So this Pope isn't a bigoted, heartless, homophobic, child-abuse enabler? So what?

[mr blur]

He isn't supposed to be!
He's supposed to be a Christian!

I'm gobsmacked at the praise he's getting from all over DU and elsewhere.

Isn't it telling that people find it necessary to point out that the leader of the world's biggest Christian cult isn't a nasty moron - as if everyone expects him to be so?

It's like giving the local Fire Chief an award for putting fires out rather than pouring gasoline on them.

Pathetic, really.

[Vashta Nerada]

1. Actually, Francis is a bigot and a homophobe.

He said gay marriage is a "work of the devil" and an "attack on God's plan" and gay adoption is discrimination against children.

It's all here in this HuffPo article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Francis is the same as Ratz. He just doesn't wear the fabulous shoes.

[trotsky]

2. He's not quite as bad as the last guy! Hoo-fucking-ray!

It wouldn't be as bad if hand-in-hand with the "I really like this pope!" posts didn't also come the sentiment that anyone who isn't equally impressed just hates him and religion and wants to destroy good in the world.

No, that would be the pope, who wants to destroy loving relationships and force women to be baby factories (or celibate 2nd class participants in his organization).

That cartoon is spot on, BTW.

[FiveGoodMen]

3. The last Fire Chief DID pour gasoline on everything.

It's asking an awful lot to expect the Pope not to believe what he sees in the Bible.

In the long run, religion's got to go. There's no other fix.

But this guy's still a whole lot better than his predecessor.

[jeff47]

4. Praising the good someone does is not endorsing the entirety of their actions.

The Pope is doing good things on the economic front. Praising that doesn't make his social actions wonderful.

[trotsky]

5. At the risk of going Godwin...

no one is impressed with stories of Hitler's kindness to dogs or Mussolini's ability to get the trains to run on time, either.

[jeff47]

6. Actually, they are.

There's a host of things in our transit systems that were invented by the Nazis. Such as the Interstate. And our military's tactics came right out of Blitzkrieg. And so on. We just don't dwell on the inventors.

The Pope's economic statements are helpful in shaking up the religious right. That's a good thing, even if the pope is wrong on social issues. Because we can use that shakeup to fix not only those economic issues, but also those social issues: he is starting a fracture among the religious right between the actual Christians and Ryandians. That greatly weakens their political power, allowing us to go well beyond what the pope says.

[trotsky]

7. But that's the thing - these aren't the pope's ideas.

Unlike Nazis and war methods, the RCC didn't invent these concepts. They've even supported brutal economic behavior when it suited them.

The new pope is speaking out against capitalism and greed. That's fantastic. Are they going to deny communion to politicians who vote for trickle-down economics, like bishops did for pro-choice Democrats?

Remember: the new pope has reiterated his (and his church's) opposition to homosexual relationships, reproductive freedom, and the equality of women. Those are 3 huge issues for progressives - and his church actively works against all of them in countries all over the globe. His church is also the largest, most vocal opponent of "Obamacare" - which ironically does a whole lot to help the poor and downtrodden that Francis claims to care for.

[jeff47]

9. We'll see where it leads, but we should encourage it.

We don't know if it will end up with stupid things like denying communion. But we should encourage it.

Remember: the new pope has reiterated his (and his church's) opposition to homosexual relationships, reproductive freedom, and the equality of women. Those are 3 huge issues for progressives

And we could do a lot more on those issues if the religious were not completely dominated by the right in this country. Economics is a great opening to start driving the wedge in.

[trotsky]

10. What does it mean to encourage it?

Lay Catholics themselves have no control over their church - they certainly don't vote (except with their dollars, by leaving!).

The feeling I get from folks repeating the same message you are is basically that we should say "hooray" on this message board and NOT TALK ABOUT ANY OF THE BAD STUFF HE WANTS OR SUPPORTS or else you get dismissed as a pope- and/or religion-hater.

Sorry, I can't do that. And quite frankly, there is no amount of "encouragement" that even all of DU united could muster that would change a thing. Let's be real.

In addition, your last paragraph reads to me that you want to out-Jesus the fundies, to use religion to advance our political agenda - no different than what they are doing. That, as a non-believer, makes me HIGHLY uncomfortable.

[jeff47]

11. By saying "good job" when someone does a good job

regardless of the shitty jobs they do elsewhere.

In this case, we can cheer on the Pope for his economic statements. That doesn't mean his social positions are now good.

The feeling I get from folks repeating the same message you are is basically that we should say "hooray" on this message board and NOT TALK ABOUT ANY OF THE BAD STUFF HE WANTS OR SUPPORTS or else you get dismissed as a pope- and/or religion-hater.

People on this board are quite familiar with the shitty positions of the Catholic church. You don't need to remind everyone by showing up to a thread that is saying "good job" for the economic statements and demanding we all stop that because their social positions are awful.

In addition, your last paragraph reads to me that you want to out-Jesus the fundies

Not at all. Let them Jesus themselves. What I'm saying is if they are politically fractured, they will have much less political power. That will result in us being able to push through changes because they are no longer monolithic.

What do we need to do? Keep talking about economics with them. No religion necessary.

[trotsky]

12. And what exactly does an anonymous post of "good job" on a message board do?

Make you feel better?

Guess what - it's a discussion board. Whether someone wants to blow smoke up the pope's ass or call out his extremely misogynistic, homophobic agenda - why does it matter? I think it's great that people remember that with any little bit of good the pope does, he's diametrically opposed to much of the progressive agenda. Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

And if no religion is necessary to talk economics with them, why does it matter what the pope says?

[jeff47]

13. What exactly does an anonymous post of "But look at their social positions!!" do?

About the same as that "good job" post.

I think it's great that people remember that with any little bit of good the pope does, he's diametrically opposed to much of the progressive agenda. Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

You realize that trite phrase means the exact opposite of what you are proposing, right?

To keep your enemies closer, you'd be getting buddy-buddy with them. As in, posting "good job on the economic front!".

And if no religion is necessary to talk economics with them, why does it matter what the pope says?

Because a whole lot of religious people listen to him. This large shift from his predecessors will cause a shift in those that listen to him.

[trotsky]

14. Well then now that you think there is no point of posting anything on DU, evidently...

I'm going to continue criticizing the pope, making sure his (and his church's) policies that stand in direct opposition to what we are fighting for remain front and center. That's what I mean about keeping enemies closer. Keep that critical eye on them, don't say "good job" and minimize (or don't even mention, or just attack those who point out) what else there is. And with the RCC, that's a fucking lot. Far more than I'm willing to ignore, sorry. I have too many LGBT friends and family members, some of whom have been directly harmed by the RCC and its policies.

So while you're claiming I'm contradicting myself while then saying yourself that religion isn't necessary but really it is, I'll sign off and let you have any last word you'd like.

[jeff47]

15. No, I said nothing about what it accomplishes.

I never said there was no point. Apparently you think posts on DU are worthless.

That's what I mean about keeping enemies closer.

You're free to use the phrase wrong. But pushing your enemies is not a way to bring them close.

The concept behind the quote is to study your opponents so that 1) They can not double-cross you, and 2) you can double-cross them.

Speaking against them is not keeping them close.

So while you're claiming I'm contradicting myself

Nope, I'm pointing out you are misusing the quote.

while then saying yourself that religion isn't necessary but really it is

Nope, it isn't necessary. But people who listen to the pope - shockingly enough - listen to the pope. Doesn't mean we all have to, nor that they have to on every single subject.

The good for us is using this as a lever to break apart the hegemony that thwarts the social issues you support. If you feel too icky using it for that gain, so be it. But others of us are going to use whatever levers we can find.

[progressoid]

8. Love that toon!

[Warpy]

16. He is many of those things

but he's such an abrupt change from the usual anti feminine (covering women and gays) monomania that people have noticed.

I still think he's going to be big on rhetoric but will be stymied from effecting real changes in the church and its institutions by the entrenched conservative bureaucracy.

I'd love to be proven wrong. I just don't think I am.

[rexcat]

17. Talk is cheap...

change within the church bureaucracy isn't going to happen anytime soon or for that matter anytime in the distant future. A paradigm shift within the catholic church is not in the cards. I do believe the last pope made sure the upper echelon of the church (voting cardinals) were conservative. That seems to be the nature of the beast. I would think there are some cardinals who voted for him to be pope are now shitting bricks.

[Vashta Nerada]

18. According to a poster in this thread, anyone who questions the pope is a republican:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4124694

You know, because any LGBT person who questions the actions of a bigot is obviously a republican.

[uriel1972]

19. Used to be anyone who questioned the pope...

was a godlesspinkocommie... or somesuch. How times change. That said The PR might change, but I'd like to see some doctrinal change before I start chorusing Hallelujah.

[Vashta Nerada]

20. Don't hold your breath.

Francis is the same as Ratz. The only difference is that Francis has better PR.

[deucemagnet]

24. Exactly.

?1

[defacto7]

21. I'm really tired of the pope posts

in GD and LBN. It's so NOT news anymore and the rhetoric is completely faith natured.

They should be in religion... or here in Atheists and Agnostics!!!!

[LostOne4Ever]

22. They desperately want the Pope to be good

And remain intentionally blind to the fact that the Pope's actions do not match his words. They want to think that one of the leaders of their religious beliefs is a good guy standing up for justice and righteousness, rather than just a spin doctor trying to improve the churches image.

Yet, what policies has he changed? What action, beyond meaningless token gestures, has the pope done to change the church for the better? The churches policy on gays, contraception, women, non-believers, etc has changed how?

Regardless, I could not care less about Pope Fransisco. I am no longer a Catholic and he could declare that all atheists are going straight to heaven and not affect me or get me to consider going back. I will still find the theology abhorrent and unbelievable.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. I believe that members of most religions sense that the end of their ideology is near...

And they will not go quietly.

This PR offensive by the Vatican is meant to forestall that, for a little while at least.