Do You Ever Doubt Your Doubt? and other thoughts

[Heddi]

Last night went to see the in-laws about 2 hours away. Nice day, no stress. It was actually pretty awesome given the vast differences the 15ish of us have in religion, politics, etc.

On the drive back from Baltimore to Philly, Mr Heddi and I were listening to old podcasts of the Ted Radio Hour, this one in particular:

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/18/245949211/believers-and-doubters

I encourage everyone to listen to it. It was very interesting. parts of a TED talk from Billy Graham, Julia Sweeney, Allain De Botton and a few others.

One of the questions, I think it was to Julia Sweeney, was "Do you ever doubt your doubt" (they asked a similar question to the religionists as well).

And that got me thinking. I doubt my doubt all the time. Or at least there are so many times I wish that I could believe.

A few years ago, I got some devistating (and still devestating) health news. I posted in this very forum how I wished I could be comforted by the power of prayer. And I see people with this comfort of God and what religion offers, and there have been times that I was so envious of those who could feel something like that....a light in the darkness, a comforting hand in times of struggle. Something more than what your family or friends could offer. Something....greater.

I've tried to believe. I can't. To me, asking me to believe in God is like asking a Gay man to be heterosexual. It goes against the grain of my very being. It would be a game of pretend and lies if I tried to. I'd be going through the motion without anything real behind it. And then, what's the point?

I have thought the "what if I'm wrong...should I just hedge my bets, pick a God and start praying?" but that thought never goes further than that, again, because it would be lies. It would be just the same to say "should I hedge my bets, and start thinking I"m a mermaid?" because the end result would be the same: I'd be pretending to be something I'm not.

I would really be interested in anyone who heard the podcast, or anyone who's listened to it because of my posting. It's about an hour long, and I kind of hate that they played more of Billy Graham's TED talk than anyone elses, but whatever. Maybe they played more of his "I knew Jesus was either a liar, insane, or right. So no one told me that Jesus was crazy, or a liar, so therefore, he must be right! Tah-dah! Faith and belief are as simple as that. NOw send me some money" just to bookend what the Agnostiscs and Atheists that came after his speech would be talking about, for someone who was, I don't know, living under a rock and unfamiliar with the religious nonsense that gets spouted as "truth".

thoughts?

Happy T'day. I got to hear my 80 year old christian conservative half-deaf step-father-in-law say the word "twerking" last night, which made the drive worth it

[JNelson6563]

1. Bookmarking so I can listen later! Sounds interesting.

lol@ your Thanksgiving report! Glad it was all worth it.

I definitely will have to give this podcast a listen because boy can I relate to what you're talking about!

I was raised Catholic and was a happy believer for a very long time. Indeed, during my darkest days, religion was a great comfort to me. I went on my intellectual quest, left religion behind due to it, and never went back. Since then of course there have been difficult times. I have looked back, longingly sometimes, to the days were religion was a comfort. Have openly admitted to myself that believing would be a lovely sensation. In spite of it all, I just don't believe and refuse to pretend otherwise--most especially to myself.

I don't have a SO to lean on in times of trouble & no parents. I have a couple of brothers who are of no help when needed (quite bogged down with their own troubles pretty much always), a couple of 20-something kids who are incredibly dear to (and currently staying with) me but I don't burden them with my troubles really. Of course I have friends & acquaintances but not quite the same as an actual partner in life so I go it alone. Mind you, this is not a complaint.

When I have sentimental thoughts about belief (as mentioned, when hitting occasional rough patch) I usually just remind myself I'm a big girl with no "daddy" (sky, paternal or otherwise) and I will figure this out like a rational grown up. So that's what I do. Still, it is good to know I am not the only one who experiences this. Like you I envy the comfort the believer draws from faith and, also like you, I know it is not for me. It just cannot be. And that's ok.

In fact, it's wonderful!

Julie

[skepticscott]

2. Yes, very occasionally I wonder

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

if all those religious people might just be on to something, and if it might be wise to hedge bets. But then the weight of reason comes crashing down on those thoughts like a tidal wave, smashing them to smithereens and sweeping them into the intellectual sewer where they belong. I think about how 2000 years of trying has not produced one shred of convincing evidence for "god" and how religion and theology are still all hat and no cattle. And I remember that even if I go to hell for not believing, the company will be excellent.

And that even if I believed in this "god", he is so monstrous, cruel, genocidal, arbitrary and evil that I could never love or worship him, or take comfort from him in any way whatsoever, and still consider myself a human being worthy of living.

Problem solved.

[JNelson6563]

11. Yeah, reality always comes to the rescue!

While the occasional nostalgia may hit I will say that several times a day my mind wanders to the sort of issues you touch on. Often accompanied with "How can anyone believe this?"

I hope you and Mrs. Skeptic had a lovely Thanksgiving!

Cheers,
Julie

[skepticscott]

13. Well, reality does not always bring the comfort we want

In fact, fairly often, it does the opposite. But it IS reality, and I can't live with anything else any more. Knowing that I've faced down reality and coped with it on its own terms is comfort enough for me.

And yes...a lovely holiday here Hope yours was the same, my friend!

[AlbertCat]

18. if all those religious people might just be on to something,

I never ever think this.

Maybe because of all the theatre and film I worked in....I recognize theatre.... which by definition is not real.

[onager]

3. Happy (Late) Twerky Day!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

As for your question, my response is about the same as the posts from JNelson and SkepticScott. Very occasionally, I get a twinge of "maybe there's something to this/so many people believe" etc.

Then I just remind myself that I had those same doubts-about-my-doubt long ago, and nothing has changed. As atheists often point out on That Other DU Forum, what new evidence has religion offered for its claims in the last several thousand years? Not a damn bit. Same old, same old. Other Ways Of Knowing, my lazy ol' butt.

What tickles me is the way they keep huffing about "science and god moving closer together." But when asked to take that to the logical conclusion and REALLY scientifically question religion...oh hell no! My Little God is special, and we're not letting those mean old scientists take a really close look at him.

Now, about North Carolina's biggest ham, the sainted Billy Grab'em.

For some interesting info about Billy Graham, Google the name "Charles Templeton." Templeton knew Graham before he was famous. They toured Europe preaching together, and Templeton was well on his way to becoming a superstar evangelist like Graham.

Maybe because he was Canadian or something, Templeton decided he wanted more info on the history of the Xian religion, the claims about Jesus, etc. etc. He signed up for post-grad work in theology and invited Graham to join him.

Graham responded that he already knew everything he needed to know - Jebus was real, Xianity was the One Truth, etc. No need to learn anything else.

In 1957, Templeton publicly came out as agnostic. And of course, suffered a huge shit-storm from his former Evangelical buddies.

The whole story is in Templeton's 1995 book "Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith."

Oh, and this: Maybe they played more of his "I knew Jesus was either a liar, insane, or right. So no one told me that Jesus was crazy, or a liar, so therefore, he must be right! Tah-dah!

As people all over America will be saying for the next week of turkey salad, turkey hash, etc: "Oh no! Not THIS crap again!"

Billy G. stole that bit from the overrated hack C.S. Lewis. He called it the "Trilemma:" Jesus was either liar, lunatic or lord. It was later dusted off and popularized by the even hackier Fundie scribbler Josh MacDowell, in his book "Evidence That Demands A Verdict." Known to us atheists as "Evidence That Would Be Thrown Out of Court."

The obvious problem with it - there are a lot more than 3 possibilities about Jebus, ranging from completely mythical character to a composite of various Messiahs who were running around Judea at the time. So the whole thing is a con job from the start. As usual.

Sorry this got so wordy. But it's a rainy Friday here and I'm goofing off on the Internet instead of getting stuff done.

EDIT: misspelled "Messiahs." (Mandatory Life Of Brian reference - Yes, I'm a very naughty boy...)

[Heddi]

4. So in the Billy Graham bit

The host is interviewing BG's daughter, and asked if BG ever doubted his faith, and she said that while that's a question he'd have to answer, she thinks the answer is no, and related this story where BG is out in California with some friends and they're all sitting under a tree, and his friends are reading the bible and saying to each other "Well, that part can't be true, and that part probably didn't happen like that" and so on and so forth. And Billy got up all upset and went to into the woods (?) and that's when he came up with the "Jesus is either a liar, insane, or telling the truth" and he went back out to his friends under the tree and told them no way no how was he questioning the bible, that it was the true word of God, every word of it was written as it happened, and he went forth and became the greatest preacher ever known with the largest head of hair and his friends went on and, as his daughter put it, their lives turned to shambles and they suffered horribly because of their Doubt, while ol' Bill just flourished in life and never had anything bad happen because of his Faith.

And I thought "what a shit ass story". and now it makes sense talking about his old Evangelizing buddy. I bet that's who he's talking about in the "under the tree" story.

And now, I realize, even more, what a hunk of shit that story is and what a fucking liar he is. The "under the tree" thing may have happened in some esoteric, it all started when we were having that conversation under the tree, but it wasn't like "hey guys, I'm gonna go in the woods (???) and talk to god. BRB". And then to have stolen the liar/lunatic/light from someone else.

Fuck that guy. Seriously. I never liked his hair, never liked his voice, never liked that Hee-Haw was pre-empted because of his neverending bullshit in the 80's.

[onager]

5. And it gets even better!

Well, now I feel dumb. I always thought C.S. Lewis came up with the "Trilemma" BS.

Nope. It seems to have originated way back in 1844. And Lewis stole it. That figures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma

Aside from his crap TV crusades, one thing that always bugged me about Graham was his naked lust for quasi-political power. "The President's Preacher" etc.

That bit him in the ass during the Nixon years. Graham must have nearly shit his pants when he found out Nixon had been audiotaping him along with everybody else in the White House. And when Nixon went off on an anti-Semitic rant, the tape recorders caught Billy ranting right along with him about the Ebil Jews.

[JNelson6563]

12. Yes, that was something!

More assholery exposed from that asshole.

Good to see you onager!

Julie

[onager]

14. You too!

I haven't been posting much because I've been dealing with some real life issues for the past couple of months. But when I needed a laugh, I knew I could always peek into the Religion group and watch our side play Whack-A-Mole.

[progressoid]

15. " and nothing has changed"

That's the thing that usually gets me too. God seemed to do a lot more stuff before reason and modern science reared it's ugly head.

I'm gonna need a good old fashioned miracle to change my mind.




Also, nice to "see" you again Onager.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. I do not doubt my doubt.

Maybe because my transition from believer to atheist was a slow one, taking tiny steps along the way, I feel comfortable that I have come to the truth.

As to wishing that I could believe, I agree with you that there are times when it would be much easier to have an invisible shoulder to lean on. I do have some jealousy towards the people who are true believers, who can pray and feel better. But I also know from my education on Jesus and the Bible that I cannot fake it. Well, I could fake it to the world, but since God is able to see into my heart, he would know that I was faking, so what is the point. The one that matters in relation to belief would be God, not man, and I can't bluff him. So hedging my bets won't work, will it?

But there is also some comfort in knowing that I have to do this myself. I have to figure out whatever dilemma or situation that comes along, and I can do it. We are like all other animals, struggling to survive, and doing it without help from above.

[TxDemChem]

7. I thought about this on Tuesday

A coworker/family friend has been trying to get me to reconvert. I made the comment that I wish I could still believe in god and angels and she kind if ran off in a different direction, thinking that I wanted to reconvert. I was merely referring to the amount of Xian bullshit being bandied about this holiday season, as it really can get on my nerves.

Lol, she saw me in the hallway as she was attempting to file away some data into a full filing cabinet. I could not help but laugh when she said she'd have to pray for more filing space - especially since there were more drawers and cabinets with plenty if space right there. That right there reminded me if just how silly and illogical religion can make a person. Whatever doubts I may have had were definitely pushed out by her nonsense.

[awoke_in_2003]

8. Not really

the "holy" books were written by people who thought the world was flat, thought the universe revolved around it, and were lucky that they actually knew how to make fire (okay, the last one is a bit of exaggeration). I can't take their "teachings" even a little bit seriously.

[cynatnite]

9. Sometimes I'll wish that a god like I used to believe as a child did exist...

Someone who loved me no matter what, was kind, helpful and all that.

Then I'd wake up from that dream.

Once in a while I do stop and think "what if", but it only takes a few seconds for me to realize that there is no what it.

Man created gods and science rules. Those are the facts and wishful thinking for a stepford wife-like place to live does not exist.

[defacto7]

10. No, not as far as I can see.

That doesn't mean I don't take every occasion to listen with an open mind to a "reasonable" argument and I always leave open the door to changing my mind. But doubt of my atheism? No, that's not part of my repertoire. You either take the facts and stand with them or you don't. I will change my mind, and I am compelled to do so, if the facts as I know them change. There's no room in that for doubt... just reorganizing.

I think possibly some non-believers reminisce old experiences, remembering a time when they had a connection to other believers and they miss the camaraderie. That may at times feel like doubt.

[mr blur]

16. Not for decades.

But I'll give it a listen.

[stone space]

17. Undoubtedly. (nt)

[Heddi]

19. What's up with kicking these ancient threads? THis one was dead for 6 months

the other for 9 months prior to your posts.

Just really odd

[LostOne4Ever]

20. Apparently while we may lack belief in gods

We still believe in necromancy of dead threads in this forum

[stone space]

21. 6 months is "ancient"? Now I'm really feeling old.

Even Creationalists are willing to look back 4000 years.

[edhopper]

22. Spending time on the Religion board

And reading the best arguments believers have, is a sure way to sooth any doubts you might have.