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[Tuesday Afternoon]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Tuesday Afternoon) on Mon Jan 23, 2012, 12:09 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[GliderGuider]

1. "Dharma decline" might be a question of one's perspective.

Is it possible that it merely looks like a decline to those who are attached to it in its original form?

All is impermanent, why should any particular understanding of the Dharma be exempt from that iron law of nature?

It feels to me as though the Dharma is undergoing a great expansion right now, as humanity reaches out with fumbling hands to try and find a path past the coming shift of civilization. From this point of view, the Dharma is being incorporated into a vast efflorescence of wisdom teachings. Even though it occupies a larger place in Western consciousness, it may be forming an ever smaller part of the global consciousness as our horizons expand without cease.

Or I might be mistaken.

[grantcart]

2. Well that would have started in 1466

Well according to the Thai Buddhist calendar. This year we are celebrating 2555 BE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_calendar

[YankeyMCC]

3. My first reaction

was that this didn't sound like it had any basis in any of the teachings I've heard or read.

But thank you GliderGuider for making that great point about impermanence. Even the Dharma and the Tathagata can become idea traps.

Personally, regardless of what the story in the OP says, I think this is a pretty interesting time for Buddhism as it continues to take root in the west. Of course it is just one of many interesting times I suppose. I consider myself fortunate to be part of this next incarnation or this developing incarnation of Buddhism.

[The Straight Story]

4. This reminds me of something relating to biblical prophecy (a parallel of sorts)

In the 'latter' days there will be a falling away of the church. It is sometimes felt that the reason is people rely more on humankind/science than the spiritual and lose a connection.

The word(s) stay the same but people are not seeing the meaning of the words and how spiritual choices affect the world around them.

In my early readings of Tibetan Buddhism I often marveled at how someone could live with such peace and happiness with so little - and no ambition (ie, climbing a corporate ladder, etc). In our world we are bombarded daily being told what we don't have, what we need, and ways to get those things we now believe we cannot live without.

Contrasting this to some recent readings (A book on Tibetan Folklore and books on myth/folklore in the early Americas) I found a theme that intrigued me: Across continents there was a similar tale that at some point humans and animals could communicate/talk to one another. Several cultures tell of a time when 'something' happened (akin to a tower of babel moment) when this ability ceased and a new age began.

I guess in some ways I see this occurring now on a more spiritual level in that we are seeing less of a communication and inability to understand (no belief in anything spiritual as but one example). The shift is that man is all alone and superior to all else and has turned more outward than inward. We see less reason to be in touch with our surroundings (from polluting w/cars, coal, etc) and instead of harmony nature is purely a resource.

[grantcart]

5. A note about biblical prophecies

There are no passages of prophesy in the Bible that are intended by the writers for distant future times.

The narrative parts of the old Testament and the New Testament were written during times of extreme disillusionment. Other parts llike the Psalms were written during good times but the narrative books and Epistles (Genesis in the old, Gospels in the new) were written during periods of government oppression (Babylonian Captivity in the old and Roman persecution in the new),

When things were going well there was no need to write a narrative, go to the temple (old) or participate in the home Mass (new). However when things didn't make sense and didn't seem to be going according to script then there was a need to remythologize their understanding of the history according to current realities.

The prophets of the Old Testament and the works of Jesus, technically the last prophet of the Jews were aimed at the current situation and predictions were tied to what was going to happen in the immediate future.

When persecutions became overwhelmingly brutal then the prophetic sources would become apocalyptic (Daniel in the old, and Revelations in the new). They were always, however, aimed at the current situation and their symbolic references were aimed at contemporary figures. They highly symbolic form was aimed at surviving the understanding of the contemporary censors who might not be able to understand that the references were aimed at the local principalities. The end of the world atmospherics were intended to bring strength to those that were weakening in the face of death.

So the idea that there are future prophecies in the bible is the most glaring example of Biblical ignorance by Christians of their own book. This is not a new problem. For these reasons the Book of Revelations barely survived the vote to be added to the canonized scripture.

Now in this same sense I would expect that prophetic Buddhist writing would also have a relevence to the current reality, but I could be wrong, I haven't had any training in this area. In any case any use of numbers by ancient writers would probably have a symbolic and not a linear meaning.

[The Straight Story]

6. I understand that ideal, but I tend be more of a duality style person (w/birth analogy)

In other words: Things were used to describe a certain current (or shortly to occur) situation but also was applicable in a future time (as history repeats itself); which ties into a pregnancy where contractions early on are like those later but more intense and closer together.

One can predict today (without aid of angels/gods/etc) the future in some generic terms based on our past (think of the novel 1984 for example).

Take the rebirth of Israel in the OT/NT. In the 1800's it was debated hotly that it was meant only as a spiritual rebirth and that Israel as a nation would not rise again (the debate center around the end times and that being a condition given in prophecy).

Some look at the boneyard/raising in Ezekiel as fitting that the nation rose from WW2 after the death of 6 million Jews.

I try to keep an open mind.

[ellisonz]

7. How should it be possible to know?

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. This is very intriguing and thank you for the link

I will echo what TSS said above and add that it seems a common theme in that Baha'i, Islam and Judaism are also all projecting a future decline that will be resolved by a future spiritual leader (successor to Bab, Mahdi, Messiah, etc...).

I didn't realize that there was a somewhat similar school of thought within Buddhism.

How mainstream is this?