I'm trying Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd.

[cleanhippie]

But nothing short of accepting everything the religionists say will ever be good enough. Ever. And that makes me sad.

A genuine plea to come together by acknowledging where we have common ground while also recognizing the inherent problems that separate us is met with "fine, let's use the term anti-theist" as the alternative to the legitimate concern of applying an overreaching definition of "atheist" or non-believer.

Nothing will ever change because they don't want it to change. That is the only possible answer. They just won't admit it, to us OR to themselves.

[kdmorris]

1. This seems to happen a lot when people are entrenched

They determine the side they are on and then defend that position/team to the death. I get the feeling sometimes that they feel like if they give a little then they will be declared wrong on everything. Or something like that anyway.

It took me telling my older sister to just stop talking to me if she couldn't stop trying to convert me for her to wake up and realize that she was really in danger of losing me as her sister if she couldn't meet me in the middle.

We did meet in the middle, for which I am glad. I am still an atheist, she is still religious, but that's OK. She doesn't have to give up her belief just to be my sister. She just had to stop forcing it down my throat.

[dimbear]

2. We're living through a part of time when there are changes and upheavals going on.

The old beliefs are being abandoned and new ways loom. That means friction, fights, hubbub, abuse. We're early adopters.

Remember the story of Jackie Robinson. He took a bunch of crap, he brought a lot of progress. It's hard today to find anyone who will admit that they booed him at first. They did, later they cheered.

Only a few decades later came BHO.

This is a slower struggle, but in some ways even more important.

[cleanhippie]

3. Great point, although I see it as the same struggle.

or at least just another segment of the ongoing struggle to treat everyone equally.

Currently, I see what is going on in this country regarding Christianity, to be the same as that which is going on with white people: understanding that a privilege does in fact exist, how to recognize it, and how to deal with it. In many ways, both white privilege and christian privilege are one and the same. As a middle-aged white guy, I am only now really beginning to grasp the extent to which white privilege is prevalent, and liken it to the same astonishment and reluctance to accept it when it comes to the progressive Christians when they recognize just how prevalent and oppressive the christian privilege in this country really is.

In fact, I see it right here on DU. It's the elephant in the room that everyone it trying to ignore.

[dimbear]

4. For sure.

It's so hard for believers to see the problem looking out from inside. I like to think that we must be making people think a little bit, tho, what with sticking up for ourselves.

Naturally it means we catch flak. We're prepared to take it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

5. I think the sticking up for ourselves is what upsets so many

Believers are often used to NOT having their beliefs questioned, and many have a cozy cocoon of privilege in which they've wrapped their belief, safe from rational inquiry. Intruding on that cocoon can be (understandably) upsetting. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop sticking up for myself or other atheists.

[Evoman]

9. Or male priviledge, for that matter.

Look at the wars on DU over that....makes our little religious spats look tiny in comparison.

[eqfan592]

11. I have to admit that I've been fairly shocked at how entrenched the Christian privilege is...

...even here on DU. People that would normally be willing to try and place themselves in the shoes of another minority to see how things look and feel from their perspective seem totally unwilling to do the same thing when it comes to atheists and agnostics. Instead of even a basic attempt at understanding, we get ridicule (and even outright contempt), and we're told that there is simply no way we should find something offensive, or that we have a "warped sense of persecution," with the obvious undertone being that we should just sit down and shut up. Can you imagine something like that being said about any other minority?

The last month or so has really opened my eyes to some ugliness in the progressive movement.

[Evoman]

14. They dislike individual atheist, and they expand that dislike to the whole group

People hate admitting priviledge, but when you add personal dislike to it, you get people who will not only dismiss their priviledge, but rub it in your face.

It's easy to hate us. Unlike other minorities, we really get under their skin because we "attack" them where they are not used to being attacked. And when they hate us, they won't very well care that they have advantages. It's not cool to hate black people or Jews or now, gay people. It's uncool to hate women, though denying they have disadvantages probably means you secretly do. But atheists? Well, that one atheist on DU pissed me off, so it's okay to hate them...society doesn't yet have a problem wih that.

[awoke_in_2003]

7. I am 44...

and the old beliefs, such as religion, have seemed (to me) to be getting a stronger stranglehold on our country every year. The religious right is not going to go away without a big, big fight.

[eqfan592]

10. They do seem to be getting a "stronger stranglehold," as you say.

But I think it's more of a desperation move at this point, one that will eventually backfire. As new generations continue to get progressively less and less religious, the extremes that the religious right has gone to and continues to try and go to will end up pushing younger people further and further away from them, and they're attempt at a stranglehold will end up being their undoing.

At least, that's how I think (and hope) it will work out. We just have to keep on point out the insanity every time it pops up.

[awoke_in_2003]

13. I hope you are right...

I can see where you are coming from about backlash.

[dimbear]

15. I'm not going to hold your youth against you at all.

Most encouraging sign for me: the letters in the Salt Lake Tribune religion section. They are just tearing Mormons up. Nothiing like that would have ever happened in Salt Lake when I was growing up there 50 years ago.

The times are changing for the better. The religious right is the last dying gasp. At least I hope so. Compared to the US, for instance, northern Europe is a humanist paradise. And we always eventually copy them, don't we?

[awoke_in_2003]

16. "And we always eventually copy them, don't we?"...

it would be nice. To be honest, half of my life was spent in Ohio, in or around Cleveland. I moved to Texas is 1992. Maybe it is the area, but sometimes it seems impossible to avoid religion.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. I've found that being nice doesn't work

If you're nice, they assume that you'll accept whatever nutty shit they believe without question.

[Evoman]

8. You suprised they are full of shit?

I'm not even going to pretend to play that fucking game. You play nice, you end up with a knife in your back.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. I'm thinking that an OP on the Eucharist is in order.

To believe in that nonsense requires acceptance of a whole bale of Aristotelian idiocy regarding the physical nature of reality.

Kumbaya isn't working.

[Taverner]

17. The only common ground I have with fundies is what we'll both be buried under nt