Science
Related: About this forumBlack Hole found, 12 Billion x Solar Mass. Thats a "B". Black hole at center of MW is ~4 Million SM.
http://www.space.com/28664-monster-black-hole-largest-brightest-ever.html(all emphases my own)
Astronomers have discovered the largest and most luminous black hole ever seen an ancient monster with a mass about 12 billion times that of the sun that dates back to when the universe was less than 1 billion years old.
It remains a mystery how black holes could have grown so huge in such a relatively brief time after the dawn of the universe, researchers say.
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So far, astronomers have discovered 40 quasars each with a black hole about 1 billion times the mass of the sun dating back to when the universe was less than 1 billion years old. Now, scientists report the discovery of a supermassive black hole 12 billion times the mass of the sun about 12.8 billion light-years from Earth that dates back to when the universe was only about 875 million years old.
This black hole technically known as SDSS J010013.02+280225.8, or J0100+2802 for short is not only the most massive quasar ever seen in the early universe but also the most luminous. It is about 429 trillion times brighter than the sun and seven times brighter than the most distant quasar known.
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BootinUp
(46,924 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe kind of nailed the universes age down fairly accurately, 13.77 billion years, within 0.5%.
Realize, that stars were probably a whole lot more massive in the early universe. And if one is aware of stellar evolution one would know that more massive stars have shorter lifetimes. And they also tend to make black holes.
So super-duper massive black holes in the early universe are not at all surprising.
BootinUp
(46,924 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Even void or negative matter would still be a universe. So what was in that space 14 billion years ago?
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Vincardog
(20,234 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Because time can exist outside space. For example, we don't know how big the universe is. We call it infinite only because we have no idea of its actual dimensions. That being said, outside OUR universe, could be another, or many more universes, which could have recorded the time before our universe existed.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Your statements make no sense. You attempt to prove time can exist outside space by citing other universes (for which you have no proof) and asserting that time in those other universes is somehow related to time in our universe.
Response to Thor_MN (Reply #16)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)What is outside or what existed before our Universe is unknowable, but it is not scientific to claim that there was nothing before our Universe, nor does it make any sense.
Our Universe came from an already existing physics in an already existing reality. It's impossible to come from complete nothingness.
Since there is order and predictability in nature, nature doesn't do things just once. Nature doesn't make things in ones. Our Universe is very likely one of numerous universes, each universe with its own properties. We naturally live in one that can support life.
Response to cpwm17 (Reply #10)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Our Universe came in to existence through an an existing physics, in an unknowable realm or dimension.
At some level of existence, there is a realm that just exists, that had no beginning and will have no end. This unknowable realm contains all of existence related to ours. Technically one could call this ultimate realm, 'The Universe', though the Universe usually refers to what came into existence in the Big Bang.
There could possibly be other types of existences unrelated to ours that exist in completely different realms.
Response to cpwm17 (Reply #14)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Prove that and you will win a Nobel prize. Until you do, however, it is an argument for incredulity and akin to humans can't jump higher than their own height, no one will ever break the 4 minute mile, and it is impossible to break the sound barrier. Just because "It doesn't make sense" simply means we don't understand it - "it doesn't make sense" holds no inherent truths.
It is not scientific is to claim that anything existed before our universe. There is no evidence for it. Then again, there is no evidence against it either. The first part of your first statement is correct, but then you go off the rails. Unknowable, and then you claim to know.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Welcome to ignore.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)That's part of it's purpose. One shouldn't be surprised if here if they assert a unscientific statement to see it correctted. Just because one feels right about something does not make it true.
Feel free to came up with a counter claim. We can talk it through.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)not magic.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)To state that the universe came from something is magic. There is no proof that it did. There is no proof that it did not. Therefore, your claim is faith, magic, call it what you want. But it isn't science.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)is not evidence that our Universe came from nothing, and since nothing has no physics, nothing can't make universes - or anything at all.
From everything science has learned, there is order in nature. This allows scientists to make predictions. If natural processes were just one time events following no particular laws, we couldn't have science. The world would seem like a magical place.
Our Universe has conditions that allow it to support life. The odds that a particular universe could have life supporting conditions are extremely small. To many scientists, this is good evidence that there are a huge number of universes. These universes came from a realm (or realms) with the physics that allowed it to make universes. Reality plays a lot of lottery tickets, which is why we are here.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You decry the thought of the universe came from nothing and turn around and make the error that it must come from something. You are caught is your own logic. We do not know where our universe came from, possibly we can not know. Until there is proof of anything, it is improper to declare that the universe came from nothing or it came from something.
Response to darkangel218 (Reply #4)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jeroen
(1,061 posts)Space and time are 'properties' of the Universe itself.
So, the Universe is expanding into nothingness, creating space and time in the process.
To ask 'where inside this nothingness is the Universe' does not make sense because space does not exits outside the Universe.
We think of the Universe as a balloon floating in nothingness, but that is only because we are limited in our thinking and imagination.
That said (albeit very clumsy), there are indications that the Universe is surrounded by multiple other Universes.
These Universes would not 'live inside space / space-time' but if a different dimension, which allows for the unlimited expansion of all the Universes 'it contains'.
Response to Jeroen (Reply #26)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)Response to Bill USA (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)Knowing i share the same space/time continuum with something that awesome just made my day. Cheers!