomination for ours. Some single priests have quietly married afterwards of late, continuing their full pastoral duties, and nobody I know of has been kicked out for it.

So I don't think Dolan took any great risks with his statement that required celibacy for the priesthood is a changeable discipline. As opposed to female priests, although you can bet that's waiting in the wings. Between the Nuns on the Bus and Mother Theresa, who told JPII to his face that he needed to make that change because we'd make BETTER priests, I don't see how it can be more than a matter of time.

But big ships turn slow.

In no way am I huffing at you, dear Hedgehog, because I dearly wish your friendship and look forward to inviting you on my Buddy List as soon as we get one. Besides, I'm always in real need of someone to talk things over with, and I won't get it in this tiny, remote corner of the Bible Belt where I retired even though there's actually a little Catholic mission church here.

I don't want to sound like I think I'm the Lone Ranger at all, because in the first 4 or 5 years when I hung on there by my fingernails, I saw entire families go elsewhere, even one large family who used to drive 100 miles round trip on Sundays because the parents grew up here. A particular otherwise congenial lady even slid into her pew muttering the direst imprecations under her breath against the individual who's always considered herself Head Hen. But this place has real problems which I blame mostly on the vicious small town syndrome in general.

For instance, the day after I arrived here, I took myself to church to give thanks for safe arrival. Before Mass, the circuit priest briefly introduced me to the congregation, I stood up and smiled hello without a word!, and sat back down. Later on my way out, Head Hen slipped up behind me and hissed, "Well, YOU sure made a hit with him!" I swear it was downright malevolence in her voice. And it was still one of our friendliest encounters ever. At the time I privately dismissed her as more than weird so I didn't even acknowledge that I'd heard her.

The straw that broke my camel's back came at a midweek Mass during the winter when she and I were the only two congregants who showed up. On Tuesdays, Fr. always invited public comments on the lesson which this time it happened to regard tolerance. Said Head Hen, "I know exactly what you mean, father. For instance, her! (I turned around and saw her pointing at me.) From the very first day I've never liked anything about her. Not the way she looks or sounds or dresses or anything! But I'm supposed to be nice to her."

My jaw just dropped. Fr. went on as if nothing had happened. Like almost everybody else, he must've been afraid of her. Coming from a prominent family, she's always thought the world should bow and scrape to her, and when anyone doesn't, out come the long knives. I don't think she's really insane, just mean as a snake. He's got a mean streak of his own, too; after listening to him a few months I asked casually if he was diocesan or if he belonged to a particular order? He snapped that he used to be a Jesuit but they kicked him out for severe alcoholism and he didn't really care for them at all now. Coming on the heels of a compliment towards them from me, it did not bode well for the future between us.

Anyway! Over a year later Head Hen saw me at a soup&sandwich lunch at another church; she walked up and dared to ask why I'd stayed away from 'our' church so long. "Could it be anything someone said to you?"

Well, there's a limit to my self control. I dropped my fork on the table even though I'd been on the verge of my first bite of Million Dollar Pie, and I stood up and dressed her down well above normal speaking volume. "How DARE YOU come in here and try to embarrass me with your damned lies! (followed by a very short version of our last meeting) You might as well pack for hell, woman, because that's where you're headed!"

Head Hen started to gasp and flutter at me - for public benefit, of course - that she had no idea what I was talking about. I fired back, "You sure as hell do, because you did it to my face and everybody knows what a stinking, lying coward you are!" Then for effect I threw my plate in the trash and stomped out. I have to be really angry to throw away Million Dollar Pie. And I never thought I'd cuss inside a church before, but that time I did.

During the following week several people slipped up to me in public and grinned, with a thumbs up. They're all too cowed to fight back or even openly support anyone who'd dare, but I'm not anyone's property so I occasionally let loose. Head Hen's poor bil practically hugged me in the grocery store's parking lot, though.

So, no... I don't find a lot of chatty company around here. Head Hen has a few well-trained chicks running loose too, but those stories are for another day. I never meant to keep typing so long this afternoon, but my fingers seemed to have a will of their own. Now I'm too exhausted even to check for typos. But I'm also content; that old saying about better to give than to receive goes for ulcers too.



hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
6. I didn't realize that my first picture got left out of my post:
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 02:31 PM
Mar 2013


I think the image of an angry Christ punishing sinners is hardly a good inspiration for the Cardinals.

The situation you face is not uncommon and is found in all sorts of groups, religious and secular. I suspect that it's experiences such as yours that have as much to do with people leaving the Church as anything coming our of Rome. People aren't leaving because they don't believe in God, they're leaving because they don't find God at church! In my town, three parishes were combined. When the dust settled, the priest who'd run the operation had managed to drive away most of the parishioners from two parishes. Some drive down the road to a Catholic Church, others go nowhere now. I think I've settled in with an Episcopal parish.

I hope you find a good faith community, inside or outside the Roman Catholic Church.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
7. Bless your heart
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:42 PM
Mar 2013

Stunning as it is, I agree with you about the painting. Most educated Catholics don't really believe in a literal hell, and I don't think the clergy do either. We tend to make our own decisions about what's literal or not. It's just that hell's been part of the fabric so long, laity at least still throw the term around in moments of fury. Purgatory's just a convenient way station to touch up after a long trip, before the Big Debut. So it's a kindness, not intended as any punishment.

Well, I'm going to confess something terrible in public since I don't have access to proper clergy at the moment! Currently I visit the UM's about one block away, and meanwhile I read the obits regularly to see if Head Hen has croaked yet. You'd suspect her age - late 80's - might factor into her behavior except I'm told she's been that way all her life. Comes from being a big fish in a small pond. Since she also has considerable $ to bequeath, you can bet her relatives walk on eggshells, perhaps some in hopes of assuming her title. Anyway, she's the only one able to push me over the line, so when she's gone I'll probably return. I prefer peace and quiet, and I've already rapped her knuckles hard enough for her to get the point.

Oddly enough the priest of whom I spoke is extremely congenial and beloved by many - unless you accidentally fall into his personal pit. And I made the classic blind blunder, politely asking (or so I thought) about his affiliations. He behaves like what's often referred to as a dry drunk.

But there's a new circuit priest now of whom I hear great things, and I'm well able to manage the Chickletts, so there'll come a time when I can return w/o too much trouble. I do have a mobility scooter to make the 10-block round trip easier in mild weather, and there'll be nobody around to insist I leave it outdoors where it's sure to be stolen. Long walks are a pleasure but only in extremely casual wear. Old habits die hard, and I enjoy dressing for church.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
8. There comes a time to remember that God never calls us to do something
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:29 PM
Mar 2013

we can not; and that we should avoid near occasions of sin!

Seriously, even the disciples were told to gird up their belts and leave town when they were not wanted. I'm glad you've found a home for now at least. The path to a united Church doesn't necessarily run straight to Rome!

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