Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumAgnostic (who leans deist) who believes in the afterlife here.....
Last edited Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:20 AM - Edit history (1)
Anyone out there who shares my outlook on life?
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Neoma
(10,039 posts)All you'll get from me is me singing, *Duuuust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind....*
Tobin S.
(10,420 posts)But I don't, wait...I doubt it. 
I'm an agnostic, too, but not of the deist variety.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)But I could be wrong.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)I used to believe in ghosts as one sat on my bed one night and touched me. Believing in ghosts made me see evidence for them everywhere. Then I read about 'Sleep Paralysis' and it described my encounter with the ghost/succubus to a 'T'.
I now no longer hear the ghostly sounds I used to (paradolia) or see any evidence whatsoever for an afterlife and considerable evidence against it, even though I sometimes wish for there to be one.
But wishing doesn't make it so.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)or see any evidence whatsoever for an afterlife and considerable evidence against it
Actually, there's no real concrete evidence against it, either.....which is why I remain open to it.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)Oh, the sleep paralysis happened many years ago when I was a teenager. While it was absolutely terrifying when it was happening since it seemed so utterly real and I "knew" I was awake, it made life very interesting. I even felt a bit robbed when I came upon the prosaic explanation for it and found out that it was pretty common and I hadn't been visited after all.
As for evidence against an afterlife, of course there is. Memories and personality are stored in our biodegradable brains, or otherwise alcohol, physical trauma, or stroke couldn't destroy or radically alter them. Likewise, our consciousness is a product of neurological activity; there's no 'little man' in there operating the controls to move on once the equipment fails.
With no memories, personality traits our consciousness, what could be left?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Let's put my view this way: Absence of completely tangible evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I guess for me the obvious question is, why, lacking any evidence to support it, jump to the conclusion that seems most improbable?
Given what we actually DO know about how our brains work, why would one dismiss that knowledge in favor of something that contradicts that knowledge AND lacks factual support?
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)in my life was a full-size, 3-D visual hallucination during an episode of sleep paralysis - complete with smell-o-vision and man, oh, man did he smell good . . . all come hither-y and stuff.
I loved it - except for the creepy can't move anything but my eyeballs part and the weird blue light in the room.
The brain is a fascinating organ.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)Mine were utterly terrifying, more of the typical 'night hag' variety being a wizened old crone. I later tried to imagine it was my grandmother who must have died around that time, but the dates didn't particularly coincide.
People who haven't experiences these episodes may not appreciate how utterly real they appear. When you're asleep you may think you're awake, but during these episodes you 'know' you're awake and yet these things happen. I remember trying to scream but could only manage the tiniest whimper.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I turned on all the lights and called a friend at 3 in the morning. Fortunately, I was able to more or less identify where it came from - I had been having an extremely vivid dream (for me, because I hardly ever recall dreams and I still can cite chapter and verse of this one, 15 years later) that was probably an extension of an historical novel I was reading before I went to sleep.
The novel wasn't "sexy" or anything, but it did have a lot of detail and well-developed characters. So, I was dreaming that I was on a tour of an English castle (or manor or something) and sneaked away from the tour to explore a tower room that was off-limits. While standing in the room - which had the remains of a bedstead, a chest with a broken top, a tattered tapestry on the wall and a huge empty fireplace with andirons tipped over inside it - I heard the door open behind me.
As I turned I saw the owner of the castle/manor standing in the doorway with his arms crossed and a stern look on his face. He reached out one hand and said "come with me" (he was on older gent).
The dream "ended" there . . . I "woke up" to a weird blue glow in my bedroom and the curtains at my window blowing like there was a hurricane outside (the window was open). At the foot of my bed is the good looking guy, standing just like the guy in the dream. He looks just as stern, but way more attractive. Reaches out his hand just about the moment I realize I can't move a muscle. Then he says "come with me" and I start panicking because it doesn't matter how good he smells - I can't move.
He stands there, looking disappointed, then sort of vaporizes/vanishes in a swirly fog. The blue light fades, the curtains fall flat and I can move. Cue turning on the lights and calling the friend.
Weird, but almost completely explainable - the only part I didn't get was the curtains. Still, if my brain could think up the rest, why not billowing curtains, too?
Warpy
(114,615 posts)The ego, memories, personality, likes and dislikes are all functions of the brain and die with it.
Whether anything else is left to move on is moot. All we know for sure is that it's a one way trip, whether we go see all our dead relatives or just float out of existence on a tide of happy hormones.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)If you believe in an afterlife, then that seems to point to a belief in "something". And if you really do believe in something, is that agnostic? Just curious, because I don't understand.
I will not share your outlook, but I am an atheist, and you shouldn't expect me to share this view. I have no delusions that there is anything but what we have while we are alive.
But you are welcome to elaborate on your views. We may not agree with you, but as long as you don't try to cram religion down our throats, we will listen and discuss.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I see no evidence whatsoever that our consciousness can survive the death of our brain.
DavidDvorkin
(20,589 posts)
dmallind
(10,437 posts)To me believing in an afterlife is no worse than believing the Cubs will sweep the next 5 Series. As long as you don't start pretending it's based on anything but baseless wishful thinking filling in a gap where we have no concrete knowledge.
These analogs are closer than many might feel from their, admitted, flippancy. We have lots of reasons to suspect that postmortem consciousness or soul survival does not fit in with what we currently do know. For example the 100% correlation between sensation and cogitation and activity in specific parts of the brain that we know for sure do not have postmortem activity. Trust me I know the believer response is that we just know this activity is "merely" always concomitant with sensation, not that it is necessary for it. True as stated, but a tiny loophole lacking even the slightest evidence that suggests something else may be necessary instead, and that that something may somehow survive death. In short the believer must ignore the overwhelming implications of perfect correlation of a very mechanistic likely cause, and assume with no evidence a completely undetectable and unguessable metaphysical cause for sensation and thought. Similarly we have lots of reasons to suspect the Cubs will again fall short. Their poor pitching, lack of consistent hitting at key points in the order, the overwhelming advantage in talent and payroll of other teams. Yes again the believer can say that talent and consistency are not the way teams win over a 180 or so game season even though it always has been so, but that there is some assumptive "hand of fate" that will give the Cubs 110 wins and no chokes in the postseason instead, even though it never has before and there's no evidence showing it might now.
The difference is only in the probability, and here the Cubs have a major advantage. There are less than 3 dozen entities that can win the Series. They actually are (incredibly) a MLB team with real profesional players who compete within the league. The putative means of postmortem existence have no such immanent status. Truly, the likelihood of the Cubs 5-peating is exponentially, logarithmically more likely than post-mortem sensation or consciousness. But the belief is similarly based, and there is no problem with believing either as long as you don't try to pretend there's evidence for it, don't try to pretend there is some hidden knowledge accessible only to believers that makes it likely, and don't expect others to take it all that seriously.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)so I could see all my beloved pets again.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)to believe we humans could possibly deserve to go to the same place dogs do. If we did, it would only be to act as ball-throwing and tummy-rubbing attendants.
LisaLynne
(14,554 posts)That would be heaven to me! I agree though. We humans would have a LOT to live up to in order to be worth of dog heaven.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)I would rather be among all my doggie friends than all my deceased relatives.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)I don't share that belief. It's nonsensical but if you need it to comfort you...party on 
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)as believing that there is only one possible type of afterlife(as religious fanatics do), but, I guess there are some who are comforted by the belief in no afterlife. Regardless, I say more power to them. 
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)Hardly.
Humans rot just like animals because we are animals. You have to believe in a magical soul
in order to take the next step. In that case, you are definitely in the wrong group.
Magical thinking is another forum
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Kindly read the SoP for this group. This is NOT the place for your condescending comments toward non-believers. Religion is the appropriate place for that discussion.
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)I think the name of the group is Atheists & Agnostics
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)The name of the group is Atheists & Agnostics
Saying atheists are "nonsensical" is against the SOP.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)I think you don't exactly understand atheist philosophy.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)If someone insists there are no invisible undetectable unicorn riding elves living in my basement due to a lack of evidence, I wouldn't consider that a nonsensical statement. Though its impossible to prove nonexistance of something, I would say the odds would defenitely be in favor of those elves not existing.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Atheism. Without theism. Without belief in gods. That's all it means. Anything else is up to the individual. There are (a small number of) explicit atheists who claim gods are impossible, but most of us just refuse to accept the idea without evidence.
Snark aside, do you know ANYONE who has a belief in no afterlife as opposed to no belief in an afterlife? You know the difference surely.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Sorry if you thought I was, though.
do you know ANYONE who has a belief in no afterlife as opposed to no belief in an afterlife? You know the difference surely.
Other than my teenagee brother, no, and, yeah I understand the difference.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Unless someone can provide a solid rationale that a mechanism exists which bypasses a dead human brain to maintain a 'self' - There is no reason to presume the 'self' remains after death ...
Our concept of the world, and our place in the world, is learned from gestation forward to death .... It is based on functional organs operating in a live being, which, upon death, cease to reveal any further activity ....
One would have to believe in a transient soul as the basis of personhood, and there is absolutely NO reason that I can see to believe a soul exists .....
No brain, no concept of self .... no self ? .... a cessation of existence ....
Gone ....
Taverner
(55,476 posts)And what you are seeing, bright white light, etc, is the way your brain behaves in shutting down
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)marginlized
(357 posts)His talks usually include a discussion of afterlife possibilities. As in how is it supposed to work? Exactly what particles, fields, charges are involved?
My questioning is more along the lines of "Will I spend eternity with my parents? or my X?" And that's your idea of heaven? Of course I love them. But "eternity" is a long time. I can't think of anything I want to do for "eternity".
Ok, maybe you're a Hindu or a Buddhist and you're really talking about reincarnation, because then you at least get past the boredom.
Because human minds habituate. Life is addicting. You can't even think without it.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)As a counter challenge, I'd like to suggest Googling Alex Tsakiris. He runs the Skeptiko site and has talked about a variety of things, such as NDEs, etc. Interesting stuff if you're open to a new perspective.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I mean, that's why we as a species make up all kinds of things that make it so when you die, you really don't die. You go to some wonderful place or come back as something.... whatever it takes to die but not die.
All made up for obvious reasons.
I know you really REALLY want there to be an afterlife.... but that won't make it happen.
Still, out of curiosity... what do you think this afterlife is like?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I mean, that's why we as a species make up all kinds of things that make it so when you die, you really don't die. You go to some wonderful place or come back as something.... whatever it takes to die but not die.
All made up for obvious reasons.
And those "obvious" reasons are?
what do you think this afterlife is like?
I dunno, but it's likely to be something not easily explainable by humanity, not now, anyway. But I have seen some pretty convincing arguments for something more being out there and some of them can be found on Alex Tsakiris's site, Skeptiko (dot) com(and what's really interesting is that the skeptics, or 'skeptics', I should say, haven't been able to come up with any convincing counter-arguments).
Looking back on it, though, I realize, and in fact, I wish I had done a better job phrasing my OP.....(though I recall it being in late at night, so that didn't help)...in fact, I probably WILL edit it.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Uh.... no one wants to die.....and be gone forever...
No one I know, anyway.
"on Alex Tsakiris's site, "...
Oh no. Not NDE's! The thing about "Near Death Experiences" is the EXPERIENCE.
How does one experience anything?...near death or in everyday life?
That's right...with your (working) brain. What does one experience when one's brain is NOT working...not working at all?
Nothing. (sometimes even when it is working but unconscious)
And there are posters there saying things like "Death is not well defined"
Uh.... yes it is!
Way too much subjective "pre-drawn" conclusions from incomplete data based of ancient "unscientific" notions that I admit are hard to shake off. Way too much "this is what has been thought since Neanderthals" and irrelevant stuff like that for me.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)As the body goes, so does the mind. A urinary track infection can make a sane person act crazy, often becoming violent. I have seen this in both nursing homes and group homes. When someone who is normally peaceful starts acting violent, they are often tested for UTIs. If something as simple as an infected urinary track can completely change a person's personality, then death most likely annihilates it.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)If you're a Deist, you don't believe in a God who engages with ordinary people. In which case, what evidence do you have that an afterlife, or any supernatural environment exists?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Have you been to Alex Tsakiris's Skeptiko site? There's some interesting info there, if you have time to google it and look at some of the stuff there.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)...can you net down the hard evidence?
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)about near death experiences?
methinks someone is *definitely* in the wrong group. woo is down the aisle.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Response to AverageJoe90 (Original post)
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Stuckinthebush
(11,203 posts)Being a non-theist does not mean one must be a non-survivalist (I don't know if that is a term!)
While I believe that survival of life after death is unlikely I do not connect that belief with my non theism.
kurtzapril4
(1,353 posts)Because I saw one, and I was fully awake, and sober. I was 11 years old.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts) kurtzapril4
(1,353 posts)because I've been an atheist since it was unpopular to be so. As in, there were actual repercussions for being an atheist, and I have suffered for my lack of belief.
I don't look at it as a sunshine and bunny-rabbits afterlife. I believe in physics....conservation of matter. Conservation of matter says that energy cannot be destroyed.
What I saw didn't scare me. It made me awe-struck, and a believer in ghosts. Don't have nothing to do with god.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)As in, there were actual repercussions for being an atheist, and I have suffered for my lack of belief.
I'm sorry to hear that. Virtual hug?
I believe in physics....conservation of matter. Conservation of matter says that energy cannot be destroyed.
Makes sense to me, too.
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)as a reason why there may be ghosts?
Batteries have energy in them, but when they are dead they dead, dead, deadski.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)
bluedave
(366 posts)There is no bigger idiot than one who is sure of his ideas
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)just like religions.
I like to leave a little room for doubt in those areas.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)is not bound to make you many friends.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Thought I shared it once ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121839365