Do you agree, or disagree, with this statement?

[Warren DeMontague]

"Atheist men, who maintain the false belief in their superiority, do more harm to women then men, who are restricted by religious morals."

I strongly disagree with this statement, (duh) as an Atheist man, although I would think that it's an asinine generalization to try to make no matter what I personally believed.

The trope about Atheists being less moral loves to pop its creepy head up all over the place, like some fucked up mushroom.

I think it's appalling that there are places on this website where this sort of anti-Atheist bigotry is allowed.

[idwiyo]

1. How can one be an Atheist and maintain false sense of superiority?

I'll bet £10 this statement was written by a religious person with a huge feeling of inferiority.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. I think there's a lot of stealth religious fundamentalism behind a lot of agendas.

I think the sentence in the OP is deeply offensive, not to mention idiotic.

[LeftishBrit]

5. Anyone CAN have a false sense of superiority-

however it is not a product of atheism. Atheism just means not believing in a god; it doesn't mean believing you're superior.

Sigh.

As regards sexism: anyone can be sexist, but women's rights have been most often been squashed by believers in ultra-traditionalism - which is often, though not always, associated with conservative forms of religion - from Sharia law to the implication by Pat Robertson that feminists helped to bring 9-11 on the USA by provoking God.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I would agree with everything there.

I also think open-mindedness, resistance to dogma, questioning assumptions (particularly one's own) as well as accepting that other people are going to choose to live their lives in ways one may, personally, not approve of- all those things lead to an understanding, tolerant, equality-based approach to others.

oh, yeah, and a SENSE OF HUMOR. Can't forget that one, it's crucial.

[idwiyo]

49. When it comes to sexism it's always by-product of religion.

Last edited Thu Aug 9, 2012, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Where else would it come from?

Racism, homophobia, sexism, all together or in part are the very essence of every religion:
I am better then you because I belong to group x, and not all members of group x were created equal.

[redqueen]

50. Primate groups are usually patriarchal.

Males are usually bigger and stronger. Religion is just used as one method of reinforcing this structure.

[2ndAmForComputers]

23. This. If the author is an Atheist, I'm Usain Bolt.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Yah

I agree.

[dimbear]

2. Anyone who knows a little history knows that is not true. Look at the chief opponents of women's

suffrage: male religious leaders. Look at the origins of the patriarchal system: male religious leaders. Look at the history of Mormonism.

Actually, just look up any facts.

[malthaussen]

4. "Asinine" is not a bad word. "Ridiculous" would do, too.

Stipulating that atheists create their own ethical systems as the touchstone of their lives, it is quite possible that some atheists "do more harm to women" than those "restricted" (ha!) "by religious morals." But given the nature of those "restrictive" morals, I think it more reasonable to expect that the religious types would be apt to do the greater "harm to women," whatever, indeed, that means.

As for the bigotry, it doesn't bother me: having constructed my own moral code, what do I care what those idiots think?

But then, I have a "false belief" in my "superiority," eh?

-- Mal

[Warren DeMontague]

7. It's the old saw about how Religious beliefs keep all that nasty stuff 'in check'

Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2012, 04:37 AM - Edit history (1)

Like I said, it's been clear to me for some time that some folks seem to be trying to push 'stealth' religious right stuff through under various guises; this is a glaringly egregious example.

[malthaussen]

12. I'll have to go with response #9...

... I haven't run across anythng like that on DU. Obviously, it boggles the mind that anyone could be a real Democrat or Progressive and spout that... stuff, so I'd assume it was the product of another troll and roll on.

Religious beliefs have, historically, kept some nasty stuff in check -- which makes one shudder to think of what the world was like before religious beliefs -- but moral philosophy passed religion quite a few centuries ago. Alas, moral philosophers do not have collection plates.

-- Mal

[Warpy]

6. It's laughable!

I'd expect to find this sort of idiocy in protected religious groups here. That's why I never go there.

Religious men are worse to women the more pious they are.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Protected Group, Yes.

But not one of the stated "religious" ones.

[Curmudgeoness]

8. Oh, give me a break!

ANY man who maintains belief in their superiority does harm to women....and I don't see why anyone would link "atheist men" with "false belief in their superiority" unless they are just being nasty.

Most atheists who I know are much more accepting of women as equals than the religious men. And if you look at the facts, that makes sense. They are told by their God that they are superior, so how can they argue with that.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

9. Holy shit, was that actually posted here at DU?

If so, it's sickening.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Yes.

[Rob H.]

11. I think that statement, not to put too fine a point on it, is 100% horseshit

Exhibit A that flies in the face of the idea that atheist men do more harm to women than religious men: The Southern Baptist Convention. Women are to be subservient to men, can't be pastors, and are not to teach or hold positions of authority over men. Southern Baptist men's "religious morals" don't prevent them from treating women as their inferiors, and the SBC endorses that kind of behavior.

Edited to add: There was also a study done within the last few years that showed that divorce rates were highest among religious people in red states. The group with lowest rates of divorce? ATHEISTS!

[mr blur]

13. Insulting, ignorant bullshit.

Belongs on Free Republic, maybe, but not here.

[rexcat]

15. Nice to see such bigotry in DU...

[AlbertCat]

16. do more harm to women then men,

I disagree

I think they do more harm to MEN 1st..... then women. But they harm both, that's for sure.... or do they?

Who are these atheist men who still think they are superior? And do they think they are superior to women, or just people who are foolish enough to follow stone age "morals"?

[RebelOne]

17. Don't agree, but then, I don't know too many atheist men. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

21. You don't?

Maybe you're not hanging in the right crowds.

[redqueen]

18. Agree.

One has to read carefully and not succumb to the kneejerking defensiveness that is so common, everywhere.

The writer is referring to men who think they are superior.

And whoever said 'I haven't seen it on DU', well DU isn't the world. Anyone who is aware of the shitstorm caused by Rebecca Watson's decision to confront the issue of sexism and misogyny at atheist conferences knows there are plenty of atheist men who consider themselves to be superior to women. They probably don't think so, but their actions and words betray them.

One caveat is the word "more"... defining how that damage is qualified, quantified, and measured means a lot.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Yeah, sort of like the kneejerking defensiveness to the work of Judith "Gays caused the Holocaust"

Reisman, who has been similarly quoted, promoted, and lauded by certain members of this site.

Hmmm. Maybe we should just work on not being so defensive.

[redqueen]

25. This is the Atheists & Agnostics Group

I get that we disagree about this but let's try to stay on topic.

Unless the topic is now the association fallacy. Because yes, I do agree with some views which are also held by people who have other views with which I don't agree.

The world is a complicated place.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. And sometimes complicated things are easier to understand if one is willing to spot

the patterns that are readily apparent.

Like, say, if there is a pattern of promotion of religious right sources and memes.

Which, um, certainly IS on topic.

[redqueen]

29. Religious right memes?

Association fallacy.

And I am really not interested in engaging with you on the topic of your obsession.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. "Atheists are less moral because they dont have religion to fix their souls"

Is a religious right meme.

When religious right memes, religious right groups, religious right arguments are continually produced and promoted, what conclusions would you expect a fair minded person to draw?

[redqueen]

34. You seriously think that's what she's saying?

I don't interpret it that way.

I infer she's saying that SEXIST men who aren't religious have no check on that sexism, whereas religious ones have the obviously insufficient but still existent restriction. Their sexism is codified, atheists' is freelance.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Yes.

I do.

And i wonder why it doesn't trouble you when she promotes sources like Reisman, Hilton, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. What about this statement?

at least in religion they are told "reducing women to be used as bodies as is done in domination, pornography, prostitution and promiscuity" is not ok.

Do you agree with that statement? That religious "morality" on the topic of sex is inherently superior?

Oh, link? Okay, here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/12559060#post3

[redqueen]

35. Didn't I just say I wasn't interested in this game? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Then why respond?

You want to discuss this in a DeMontague-free zone, You know where you can go!

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Oh, right. Someone hit on someone else in an elevator 5 years ago.

And some people are still mad about it.

I forgot.

[redqueen]

36. No, that is (obviously) not my point.

And your response shows quite well why I won't engage you further on this topic.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Yep.

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/07/08/watson_dawkins.html

[redqueen]

19. Here is the entire piece, for anyone who is interested.

http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/feministatheists/forum/topics/comparing-the-harm-of-false-beliefs

Not so well written, but you can get an idea of the context from the link.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Why don't you give them the link to the HoF thread, while you're at it?

So folks can see not just the source material, but the way the source material was presented here on DU.

Anyway, merely claiming that someone is a member of a group does not entitle them to a free pass on bigoted or otherwise ignorant statements (i.e. "the person who wrote this claims to be an Atheist, so there&quot any more than anyone else. The saw that somehow Atheists are somehow inherently less moral (oh, well, maybe just the Atheists who have y chromosomes) than religious people is one of the most noxious old turds in the canon.

[2ndAmForComputers]

24. "I am a lifelong Democrat but"

Oldest lame trick in the dishonest debate handbook.

[redqueen]

26. I'm sure you realize that you are free to add whatever context you see fit.

As you could have in the OP.

Anyway, you seem to be attempting to have a discussion with someone else in another group by proxy, so I'm gonna bow out of this now.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I could have, but actually I was trying to get a read on the material without specifically

calling anyone out. I wanted to get a sense for how it sounded at face value.

It seems my impressions of it weren't too off base.

[PassingFair]

42. Why are you bringing this shit here?

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Because it's relevant to Atheists.

That's why.

I'm glad you agree it's "shit", though. So take it up with the people who are promoting it.

[PassingFair]

45. It's your hatred of RedQueen I'm talking about.

Keep it in Meta, please.

As far as I know, no one here has a problem with her except you.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Huh? I haven't made anything about her. And yet you, here, are trying to make it about ME.

Maybe you should be the one keeping it in meta.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Since i have been accused of not providing context, here is a link

To the other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12559060

My opinion is, its not about "Atheist men who think they're superior to women", it's the noxious assertion that there is some inherently soul-bettering property inherent to religious belief, that Atheist men lack.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. No, I think it's claiming that religion puts a limit on how bad misogyny can get

I think that claim is wrong - first, it's treating 'Christian' and 'religious' as the same thing, when clearly they're not - and the most extreme religions enforce the worst sexism and discrimination that any culture has seen (eg the Taliban). Secondly, there's plenty of misogyny and discrimination in many Christian sects (eg Catholicism). But I don't think it's talking about "some inherently soul-bettering property"; I think it's saying that the principles by which Christians are meant to live ought to put bounds on the harm that a sexist man could do to a woman. I would say that, in practice, these bounds hardly ever stop a sexist, however Christian he thinks he is.

But it is "about atheist men who think they're superior to women"; the closing sentence is "When a man frees himself from false beliefs, he has to get rid also of the false belief in male superiority." It is not about all atheist men.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. It's got a whole host of assumptions that are, as they say, "problematic"

and the implication that religion acts as a 'civilizing' or 'moderating' influence on men who 'think they're superior' is only the start, along with the completely silly yet accepted-at-face-value notion that men who, for instance, like to have sex or like to look at naked women, somehow "think they're superior to women" because they like those things.

It's standard issue religious fundamentalist sexual puritanism, rebranded and repackaged. Rinse, repeat.

[LiberalAndProud]

41. "restricted by their religious morals"

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

Yea, those religious morals don't harm women. Not even a little. I will refrain from profanity, but really really this is really stupid stuff.