Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Judi Lynn

(160,598 posts)
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 02:23 PM Mar 2014

Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Really Starting To Scare Conservatives

Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Really Starting To Scare Conservatives
By Amanda Marcotte
Tuesday, March 18, 2014 11:10 EDT

The wingnut panic over the show Cosmos is incredibly amusing to me. It’s understandable, because Neil deGrasse Tyson is really good at being clear and concise about science and he eviscerates right wing attempts to muddy the waters with precision. I particularly liked this quote from an interview on Inquiring Minds: “I claim that all those who think they can cherry-pick science simply don’t understand how science works,” because science, unlike theology or musical taste, isn’t a matter of just taking what you like and leaving the rest behind. What is interesting—and threatening—about Cosmos is it asserts interconnectedness of science. Evolution and the “big bang” theory are inseparable, and knowing how old and vast the universe is makes it much, much easier to understand how evolution works.

This runs strongly counter to the conservative approach to science. Conservatives don’t want to be perceived as anti-science, so they claim a general support for it and then just suddenly and coincidentally have “reservations” about science that runs against their political interests. So you have people who wouldn’t dare dream of saying that physics as a field is wrong, but somehow still manage to convince themselves the that laws of physics are suddenly suspended when they point to the conclusion of man-made climate change. Or they have to accept that sexual reproduction, by its nature, creates descent with modification, but they somehow decide that this can’t be true over vast expanses of time. Cosmos makes that kind of cherry-picking hard to pull off. Tyson knows that if you understand, for instance, how dog breeds came to be, you understand evolution and can’t reasonably deny that, over much longer periods of time, you could get way, way more genetic diversity through natural selection.

In my post last week about these issues, I asked why Christian fundies are much less interested in building the case against the old-and-vast universe, even though they clearly don’t believe in it any more than evolution, than they are trying to sow doubt about evolution. This, even though the age and the size of the universe tend to argue against their god more than even evolution does. I neglected to mention that I suspect the main reason is tradition. The fight between evolutionary biologists and fundies predates many of the theories about the universe and certainly predates the popularization of those theories. It’s an arbitrary accident of history. You know, like a lot of evolved features are.

I cannot emphasize enough the arbitrary nature of the attacks on evolutionary theory. Fundamentalists are not interested in crafting legitimate criticisms of science. They just want to cough up a bunch of random “reasons” to disbelieve the science so that their followers can latch onto that as an excuse for why they reject science, and that’s it. That’s why they put astrophysics mostly on “ignore” and focus on evolution, because all their followers need to know is that “criticisms” exist and they can feel good about believing a bunch of bullshit.

More:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/18/neil-degrasse-tyson-is-really-starting-to-scare-conservatives/

43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Really Starting To Scare Conservatives (Original Post) Judi Lynn Mar 2014 OP
I love the Creationist arguments: "There's no evidence for evolution and natural selection!" Hissyspit Mar 2014 #1
Well to put it bluntly, their arguments come from a point of view that are directly and purposefully mrdmk Mar 2014 #2
Fundies I know would say the bible is their evidence. nt abelenkpe Mar 2014 #4
Actually, humans aren't very good at artifical selection of cats. catbyte Mar 2014 #6
Yes, I was just joking, but I agree with your assessment. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #8
Cats: cui bono Mar 2014 #16
A quick search reveals thats not accurate quakerboy Mar 2014 #43
Actually, I suspect he chose canines because they show the mainpulation far GreenPartyVoter Mar 2014 #9
I kid! Hissyspit Mar 2014 #11
Yes, and maybe, too, he chose canines because they live in social groups, whereas felines valerief Mar 2014 #14
Yes, also a very good point. :^) GreenPartyVoter Mar 2014 #20
The concept that cats are not social and dogs are is way over-done. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #25
I'm going to disagree with most of that. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #21
Felines don't live in packs. Lions in prides, yes, but felines are solitary animals. valerief Mar 2014 #22
Cats form social bonds with each other. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #24
Thanks. I don't click on links until first doing a google search and having Norton valerief Mar 2014 #32
CBS News: Hissyspit Mar 2014 #36
thanks valerief Mar 2014 #40
This message was self-deleted by its author valerief Mar 2014 #38
More Egyptian cat lore... onager Mar 2014 #33
I knew of Ammut Hissyspit Mar 2014 #34
That is because... WaitWut Mar 2014 #10
K&R.... daleanime Mar 2014 #3
The first two episodes of this show were great Gothmog Mar 2014 #5
I wasn't sure how much I'd like this new Cosmos, but I loved the second episode, especially... Moonwalk Mar 2014 #7
golf clap blackspade Mar 2014 #12
Can you elaborate on your meaning? AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #17
Frankly anything that gets under fundi skin I applaud blackspade Mar 2014 #27
OH. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #28
Gotcha blackspade Mar 2014 #29
Looking at the definitions on UrbanDictionary AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #30
Right, the fundies want to use whatever works for them at the moment, a Band-Aid valerief Mar 2014 #13
K&R nt tweeternik Mar 2014 #15
I think the irony is interesting. the_sly_pig Mar 2014 #18
The best defense is a strong offense erronis Mar 2014 #41
Judi Lynn Diclotican Mar 2014 #19
Diclotican, it's so good to hear you've seen both kinds of "Cosmos!" Judi Lynn Mar 2014 #26
Totally random unscientific data... onager Mar 2014 #35
Ok, I'm gonna say something that may be unpopular here VWolf Mar 2014 #39
VWolf Diclotican Mar 2014 #42
HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Mar 2014 #23
Sorry, but I must post this link in every discussion that even touches on evolution Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #31
Really liked the two shows so far oldandhappy Mar 2014 #37

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
1. I love the Creationist arguments: "There's no evidence for evolution and natural selection!"
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 03:14 PM
Mar 2014

"Therefore it is false!"

Like there is any evidence for Creationism.

I did notice while viewing that he started with planned selection, then moved onto unplanned selection. As a cat lover, however, I was put off by his obvious bias towards canines over felines.

mrdmk

(2,943 posts)
2. Well to put it bluntly, their arguments come from a point of view that are directly and purposefully
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 03:45 PM
Mar 2014

derived for a personal agenda of one or the few. Many people who like to be lead will 'believe', to their dying breath, therefore carry out this agenda under a stigma (or cloud), 'in the name of God!'

catbyte

(34,425 posts)
6. Actually, humans aren't very good at artifical selection of cats.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:24 PM
Mar 2014

There aren't any Great Dane nor teacup Yorkie sizes cats. There are a lot of different coat types, but they are all basically the same size, with minor differences. I like to think that cats just won't have it, LOL.

quakerboy

(13,920 posts)
43. A quick search reveals thats not accurate
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:39 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.petassure.com/newsletters/071510newsletter/07152010article1.html
http://www.purringangelscattery.com/SizeChart.html

There are teacup cats who are apparently about 1/3 the size of a normal cat. Apparently these are growing in popularity.

And Main Coons or Savannahs on the other end, who can have a healthy weight double that of the average cat

Speculatively, It seems to me there's more reason to breed more types of dogs, as they served in several functions, from transportation to protection to hunting, vermin control, companions, etc. Cats mostly were companions or vermin control. You dont need a ton of size differences for that.

I would also speculate that noone has bothered to breed a larger cat because at some point, you are just adding a bobcat or mountain lion to your household, and he may decide to eat your face at some point. I imagine the demand to try and breed a great Dane size cat is not there, because a person with that desire can just pull a Tyson and buy a tiger. But there's no reason it wouldn't be possible to breed one with time, desire, and funding

GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
9. Actually, I suspect he chose canines because they show the mainpulation far
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:33 PM
Mar 2014

more clearly. I read somewhere that canines have a more "slippery" DNA which allows for the massive range of differences, as opposed to the smaller extent of differences we have made in cats.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
14. Yes, and maybe, too, he chose canines because they live in social groups, whereas felines
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:52 PM
Mar 2014

are generally solitary. That social need already existed in canines, as well as humans, so it was easier for canines to bond with humans. That's probably part of the reason why the canine-human relationship is much older than the feline-human one.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
25. The concept that cats are not social and dogs are is way over-done.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:31 PM
Mar 2014

Cats are less obviously egregious md most nuanced in their sociality, and the reasons they became domesticated with humans is different from dogs (apart from it being about sources of food).

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
21. I'm going to disagree with most of that.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 05:35 PM
Mar 2014

Cats are social, too. They are just social in a different way.

Just this week it came out in a report that cats apparently domesticated in Ancient Egypt much earlier yah previously thought.while it may be true that canines domesticated earlier, it may not be true. And it may depend on where it happened with what population.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
22. Felines don't live in packs. Lions in prides, yes, but felines are solitary animals.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 05:46 PM
Mar 2014

The domestic cat has been bred to be more social with humans. Canines, before bonding with humans, were already social animals (they lived in packs), and that was probably why they bonded with humans first. Canines were already social creatures like humans.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
24. Cats form social bonds with each other.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 07:28 PM
Mar 2014

Yes, hunting is mostly solitary for them, but that is not the only aspect of being social.

Here's the report I was talking about:

@CBSNews: RT @CBSSciTech: Ancient cat skeletons found in Egypt may push back the date of cat domestication by nearly 2,000 years http://t.co/6upiobUr2R

valerief

(53,235 posts)
32. Thanks. I don't click on links until first doing a google search and having Norton
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 10:53 AM
Mar 2014

tell me the link is okay. It couldn't find that link, so I didn't click it.

Anyway, I was talking about wild cats and wolves before they bonded with man. The wolves were already socialized. The cats were basically solitary. The canine-human bonding came thousands of years before the feline-human bonding (even if feline domestication came almost 10,000 years ago). Once both became domesticated, the socialization with their own species and with man became something different. Domestic cats are far more social than wild ones.

BTW, I love cats and dogs and have no preference. Er, the domesticate ones. I'm very happy to steer clear of the wild ones!

Response to valerief (Reply #32)

onager

(9,356 posts)
33. More Egyptian cat lore...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 11:20 AM
Mar 2014

Heard from actual Egyptians when I lived there:

1. Everybody knows about Bast, the Egyptian goddess with the head of a cat. But in addition to her other godly functions, Bast was used as a sort of pain reliever. Statues/dolls of a smiling Bast were called the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "funny face," and used as a distraction for women giving birth, babies who were teething, etc.

2. When a modern Egyptian Mom is trying to feed a cranky baby, she'll put the food up to its mouth and say "mut-mut-mut." Which means "Eat up kid!"

That's a direct reference back to the one kitty nobody wanted to pet in ancient Egypt - Ammut, a/k/a Great of Death, Eater of Hearts, The Devourer. Body of a leopard, head of a crocodile, hindquarters of a hippo. If you flunked your final exam at getting into the Afterlife, Ammut ate your heart. Followed quickly by the rest of you.

Gothmog

(145,486 posts)
5. The first two episodes of this show were great
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:22 PM
Mar 2014

I am really impressed with this show and I am glad that the science deniers are worried

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
7. I wasn't sure how much I'd like this new Cosmos, but I loved the second episode, especially...
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:29 PM
Mar 2014

...the way in which he tackled the distaste people feel about being related to monkeys. He derailed that by pointing out that we're related to trees...and then, having captured everyone's attention (trees?), made his point that all life is related and "one." Very nice move, and he did it more than once. He neatly pointed out that DNA means we're all unique and special, as well. Which also takes away some of the emotional bullets used by the other side to keep people anti-evolutionary.

That's what we have to remember—and what this show seems to be remembering. We're not dealing with intellect but emotions in regards to anti-evolutionists. To them, science simply says, "you're an ape and nothing special." Why go with that when you can go with "you're a unique creature made with love and care by the most powerful being in the universe...."?

I'll add that they picked the right man. He's being remarkably gentle and beguiling in getting science virgins and the science-phobic to see, as he puts it, the "poetry" of science.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
30. Looking at the definitions on UrbanDictionary
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:13 PM
Mar 2014

it looks like the tides are turning, and the term is gaining a positive meaning of late.

Which is going to be terribly confusing for people like me.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
13. Right, the fundies want to use whatever works for them at the moment, a Band-Aid
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:48 PM
Mar 2014

approach to their "reasoning."

the_sly_pig

(741 posts)
18. I think the irony is interesting.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 04:58 PM
Mar 2014

Arguing for creationism comes from a lack of faith. The religious need swords to enforce their view. If they truly believed they would endeavor to promote religion positively, but they have taken the opposite track trying to discredit science.

A lack of faith indeed.

erronis

(15,326 posts)
41. The best defense is a strong offense
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 01:33 PM
Mar 2014

If they can't defend their views the only thing to do is try to discredit reason and science.

Other than a few cases of Christian Scientists and whacko religionists allowing themselves and their children to die without the benefits of modern science, I believe most of them will visit the E.R. when they need to.

Diclotican

(5,095 posts)
19. Judi Lynn
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 05:20 PM
Mar 2014

Judi Lynn

I have just seen one episode from the new Cosmos - and I would say I outright love how Neil Degrease Tyson is able to communicate to everyone else, the dept of our universe - I loved Cosmos in the days of Carl Sagan - and Neil Degrease Tyson had some really big feet to follow up on - and I think he did that just fine - and I'm looking forward to the next episode... Its aired on National Geography channel here in Europe... And a few episodes later than in the US I guess...

Diclotican

Judi Lynn

(160,598 posts)
26. Diclotican, it's so good to hear you've seen both kinds of "Cosmos!"
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 08:48 PM
Mar 2014

I believe we've had 3 new Cosmos, if I'm not mistaken.

It's great they have decided there will be room for a new version of Cosmos. We need far, far more really good programs. The human race deserves worthwhile efforts like these.

National Geographic runs these programs one night later in the US, after the Fox Network airs them on Sunday nights. We wait and record our shows from National Geographic. We may be seeing the same shows during the same weeks.

No doubt the remaining shows there and here will be great. It's so good to hear you get them, too!

onager

(9,356 posts)
35. Totally random unscientific data...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 11:36 AM
Mar 2014

I've been sort of idly wandering the Internetz, checking reactions to the new "Cosmos."

Lots of people are watching with their school-age kids, including many people who were young when they saw Sagan's original "Cosmos."

Except for...guess who?...religious fundamentalists, everybody seems to love it.

Some viewers guess that the biggest target audience is kids, but note that the show works for anyone of any age with an interest in science but not much knowledge of it. Including adults who only took the required courses in high school/college and haven't studied much since. I'd agree with that.

Personally, I love it. Like yourself, I DVR it from NatGeo (to avoid the commercials).

VWolf

(3,944 posts)
39. Ok, I'm gonna say something that may be unpopular here
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 12:46 PM
Mar 2014

But here goes ....

So far, I liked the original Cosmos better.

I can't explain why. Perhaps it's because I watched the original during my grade school days and it was all new to me. Perhaps it was the choice of music in the original (I LOVE Vangelis). Perhaps it's because Carl was from my neck of the woods. I really don't know.

That said, the new Cosmos comes a very, very close second IMHO.

Diclotican

(5,095 posts)
42. VWolf
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 01:37 PM
Mar 2014

VWolf

The new Cosmos is not the same as the original one - no doubt about it - I was 8 when it was aired back where I live, and I had to promise a lot of things to be allowed to se the series - as it was aired rather late in the evening... And It was absolutely new compared to what I was used to..

And Carl Sagan had something I doubt Tyson have in the same degree - a passion for space - and our place in it - Tyson is a good teller of what is out their - and our place in it - but he do not have the same passion that Carl Sagan had... But then again - Sagan had a passion for space I doubt many would have the ability to follow up on.. But I think he does a fair job - Tyson that is - and I think I would say he might show up as a far better than we have seen it... I at least would do my best to follow this series as best as I can - and I think he will do a great job.... Even though he is no Carl Sagan..

Diclotican

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,771 posts)
31. Sorry, but I must post this link in every discussion that even touches on evolution
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 09:03 AM
Mar 2014

because it is such an important point:

The Theory of Evolution is a theory, but guess what? When scientists use the word theory, it has a different meaning to normal everyday use.1 That's right, it all comes down to the multiple meanings of the word theory. If you said to a scientist that you didn't believe in evolution because it was "just a theory", they'd probably be a bit puzzled.

In everyday use, theory means a guess or a hunch, something that maybe needs proof. In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations.2 It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be.
http://www.notjustatheory.com/

oldandhappy

(6,719 posts)
37. Really liked the two shows so far
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 11:48 AM
Mar 2014

Eager for more of this good stuff. Watching it, I thot to myself, God is soooo BIG!!! Why cannot we accept that maybe God set it all up this way? I like a big God. I love learning about the stuff on Cosmos. It is a long time since I was in school and frankly the science knowledge has grown so much that I feel I am starting all over. Great experience to watch these shows. Only two so far, but I have learned lots. The tree thing was a delight!

Latest Discussions»Culture Forums»Science»Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Re...