What happened to Howard Dean?

[SHRED]

He was on Chris Hayes show tonight commenting on Hillary and Chelsea going after Bernie.
He brushed it off calling Bernie impractical for calling for universal healthcare.

And I thought he was a Progressive?
My bad.

[libodem]

1. That's a shame

To see him consorting with the opposition.

[merrily]

54. It's not his opposition. He is a centrist. (See Reply 52.) He makes money and stays relevant

(somewhat, anyway) by doing what he's doing. No mystery.

[John Poet]

139. He's now representing the health insurance corporate wing

of the Democratic Party...

[merrily]

145. He's really sold out the one and only issue on which he was liberal.

[HassleCat]

2. He's a Democratic Party loyalist first.

The progressive stuff is in second place. This is true of most Democrats. Even though the party has not served Howard Dean all that well, he was chair for a while, and he has many of the usual connections. Hubert Humphrey would be a historical example.

[bvf]

7. Never thought I'd get a chance to post this...

http://m.

[dflprincess]

27. I love that tune

sad, but true.

Poor Hubert if only he had stayed in the Senate he might have been president.

[merrily]

56. I wonder what he really thought of the Vietnam War before it did him in?

[dflprincess]

121. Quite a few years ago I heard his son, Skip (Hubert, III) say that his father had

opposed the war (or had doubts about it - something like that) for a long time, but his "loyalty" to Johnson kept him from going public.

This was on the radio and I nearly drove off the road while screaming "Where was his loyalty to the guys being killed there?" -- brought back all my old hostile feelings to Hubert from way back when.

[merrily]

122. I am not so sure about Humphrey's loyalty to LBJ, as opposed to Humphrey's loyalty to

Humphrey. I've read things like LBJ saying "I've got Humphrey's pecker in my pocket" and "Humphrey who?" It's hard to believe that Humphrey was loyal to someone treating him with such contempt. However, LBJ also had Humphrey's political future in his pocket. Also, it's very easy and convenient to be against a war after you are out of office. But, if he indeed did keep quiet about a war he opposed solely out of loyalty to LBJ, it was not so much loyalty as a sickness.

I read things on DU around war and loyalty to Party/candidates that seem incredibly sick to me.

[dflprincess]

143. Speaking of Hubert and loyalty to a candidate

After losing the race in 1968 he came back to Minnesota and in 1970 ran for the Senate using the slogan "Humphrey - You know he cares". And, to give him his due, he did have a record on Civil Rights and other social justice issues that was something to be proud of.

(He also had great constituent service. Just as an example and because I love the story. My friend's mom was a naturalized citizen and one day she gets a phone call that her dad back in England is not doing well and if she wanted to see him she needed to get back to London fast. Her passport was expired and she was told 8-10 weeks to get a new one (this was in early 60s) so the neighbor tells her to call Humphrey's office and explain the situation. His office sends an aide out that very day to pick up the expired passport; the next day the aide is back with a new one and a handwritten note from Hubert telling her he hopes this has made a difficult time a bit easier.)

Anyway, back to where I was going about loyalty to candidates.

In 1976 HHH was up for reelection, it was no secret he had bladder cancer and anyone with any smarts knew he wasn't going to survive another term. So this time his campaign slogan was "Humphrey - show him you care". --- At the time and to this day I can't imagine another politician who could get by with that as a slogan. And he won with just over 67% of the vote.

[merrily]

144. Great stories, DFL. Thank you!

[Buzz cook]

126. Like many people he was lied to

By the military who wanted a nice little war and by the left over Kennedy administration folks that early in the war thought they could best protect JFKs legacy by prosecuting the war to the fullest.

LBJ sent Humphrey to Vietnam on a fact finding mission, once there he was given a classic snow job on how great things were going and that victory was around the corner.
By the 68 Humphrey was wedded to that position in spite of new information and his own personal feelings. The same is true to a greater extent with LBJ.

[merrily]

130. You know that Humphrey did not have good info about the war how?

[Buzz cook]

137. Sorry I thought you would be aware of the history

Read "The Best and Brightest" by David Halberstam. That's probably the best written history about how we got into Vietnam and why we stayed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_and_the_Brightest

[merrily]

142. How we got into Vietnam and why we stayed is a different issue from

knowing for certain that Humphrey did not have any good info about Vietnam.

[Buzz cook]

146. Read the book nt

nt

[merrily]

147. I would not even believe Humphrey himself if he told me he knew only lies, let alone

someone else. Besides, my reading list is already long enough.

[Buzz cook]

150. Remain ignorant then.

You might want to reread my first post in this series.

[merrily]

155. Not ignorant, just not gullible.

[Buzz cook]

158. Refusing to educate yourself

Is the definition of willful ignorance, is it not?

Believing something without sufficient evidence is one of the definitions of gullibility.

Have a nice life.

[merrily]

159. I never refused to educate myself. I refused to be gullible.

Going ad hom is a pretty clear sign of nothing important to add.

Do you actually have anything of substance to say? We've gone around several times now on a couple of topics and most of the posts have been substance free. I find that boring, trivial and a waste of time. So, if you have anything of substance to say this is the time. Otherwise, I'll leave you to your thoughts, whatever they may be.

[Buzz cook]

160. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_and_the_Brightest

The Best and the Brightest (1972) is an account by journalist David Halberstam of the origins of the Vietnam War published by Random House. The focus of the book is on the erroneous foreign policy crafted by the academics and intellectuals who were in John F. Kennedy's administration, and the disastrous consequences of those policies in Vietnam. The title referred to Kennedy's "whiz kids"—leaders of industry and academia brought into the Kennedy administration—whom Halberstam characterized as arrogantly insisting on "brilliant policies that defied common sense" in Vietnam, often against the advice of career U.S. Department of State employees.

Halberstam's book offers a great deal of detail on how the decisions were made in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations that led to the war, focusing on a period from 1960 to 1965 but also covering earlier and later years up to the publication year of the book.

Many influential factors are examined in the book:

The Democratic party was still haunted by claims that it had 'lost China' to Communists, and it did not want to be said to have lost Vietnam also
The McCarthy era had rid the government of experts in Vietnam and surrounding Far-East countries
Early studies called for close to a million U.S. troops to completely defeat the Viet Cong, but it would be impossible to convince Congress or the U.S. public to deploy that many soldiers
Declarations of war and excessive shows of force, including bombing too close to China or too many U.S. troops, might have triggered the entry of Chinese ground forces into the war, as well as greater Soviet involvement, which might repair the growing Sino-Soviet rift.
The American military and generals were not prepared for protracted guerilla warfare.
Some war games showed that a gradual escalation by the United States could be evenly matched by North Vietnam: Every year, 200,000 North Vietnamese came of draft age and could be sent down the Ho Chi Minh Trail to replace any losses against the U.S.: the U.S. would be "fighting the birthrate."
Any show of force by the U.S. in the form of bombing or ground forces would signal the U.S. interest in defending South Vietnam and therefore cause the U.S. greater shame if they were to withdraw
President Johnson's belief that too much attention given to the war effort would jeopardize his Great Society domestic programs
The effects of strategic bombing: Most people wrongly believed that North Vietnam prized its industrial base so much it would not risk its destruction by U.S. air power and would negotiate peace after experiencing some limited bombing. Others saw that, even in World War II, strategic bombing united the victim population against the aggressor and did little to hinder industrial output.
The Domino Theory rationales are mentioned as simplistic.
After placing a few thousand Americans in harm's way, it became politically easier to send hundreds of thousands over with the promise that, with enough numbers, they could protect themselves and that to abandon Vietnam now would mean the earlier investment in money and blood would be thrown away.

The book shows that the gradual escalation initially allowed the Johnson Administration to avoid negative publicity and criticism from Congress and avoid a direct war against the Chinese, but it also lessened the likelihood of either victory or withdrawal.

Read the book

[merrily]

161. So, repeating what you posted umpteen posts ago is all you've got? I thought so.

The issue you raised originally was what Humphrey knew. Only Humphrey knew that or could know that. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

[SheilaT]

45. The most amazing thing is that Tom Lehrer is still alive.

Stopped performing over 40 years ago, but he's still around at age 87.

[senz]

110. One of the odd little sound bytes

that floats through my mind once or twice a year is Lyndon Johnson saying, "Ahve got Hubie's balls raht here in mah back pocket."

[merrily]

57. He's never been a progressive, except on health care. Please see Reply 52.

[Awknid]

3. I wonder the same thing

He has been very dedicated to Hilliary for quite a while now. Seems out of character for him. One wonders if she has some dirt on him or something?

[emulatorloo]

28. He's always been a middle of the road Democrat. It is what it is.

It doesn't make him a bad person.

[Dawson Leery]

4. He is not kissing the ass of the pony of the hour.

[Luminous Animal]

12. I'd like that pony that the rest of the western world is riding.

[stillwaiting]

23. But he is kissing certain asses. Oh yes he is. nt

[merrily]

64. He's kissing plenty of ass, all right, just not liberal ass or Sanders ass.

He prefers the asses he's kissing to the ass of the organization he himself founded and to his own brother's ass. What a prince!

[senz]

107. The only "ponies of the hour" in this scenario are Hill and Howard.

Senator Sanders has held elective office for 35 years successfully and well. That's 20 years before Hill's short stint and 6 years before Howard Dean got started.

[Cleita]

5. Absolutely Hillary's Toadie it seems.

And Chris did not point out to him that Medicare is a proven successful program not an untested "vision". He's just as guilty.

[senz]

109. Quite a few of those around

here and there.

[fredamae]

6. Maybe this is who he has been

all along......Sometimes "we" only see/hear what we want to see/hear, as well.
We, ourselves are more acutely aware of a lot of things.
The differences emerging are stark.
People - all across the country have slowly become more and more aware of the façade, imo
It took me a long time. I used to purely trust, respect and admire Dean as I did every Democrat..

[merrily]

66. It is who he has been all along. Please see Reply 52 and the post linked in it.

[MeNMyVolt]

8. He is a fucking progressive.

Man, do you people actually hear yourselves? Do you understand what country you live in?

DO YOU NOT GET, that on this planet, BS's "healthcare plan" is not going to happen? We're fighting to at least keep what we've gained.

[whatchamacallit]

10. It's happening all over this planet

We're the only western democracy that settles for this shit. DO YOU NOT GET that?

[MeNMyVolt]

13. Uh, yes I do. Why don't you go take it up at a Trump rally.

Or something smaller, a Rubio gathering. Or maybe a Cruze crowd. You scream and yell at the wrong people dude.

[whatchamacallit]

16. Why would I take up America's unique failure

to provide quality universal healthcare for its citizens at a Trump rally?

[Scootaloo]

60. Because Democrats are supposed to be the ones advocating for this stuff.

it's not hard to figure out.

[merrily]

68. When you've got absolutely nothing, imply a poster is a Republican, eh?

Stinks.

[Buzz cook]

128. That does seem to be the Sanders supporters bread and butter. nt

nt

[merrily]

129. Even if that one poster were a Sanders' supporter, your comment would have been unfair.

But even that one poster is not a Sanders supporter.

[Buzz cook]

138. Is it?

After being called a republican troll a few times myself maybe I do go with anecdotal evidence.

[merrily]

141. Yes, it is. For just one thing, I never called you that.

[Buzz cook]

148. I never said you did nt

[merrily]

149. Yet, I am a Bernie supporter and you painted with a broad brush.

" I never said you did"

And I never said you said I did.

Silly posting game. Waste of bandwidth.

[Buzz cook]

152. "Not all men"

Remember that phrase? What was its significance?

I got an idea lets do a poll.

[merrily]

156. Your broad brush post:

"That does seem to be the Sanders supporters bread and butter."

Poll that.

[Katashi_itto]

151. Thats the best you can do?

[wilsonbooks]

49. Bingo.

[Recursion]

115. What? No. Almost no countries have Single Payer.

Canada. UK (in a sense). Kind of Austria and South Korea. The vast majority of the world looked at it and decided a mixed system is better.

[Dretownblues]

11. I love your attitude

We can't improve so lets stay the same

[merrily]

72. I thought the New Democrat motto was "Forward." Maybe it's really "Stand Still" or "Regress?"

Maybe, "Pretend whatever is, is the best thing humanly possible."

Just a few more sensible woodchucks and a little "luck," and we'll all be saying,

?w=300&h=186

[Dretownblues]

78. In Clinton world

It is "Stay the Same", In the real world it lets make healthcare better, which is shown by the 80% support among democrats. I hope you do think my previous post was serious, it was meant to be sarcastic.

[merrily]

79. I knew it was sarcasm. I was building from your post, not disagreeing.

Trying to stand on your shoulders.

[Dretownblues]

80. OOPS

I screwed the pooch on that one

[merrily]

81. You didn't screw a thing. You got it right.

[Dretownblues]

82. haha

the original post but I didn't detect the sarcasm in your post, hence screwed the pooch haha

[merrily]

92. My post was not sarcastic. Now, I'm confused. Let's just move on.

Bottom line: I think we both want Medicare for All. That's all that matters.

[Dretownblues]

95. Agreed

on both points

[treestar]

132. we can't right now

we can only fight to hang onto the ACA.

What's the plan for getting a Congress? And please don't claim Bernie can do it alone with the bully pulpit.

[bvf]

15. "We're fighting to at least keep what we've gained."

Progressives are sick to death of being told that treading water is the best they can hope for.

[restorefreedom]

32. *****this****** nt

[Scootaloo]

59. Absolutely

[Mnpaul]

120. It's another "great" Third Way idea

campaign telling voters they can't get anything meaningful done and blame the voters when no shows up.

Stuck on stupid.

[treestar]

131. It's a reality

given the voters of today.

[bvf]

140. That's the spirit!

Aim low!

Oh, fuck it. Let's just roll over and play dead.

[stillwaiting]

24. You keep on fighting against single payer. 'K? If it ever happens, you will get ZERO credit.

It will be despite your efforts, not because you helped garner support for it.

And, that's a fucking shame because if/when it passes it will help save the lives of many. So, it's worth fighting for.

If every other developed country in the world can find a way to offer health care access to all of their citizens, then SO CAN WE. Especially since we are the richest nation in the world.

[MeNMyVolt]

26. I don't fight against single payer.

I just realize it will take more than yelling at your allies to get it.

[stillwaiting]

29. You ABSOLUTELY are fighting against single payer. You are telling everyone who will listen that it

can't happen (or it won't happen anytime soon). We will NEVER get single payer if people keep sprouting that.

When 80% of Democrats want single payer and a MAJORITY of Americans want single payer, it's time to start demanding it from our politicians. It's politically feasible. We have to make the politicians do it.

You are shouting down the movement to do just that. So, yes, you are fighting against single payer. NOW is the time to demand it UNTIL we get it.

[MeNMyVolt]

35. Look, you have to realize...

.. a lot of people who vote for Dems have really good health plans from their employer. You know this. My wife is going through treatment for ovarian cancer, and has really good insurance. She's on LTD right now, and we shopped the ACA plans in case she's forced off. None of her U of C oncologists will take any ACA plans. Do you actually think you are going to be able to talk the millions of folks who have jobs/great-insurance into giving up what they have? This is a "have and have not" fight. The Haves won't give it up.

[ljm2002]

39. You are using a weak point of the ACA...

...namely, the fact that doctors are free to reject ACA plans, and trying to use that as an argument against single payer.

But that is ridiculous. With single payer, doctors are not going to reject patients with Berniecare plans, because ALL patients will have Berniecare.

And the "haves" can still buy private supplemental insurance, so they can still have the premier treatment they feel they are entitled to.

And not only that. As for the Haves who "won't give it up": Fuck them.

[MeNMyVolt]

41. You can't force a doc to accept any plan.

People with money will have their choice of docs, and hospitals, and testing facilities. Why not improve on the ACA? We can eventually force out the insurance COs.

I'm just trying to be realistic here. You can't "fuck them" to the majority of Dem voters. It doesn't work.

[ljm2002]

43. But the majority of Dem voters...

...like the idea of single payer AND would benefit from it.

No, doctors are not going to reject a patient pool of 318 million people. Ain't gonna happen.

Finally, the "Fuck them" is reserved for Haves who, in order to protect what they have, will fight to keep others from having a similar benefit.

[MeNMyVolt]

47. No. they don't.

"Single payer" has no meaning. Spell out just what the hell it's going to cost me, and what docs I can see, what hospitals I can park my ass in. Then let's talk. So far, nobody is saying shit apart from this ephemeral single payer crap.

[ljm2002]

50. Yes. They do.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/229959-majority-still-support-single-payer-option-poll-finds

01/19/15

More than five years after the single-payer system was scrapped from ObamaCare policy debates, just over 50 percent of people say they still support the idea, including one-quarter of Republicans, according to a new poll.

The single-payer option – also known as Medicare for all – would create a new, government-run insurance program to replace private coverage. The system, once backed by President Obama, became one of the biggest casualties of the divisive healthcare debates of 2009.

The idea remains extremely popular among Democrats, with nearly 80 percent in support, according to the poll, which was shared first with The Hill by the Progressive Change Institute.

https://morningconsult.com/2015/12/poll-majority-of-americans-favor-idea-of-single-payer-healthcare-system/

December 17, 2015

Fifty-eight percent of Americans favor the idea of Medicare-for-all, a form of providing universal health insurance, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation poll released Thursday.

The concept is supported by 81 percent of Democrats, while 63 percent of Republicans oppose it. Still, just 5 percent of Democrats say Medicare-for-all would be their most important factor when voting, according to the monthly survey.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who is running for the Democratic presidential nomination, is the only White House candidate who has endorsed a single-payer system.

[merrily]

97. Yes, they do. Polls prove it and what you posted does not negate that.

The best doctors and hospitals in Massachusetts, which are some of the best on the planet, accept Medicare and Medicaid. And, if they don't, you fix that part. You don't use a potential flaw in a superior program as a reason to avoid a superior program. That's nonsense.

[stillwaiting]

40. Look, I realize YOU won't give it up. I got your number.

YOU have to realize that 80% of Democrats want single payer. What does that tell you?

And, a majority of Americans want single payer.

You sound like a damn elitist. "The haves won't give it up." At the very least you are completely rolling over to an elitist worldview.

Well, I hope the American people are successful in taking it away from the haves. The haves are too god-damned selfish. Their selfishness knows NO BOUNDS in this country. They ought to be ashamed.

P.S. Not all haves are assholes. Some people with good insurance know that a single payer plan won't result in them receiving poor health care. My partner and I are two of them.

[MeNMyVolt]

44. Tell me, my great stillwaiting...

.. what do you think a national plan that provides coverage per person that is typical for the majority of Dem supporters? Then, add on the new coverage for all who have no insurance. It's upward of 12K/yr, not counting the new people who would be covered.

That's why SBS is getting hit on this. Show us the numbers.

[stillwaiting]

46. We have to restructure our entire health care system. Now tell me it can't be done.

And, you'll be wrong.

It CAN be done. It will have drastic effects on our economy. The American people deserve to live in a country where we are committed to each others well-being. It is a necessary ingredient of a civilized country in my opinion.

That 12K/yr would come drastically down when we restructure our health care system and TAKE THE PROFITS AND MASSIVE OVERHEAD out of the equation.

Again, tell me it can't be done. It's clear you WISH it can't be done. But, it can. And, it must. Because our current system is immoral.

[MeNMyVolt]

48. Yes, I agree it's immoral.

Again, please lay out the plan to make it not so. "Profits and overhead" will make up for the millions who receive no healthcare now? Don't think so.

And thanks for the "you wish" stuff.

[stillwaiting]

51. Oh you're quite welcome.

If other countries can find a way SO CAN WE. Period. End of story. Especially since we're the richest nation in the world per capita.

It's ridiculous to expect for me to lay out a specific plan right now. We need political actors who are acting in good faith to make this possible. Bernie would assemble a team to do just that.

Now, this has been a real blast for both of us I'm sure, but this is the end of the line for us.

I have read MANY of your posts over the past month, and I don't think I've agreed with a single thing you've stated in any post. I'm not interested in changing your mind because I don't think I can so I'm going to have to add you to the list. You've earned your place. I really don't need to be aggravated by your posts any longer.

I do wish your wife well and I hope she has a full and swift recovery. Truly, I do.

[MeNMyVolt]

53. Thank you for your last sentence.

That was a nice thing to say. I also wish the best for you and yours.

ETA: I really mean that. It helps hearing stuff like that. Especially from folks I don't really know.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

113. I hate when people argue that we're too weak to get something done.

I have no respect for that kind of defeatist whimpering.

[merrily]

99. Poster, please. Pols and their shills are hitting SBS on everything, not just this.

And the reasons he is getting hit on everything are obvious.

[Scootaloo]

61. "It's hard, so let's not try"

Rallying cry of the Clinton campaign.

[MeNMyVolt]

62. Really deep.

Maybe a jpeg would help.

[Scootaloo]

65. Words suffice to convey the point.

You're too scared of opposition to even try to achieve.

[MeNMyVolt]

69. Give me the plan. Lay it out.

Let The People decide. Haven't seen anything yet.

[Scootaloo]

71. You've seen plenty, but you're dedicated to objecting to everything Bernie says or proposes

Sort of like back in 2008, when Clinton supporters were making the exact same smears and attacks against Obama's health care proposals.

[MeNMyVolt]

76. Haven't seen anything.

And sorry, I'm a rabid PBO supporter.

How can I say this more succinctly. What exactly is the plan?

[Scootaloo]

87. Man, this is getting amazing.

Did you know that there are apparently absolutely no Clinton supporters who supported her in 2008? Wow. At least, I haven't met a single one. It's astounding, really. Every. Last. One was a "rabid Obama supporter" just like you! I remember 2008 as being actually a fairly close primary. Where did all those Clinton supporters go? Is there something like an Amber alert for entire political constituencies? Was Judy Winslow a Hillary supporter?

You do understand that in the course of campaigns, exactly-detailed plans for sweeping projects don't exist? My point is that Obama did not have one. he had broad proposals for what he wanted and ways to achieve it. This is the same thing Bernie has provided - you can look it up on his campaign page, which is a nice one-stop shop for your questions about his campaign. The reason for this is because these things are complex pieces of legislation. The Affordable Care Act is 2,700 pages long. Obama didn't get those 2,700 pages jotted down on the campaign trail, and the library worth of follow-ups certainly didn't happen while he was riding the bus around Iowa.

But hey. you're a 'rabid Obama Supporter" so it's like i'm preaching to the choir, right? You already understand this, right?

[MeNMyVolt]

89. Feeltheburn is not a Sanders site.

All I asked for is the actual plan and the costs/benefits. Too difficult Scoot?

[Scootaloo]

94. Uffda, my bad. Still, it has the correct information

And yes, in fact, you're asking for exact details on something that cannot have exact details until it actually gets written. And as you SHOULD know, as a 'rabid obama supporter' from 2008, these things don't get written on a campaign trail.

[merrily]

100. BOOM!

That had to leave a mark. Wonder if he knows it.

[jeff47]

117. Actually, it is.

Just like CorrectTheRecord is a Clinton site. Both are working with their respective campaigns.

[merrily]

112. Rallying cry of all fans of New Democrats, too. Please see Reply 72.

[merrily]

90. Thanks. Employer plans were the Nixon proposal in 1974, forty-one years ago. Time for something more

I'm sorry about your wife and wish her well, but Medicare for all is the best way to go.

[merrily]

93. So you yell at your allies to make sure they don't fight for Medicare for All?

[mythology]

101. Single payer and universal coverage are not the same thing.

There are only a few countries that actually have single payer, most have universal coverage through a mixed private and public system. The Netherlands ranks highest in Europe in health outcomes, but has a mandate that all adults have to purchase health insurance.

But even if we did somehow pass single payer, do you really want to put all your health care dollars in the hands of Paul Ryan, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio? Look how hard they are fighting to cut Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, welfare (or at least non-corporate welfare).

Single payer is not a panacea

[merrily]

102. Put payment decisions in the hands of Congress, as opposed to the hands of private insurers?

Hobson's Choice, perhaps, but, at least, we vote for members of Congress. I don't own a controlling interest in any private insurer.

Despite all the poo flung at Medicare and Medicaid, more people had longer and better lives because of them than they would have without them.

Criticize Obama for not including a strong public option and we're told Obamacare was never intended to be the be all and end all. Urge something better and we're told nothing better is possible or, according to you, even desirable. DU needs to make its mind.

[stillwaiting]

114. In the countries with universal coverage, the plans are much more robust compared to what we offer.

And, the entire concept of "medical bankruptcy" is quite foreign to other countries.

You're not fighting for a better system either, and it's a damn shame.

Throwing fear and doubt just like your preferred candidate. You do support HRC, right?

It's time to start fighting for a better health care system. Fear of the Republicans is such a cowardly and horrible reason to not fight for a better system. And, the people that I have seen do that tend to be quite well off and have extremely good health insurance. They don't seem to care a whit about the horrible realities that MANY Americans STILL deal with (even with the ACA).

I guess we should privatize Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid completely because of the scary Republicans, right? I mean just how pathetic is your line of thinking here.

[LeatherSofa]

31. Agree.

It was monumental to get the Congress to finally accept ACA. As conservative as this country has turned and with gerrymandering still in play, there is no way "universal single payer" is going to happen. Howard and Hillary know that. And Sanders knows it too. If you heard him tonight on Chris Hayes, he more or less acknowledged it.

It's his ambitious followers that are not being realistic. Some future generation, maybe. Not this one.

[ljm2002]

34. Bernie's "healthcare plan" has already happened...

...not only on this planet, but on this continent.

Canada has a single payer system, very similar to Bernie's proposed healthcare plan.

Furthermore, when people are polled on issues without labels or parties attached, they are very much in favor of most of Bernie's agenda, including single payer health care.

It is you who does not understand what country you live in. You have dutifully absorbed the permissible boundaries on political discourse. You probably think the US is a "center-right" country, just like all the pundits on TV keep telling us.

Only thing is, they are lying.

[Scootaloo]

58. And WE'RE fighting to ADVANCE those gains.

That's the point of progress.

[merrily]

67. Dean was never a progressive. Search DU for the many posts by joshcryer saying that and see

Reply 52 and the post linked in Reply 52.

Plenty "on this planet" have health care far superior to that of the US.

[MeNMyVolt]

73. Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I like Dean.

Good voice for Democrats. I might quibble around the edges with him, but he pretty much kicks ass.

"Plenty on this planet"... Again, tell me how you're going to convince the current group of employer-insured/Medicare to change.

[merrily]

74. See Reply 72. Maybe you (New Democrats) take some of the time, energy, bandwidth and air time

you take to bash liberals and convince Americans they should settle for a turd sandwich and use it to fight for what Americans actually need and want.

[MeNMyVolt]

77. uh, OK Merrily. You take care now.

Best wishes to you and yours.

[jeff47]

119. No, now he's a lobbyist for health insurers.

So of course he's going to oppose single-payer now. His paycheck depends on it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. I'd say, either ...

He has been corrupted by the establishment machine ... Or, he is a seasoned political animal, that knows what can, and can't be accomplished.

BTW, in the very next segment, didn't Bernie admit that Medicare for All was a pipe dreams?

}1SBM braces for the impending assault}

[Eric J in MN]

14. My respect for Howard Dean dropped when he said there shouldn't mosques near WTC.

By contrast, while I don't like NYC's former mayor Michael Bloomberg, Bloomberg's finest hour was standing against bigotry regarding the World Trade Center mosque controversy.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

20. Without wanting to wade into the Clinton/Sanders wars

I could not agree more. When I saw Howard Dean take the side of unreasonable intolerance and prejudice on that issue, I lost all respect for him. Racial and religious tolerance are big issues for me and he failed the test

And yes, Bloomberg behaved admirably on this one. As did President Obama, former President Clinton and even the very right wing former Bush Administration solicitor general Ted Olson. When I saw Howard Dean tack to the right of Ted Olson on this issue for no good reason I could see, that's when I was done with him.

[beam me up scottie]

37. That was shameful.

He lost any claim he might have had to the progressive label after that.

[bigtree]

17. what did Hillary make Howard do?

...

[highprincipleswork]

18. Howard Dean has lost his way.

[merrily]

85. Howard, always a centrist, knows what is good for Howard.

Please see Reply 52 and the post linked in it.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

21. He's a pragmatic progressive. Probably comes from actually running a fucking state.

[appalachiablue]

91. How long since Howard Dean held a real position other than DNC head which he was replaced

by DWS I believe. Having much expertise and talent Dean made known that he wanted HHS Secy. but was passed over by Obama. For the last 5+ years he's been a floater commenter on MSNBC and a few other mainstream current affairs shows. If this 2016 bonding with Establishment Dems. and the HRC campaign doesn't produce a desired political position, Dean might want to move in another direction, JMO. He's a very capable person although his centrism and this recent healthcare twisting are unappealing. I also thought of him as more progressive but he seems to have changed in the last 10 years. In 2006 I met him, good speaker.

[appalachiablue]

116. Forget that, Dean's a lobbyist/advisor for a major public policy firm that works

for the health care industry and Big Pharma as noted in an OP from the Intercept posted here today. Yuck.

[merrily]

103. Maybe from being born into a Wall Street family with a pied a terre on Park Avenue and loving him

some status quo. Sensible woodchuck.

[MisterP]

124. running a fucking state right next door to a working 1payer healthcare system, that is

[senz]

22. "Under the spreading chestnut tree I sold you and you sold me."

That's what happened to Howard Dean.

[merrily]

104. Born into a Wall Street family, his one liberal issue was health care and he

just sold that, too.

[jfern]

25. Dean was never really progressive, it's just that by being strongly anti Iraq war

he was the most progressive on the top issue of the 2004 election. Of course now he's supporting a big hawk who voted for the Iraq war.

[merrily]

105. BINGO. Makes me wonder if he was ever really against the Iraq War or if he simply thought

he could differentiate himself from the 2004 field on that issue. Neither he nor Obama ever had to take a public vote on the issue, but with Obama, we at least had a 2002 speech. I don't know if we had anything like that with Dean. (He ran before I started paying closer attention to politics.)

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. "What happened to Howard Dean?" is the question that might have been asked in 2004

What changed a center-right DLC type governor into the voice of the progressive movement almost overnight. Barney Franks (who I don't necessarily agree with all the time) described it as Gov. Dean seeing a niche to fill on the left - so he went for it.

[emulatorloo]

33. imho Dea never pretended to be anything he wasn't. However a lot of people projected their own views

on him.

I really don't care for the vitriol being spewed at him today.

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. I agree. IN 2004 I sort of supported him - because he was the most visable candidate

to strongly oppose the invasion of Iraq. Also he was the strongest voice at least pointing in the direction of universal healthcare. IN 2004 to even support civil unions was in the context of the time a huge step forward toward marriage equality. But, in spite of my somewhat lukewarm support for Gov. Dean (I did send him a bunch money though) I knew then that he was center-right - at least by Vermont standards. He never really claimed to be otherwise. He just saw an opportunity to tap into opposition to the invasion and a chance to throw out a few liberal/progressive red meat words.

I remember in 1968 - at the Democratic Convention - there was a button that said, "George McGovern is the real Eugene McCarthy." I suppose we could have said in 2004 that Dennis Kucinich was the real Howard Dean. The candidate with the actual substance - not the candidate who inspired people to believe things that they didn't even claim about themselves.

[LeatherSofa]

36. Nothing happened to him.

What has happened to some of you? You have turned against him just because he doesn't prefer your candidate. He is the same as he's ever been, but he has a conviction that doesn't match yours.

[SHRED]

86. Conviction?

As we suffer with private health insurance costs he thinks we're "impractical".

[Bernblu]

38. He took a job as a shill for Hillary

[merrily]

52. Howard Dean has always been a privileged centrist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12779709 (Dean Before the Scream)

And had an A rating from the NRA, in comparison to Sander's F for many years (though finally went to D-about a year ago)

Liberals in the know in 2004 (I wasn't in the know) preferred Dean to Kerry in the 2004 primary because Kerry had voted for the Iraq War.

Health care was the one issue on which Dean was truly liberal and, now, he's sold out that issue, too.

[jfern]

106. Bernie has by far the lowest NRA rating of any major Vermont politician

in the last 25 years. Bernie: D-. Everyone else: A-C.

[WillyT]

55. He Got Crushed By The Media-Wing Of The Oligarchs...

And...

He then got offered a lucrative job by the same people.

Apparently... people can easily be bought off.

[Scootaloo]

63. Not a thing.

Dean was never hard left. He was a plain-talker who opposed the Iraq war which, in 2004, made him a better candidate for the left than John Kerry's mumbling apologia for the same.

[MrMickeysMom]

70. He's been handed his hat and told to sit on the sidelines...

I expect he'll be waiting for a chance to jump off with the Clintons into the abyss.

Impracticality angle + Clinton family lie angle = all the best coming from the old and newest sell-outs.

[jalan48]

75. Must be some money somewhere for him in the deal, or a cabinet position perhaps?

[Geronimoe]

83. Dean never recovered

After corporate media destroyed him, he has been serving the establishment to the best of his abilities.

The way I see it, anyone (including Democrats) who are against single payer universal healthcare, is willing to kill you or your family for power. It doesn't take much illness and dealing with for-profit system to learn how broken the system is. And how dangerous it is.... the third leading cause of death after heart failure and cancer.

[SHRED]

84. Dean has money

He doesn't sweat healthcare that's obvious.

[Dawson Leery]

88. The proleft demands that all bow to their shyster pony of the moment.

[Scootaloo]

96. "Proleft"? "Shyster pony"?

You could at lest try for subtlety. I mean you still wouldn't fool anyone, but it's sort of an etiquette thing.

[m-lekktor]

98. yeah that was an "interesting" post.

[senz]

108. Hie thee to the Far Right from whence thou comest.

[FlatBaroque]

136. Please post more often

and please make sure you keep that Hill logo next to your erudite words. THANK YOU

[Betty Karlson]

111. I'm still in favour of a 50 state strategy.

[jeff47]

118. He now works as a health insurance lobbyist.

He's doing what's best for his paycheck.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

123. He's another disappointment

[olddots]

125. those that sell out have little to offer

Howard Who ?

[Buzz cook]

127. Nothing

He just prefers Clinton to Sanders.

[NCTraveler]

133. He is looking great. He is a progressive. Nt

[ChiciB1]

157. You Should Google His Name And See What Lobbyist Company

he's representing... ALONG WITH HRC! And if THIS is what YOU call A PROGRESSIVE, you have the WRONG DICTIONARY!

Try it, I wonder if you will. It's ALL there, or it was last Thursday! Could have been scrubbed by now! He's in bed with a Health Care Industry that sells/controls drugs!

WAKE UP!

[NCTraveler]

162. I'm awake.

Good morning. It's a beautiful day!!!!

[RiverLover]

134. He was faking it, just like Hill is now, manipulating us with fake Populism

Dean gave fiery speeches in front of young and enthusiastic supporters and claimed that he was from the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." The message resonated and the momentum improbably had Dean leading in the polls just weeks before the New Hampshire primary.....While his supporters were excited at Dean's populist fervor, Nelson was back in Vermont, rolling his eyes.

"Everyone in the world was saying this guy was a real liberal, antiwar politician, but it just wasn't true," he said. "Dean, the candidate, was not the same person we saw govern in Vermont. He was a creation of Joe Trippi."

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/34327-populism-as-an-electoral-strategy-from-howard-dean-to-hillary-clinton

Thank you Bernie for being the real deal. I'm so sick of fake progressives.

[Gothmog]

135. Howard Dean is a progressive

[mylye2222]

153. You are right!

In 2004 he posed himself as a so-called " anti establishement", and now he is praising Clintons for everything, endorsed Hillary early.
Unfortunely, people become blinded when the politician is a good actor.