They've really "jumped the shark" over at Kos.

[NNadir]

One used to hope we on the left were not as totally scientifically illiterate as those folks on the right, but it would appear that on both ends of the political spectrum, there is little hope for science in this country.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/14/1254341/-How-many-times-a-week-should-you-eat-Tripolyphosphate-IAN-11-14-2013

Over the years I've been appalled by what passes for science over there but, this, this, this...

Apparently we should be afraid of eating fish, because fish, like, um, ATP, the fuel for nearly every living cell on the planet for billions of years, contains triphosphate salts.

I am really, really, really, really, really, really afraid for the future.

[MADem]

1. I am not a member at Kos, but one poster doesn't represent their community.

Any more than the rantings of one member over here represents our community.

[NNadir]

4. It's on their rec list.

162 recs, count 'em.

Meteor Blades, Sylv, Chi, decisivemoment, Timaeus, Maudlin, Liberal Thinking, Powered Grace, Emerson, tacet, celdd, xynz, HootieMcBoob, devtob, MarkInSanFran, hubcap, concernedamerican, Einsteinia, whenwego, vmibran, farmerhunt, roses, ovals49, oceanview, ctsteve, wader, emmasnacker, NYC Sophia, mrkvica, lcrp, nswalls, zerelda, ybruti, KayCeSF, Steven D, Josiah Bartlett, rmx2630, la motocycliste, marina, jrooth, ichibon, stlawrence, chimene, offred, dewtx, ChemBob, viral, stagemom, YucatanMan, Kevskos, Pam from Calif, Sun Tzu, Inland, Kayakbiker, most peculiar mama, kaliope, quiet in NC, bently, skywriter, jrharam, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, Kimball Cross, blueoasis, global citizen, aloevera, JVolvo, middleagedhousewife, SingerInTheChoir, BlueMississippi, CA Nana, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, kurt, Mr Horrible, bstotts, Temmoku, Aaa T Tudeattack, One Pissed Off Liberal, old wobbly, bigjacbigjacbigjac, karmsy, FishOutofWater, 18038, operculum, Mark Wallace, MKinTN, cottondon, GAS, OleHippieChick, Sixty Something, Youffraita, No Exit, ClapClapSnap, luckylizard, msdobie, WearyIdealist, Celtic Merlin, greengemini, mHainds, dRefractor, Northern Light, stevenwag, VALuddite, ArthurPoet, jfromga, Just Bob, kayhag, oceanrain, David PA, Susan from 29, JoanMar, samanthab, kacemo, AJ in Camden, nosleep4u, slice, surfermom, slowbutsure, lady blair, jm214, vahana, BlueJessamine, FarWestGirl, molunkusmol, thomask, Claudius Bombarnac, Crider, poliwrangler, freerad, Marihilda, Vatexia, cactusgal, SteelerGrrl, jadt65, No one gets out alive, turn blue, 420 forever, FloridaSNMOM, Horace Boothroyd III, Mr Robert, jan4insight, carolanne, belinda ridgewood, rat racer, Glen The Plumber, nomandates, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, broths, GreenMother, solarbay, Another Grizzle, maggid, duhban, River Rover, OceanDiver, OregonWetDog, The Marti, ExpatGirl, trkingmomoe, Gurnt, kkkkate, ginimck, Evoculture

It's not "just one member."

It contains at least one prominent front pager there. I happen to to have interacted fairly strongly with this person myself, who was famous for, among other things, for castigating the Republicans for "not having respect for science," because, they criticized the science of "Jim Hansen."

And then, Jim Hansen became a non-person there for um, writing a scientific paper, the most widely read one over the last twelve months in one of the world's most prominent scientific journals:

http://pubs.acs.org/action/showMostReadArticles?topArticlesType=recent&journalCode=esthag

I really don't care all that much any more, at least not for myself. As cheerfully as is possible, I just have to admit that the bad guys won and that fear and ignorance will rule the future. But as for my two sons, now entering into manhood, a dark age is descending, at least in this country, where the far left and the far right complete most vociferously to see who can be the most scientifically illiterate. I worry for the future of those two young men.

For the record, though, as an environmentalist, I would suppose that anything which convinces people to not eat fish isn't all bad. I stated as much when I was writing over there:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/04/1096837/-Some-Remarks-On-the-PNAS-Radioactive-Tuna-Paper

[MADem]

5. I've seen some stupid ass shit get hundreds of recs here, too.

I don't know any of those people, and the fact that they click a link -- out of loyalty to the poster or because they don't like watery fish-- doesn't necessarily mean they're buying every single word of the essay.

[JNelson6563]

26. Same could be said for here.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. 162 out of how many members?

50,000? 100,000

Awfully small fraction.

[Peregrine Took]

2. I don't want this firming, glossining additive in my fish - do you?

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/blogs/what-is-sodium-tripolyphosphate-doing-in-your-fish/

[Curmudgeoness]

3. Sorry, but I have to agree with the blogger.

Just because adenosine triphosphate is used in all cells for fuel does not mean that using it to preserve meat and fish is acceptable. It may be that it is not unsafe to consume, and I will not attempt to argue that, but I bought chicken breasts once that had an odd taste. I couldn't figure out why---it was just a bag of frozen chicken breasts. But I checked the label, and it was not "just" chicken, it had been preserved with triphosphate. I had a hard time getting through that bag, it was 10 pounds! (And I am too cheap to toss that much meat, although I actually thought of it since it was that bad.)

Some things necessary inside cells are not as useful when ingested. Or that is the way I see it after my experience.

[NNadir]

17. I'm sure you do.

My favorite line in your post is this one:

"Some things necessary inside cells are not as useful when ingested."

I wonder how you think things get inside cells. But don't tell me. I'd rather live in suspense.

[Curmudgeoness]

18. OK, I won't tell you.

But I will not forget doing an experiment in one of my biology classes using enzymes. You know, the same kind of enzymes that are in cells, only this was a higher concentration than you would find in cells. I spilled a little on my jeans. The next day, there was no material in that spot. I would not have been interested in ingesting that beaker of enzymes.

But you continue to be nasty to everyone who disagrees with you if you must. That helps your argument greatly.

[NNadir]

19. Thanks for your consideration.

Try not to use laundry soaps like Tide by the way, since, um, they contain enzymes just like the type that ate your pants, although they are not very concentrated.

Concentrated enzymes are typically very expensive. I'm surprised that they spent the money on concentrated pants eating enzymes in biology classes, but some schools are more expensive and exclusive than others.

Here for instance is a price list for some "concentrated enzymes," that run about 130 Euros for a barely visible amount. (For the record, a box of Tide doesn't contain visible amounts of enzymes.)

http://www.jenabioscience.com/images/741d0cd7d0/catalog_PI3Kinase_web.pdf

For the record, not that I am here to demean those wonderful "sciency" people at Daily Kos, where I was once criticized for being precisely that, using precisely that word, "sciency," but cells have all kinds of transporters for moving phosphates in and out of themselves, and in fact, in human beings, blood is partially buffered by phosphate. In fact, all life, including human life, is moderated by a dance of phosphorylating enzymes known as kinases.

There are zero people on this planet who would not die without phosphates and pyrophosphates that we have now discovered are dangerous food additives, including those who have announced they won't eat fish because they contain, um, triphosphate additives.

Succinctly put, if I may repeat, if one did not eat phosphates, knowingly or unknowingly, on fish or without fish, one would die.

I did not mean to demean you however, since you obviously went to a school more exclusive than mine, but I will add that I am, in fact, very, very, very, very, very upset about the future, given that one even needs to discuss these things.

Have a nice evening.

[Curmudgeoness]

20. Well, I did not go to an exclusive school.

This biology course was in college, and it was several years ago. I have no idea how much those enzymes cost at the time I was in school. And thanks for the lesson, you did very well. (My major was biology, so I had lots of classes with expensive specimens and chemicals.)

I do not disagree with you regarding the state of science education and knowledge in this country. I also cringe at what most people do not know about the simplest things. I am not being critical of your concern, I am only saying that too much of a good things is not always a good thing.

You have a nice evening too.

[Vashta Nerada]

6. It's just like the anti-GMO hysteria.

I'll listen to the science before a bunch of non-scientists on the internet.

[Tumbulu]

9. Good, show us the science proving that gmo's are safe.

Start with the B.t. toxin and show how the truncated version expressed in plants continuously (that does not break down in UV light in 24 hrs like the natural one does) and was exempted from normal EPA toxicity studies because it was claimed to be the same as the Bt toxin produced by the bacteria in a crystal form (the engineered toxin does not have this specificity) that only breaks down into toxin when exposed to insect guts of pH 12+ is safe.

Explain why this toxin is now in the bloodstreams of over 90% of Canadians and who knows what % of Americans. Explain why there were no toxicity studies required when they knew that the engineered plants produce raw toxin that has a significantly longer half life.

Then let's hear about how safe it is to engineer antibiotic resistance that can jump from microbial species to microbial species into all of these same plants as markers and not expect our gut microbes to be left uninfected let alone the soil microbes. And why no testing was required regarding this little part of the whole catastrophe, which is a usual requirement for approval by the EPA.

Yes, calling on all bought off "scientists" to defend the disaster that they have dumped on us. Funny how it is only the "scientists" in the USA who think that the products are safe only because no one can prove that they have caused harm. Funny that anyone who publishes any studies showing harm watches their professional career destroyed.

[Vashta Nerada]

10. Show me peer reviewed scientific studies that show that GMOs are harmful.

Right now, all I see is speculation.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

11. Are you so #4@#$$ that you think GMO's are good?

Most are made so that we can spray roundup. We are making wastelands and breading super weeds,

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

Anyone that lends support to this horrid practice has no wisdom.

[Vashta Nerada]

14. I didn't say that, did I?

[NNadir]

16. Actually, the place where GMO's have the most enthusiasm, is the...

...third world, where insertion of genes into rice, for one example, to address serious nutritional deficiencies among the poor.

http://www.goldenrice.org/

Gene exchange and modification has been a feature of life on this planet since the beginning of life on this planet.

It's generally called "evolution."

Gene exchange is so common in fact, that one of the surprises of human genome project was the discovery that much of the human genome consists of viral DNA.

A relatively recent review article in the primary scientific literature is here:

http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v13/n4/abs/nrg3199.html

We are not serving humanity when we blurt out silly uninformed rhetoric on subjects we know nothing about, but as disillusioned as I am on having encountered so much of this kind of rhetoric on the end of the political spectrum where I've spent my entire adult life, I recognize from posts such as yours that there is little that can be done about this.

Fear and ignorance have won.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

21. What the fuck does enthusiasm have to do with this?

I am talking about GMO Corn soy. The over use of roundup is fucked up.

My grandfathers farm is next to a roundup fucked up farm. Life abounds on our property. The adjective property is a wasteland. The soil looks different, feels different, smells different, is different.

A monoculture of "magic rice" is another dead end plan.

Take your fancy words and eat them. Come look at what happens on a roundup farm. I think you have a little intelligence, at least enough to believe your eyes. The largest use of GMO 's leads to damaged land. Dead land makes for poor production.

Think long term. We must make the land better each year. We can not just keep taking and dumping loads of toxic waste.

[NNadir]

33. Well, as it happens the poor can't eat fancy words, and given the fear...

...and ignorance of first world brats with poor educations, we can expect that people will fight to make sure they have nothing to eat.

GMO soybeans - which now represent about 90% of the world wide crop despite the idiocy and fear of conservative types who masquerade as environmentalists - prevented the destruction of yields in those crops during the recent massive drought.

Now, maybe some bourgeois types picking lint out of their navels and trying to return to the 19th century would not have been affected if the soy crops did not have drought resistant genes inserted, but I assure you that many other people would have suffered. They're called "poor people."

I fully recognize the strain on agriculture represented by many factors, including the degradation of the soil by pesticides - the use of which has declined as the result of GMO crops - and the use of fossil fuels in agriculture, which has also declined because of the need to spray less, and I happen to be an environmentalist of the type with which you are obviously and totally completely unfamiliar: One who has opened a science book.

As for your concern for the long term, about which you apparently know very little, I assure you that gene exchange will go on for as long as life on this planet exists, just as it has done for billions of years. You seem to think that gene exchange in service to humanity is evil, but that's an opinion that I find regressive and appalling, hence this entire series. We have too many people on the left who hate science precisely because they don't know any. This makes us as ridiculous, in many ways, as, to give an example, creationists on the right.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

35. This is the same sophmoric thoughts you reguritate time after time.

Dead fields will feed none of us. I know what living soils looks like. feels like, smells like, and most importantly what living soils behaves like. You are living in a fantasy land with houses built of cards.

You also can not think clearly. Your zeal clouds your ability to gain any understanding. If you live one hundred more years you will not "crack" as many science books as I have. Even if you, by miracle, could come up to my level your psychological obstructions would leave you unable to draw the correct conclusions.

Your response to my post is more of your canned dribble. You throw out random "facts" that cloud the issue. You show a great amount of intellectual dishonesty or more likely you just have an agenda.

LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR. MY ISSUE IS NOT (CAN YOU UNDERSTAND?) NOT NOT

LET ME SAY IT AGAIN NOT NOT NOT GMO's. NOT GMO's.

UNDERSTAND? DO NOT RESPOND IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUSH GMO's.

I fight against roundup ready GMO's. DO not prove that you are a dumb person by telling us all how important it is to dump ton after ton after ton after ton after ton after ton after ton..... ROUNDUP!

[Marrah_G]

24. gmo crops have nothing to do with evolution

No plant was going to crossbreed with an animal

[Tumbulu]

28. My goodness, you are terribly misinformed

and I hope that you can read up on the subject before writing any more.

[WCLinolVir]

31. Guess what else they have in the third world?

A lack of funds and education. Just ripe for big ag. For the record not everyone wants GMO rice grown in the third world. Just ask some of the locals.

[Vashta Nerada]

29. Yeah, cuz that's what I said.

[Tumbulu]

27. And this is why the scientists in the rest of the world are laughing at us

except it is not a joke, it is an outrage.

A real scientist tests before claiming that something is safe. And with the info that I presented above anyone not bought off would demand that the EPA require the normal testing be done immediately, since it was allowed onto the market prior to the normal tests decades ago for a new pesticide.

[Tumbulu]

7. I agree with the blogger

these tactics that allow a product to take in water, thus raising it's weight and thus price is not ethical. And probably messes up the flavor and who would know what else it does to the product being waterlogged like that?

[libodem]

8. Anything

Involving the krebs cycle is over my head.

[jakeXT]

12. Sausages are good, toilet paper is useful, why not combine them ?

Kolbasa history

The first sausage processing factories appeared in Russia at the beginning of the 17th century. But in Soviet times – due to centralized planning – kolbasa production was dealt a heavy blow. Bad harvests meant cattle were undernourished and kolbasa became a rarity in stores all over USSR. Some factories started adding synthetic additives to keep production volumes afloat.

One of these additional additives was a substance that was also used to make toilet paper!!! So the expression “toilet-paper kolbasa” became popular at that time. People also called this cheap kolbasa made of who knows what sobachya radost (“the dog’s paradise”).

Ordinary people could find good kolbasa only in Moscow and some other cities with big meat-processing plants. But finding did not mean getting - even in Moscow one had to stand in line for an hour to buy it. Thousands of people flocked to the capital from other cities to spend money on kolbasa and other hard-to-get items. There was even a joke in the form of a riddle about the train from Moscow (the trains in USSR were green): “What’s long and green and smells like kolbasa?”

During the time of “kolbasa deficit” there was an abundance of cheap fish in stores, prompting another popular joke: “The best fish in the world is kolbasa.”

http://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/kolbasa/

[eridani]

13. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, people! ATP and sodium tripolyphosphate are two different molecules!

Not taking a side in the argument yet, just trying to establish some ground rules for further discussion.

Sodium tripolyphosphate
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=24455

Adenosine triphosphate
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=5957

[NNadir]

15. And your point is?

What?

Never mind...

I really don't want to know.

[eridani]

22. The entire "Kos is anti-science" argument in the OP is based on the assumption that the Kos article

--is objecting to the addition of exogenous ATP to foods. In reality, the article is objecting to the addition of sodium tripolyphosphate to foods.

[NNadir]

34. People called "chemists" understand the role of structural analogues.

People who have very little appreciation for chemistry, on the other hand, google pictures of structures, utter some pejoratives and miss the point.

Pyrophosphates are a feature of all living tissue, and ATP, as well as ADP are two examples of them. If your claim is that pyrophosphates do not exist in human tissue, I might advise you to open a science book, or alternatively, you may run over to Kos, assuming you're signed up there in that August space, and add a rec to the very, very, very, very, very stupid post that is so popular there, if you haven't already.

One can google information on pyrophosphates in living tissue and finds lots of information on the subject. Here's just a few examples, pulled up in a few seconds:

http://www.jbc.org/content/239/10/3576.full.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9737962

The world has a lot of major problems, including the preservation of foods, without which the already massive problem of food wastage would be infinitely worse. I mean what's the big concern here, that there's water in fish? Knee jerk reactionary crap like a conniption about pyrophosphate on fish doesn't help the human race at a critical juncture in its struggle to survive at a level of decency: It hurts it.

Now, if one wishes to discuss the sustainability of fishing itself, or the fact that the human race has a real problem with the phosphorous cycle in general, and thus faces real risks, that would be useful. But this is not what the screamers and tantrum throwers at Kos are doing. What they are doing is expressing ignorance.

I am familiar with many of the idiots who signed on to that bit of reactionary fear mongering. They are, in my opinion, oppressive fools, doing great damage to humanity. Many other environmentalists are becoming increasingly disgusted by this sort of thing; I am hardly alone.

Have a nice day.

[eridani]

36. I see you have repudiated your OP. Thanks

But the article you object to had nothing to say about pyrophosphates either. It was about sodium tripolyphosphate, period--not about ADP, ATP or pyrophosphates. Please address that.

[Marrah_G]

23. I'm glad I don't have to worry about that

Living on the coast in New England makes fresh fish easy to get. I can either fish it myself, or go to one of the many markets here. I consider myself really lucky and can't imagine what it's like not living on the coast.

I prefer my food to have as little added chemicals or added DNA as possible.

[AverageJoe90]

25. I'm not sure about jumping the shark, but I have noticed some "Chicken Little" type antics, yeah....

There's been quite a shitload of climate doomerism too, especially on the comments boards.

Of course, thankfully it's not all bad; there's some good info that does get posted(James Wells is a great example), so I don't think it's entirely jumped the shark. And actively discouraging fearmongering while also encouraging positivity would help with that, I think. Just my 2 cents.

[WCLinolVir]

32. What happens to it in the body?? How about the manufacturing process?

Lots of questions. From Wiki-

Sodium triphosphate (STP, sometimes STPP or sodium tripolyphosphate or TPP,[1]) is an inorganic compound with formula Na5P3O10. It is the sodium salt of the polyphosphate penta-anion, which is the conjugate base of triphosphoric acid. It is produced on a large scale as a component of many domestic and industrial products, especially detergents. Environmental problems associated with eutrophication are attributed to its widespread use.

So much for jumping shark. Maybe that was the post.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Just One Nit To Pick

STPP has not been widely manufactured for use in detergents for decades. The use of phosphates as primary surfactants or builders in detergent systems were highly regulated back in the 70's and 80's due to eutrification of algae in major lakes and rivers.

Today, it's used only as a minor builder, or a donor to the formation of phosphate buffers in high temperature applications.

GAC