Possibly a very stupid question....

[truebrit71]

...of today's various branches of Buddhism which is the "truest"..i.e. the one that is closest to the teachings and observations of The Buddha, and not so much about the ceremony and deification of him per se...

I've been doing some research, I'm a confirmed atheist after wavering for many years, and I like the idea of a 'religion' that doesn't believe in mythical cloud beings, but rather about deeper introspection as a way to grow and learn...but there appear to be branches of Buddhism that have gone down a different path...and to the lay person like myself it gets very cloudy..

Any help much appreciated...

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Apologies if this seems to be interference this group, but we have...

several Buddhists attending our Unitarian Universalist church where there is no requirement for belief in any sort of supreme being. We value their input to our spiritual growth and they seem quite comfortable with us.

[TM99]

2. This is a gross oversimplification

however Mahayana traditions have added much to the Buddha's original teachings that were not specifically there. It does not mean that their interpretations or all of their 'additions' are wrong per se.

Theravada traditions are those that hold most closely to the Buddha's original teachings. You will find these in the original Pali Canon. I recommend Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations.

Without some background, they can be pretty heavy reading. So as you are an atheist, I highly recommend you start with Stephen Bachelor's Buddhism without Belief & Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist.

Most works here in the US on Insight Meditation and Mindfulness will also be devoid of the later metaphysics and added supernaturalism. Though I must stress that even Mahayana traditions see those as human psychological projections and the strong need for many to explore the more metaphysical aspects of life. They are NOT necessary to 'enlightenment'.

I would also recommend Chogyam Trungpa's books especially Cutting through Spiritual Materialism which dispels many westerners' ideas of Buddhism and guru's in particular. Finally if you have an interest in Buddhist psychology, explore the writings of Nyigma Institute out of CA. Tarthan Tulku's writings are exceptional especially the psychology and philosophy ones.

[SoapBox]

3. ...your post was very interesting.

I hope the OP saw it.

Thanks for posting this.

[TM99]

4. Thanks

and you are welcome.

I hope it is somewhat helpful.

[truebrit71]

5. Thank you. I have picked up a copy of the Pali Cannon as suggested.

I have Stephen Bachelor's books as well.

[TM99]

6. You are welcome.

Enjoy and feel free to chat about stuff here. I would be interested in what you think.

[bananas]

7. Regarding Stephen Batchelor's books

Please read the full review linked in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1249854

http://www.mandalamagazine.org/archives/mandala-issues-for-2010/october/distorted-visions-of-buddhism-agnostic-and-atheist/

Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist

By B. Alan Wallace

<snip>

An illegitimate option is to reinvent the Buddha and his teachings based on one’s own prejudices. This, unfortunately, is the route followed by Stephen Batchelor and other like-minded people who are intent on reshaping the Buddha in their own images.

<snip>

In your OP, you asked

which is the "truest"..i.e. the one that is closest to the teachings and observations of The Buddha

[TM99]

9. I must gently rebutt your post.

You have only presented one side of this 'argument'.

Here is the other from Batchelor himself:

http://mandala.fpmt.org/archives/mandala-issues-for-2011/january/an-open-letter-to-b-alan-wallace/

And here is a discussion that takes it just one step deeper:

http://mandala.fpmt.org/archives/mandala-issues-for-2011/april/an-old-story-of-faith-and-doubt-reminiscences-of-alan-wallace-and-stephen-batchelor/

“Do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with liking for a view after pondering over it or with someone else’s ability or with the thought, ‘This monk is our teacher.’ When you know in yourselves: “These things are wholesome, blameless, commended by the wise, and being adopted and put into effect they lead to welfare and happiness,” then you should practice and abide in them.” – Siddhartha Gotama, the Buddha; from the Kalama Sutra (trans. Nanamoli Thera)

So let me ask you this question. If someone is approaching the Dharma for the first time and expresses that they are an 'atheist', is it more loving to guide them to a writer who thinks as they do for their first taste of these teachings or to steer them towards the most metaphysical tantric traditions out there?

[vlyons]

8. A better quesyion is: what is the best type of Buddhism for you?

The answer to that question can be found in knowing what is your spiritual aspiration? There are three main types, or vehicles, of Buddhism based on a person's spiritual aspiration. Each vehicle will get you to liberation from suffering, but in different ways and at different speeds.

Theravada Buddhism is the "individual vehicle." People practicing this form are mainly concerned with their own individual and personal liberation. The practices are mainly about the ethics of the 8-fold path. Do you aspire enlightenment only for yourself?

Mahayana Buddhism is the "universal vehicle." It emphasizes the practice of compassion towards all sentient beings and helping them to achieve liberation. Do you aspire enlightenment everyone?

Vajayana Buddhism is the "secret mantra" vehicle. It also emphasizes compassion and wisdom, and is said to be the "fast path" to enlightenment.

[TM99]

10. Not really a fair assessment of the three existing schools today.

Vajrayana is nothing more than Mahayana Buddhism with some archetypal psychology added to the mix - most of which the lay practitioner will rarely fully practice or realize.

Mahayana and Theravada schools differ in approach but not in outcome.

The Mayahana Buddhist says that in order to achieve enlightenment for oneself, one must love others. By practicing Bodhicitta (open heart) one's heart is then opened.

The Theravada Buddhist says that in order to love others, one must have achieved enlightenment first for oneself. By becoming as the Buddha became, then and only then is the heart opened so that it is fully open towards other.

Both aspire towards enlightenment for oneself and for everyone. They simply approach it from different sides of the same coin. One, then, does not have to make the false choice that you are presenting here. One can simply find the school and approach that works best and then ultimately achieve the same two goals - both/and, not either/or.

[Expat in Korea]

11. I once had the same question as the OP.

I spent years researching (informally) this topic and lived in Thailand for a year as a novice monk. The Pali Canon has the earliest known teachings of the Buddha. I respect Nagarjuna and the Mahayana development, but I could never accept the Mahayana sutras as authentic. They were written centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana (physical death) and there is a very clear shift in emphasis towards faith, the mystical and esoteric. The teachings in the Pali Canon are explicitly exoteric, and that seems to have been the Buddha's intent, seeing as how he said that he held back no secret teachings "in the closed fist of the teacher." That said, I'm all for anyone following whatever brings peace to your life.

[isaantom]

12. perhaps not truer, but easier to follow

Theravadan Buddhism, especially the forest tradition is clear, concise and to the point.
google
forest dhamma
forest sangha
plenty of PDFs to read
also access to insight website

youtube
jayasaro, sumedho

feel free to contact me for more info

[truebrit71]

13. Okay, let me amend the question somewhat...

...which is the "most" atheistic...I am looking at Shin Buddhism, which appears to be "easier" and less wrapped up in ceremony and the like...

Thoughts?

[mmonk]

14. I suggest Zen for you.

[liberal_at_heart]

16. I agree. Zen would probably be a good fit for this person.

[1handclapn]

17. why would you recomend Zen.? i certainly wouldn't to a beginner

I don't really see Zen as a Buddhist practice Dharma wise. I think that after 3-4 years of devoted Theravada practice someone would be in a developmental position understand and to deal with Zen practices. Zen is rigid practice and personally the most destructive Toxic personalities I have ever met were long time Zen practitioners. I first ran into Zen before I knew anything about Buddhism, I was so devastated by them I quickly decided Buddhism was a bunch of crap populated by psychopaths. what I had run into were Dharma Bums. I later found different groups, but they still reeked of their militaristic past, they hit you with sticks if you don't do it right..

20 years after my first run in with Zen I met a Tibetan monk, it was like coming home after several lifetimes of being lost., he had been the chant master of the Dalia Lama's monastery, and an attendant to the Dalia lama. I attended three 3 hour meetings a week for 6 years, never missed a meeting, 2 were on meditation. his first advice was to start at the beginning. to learn Theravada first. start with the 4 Noble Truths. they are the foundation of Buddhism.. they ARE Buddhism. they are a simple logical Posit. everything else in Buddhism is an effort to understand them.

start here, they are a Theravada group and have a good beginners program and are a solid traditional reliable resource, they have meditation training video, on Vapassina and later Shamata.. check out their Buddhanet Audio pages for really good teachings.
www.buddhanet.net

I love this video..

[mmonk]

19. Interesting take. My reasoning centured

Last edited Fri Dec 26, 2014, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)

on de-emphasis on scriptures and sutras. I was trying to match background of the poster.

[vlyons]

15. Refuge vows

If you are interested in Buddhism, the place to start is with the 4 Noble Truths. This teaching is the entrance doorway to understanding the dharma. You don't have to believe in a god to practice any aspect of Buddhism. If you decide to practice Buddhism formally, then the 3 refuge vows of taking refuge in the Buddha, refuge in the dharma (the teachings), and refuge in the sangha (the community of practicing Buddhists) is a way to formally make that commitment for yourself. The third aspect of approaching Buddhism is to find an authentic teacher(s). There are many great authentic teachers in all the branches of Buddhism. The ones who open your heart and open your mind are the ones who are right for you. And then the last thing I would add is the practice of loving kindness. Try to remember, as best you can, to approach life from the viewpoint of loving kindness. And when you forget, look at your less-than-loving thoughts and deeds honestly, and rejoice in the wisdom you have gained from your mistakes. Then re-remenber that it is your intention to practice loving kindness.

[1handclapn]

18. Buddhism is not a Religion,

it is most akin to a psychology. it is a simple logical posit.. called the 4 Noble Truths
it is simply a method of training the mind to reside in the present moment... using meditation.

I go into greater detail in a previous post