Is this a place for rational discourse?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by EvolveOrConvolve (a host of the Atheists & Agnostics group).

I would like to think so. In fact, it would be my hope that it would be second only to the science forum.

I fear that some of you will jump me quickly. Please do not do that.

I feel that by presenting issues in conflict one can bring clarity to understanding.

That is my only hope.

I have made it clear in all threads where issues relevant here come up that I KNOW that religions have been a powerful destructive force for thousands of years.

Why am I here?

I want to understand what makes me feel uncomfortable with the term atheist.

Can anyone help?

[Warren Stupidity]

1. rational discourse is not a requirement here :-)

I rather doubt anyone other than you can understand what makes you feel uncomfortable with the term atheist. You might try expressing your discomfort rather than hoping that we are going to guess what it might be.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

4. The word carries baggage that is thousands of years old.

My philosophical believes lean strongly to the skeptical.

This goes deep. I wonder if our brains have evolved in a way that will allow us to "understand" reality.

I point to only two of many possible examples: Einstein and his struggle with light quanta and Feynman, who said you will not understand QED - I do not understand it.

I will point out another - Rodger Penrose - his book The Emperor's New Mind - It seem to me to be a clear exploration of our abilities - and what seems to be outside our abilities.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. so far I've got nothing.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

19. not sure where you are going with this responce

can you be more clear in your intent

[AtheistCrusader]

129. Einstein died many decades before we discovered several properties of light.

So uh yeah. So fucking what.

[edgineered]

2. would a flea collar help?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

6. This responce is not helpful to me.

Hope it did something good for your mind.

[edgineered]

8. relative to events in this group over the past several days

i likened banishment to the belling of a cat and commented that since such occurance more cats have arrived, perhaps thinking the bells were flea collars.

so yes, your reply did something positive in my mind - your relevance has been determined.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

9. I do not understand your responce

and it does not seem that you are interested in helping me.

BE well -

[edgineered]

10. coaching, counseling, and proselytizing are a few groups over ->

[SoLeftIAmRight]

12. Thank you

I will investigate.

[mr blur]

3. Well, are we supposed to...guess?

I have no idea what makes you feel uncomfortable with the term atheist.

Do you feel threatened? Mocked? Afraid? Misunderstood?

Give us a clue.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

14. I wonder what makes the question of god a valid question.

"Do you feel threatened? Mocked? Afraid? Misunderstood?"

No to all. I like to think that we live in a determined universe. The implications of that leads one to explore certain concepts that bring into question our ability to understand reality.

I can not bring myself to the point where I feel that the question of god is a real question and therefor I do not even venture to answer such questions.

[jeff47]

22. It isn't a valid question. God is a salve for a capricious world.

Our ancestors had no clue about what was going on around them. They just hadn't figured out much. So they faced all sorts of random disasters that appeared out of the blue.

Why did the rains not come? Well, we now know about weather, El Nino/La Nina, and a host of other things that let us understand why those rains didn't come. We also have some ability to predict the disaster, and technologies to help mitigate the worst of the disaster. To our ancestors, it was just a disaster that was going to cause half of the village to starve.

Why did that good family just get wiped out by smallpox? They were so nice, and now they're all dead. Now we know about viruses and vaccines, while they just had dead bodies.

Enter religion. It gave humans a feeling of control. There was a ritual to perform to bring the rains, and another ritual to appease the rain god when they did not come. There was something they could do about disasters instead of having to passively accept them.

Over time, religion evolved into a tool of control. The priest that kept the rains falling was very important, so he got a lot of perks. That allowed him to assert control over the people around him. But there was that damn priestess who helped to keep everyone in the village healthy, and she was also trying to assert some control.

Enter monotheism. No more competition from the other priests. You were the guy with the connection to the God who did everything.

Add on to that some psychological techniques to embed religion in society (gotta pray before eating, gotta go to the church to get married so you can have sex, etc) and you get "modern" religions and their firm entrenchment. The practitioners are reminded over and over and over again about their religion, and it starts being "weird" to not follow the rituals.

Atheists upend that. So atheists are despised by those who use religion as their power base. And so they teach their followers to despise atheists.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

27. I like these ideas

Tor Norretranders has some good points along this line of thinking in term of the emergence of consciousness. He speculates that the move from poly to mono is a result of this emergence.

My thoughts are more related to the idea of a determined universe and what that implies.

[jeff47]

29. IMO, the only deterministic thing is the laws of physics won't be violated.

Everything else is probability. There's a 99.999999999999999999999999...% chance that the atoms in your computer won't spontaneously fuse into heavier elements. That isn't 100%. Over a long enough time and in a big enough universe, extremely unlikely things will happen.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

31. Yes - that does seem to be the case

But this has move away from what I am wanting to explore.

On edit - I want to make it clear that I was responding to "pop" ideas in a "pop" way

[jeff47]

33. Then stop hinting at what you want to explore and start talking about it.

We aren't telepathic.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

34. For you, at this time, my question is

By what means did you come to you position -

It is a very personal question and I would be happy if you wanted to continue by private mail

[jeff47]

36. I was born into an atheist family.

I'm at least 4th generation atheist. It gets harder to tell as you trace back through history, due to the ever-increasing stigma as you go backwards.

So I started as atheist as my default position, and did not find any compelling reason to change.

If anything, learning about religions turned me off even more to them. For example, the paradox of evil is a very large problem I have with any mainstream religion.

Aside from the problems with their dogma, I don't feel like I have any unresolved questions that would lead me towards a religion. The universe simply is, and it behaves the way it does. There's no need to introduce magic into the situation. If anything, magic detracts from the amazing reality in which we live.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

44. I want to stay away from the religion topic

I do want to point out that good ideas are good ideas.

They are not practiced but things like forgiving, meditating, being kind... are found in religious ideas.

None that can not be found in other places.

I saw this quote recently. It made me think.

"religion is too important for atheist to ignore" At first I said of course, we must fight those ideas. But then I thought using the good ones does no harm.

You have been lucky to have been raised without the crazy magic thinking.
I went out of my way to raise my daughter in that way. Damn the Harry Potter stuff...

[Curmudgeoness]

58. Discussing atheism while staying away from the religion topic

doesn't make sense to me. Without gods and religion, there would be no atheism....they are connected.

What is it you want from the people here in A&A?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

60. everything

In the fight against the destructive forces of religion there are things that have better chances of making progress than others.

Saying I am an atheist - you are stupid is not going to work.

You may have no interest in that battle - I do.

I like "navel gazing" as one of this group pointed out. Like this is a bad thing...

I have looked at the words of many great people and when they reference religious ideas I feel that I should consider those thought.

Right now I am reading about consciousness - from the neuroscientist point of view. I am deep in the navel gazing mode.

[Curmudgeoness]

61. "I am an atheist - you are stupid"

I saw no one say that here but you in one of your comments. I am not sure what you mean by this statement isn't going to work. Work for what? We are not selling anything and we are not trying to convert anyone.

Your original question was about why the word "atheist" makes you uneasy, but I have seen nothing here about why that is a problem for you. It is your right to consider what great people have to say about religious ideas, but make sure that you study those in the context that they are said as well as the times that they lived in. Besides, everyone has their own thoughts and opinions on religion and god, and they are free to have those opinions. It doesn't make them "right" or others "wrong".

Enjoy your navel gazing, but I am not that into it.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

64. this is what I should have said

In The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in a personal god qualifies as a delusion

And I agree with him.

This way of saying it will not change minds - What, if it was necessary, changed yours?

[Curmudgeoness]

66. Reading the Bible.

Reading the Bible was enough to start me thinking that it was all bullshit. After reading, I suppose that I did some navel gazing. I thought through what I had read and been taught, and it became easier and easier to realize that it was all a scam.

I don't want to change minds though. I do want people to think, and they can come up with their own conclusions.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

68. Thank you

I do want to change minds.

As far as the bible goes - I found a dozen or so nice ideas.

For me, being raised Southern Baptist it was easy to see through it - I was six or seven when I realized it was bullshit.

Proud of that. But, after more than fifty years I still feel that sometimes in some unconscious way there is still garbage in my mind.

[Curmudgeoness]

71. Of course there is garbage in your mind.

All the shit that those of us who were raised with religion will be with us for our entire lives. It doesn't mean that we have to believe that any of it is more than the fairy tales that we were told as children. Your mind still knows about Cinderella, but do you believe that there are fairy godmothers and "happily ever after" princes?

Time to take out the garbage.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

74. I do - whenever I find some

What do we have to offer those that have not started this process?

I think it is important to work against wrong thinking (republicans) of all flavors.

[edhopper]

70. The God Delusion

brought many to atheism and many more to question the existence of God. I think Dawkins did change minds. in fact i know he did.

You're quoting wiki not Dawkins. And without the larger context of the whole book, it is misleading.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

75. I just threw that out as an example of wording that might...

no work with some people.

Hope you did not think that
I was summing up all of Dawkins with part of one sentence.

[edhopper]

80. got it

[jeff47]

93. If you're going to talk about atheism, you're inherently talking about religion.

It's a term about religion, so the discussion will necessarily be about religion.

They are not practiced but things like forgiving, meditating, being kind... are found in religious ideas.

Those ideas are not found from religion. They predate all religions. Religion co-opted them as part of their marketing.

And if you find something beneficial about meditating, fine. IMO it's just a placebo.

I went out of my way to raise my daughter in that way. Damn the Harry Potter stuff...

Fiction's a wonderful thing for a child. Imagining a magical place is great. You just have to remember it's imagination and not reality.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

102. well done

what do you do with this?

It has been show that just by standing in a certain position the biological processes of your body change.

see TED talk superman pose

[jeff47]

106. Gasp!! You mean I'm more likely to sleep when laying down!!?!?!?!

How stunning!!!!!

Next thing you'll tell me that running causes different biological processes than sitting on the couch watching TV!! We can declare running to be a cleansing ritual and build a religion around it. Then we can chew out atheists for not accepting it.

It's become abundantly clear you're someone who believes himself to be a deep thinker, but are operating in a shallow pool.

Part of atheism is there is no dogma. You should stop trying to create some.

[Cartoonist]

5. Atheist is a beautiful word

No hidden meanings, just a non belief in theism. No rules, no charge. If you are uncomfortable, maybe you still haven't broken free of religion.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

7. I have never heard anyone say that - beautiful word

For me it is not about breaking free. I am more divorced from the concept than I think one who rejects it is. For me the question itself is meaningless.

[mr blur]

11. Of course you will get "rational discourse", if that's what you want.

Please be aware that some come here for other reasons ( ) and we have learned to be wary. It is a fact that the religionistas round here are neither comfortable with the rational, nor friendly when their privilege is challenged.

So, how does the term "atheist" make you feel exactly?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

15. I do not believe that the question is a "real" question

I feel as if our minds are not built to understand reality. If feel wonder at the universe and great pleasure when I find ideas that explain many many things. Quite shocked in fact at what we have learned.

[bvf]

13. I have similar trouble

with the term "parallelogram."

Oh, and "constabulary."

Can you tell me why?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

18. Well lets take a look...

Most parallelograms I understand well. But only in Euclidean Geometry.

Wow - had to look up constabulary - was not far off in my thoughts

Why do you have trouble with these words? I can not tell, but you seem to be making a point in an obscure way. Care to be more clear when making a point - I am sometimes slow on the pickup.

many thanks

[bvf]

21. Okay.

"Most parallelograms I understand well. But only in Euclidean Geometry."

So which parallelograms don't you understand well?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

25. This question seems very far from the topic

But here is your answer -


Take a parallelogram where one of the verities is at the origin and an other one is at the the point pi, pi.

What meaning does this point have at beyond ten to the minus 60? We do just not know.

[bvf]

37. Did you mean "vertices" just then?

Please clarify your last statement. I'm not at all clear what you mean by "what meaning does this point have..."

[SoLeftIAmRight]

46. Yes - thanks for the correction

For mathematicians there are limits in how far to carry the Platonist view point.

These idealized geometric constructions are considered "God-given" (Rodger Penrose's words not mine).
Still there are limits. One being the idea of a limit. Hofstadter likens the concept to a genie asking agenie asking a genie... and then getting an answer.

In physics the division of space (ie the line) does not seen to have meaning at the scale I mentioned?

Do you understand this?

[bvf]

49. Before I put you on ignore once and for all

I would suggest you try to actually comprehend what you yourself read. If you can't even grasp the fact that a (Euclidean) parallelogram is specified by three points, I highly doubt you can grasp the concept of Platonic Forms, much less comprehend Penrose, Popper, or even Deutsch, for that matter.

Good luck in your search for truth, or deliberately wasting everyone's time, or whatever it is you do.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

52. What do you have to say about the ideas expressed by these people?

or - good luck to you also

[LiberalAndProud]

16. You've connected the word to a belief system; a doctrine.

That would make me itchy too.

Start here http://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism
Subscribe to theAtheistExperience on YouTube

Listen and learn and stop lecturing me about the (wrong) meaning of the word. It's irritating.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

20. The semantics of the word is not as important as the historical baggage to me

Thank you for the link - I am looking now -

[SoLeftIAmRight]

23. on the front page

"The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints."

I guess my question is even more important to me - and that is, how does each individual come to this way of thinking. What are, if any, the common threads?

[LiberalAndProud]

24. If you're looking for answers to existential questions,

you're not likely to find them here. The only common thread we share as a group is that we do not believe in one or many deities. Period. End of sentence.

There are some great world philosophies that may help you in your quest. Unbelief just won't fill that bill. Try the Buddhism Group maybe.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

30. Ok

Of course I like exploring existential questions - and I know how to explore that interest - and do.

I am looking for what leads one to come the the position and for what purpose.

[LiberalAndProud]

32. You've changed up the question since you started this conversation.

To what purpose? I like Matt Dillahunty's answer to that one.

"to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible,"

[SoLeftIAmRight]

35. Very Very Good

But then we come to the "existential"

What is believing?
What is true?
What is false?
What is thinking?

It is good to look at existential questions. In that struggle we can come to see ourselves and our belief in a clearer light.

[LiberalAndProud]

38. What?

This is getting truly absurd.

[bvf]

39. Troll or navel-gazer.

My money's on the first, but I could be wrong.

[LiberalAndProud]

40. Cloying.

I had come to the same conclusion. Little gnat.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

43. This was a very unkind responce

I will not wonder long at your intent

I will feel sad for your lack of curiosity in matters that have occupied some of the greatest minds.

[bvf]

45. Sucks to be you then, I guess.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

48. IS THIS WHAT IS ALLOWED IN THE GROUP

I know there are some thoughtful people here. You have not shown yourself to be one of them.

Want to try again?

[Warren Stupidity]

99. Actually all caps is Strictly Prohibited.

But at least we've gotten somewhere with the cause of your unease about atheism.

One obvious cause is athests.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

107. did not know about the caps

Wrong conclusion - I think - for you, I do not know what you think, believe about this issue

[Warren Stupidity]

132. Well Consider This Your Final Warning

Either Start Using CamelCase Or It Will Be Off To The Pillory For You.

[LiberalAndProud]

50. Possibly so.

It seems to me that you're being vacuous, all the time suggesting that without religious belief, we can't possibly consider the larger philosophical questions.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that you really are unfamiliar with thinking. GMAFB.

[Rainforestgoddess]

94. Before we can answer those questions

We have to define "what" and "is".
But before we can tackle that, we should discuss the complete etymology of the English language, and whether parrots understand words, or is it merely mimicry? And how can they even speak when their tongues are dry? What is a tongue? Why does the word tongue make me feel uneasy?

....

I have no patience for philosophical gibble gabble. I find it tedious and ridiculous. Reading this whole thread was silly enough, but the post I'm responding to made me laugh out loud.

If you have a straightforward honest question, you will find straightforward honest answers from most here. If you wibble around as you have been, you will eventually get anything from confrontation as to your motives to glibness and snark. As others have said, perhaps you should explore a different group. Is there a philosophy group here where such lofty and nebulous ideas can be contemplated?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

96. to each their own

"I have no patience for philosophical gibble gabble"

Stay on shore - some like to swim in the deep.

[Rainforestgoddess]

100. Okee dokey

Though to those of us with our feet planted on the ground, it looks like you aren't really interested in a conversation you are just floundering around trying to "out deep" everyone. And for an "evangelical agnostic" looking for talking points to convert the religious to your viewpoint, you won't catch a lot of fish with your insubstantial bait. (look at me and my water metaphors!)

[SoLeftIAmRight]

105. that is a sharp observation

100 points

But still - lets swim

[edgineered]

54. this one's been in the catnip!

[Goblinmonger]

26. Nobody is going to jump on you for asking that question.

Usually the reason someone doesn't get along here is because of attitude.

Nobody in this group is stupid. Nobody in this room hasn't thought long and hard about their atheism. Respect that and all should be good.

As to what seems to be the heart of the question you are getting at: I don't think there is any unique common path that brings people to atheism. We could probably come up with 10 or so common events that people could say "Yeah, that's kind of like me," but it's a pretty personal thing. Some have been raised atheist. Some were very devout believers. Some have very harsh memories of their time in religion. Others don't.

Atheism just means that one doesn't believe in gods. That's it. All the other baggage that comes with it is, in my opinion, added by the believers of the world that want us to be something else. That want to attach other concepts to it. Why? No clue. Probably the whole "lots of different path arguments" but I think a lot has to do with the fact that if someone who is reasonably intelligent came to the answer that they just don't believe in any god, then that puts their conclusion on some thin ice.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

28. Thank you

It is these "long and hard" examinations that I would like to hear about.

The baggage that I am talking about is not the common baggage - it is the baggage of the great thinkers that I want to see explored.

[mr blur]

41. " it is the baggage of the great thinkers that I want to see explored."?

You need a library, I think.

[edhopper]

42. How do you feel about

unicorns, faries, Alien visitation, the Loch Ness monster and psychics?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

47. I you really want to know...

unicorns - I would look to English majors and inquire as to their literary significance?

Faries - about the same

Loch Ness - and big foot -- most unlikely

psychics - there is one born every minute

Alien visitation - I look forward to the event

Now, a much better question is Do You Beleve that there are sentient beings out there?
BUT, no that is not the way to ask the question.

The way to ask the question is this - Is it possible that conditions exist were they could develop and how likely is that?

Got an answer?

[edhopper]

51. The evidence suggest it is likely, or at least very possible.

but that is just a speculation based on what we have discovered of the Universe. But has nothing to do with my questions

The questions were used to point out that without any evidence of these things, and with what facts we do have run counter to their existence we can say with a high degree of certainty that they do not exist. If extraordinary evidence for these claims is shown, we can revisit our thinking.

It is no different with god, No evidence and what we do know runs counter to the concept. Therefore we don't believe nor accept the existence of a God. This is atheism for many.

Why does that make you uneasy?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

53. You keep suggesting that i am "uneasy"

not at all

What do you do with this:

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

This is very different from unicorns. And I do not want to be sidetracked into a discussion about religion.
Just a question for you to think about.

Two things - "religion is too important for atheist to ignore" saw this recently We must fight the destructive force of religion - It seems like trying to talk to a republican - but it is necessary.
I am an atheist - you are stupid - this is not a way to change minds. You may not care to change minds - I do.

and, I think understanding what one believes and how one comes to that position is important.

[edhopper]

63. I used uneasy instead of uncomfortable

you obviously don't think they are synonyms (Roget does) so replace uneasy with your word; uncomfortable.

Why can't you address my point. That I see the discussion of unicorns, faries, ghosts, Alien UFO's and bigfoot the same as God.
Things for which there is no evidence.
I don't mind if you want to hold out for the possibility of some underlying supernatural spirit in the Universe. I accept your agnosticism. Why does my atheism, my nonacceptance of a deity make you uncomfortable.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

65. I do not see them as the same

Einstein did not talk about unicorns - he wrote many things about religion

Same with many great minds -

I do not scramble many things together.

Let's not go there.

My interest is in thinking, believing, knowing - as those term relate to our consciousness.

And I am an evangelical agnostic and find that my views rest on firm foundation. I am not as threatening to the god people.

[edhopper]

67. Okay

and I explained my thinking.

Einstein also did not like Quantum Mechanics. so what?

That is exactly where I am going.

I do see God in the same category as other fanciful concepts.

Why should the current charaterization of a God being any more realistic than Zeus or Baal? No evidence.

You say that makes you uncomfortable, I get why you don't agree, but why it makes you uncomfortable would be something you have to figure out for yourself.

Are you just uncomfortable with people who don't see things the same as you do?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

69. as an evangelical agnostic

who believes that religion corrupts the thought process and causes mass destruction, I find that I want to push back.

While it is like talking with republicans - I still do.

The "softer" agnostic position is not a conversation killer and I find it more easily rationally justified.

[edhopper]

73. That is another matter

How one talks to believers, or how one gets people to question their beliefs in a God is one matter.

How one frames their own ideas on the subject is another.

Is it just the hard atheistic approach to conversations that makes you uncomfortable, and not the actual position of not accepting any God.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

76. YES YES YES

I truly believe that the term agnostic is more grounded in rational thought.

Atheist, (even from a poets point of view is a harsh sounding word) just rubs me the wrong way.

[edhopper]

79. So it's the approach to the conversation

you see some atheists as taking. Saying belief in a Super Sky Daddy is delusional and such, that rubs you the wrong way.

Not the thinking that a Super Sky Daddy (or any supernatural entity) is an irrational concept.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

86. That is a lot of words you are trying to putting in my mouth

and you have debased the conversation with your flippant attitude.

It is not even clear to me what you are saying.

[edhopper]

88. I wasn't trying to be flip

I am asking is it the way you see some atheist having conversations about beliefs that rubs you the wrong way.

Or the way some atheists actually think about belief that you are uncomfortable with.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

97. Thank you - that was very clear

Belief should be grounded - and understood as beliefs.

I can justify my ignorance of the possibility - but I can not justify my conviction that god does not exist.

Can you prove it to me with science?

As I
have said before - I am not sure that we have a brain that can understand light for what it is - Einstein said that he had spent 50 years pondering light quant and came up with nothing.

The question of a, in Einstein's words, "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. " troubles me. In a determined universe that is what there is.

[edhopper]

108. So you are bothered

by atheist who see no evidence for a God, and discount the possibility without some new evidence

You think being agnostic is somehow more rational.

I don't, that makes you uncomfortable.

Einstein said a lot of things. So did a lot of very smart people. Use your own words instead of his cryptic ones.

You are looking like a believer who thinks quoting the bible makes his point.

[Curmudgeoness]

83. You have been brainwashed.

If the word "atheist" rubs you the wrong way, it is only because you are listening to the people who are anti-atheist.

Get over it.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

85. Not a helpful responce

Do you have any important thoughts, ideas, theories that you would care to share with me?

Looks like you are just being mean to me.

[Curmudgeoness]

87. What....The....Hell.

You say that the word "atheist" bothers you, and I said that was because you are being influenced by people who hate atheists just because they exist. Those haters can make any word a "dirty word" if they spin it right. (Think "liberal".) You have to get over that sort of thinking.

The last thing I am being is mean, but since you are so thin-skinned, it is probably a good idea for you to stay off of internet discussion boards.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

90. I think that I posted to the wrong place

that was not for you - sorry

[Warren Stupidity]

101. "evangelical agnostic" - snort -

[Goblinmonger]

109. I think he'd get along well with the

militant atheist we all know.

[LiberalAndProud]

55. Disingenuous much?

I'd show you the door, but I think you know the way.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

56. no

am interested in why you would say that

[LiberalAndProud]

57. Stop with the baiting.

I'll be finished with you now.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

59. Be well

but, you have put a label on me that is not correct

[edgineered]

62. You show yourself as yet another apologist,

in one of your replies upthread -

"religion is too important for atheist to ignore" At first I said of course, we must fight those ideas. But then I thought using the good ones does no harm.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

72. no you have twisted my words

My point was a simple one - good ideas are good ideas

[edgineered]

77. a cut and paste of what you said is twisting your words? really? SoLIAR

[Curmudgeoness]

81. .........

[SoLeftIAmRight]

82. you have debased yourself

there was no need to slur me.

Be kind is an idea that is found in some religions - is it bad to be kind?

It seem that you want to fight - do you have any good ideas that you care to share with me?

[skepticscott]

78. If you want to be considered as anything but

a baiter and a disingenuous disruptor, you might make your opening gambit something other than a backhanded insult of the entire Group.

Posts in ALL CAPS don't help your pose as a seeker of enlightenment, either.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

84. Thank you for the advice

I opened the way I did because I bumped into some of the more vocal of this group in other threads and though I would come take a look.

Still looking for the good ideas that I am sure the people in this group have to share.

[beam me up scottie]

92. If that is true maybe you should have bumped into some of the other threads in here first.

Still looking for the good ideas that I am sure the people in this group have to share.

Members of this group share their "good" ideas every day, if you see nothing of value then you probably have no interest in discussing what's important to others.


I suggest purchasing a good quality mirror.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

110. another hostile remark

I have and will continue to find these good ideas that are posted here every day.

It seems that you will be no help in showing me a logical basis for your position.

It would be nice if you would move on unless you can offer something.

[beam me up scottie]

113. I answered your question in the other thread.

You asked:

What was the thought process by which you came to your position?

I responded that there was none and that I was born an atheist.

How much more logical can I be?

[LostOne4Ever]

89. Sorry didn't see this post until now

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I had you on ignore for some reason I don't remember.

Must not of been too important so I have moved you to block mail and if this conversation is pleasant I might remove you from my ignore list altogether. Conversely, if our discussion turns sour I might move you back to full ignore.

Right now I am kind in and out, but I will try and have a rational discussion with you as time allows.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with the word atheist? I really don't know but could hazard a few guesses. Rather I would like some more information.

Maybe if you told us what the word means to you? And by "what the word means to you" I don't mean definition. I mean what image pops into your head when you hear the word atheist? Maddy O'Hair? Richard Dawkins? Niel DeGrasse Tyson? A normal person, an angry person?

By describing this I hope to see your biases and maybe get some insight into what it is about the word that bothers you.[/font]

[SoLeftIAmRight]

95. I have reponded to so many on this subject

And might repeat myself

A poet might say the the word itself has a harshness about it and I would agree.

The term has thousands of years of baggage - the "soft" form that I have been told about over and over and.. seems to be better described by the term agnosticism.

I think it possible that our brains have not evolved in a way that will make it possible to "see reality"
(light quanta - wave particle ) - The question of the existence of god does not make sense to me because their are no definitions.

Almost forty years ago double in Mathematics / Philosophy and too much time since (as has been suggested here) navel gazing. I just like it. The difference between knowing, thinking, believing are something I take into consideration.

The have atheistic position seems to me to be only speculation.

Religion has been a very destructive influence on thinking and the world (think war)

You asked - what image - Not Dawkins, Tyson, they use the term personal god.

It might be that some of the hostile rebukes that are in this thread colors my view.

Mostly I look at atheist as people who think that they have an understanding of reality sufficient to make bold claims.

[LiberalAndProud]

98. Really. That's not offensive.

/sarcasm

[SoLeftIAmRight]

104. your responce went over my head

not sure what you are trying to convey

[A HERETIC I AM]

124. If you spell that word wrong one more time...

I'm Going to hit you with a cricket bat


"response" does not have a "C" In it.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

126. Thanks for the s

never won a spelling b

[Goblinmonger]

111. I don't get your poet point--as to the word itself.

I'm an English teacher. Help me out. It starts with a vowel and has two very smooth dipthongs. What about that would make it harsh as a word before we even get to the meaning. I mean "gutter" has a harshness because of the glottal start to the word. "Zeitgeist" is pretty harsh. "Atheist" is a pretty smooth word.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

114. You make your point well

ist - fist - twist- mist- wrist

Not sounds that would lull a baby to sleep - just my opinion

[Goblinmonger]

115. Well

The itsy-bitsy spider is pretty close to the same sound.

"They will guard thee at rest, thou shalt wake on my breast" from Brahams Lullaby ends with only a subtle vowel difference.

The end might be a little hard, but the bulk of the word is not.

[edhopper]

112. Okay

As an agnostic what have you ever seen to show the possibility of a supernatural entity that interacts with this Universe.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

116. Nothing - Absolutly nothing

But this quote does give me pause - only because I think we live in a determined universe and that there are logical conclusions that seem to fall forth.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

I saw this quote almost 40 years ago - stopped calling myself an atheist - when agnostic

[edhopper]

117. I don't know what you mean about

A "determined universe"

Also Einstein used words like God as alagory, not about an actual being, or a spiritual idea.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

118. see determinism

from wiki -

Some of the main philosophers who have dealt with this issue are Marcus Aurelius, Omar Khayyám, Thomas Hobbes, Baruch Spinoza, Gottfried Leibniz, David Hume, Baron d'Holbach (Paul Heinrich Dietrich), Pierre-Simon Laplace, Arthur Schopenhauer, William James, Friedrich Nietzsche, Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Ralph Waldo Emerson and, more recently, John Searle, Ted Honderich, and Daniel Dennett.

Also

Types of determinism

Genetic determinism
Biological determinism
Social determinism
Cultural determinism
Economic determinism
Geographic determinism
Historical determinism
Technological determinism
Environmental determinism
Theological determinism

[edhopper]

119. So you can't simply explain what you mean?

You keep asking questions but provide no answers when asked.

And then wonder why people turn away.

Perhaps your approach is mistaken.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

120. If you do not know this concept

I am not going to waste any more time with you

wow just wow

[edhopper]

121. I am aware of the concept

I asked what YOU mean by it.

I have seen people use determinism for everything from cause and effect to everything that has happened is the the only thing that could have happened.
Some even claim it means there is no free will.
What do YOU mean by it?

Why do you think a deterministic universe leads to the possibility of God?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

122. tired hungry - bad answer - I am struggling with it now

old easy answer - this points the way

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

You know these quotes -God does not play dice - Not only does he play dice he throws them where we we can not see them.

Then - look at Penrose - The Emperor's New Mind.

Just a few of many things that for me point to an order and something outside that order.

My question is will new incites explain the mysteries, the probabilistic aspects in quantum theory, the concepts of emergent properties of complex systems, wave / particle...

Not sure if we will be able to make these ideas "understandable" but they may still be determinable issues. Just not by way of our cognition.

If - if -if - we are in such a system - the laws dictate everything - all powerful laws - the laws are the cause - the laws unmovable - all powerful - everywhere - for all of their time - ..... sounds like a god to me

Where I am now is in a place that wonders about these seemingly non deterministic aspects. What to do with them. What do it mean?

[edhopper]

123. Sounds like you have things to think about

Have a good night.

[LostOne4Ever]

125. Well there is your issue

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You have a mistaken view of atheism.[/font]

Mostly I look at atheist as people who think that they have an understanding of reality sufficient to make bold claims.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Lets take gods out of the equation. Lets say we are talking about mermaids. Just because someone doesn't believe in a mermaid exists, does that mean they are making bold claims?

Of course not.

The same can be taken about any claim. Just because a person does not hold the position that an invisible teapot is circling the earth to be true, does not mean that they are making bold claims. In fact, it does not necessarily mean that they are making any claims at all.

The same is true of atheists. Whether one is talking about implicit or explicit atheists, neither is making a bold claim, and implicit atheists are not making any claims at all.

So just let go of that image and feel free to embrace the word.[/font]

I think it possible that our brains have not evolved in a way that will make it possible to "see reality"
(light quanta - wave particle ) - The question of the existence of god does not make sense to me because their are no definitions.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]What you are describing here has a name. It is called igtheism, a sub-division of atheism that holds the word "god" is so poorly defined that it is meaningless.

That might be something worth looking into.

Well, nice discussing things with you.

Peace [/font]

[SoLeftIAmRight]

127. many thanks

nt

[EvolveOrConvolve]

91. Of course this is a place for rational discourse

When were you planning on starting?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

103. Are you willing to walk me through the process?

Or are you just here to vent?

[AtheistCrusader]

128. Sounds like a task for you.

"I want to understand what makes me feel uncomfortable with the term atheist."

Why don't you tell us why you are uncomfortable with the term 'atheist'?

[mr blur]

130. Holy Babble, Batman!

[bvf]

131. POW! THWACK! OOF! N/T!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

133. I'm locking this while the hosts discuss things

We're not sure yet if this person is a disruptor. Stay tuned, ya'll.