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BootinUp

(47,177 posts)
Mon May 8, 2023, 09:43 AM May 2023

Everyone Was Wrong About Reverse Osmosis--Until Now

Snipped

Diffusion is the flow of a chemical from where it's more concentrated to where it's less concentrated. Think of a drop of dye spreading throughout a glass of water, or the smell of garlic wafting out of a kitchen. It keeps moving toward equilibrium until its concentration is the same everywhere, and it doesn’t rely on a pressure difference, like the suction that pulls water through a straw.

The model stuck, but Elimelech always suspected it was wrong. To him, accepting that water diffuses through the membrane implied something strange: that the water scattered into individual molecules as it passed through. “How can it be?” Elimelech asks. Breaking up clusters of water molecules requires a ton of energy. “You almost need to evaporate the water to get it into the membrane.”

Still, Hoek says, “20 years ago it was anathema to suggest that it was incorrect.” Hoek didn’t even dare to use the word “pores” when talking about reverse osmosis membranes, since the dominant model didn’t acknowledge them. “For many, many years,” he says wryly, “I've been calling them ‘interconnected free volume elements.’”

Over the past 20 years, images taken using advanced microscopes have reinforced Hoek and Elimelech’s doubts. Researchers discovered that the plastic polymers used in desalination membranes aren’t so dense and poreless after all. They actually contain interconnected tunnels—although they are absolutely minuscule, peaking at around 5 angstroms in diameter, or half a nanometer. Still, one water molecule is about 1.5 angstroms long, so that’s enough room for small clusters of water molecules to squeeze through these cavities, instead of having to go one at a time.

https://www.wired.com/story/everyone-was-wrong-about-reverse-osmosis-until-now/

8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Everyone Was Wrong About Reverse Osmosis--Until Now (Original Post) BootinUp May 2023 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Farmer-Rick May 2023 #1
This is a bit confusing Farmer-Rick May 2023 #2
what to clip is the question. nt BootinUp May 2023 #3
Yeah, I jumped before I read the article. Farmer-Rick May 2023 #4
Cool! ProfessorGAC May 2023 #5
"Everyone Was Wrong" is a clickbait title. hunter May 2023 #6
If the principles involved are misunderstood BootinUp May 2023 #7
I'm simply resisting the clickbait title, especially in a science forum. That's all. hunter May 2023 #8

Response to BootinUp (Original post)

Farmer-Rick

(10,197 posts)
2. This is a bit confusing
Mon May 8, 2023, 10:09 AM
May 2023

He starts out talking about a drop of dye spreading throughout a cup of water and then a particular odor spreading through the air.

And the next paragraph he talks about water diffusing through a membrane. A different thing.

OK, I see that the whole article is about diffusion through a membrane and this is just a clip out of the middle of the article.

Now it makes sense.

ProfessorGAC

(65,134 posts)
5. Cool!
Mon May 8, 2023, 01:55 PM
May 2023

I doubted the notion that there were no partition structures in RO membranes, too.
It actually doesn't make sense.
I never did a partition model of RO, but have used the technique.
It's exciting that the conventional wisdom was corrected.

hunter

(38,322 posts)
6. "Everyone Was Wrong" is a clickbait title.
Tue May 9, 2023, 09:51 AM
May 2023

"Few people had thought much about it" would be more accurate.

The simplistic explanation for this kind of osmosis was good enough for the work most people were doing, just as Isaac Newton's laws of motion were good enough to get the Apollo astronauts to the moon and back.

Einstein didn't prove Newton "wrong," he refined the model.

BootinUp

(47,177 posts)
7. If the principles involved are misunderstood
Tue May 9, 2023, 10:12 PM
May 2023

then further advances in these types of filters would be slowed. You seem to want to argue against the experts with just your gut.

hunter

(38,322 posts)
8. I'm simply resisting the clickbait title, especially in a science forum. That's all.
Wed May 10, 2023, 01:29 AM
May 2023

The actual science is interesting and potentially very valuable.

The Wired article did include a link:

Water transport in reverse osmosis membranes is governed by pore flow, not a solution-diffusion mechanism

Abstract

We performed nonequilibrium molecular dynamics (NEMD) simulations and solvent permeation experiments to unravel the mechanism of water transport in reverse osmosis (RO) membranes. The NEMD simulations reveal that water transport is driven by a pressure gradient within the membranes, not by a water concentration gradient, in marked contrast to the classic solution-diffusion model. We further show that water molecules travel as clusters through a network of pores that are transiently connected. Permeation experiments with water and organic solvents using polyamide and cellulose triacetate RO membranes showed that solvent permeance depends on the membrane pore size, kinetic diameter of solvent molecules, and solvent viscosity. This observation is not consistent with the solution-diffusion model, where permeance depends on the solvent solubility. Motivated by these observations, we demonstrate that the solution-friction model, in which transport is driven by a pressure gradient, can describe water and solvent transport in RO membranes.

--more--

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adf8488



So far as I know that's not behind a paywall as the Wired article is for me.

For now I'm imaging water molecules going through those networks of pores in messy conga lines to the exclusion of other party guests.

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