Hillary Clinton is now campaining against Single Payer health insurance

[Tom Rinaldo]

Gone are the days when establishment and center left Democrats hid behind the argument that although Single Payer has a lot going for it, it is simply not possible to get such a system established here because the American public and political system are too resistant to it. That is the line that Barack Obama took when he worked on his Affordable Care Act proposals. He essentially said that Single Payer is a political non starter but he did not argue against its merits and advantages.

When Clinton says something like the following she is intentionally framing Single Payer in a negative light, by belittling what it has to offer the American people and by stressing Republican talking points against it - conveniently leaving out the financial windfall that our families and the economy itself will benefit from by no longer having to pay premiums to the private sector in order to have health insurance. She also omits any acknowledgement of the cost cutting efficiency that a Single Payer system offers America.

"I think one can only draw the conclusion that the Sanders campaign does not want to outline what would amount to a massive across the board tax increase," said Jake Sullivan, senior policy adviser for Hillary for America. "They want to essentially create a circumstance in which they try to lead voters to believe they can implement single-payer health care at no burden to anyone and everyone would be better off."

That is the type of statement I expect to read from someone like Ted Cruz, not from someone who bills herself as "a progressive Democrat".

[99Forever]

1. K&R

[Katashi_itto]

2. K&R down with 3rd way

[Rosa Luxemburg]

42. Too much influence from the health insurance companies

[Punkingal]

3. I am so SICK of the tax increase bullshit...just like Republicans, scaring people.

[Duckhunter935]

4. that is why she can not be

Trusted

[restorefreedom]

6. reason # 683 nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

23. Hillary, once again, showin her true colors.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

94. She is sounding like Trump already

[lewebley3]

155. Sanders is talking like Trump: promsing single payer: when he has

not votes and not money. He is attacking the ACA

[Tom Rinaldo]

164. He voted for the ACA

It could not have passed without his vote. He wants the best possible for the American people. When that was the ACA he supported it. He will not "dismantle it" unless we can have something better instead. And he is working for that something better.We all should be.

[lewebley3]

177. He doest nothing but complain about the ACA: His supporter bash Obama

[ChisolmTrailDem]

182. Well you know what, I'll pay an extra four bucks or whatever per paycheck in order...

...to eliminate private, for-profit insurance companies that require high deductibles and don't want to pay when you make a claim. I'll pay an extra few bucks to eliminate all the other social medical programs, like Medicaid, in return for Medicare For All. I'll pay a few bucks to save the backbreaking monthly premiums that exist now under the private health insurance and broken healthcare system.

If ACA is the price we pay for rolling all of our healthcare programs into a Medicare For All program that covers every American, sending them home to heal while never having to think about the bill or how to pay for it, then so be it.

If ACA is the price we pay for making private, for-profit health insurance vultures extinct, then so. be. it!

[CorporatistNation]

206. Bernie Wants To Expand ACA As Obama Promised In First Place... Hillary Blathering

On Morning Joe this morning prevaricating/misrepresenting as only she can do... and do it well saying that Bernie wants to take away people's health care. PATHETIC!

[CorporatistNation]

190. Clinton Inc. IS A Full On Corporatist Democrat... Certainly NOT A Progressive!

Not when Wall Street has "bought" your loyalty and judgement many times over...

[riversedge]

5. You been sleeping? Hillary has advocated her healh proposals since day one of

her campaign and added on as she listened to people in her Town Halls--for example--drug treatment vs jail time. Cure for Alzheimer's, Care giver tax credits. etc.

[Duckhunter935]

9. yep, she evolved

From her principled attacks on candidate Obama in 2007.

[daleanime]

15. And yet now she finds it politically expedient.....

to be against the idea. I wonder why?

[Dustlawyer]

33. She doesn't want to be seen as agreeing with Bernie on something at this stage in the race.

She is desperate to find an issue to go after Bernie other than guns. This allows her to paint Bernie as unrealistic and fringe. She doesn't care about the effect that her attacks on single payer will do to the cause. It's whatever it takes to get her in the seat of POWER!!!

[closeupready]

52. You have absolutely nailed this here.

Thank you.

[artislife]

99. She sounds like a republican congress with just being against something that her opponent is for...n

[Populist_Prole]

106. A hundred bingos for you

On the other hand, I feel greatful that in doing so she is pushing herself to the right for all to see. I mean, I expected her to talk all populisty during a campaign and then move hard right if she wins the primary and general; but she's moving to the right now. She's handing this to Bernie on a silver platter.

[ViseGrip]

132. Good Hillary! Hand it to Bernie....I'm so ashamed of Hillary and her daughter at this time.

And forever. She wants my vote if she's the nom? Funny, the things they expect.

[libdem4life]

143. She is as dense (hapless) as a dorknob. Bernie has a D- from the NRA. And she's using that?

He/we should just laugh at that one and parrot .... "D-" When I went to school that was the closest to Fail you could get. That's the grade you got when you really had failed, but the teacher wanted to be nice.

Seriously, it should be relabeled as the NRA-D-

And single payer...a flip flop of catastrophic proportions (including sending out her daughter with that claptrap). That's why Bernie is now the front runner. I think that Chelsea unwittingly was the final blow to many Undecided Voters. Not her, per se, but that her Mother sent her out with blatant, um, seriously fact challenged misinformation.

As a mother, that took a hit on me. Could Hillary be that desperate? Yes, I know Chelsea is a grown up, but not really as she hasn't had to work for anything in her privileged life. That, to me, sealed the health care issue up.

The tide has turned.

[NorthCarolina]

16. Really, anything in there about getting rid of for-profit Insurance Companies?

I know the people really want that.

[Kelvin Mace]

20. She advocates for a system that is most profitable

to investors, not for what is best for the public.

She may push "drug treatment versus jail time" this week, but she was a VERY vocal advocate of the 1996 Omnibus Crime Act which filled the prisons to capacity and the coffers of the prisons for profit crowd.

When she was running against Obama she was INCENSED that he criticized her on health care. She lectured him that Democrats DO NOT criticize other Democrats on health care.

And then this week she stood, with her daughter, and lied through her teeth about Bernie Sander's plans on health care.

[SammyWinstonJack]

74. She's horrible.

[virtualobserver]

27. Now, she is attacking single payer as a "massive tax increase"

She is framing issues in Republican language.

[Goblinmonger]

30. Why doesn't she want single payer?

Other than a loss of money to insurance companies that support her, I can't think of a reason?

And, sure, she can think it will never happen, but why push Republican tax increase talking points to fight against it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

32. She previously advocated FOR her proposals - much like Obama did

She did not do a frontal attack against Single Payer before. I saw Howard Dean interviewed yesterday and I appreciated his candor as usual. He called Hillary a highly talented pragmatist who can get things done, and Bernie Sanders a visionary. He did not shy away from his prior support for universal health care, he said that moving toward single payer is a complex proposition and that he was backing the pragmatist here because he had confidence in her ability to deliver on her proposed reforms. He did NOT resort to Republican talking points and he admitted some discomfort with aspects of Clinton's attacks on Bernie - which he excused as a typical byproduct of the heat of the moment in politics when so much is riding o the outcome of an election.

Dean took the conventional approach in not fully embracing Single Payer now - he did not distort the facts to oppose it. Hillary is breaking new conservative ground in her campaign now.

[dreamnightwind]

115. Very reasonable post. I'd like to add, Dean is now a lobbyist, big pharma and health insurance

In case you haven't seen this:

Howard Dean, Now Employed by Health-Care LOBBY FIRM, Opposes Bernie Sanders on Single-Payer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511006264

[pangaia]

169. Oh, no. Tell me it isn't so.

So sorry to hear that, Howard. You just lost me.

[Ikonoklast]

207. Howard Dean was never as Liberal as DU thought he was.

Dean is a political moderate, at best, and his record shows that.

[pangaia]

208. You know, I just last night learned that.

I bought "Outsider In The (White) House"

[jeff47]

40. And now she's opposing them. Pretty fast evolution, huh?

for example--drug treatment vs jail time. Cure for Alzheimer's, Care giver tax credits. etc.

Guess what? All those cost money. Which means they break her current argument against single-payer.

[Phlem]

138. !

OK!

[rhett o rick]

141. Are you saying she is really in favor of single payer and that words from her campaign

are wrong?

The big money from corporations taint her political stands. She has amassed a huge wealth from those corporations.

[pangaia]

168. "...as she listened to people in her Town Halls-.."

Oh give me a break.

Listened to people in her town halls...

[ChisolmTrailDem]

180. I know right! LOL! And don't you see how great it is for Hillary that her sudden evolution...

...on single payer just happens to be happening at the most convenient time??!!11!1??

[pangaia]

181. Now she's running an ad where she quoted bible verses back in 2014 or so.

I South Carolina.. to win AA voters...

[ChisolmTrailDem]

183. ♪ A-pandering we will go, a-pandering we will go, hi-ho the diary oh, a-pandering we will go! ♪ nt

[stillwaiting]

7. Yes. She MUST not win the Democratic nomination. We can not accept this from a Democratic President.

Not when 80% of us want single payer, and not when a majority of Americans want single payer.

I believe if Hillary Clinton becomes President and continues to spread the LIE that single payer is not possible in this country that the 80% figure of Democrats that want single payer will erode. Fewer Democrats will want it after listening to her drivel, and that is EXACTLY why she has been paid such ridiculous amounts by the health care industry, and that is EXACTLY why SHE MUST LOSE this primary.

She is literally fighting against a system that will save lives and improve the happiness and well-being of American citizens. All for the benefit of the corrupt health care industry. Bernie clearly can win the General Election, and he must win the primary.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

26. Hillary really is her own worst enemy... she's so done, after this latest crap.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Mnpaul]

114. I keep hearing how intelligent she is

but I don't see it in reality. One stupid mistake after another.

[rhett o rick]

144. I don't agree you can conclude from her actions that she isn't intelligent. I think her "mistakes"

are carefully calculated for her personal gain. She has amassed a huge fortune in a short time, from her "mistakes".

[Mnpaul]

146. but the thing she really wants

seems to be slipping away.... again.

And how much intelligence does it to take handouts from the ultra wealthy? Idiot Republicans do it all the time.

[enid602]

39. Medicare for all

When is the last time we had a Democratic Candidate who promised Single Payer? I can't think of one. And it's an odd time to promise Single Payer, when our 65% debt/GDP ratio is the highest it's been since coming out of the Great Depression , when it was also at 65%.

Medicare is already the largest Single Payer in the world. While we all praise its efficiency, will it still be so efficient when paying ALL insurance costs? I think this is worth some debate. Remember, Medicare is already larger than NIH in Britain. If Single Payer is the answer, why doesn't Europe have it? I don't see the Europeans moving expand NIH to cover the entire European Union (whose economy is roughly the size of the US) anytime soon.

If for profit insurance companies are inherently bad, why are all claims in France paid by insurance companies? Why don't we adopt their system?

[stillwaiting]

48. I would be completely fine with adopting France's system.

I should specify single payer or universal coverage in my posts more often.

BUT, the universal coverage that would be acceptable to me would be something like France has. NOT something like the ACA that we currently have. There are huge differences between the two. And, the American people deserve something much, much better.

Hillary is not for universal coverage either though. She is for tweaking ACA, and we need something much better than that. ACA was progress, but we need more and we need it now. I'm pretty sure the near $3 million dollars she has received from the corrupt, for-profit health care industry over the past couple of years assures us Hillary is not going to rock the for-profit industry much, if at all. At least that fact would probably assure a large majority of people that that is true.

[enid602]

55. single payer

I, too admire the French system, and think we can get there (yes, within the confines of the ACA) by a)letting Congress/Medicare negotiate prices with Big Pharma, b)de-regulating insurance companies to cross state lines and c) initiating tort reform. PROMISING single payer, however is political suicide.

[stillwaiting]

97. Your prescription is not even close to being good enough. Tort reform and de-regulation

across state lines are both on insurance companies wish lists however.

And, I strongly disagree with your opinion about single payer being political suicide. NOT when 80% of Democrats want it and a majority of Americans want it.

I do believe I will be fighting against you to achieve a health care system that most Americans want. And, I do believe you will expend a lot of your energy fighting me, most Democrats, and most Americans. It's a political fight well worth having.

[enid602]

167. health

As mentioned upthread, I prefer the French system, characterized by five insurance companies administering all claims. Of course, France is noted fot its insurance industry; it's what they do best. Ours needs some work.

Funny, I can't think of a single developed country (France, Canada and Britain included) that don't have pretty serious tort reform. Maybe we're exceptional?

[eridani]

194. The purpose of selling accross state lines is for companies with low standards to

--fuck over people who don't live in their state. Tort reform is total bullshit. Malpractice insurance is cheap everyplace else, and often government provided or subsidized. In Japan, general practitioners pay $100/month for their insurance, which includes a subscription to the medical journal. The reason it's cheap is that when something goes wrong, patients are not stuck with huge extra expenses that they have to cover, and are thus not motivated to go looking for deep pockets to sue regardless of whether malpractice actually occurred.

[Mnpaul]

116. selling insurance across state lines

is not what you think it is. Before the ACA they could do it but had to meet regs in the state where it was offered. What they wanted to do is change the regulations to abide by the requirements of the state where the company is located. They want to be able to like credit card companies did, move to a state with liitle or no regulation and sell crap policies to everyone.

[Warren Stupidity]

199. the problem with DU rules is that one only has to swear allegience to the party.

Advocating rightwing republican policies is fine as long as one does it wearing a donkey suit.

[Mnpaul]

200. Well then Hillary should be disqualified from consideration here

because she snubbed the party and stayed on the ballot in Michigan. She is not a loyal Dem.

[boobooday]

85. And so who should be left out of our health care system? eom

[enid602]

171. lawyers

Lawyers

[eridani]

193. Europeans do have it. Scandinavian countries and Italy have a British style

--government run program.. The question of how we pay for it is so goddamed idiotic that it is really getting hard to type and retype the obvious answer. Per capita, we pay nearly twice as much as every other industrialized country. We are already paying for universal health care--we just aren't getting it.

Medicare is not true single payer because price negotiations are explicitly forbidden. That will obviously have to change.

The French system is government run and controlled top to bottom, with prices set by the government after negotiation with providers. The role of private insurance is to deal with the 30% co-pays for all services. Private companies are not allowed to sell for profit health insurance, but they typically use it as a loss leader to sell more profitable life and casualty policies.

[davidpdx]

205. South Korea has a national health insurance plan that covers everyone

The GDP of South Korea is much lower than that of the US. So when people say we can't afford universal care, it is a flat out lie.

[eridani]

213. SK and Taiwan both put in single payer in the 90s

Interesting that they chose Canada over Britain as a model.

[davidpdx]

216. I believe South Korea started phasing the program in around 88

Believe it or not, the current president has proposed moving toward a US system (as in pre-ACA). If that happened I'd be the first one out with a pitch fork.

[cali]

8. It's a political calculation and it reflects something very troubling:

It is impossible to discern what her core beliefs are on issue after issue, or indeed if she has any core beliefs on those issues.

[Duckhunter935]

11. she has none

That I have found. She changes every view.

[djean111]

12. I don't think she has any core beliefs except that she wants to be president.

I cannot come to any other conclusion.

Campaigning against Single Payer, and lying about the cost - reprehensible, and tells me she would not really improve the ACA if she were president.

[tazkcmo]

18. Bingo.

Not a smear. Not a RW meme. Not a Swift Boat Operation. A documented and verifiable track record of contradictions that most of know at it's best as pandering and at it's worst as lying. Now she is pandering/lying about Sen Sanders' position on single payer while also flip flopping on two issues (at least she's becoming more efficient) at the same time: Attacking fellow Democrats on single payer and the Truman goal of achieving it. Spin spin spin goes the Weathervain.

[daleanime]

19. +1

[Kelvin Mace]

21. Her beliefs are

"How rich and powerful can I get while being able to parse my actions as altruistic?"

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

29. Hillary? Core beliefs? hahahahaha

Why Bernie outshines her on EVERY issue and will walk away with the nomination.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[bowens43]

10. she will do or say anything to get the power she feels belongs to her......

this woman is the epitome of everything that is wrong with our political system, she i unfit to hold any public office.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

31. Not to worry... Hillary is finished, over, done. Time for Bernie to lead us.

[riversedge]

86. ha ha. You have that vision thingy like Sanders--pie in the sky thinking.

[Phlem]

140. That's just pathetic.

[bvf]

160. "Vision thing" was

one of Bush I's stupider utterances.

Only those without vision mock those who do.

Keep those blinders tight, but be careful not to restrict your circulation.

[Javaman]

170. Let me ask you a very simple question: are you for single payer health care? nt

[Indepatriot]

13. Camp Weathervain in full Repuke mode....

[Mnpaul]

25. Full desperation mode

frantically flinging poo everywhere in an attempt to stop her falling numbers.

[Doctor_J]

14. She is completely corrupt due to her life in DC

Completely devoid of morals. I wonder who will vote for her in the ge.

[Jarqui]

17. If Hillary is incapable of grasping Sanders' healthcare plan like Politifact did so easily,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511005890

after all of her experience in that area since Hillarycare ...

Then she should withdraw because she clearly isn't up to doing the job she's running for.

[raindaddy]

22. In other words she has the backs of the big insurance and pharmaceutical companies

along with the Wall Street banks....

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. She comes across as the end product ......

She comes across as the end product of a poll-derived algorithm with a calculus that accounts for everything—well, almost. Asked what kind of ice cream she liked last year, she conceded a system malfunction, responding “I like nearly everything.”


The problem for Clinton is that her attacks on Sanders, policy merits and demerits aside, are so brazenly opportunistic that they risk backfiring. While Sanders has been talking about income inequality consistently for decades, Clinton has been consistently hammering Sanders on gun control for months. If her shrinking lead in the polls is any guide, it hasn’t done her much good. In part, that’s because it’s hard for anyone to take seriously the idea that a President Sanders would be in the NRA’s pocket.

But most of all, I think, it’s because it is hard to believe that Hillary Clinton sincerely believes much of anything that she says. Which brings me to her other line of attack, which is no less cynical but comes across as a lot more strange: criticizing Sanders’ proposal for single-payer universal healthcare.


Yesterday, Matt Bruenig tweeted a thoughtful analysis: Clinton is trying to have it both ways, scaring people about higher taxes (without mentioning the savings single-payer would create), while at the same time spreading fear that single-payer, in replacing CHIP and the Affordable Care Act, would take away people’s health insurance (without mentioning that it would be replaced by new, simpler and better insurance).

The attacks—right, wrong, and otherwise—are a sign of desperation. And they may very well remind voters, once again, that Hillary Clinton will say anything to be elected president.


https://www.salon.com/2016/01/14/hillary_clintons_fatal_weakness_exposed_yet_again_why_bernie_sanders_surge_is_exposing_her_biggest_political_shortcoming/

[MynameisBlarney]

34. I'd happily pay more taxes if it meant I could get quality healthcare.

And as for Hillary...this just further illustrates how beholden she is to the insurance companies and big pharma.

[eridani]

195. Anyone who prefers a $900/month "premium" to a $200/month "tax"

--shouldn't be running around outside without adult supervision.

[MynameisBlarney]

204. Indeed.

Nor should they be running around without a helmet and drool cups.

[Armstead]

35. That is what is inexcusable

She could criticize Sanders proposals without demonizining the goal of universal health care. Candidates Aside, an actual liberal/progressive would NOT throw goals under the bus and add to the GOP message.

Just as she did with gun control and Obama, she has shown that she will change her positions and "values" to whatever seems expedient at the moment.

Obama was a Latte Liberal who hated gun owners and wanted to confuscate their guns.....Now Bernie is an NRA stooge and gun nut.

Now that she's worried, she has thrown the whole concept of universal health coverage under the bus and sounding EXACTLY like a GOP and Insurance lobbyist. Lets scare everyone away from singie payer or any moves in that direction.

She doesn"t give a shit about the larger implications. Forget Sanders, this is bigger than that. She happy to advance the conservative narrative, and feed the publics fear about health care or gun control or any liberal/progressive goal if she decides that will advance her political fortunes.

I have no doubt she'd throw women's rights under the bus if she felt it was politically expedient.

Thats been a perennial pattern if the Clintons, going back to Bills Sistah Soljah moment.

This is why it is difficlt to take the nice liberal portrayal of Clinton very seriously.

[MisterP]

46. they want to attack Sister Souljah *and* be "the BLM candidate"

until the moment they had them expelled (heck, some flunkies tried to say *that* was a racially-sensitive move ...)

it's pure Rahmism--tell the South Side the North Side has it out for them, then go to the North Side and say "you won't believe what I heard the South Side say about you!": what does he even bait Polish Chicago with? the Lemkos?

[Tom Rinaldo]

101. "an actual liberal/progressive would NOT throw goals under the bus and add to the GOP message."

Exactly. Even Obama with his rather luke warm support for a public option understood that clearly. Hillary could have countered Sander's single payer proposal in a principled manner. Dean tried that approach in the interview I saw. Instead she went for the fear card and half truths (that is being charitable) with obvious disinformation intended.

[Triana]

36. Read Wendell Potter's "Deadly Spin"

Hillary is being controlled by huge, moneyed lobbyists and the corporations they work for. Deadly Spin names them and details how they manipulated politicians and public opinion against single payer.

If she'll kowtow to these forces as candidate, she'll do it as President - like Obama shamefully did.

EDIT to add:

Howard Dean, Now Employed by Health-Care Lobby Firm, Opposes Bernie Sanders on Single-Payer

Howard Dean is the latest in a string of Hillary Clinton supporters to charge that Bernie Sanders is wrong to support a single payer health care plan. The former chairman of the Democratic National Committee claimed on MSNBC last night that Sanders’s reforms might result in “chaos” because “trying to implement it would in fact undo people’s health care.” Dean added: “That is something people should be concerned about.”

Dean, a longtime supporter of single-payer, seemed to be changing his tune, a point made by host Chris Hayes during the segment.

This evolution of Dean, known within many circles for his spirited critique of the Iraq War during the 2004 Democratic primary, comes as he has settled into a corporate lobbying career.

Dean, though he rarely discloses the title during his media appearances, now serves as Senior Advisor to the law firm Dentons, where he works with the firm’s Public Policy and Regulation practice, a euphemism for Dentons’ lobbying team. Dean is not a lawyer, but neither is Newt Gingrich, who is among the growing list of former government officials and politicians that work in the Public Policy and Regulation practice of Dentons.

The Dentons Public Policy and Regulation practice lobbies on behalf of a variety of corporate health care interests, including the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, a powerful trade group for drugmakers like Pfizer and Merck.

THE REST: https://theintercept.com/2016/01/14/howard-dean-lobbyist/

[snort]

54. Hmmm. Maybe he really did say

'AGGHHHYAHHHH'!

[EndElectoral]

37. Can we just do what every other civilized country in the world does for a change?

[Proserpina]

43. What? And give up Empire?

[Recursion]

49. You mean, not implement single payer?

I swear, whoever got people fixated on SP as the only form of universal health care is destroying the Democratic parry

[Armstead]

67. Fucking bullshit

Why were single payer advocates shut out from the negotiations about the ACA from the beginning?

Why did a mild little public public option as a small compromise top show people that government insurance mint actually be good for them get shit down by the Democrats?

No compromise. Instead ram Romneycare through.

It isn't single payer advocators who are "destroying" the Democratic party.

[Recursion]

76. Yes it is, because about 3 quarters of people here think it just means "universal healthcare"

Rather than "a particular (and globally unpopular) means of achieving universal healthcare". There's a reason most of the industrialized world doesn't use it.

[Armstead]

80. The problem is we don't even move towards a mixed system

Unless you're verty poor or over 65 you get thrown to the wolves. And even when old, you have to rely on the graces of private insurabnce,

We can do better, but to do that we have to at least TRY, instead of reinforce the message of the GOP that all public insurance is bad and requires a confiscatory tax on everybody.

This has been going on for 30 years. We just keep going around the same circle because Democratic leadership refuses to break the mold.

[Faux pas]

38. Kickin'

[SamKnause]

41. I see people asking what would Trump have to do

to lose his supporters ???

It doesn't matter what he says.

It doesn't matter who he insults.

It doesn't matter how many lies he tells.

It doesn't matter how hateful he is.

I would like to know how many facts will it take to get Clinton supporters

to change their views.

There have been numerous factual videos posted on this site showing numerous

lies and falsehoods.

There has been an enormous amount of factual articles posted showing how many times

she has changed positions on issues.

The way she ran her campaign against President Obama is mentioned daily.

My question is, what will it take ???

I think we have a chance to make history.

I think we have a chance to make this country better for the 99%.

I think we have a chance to make the world a better place.

I think we have a chance to make up for some of our terrible mistakes.

I think we have a chance to start wiping out racism and sexism.

Why would anyone want to throw this history making chance away ???

"Who will vote for Bernie ???"

"Nobody But The People." (I have permission to use this quote from a poster on this site.

I have forgotten the poster's name or handle) If you read this, please give me a .

President Obama said, "The United States of America is the most powerful nation on earth".

I want a president that will use that power wisely and for the good of humanity.

Let the hate fest begin.

[PWPippin]

47. Right on!

And it is going to get pretty ugly. At least it will give Bernie practice before the general election.

[SheilaT]

112. Despite how much they deny it,

Hillary's supporters essentially say they're for her because she's a woman, and it's TIME for a woman in the Oval Office. They insinuate that they played nice in 2008 (nice? Who exactly were those PUMAs?) and so no one, NO ONE should stand in the way of her inevitability.

The shrug off all of her changes as "she evolved, doesn't everyone?" never willing to acknowledge that not every changes like that. Some people take principled stands from the very beginning.

[beltanefauve]

159. Great post

I like the way you formatted too. Lots of good points, and easy to read.

[SamKnause]

162. Thank you so very much.

[closeupready]

44. Yep. You know what? Everyone was an infant, once - blank slates, all of us.

Then as we grew and learned, we formed ideas about the world and how it should be. Sometimes trauma or crisis changes us and our ideas; other times, we change because we've sold out, given up, or just otherwise don't care anymore. I think that's what's happened to Hillary, and why I absolutely will not vote for her.

Bernie, OTOH, pushes pushes PUSHES, he CARES, and he will NOT be bought.

K&R

[closeupready]

45. Also, how many DU members have sickened, or even sadly died, due to lack of

adequate health care?

Really PISSES me off to see this issue being used as a football when all parties discussing it will have stellar, four-star, gold-plated health care for the rest of their lives.

[Oilwellian]

107. My son's death is directly related to a shit insurance policy

If they had allowed further testing to discover his heart disease found during autopsy, rather than settling for an EKG and diagnosed heart murmur, he would be alive today.

Had he told me, I would have insisted he have further testing and paid for them personally. His condition could have been treated and he'd still be providing for his beautiful family.

An example of the hidden costs to society for piss-poor health insurance? It's not just the cost of a LIFE. My son's wife will now collect SSDI payments for their children, until they reach the age of 18.

It would have been far cheaper to have just properly diagnosed him and treat his heart condition.

Like Hillary said in that video, and I paraphrase, "If you aren't for universal health care, then you aren't a real progressive."

So what happened, Hillary?

[closeupready]

110. So sorry for your loss.

[Warren Stupidity]

201. how many of us have had to work while seriously ill in order to keep our insurance?

we have the developed world's worst health care system. Oh by the stats it is only in the middle, not the bottom. By per capita costs it is dead last, and by the effect it has on the lives of our people it is a laughing stock/horror show. Europeans who need medical care while here routinely flee back home if they can in order to avoid our system.

[firebrand80]

50. As a Hillary supporter, I don't like this

The argument she should make is that Bernie won't offer enough specifics on taxing the middle class to pay for it, and use it as part of a larger narrative about him being too vague and pie-in-the-sky about his proposals, and not a viable GE Candidate. It was an argument she used with some success against Obama (although it was too little, too late). A secondary argument could be the risk of turning over control to GOP Governors.

But attacking the idea of single payer itself is NOT a winning argument in a Democratic primary. Not only is it a losing argument, it allows Bernie to fight on favorable territory, and not have to respond to the other, potentially more effective arguments.

If she doesn't sharpen her attack by the debate, she's going to lose this round.

[JonLeibowitz]

57. Why aren't you objecting to the lie, not its political expediency?

There is more than winning or losing a round at stake-- it is about real issues and she is lying about her opponent's stand. That's a serious problem whether it is a winning or losing proposition.

[firebrand80]

64. I like to save my attacks for Republicans

I will share my opinion on strengths and weaknesses of candidates, who has the better argument, etc., but I don't find it useful to drag down a candidate that I may end up voting for.

[JonLeibowitz]

68. In other words you are fine with blatant lies in a Democratic primary if helps. Good2know..

[firebrand80]

72. I'm not ok with lies

There are enough people on DU and elsewhere that will call out Politicians for lies, inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and inconsistencies. Joining in that chorus with respect to Democratic candidates is not what I choose to use my DU account for.

You use your DU account as you see fit, and I'll do the same.

[ljm2002]

89. But Hillary is not saving her attacks for Republicans...

...in fact she is borrowing Republican lines of attack to use on her Democratic opponent in the primaries.

[dorkzilla]

83. Sad

Even for her supporters it is all about the “win” and nothing more. Shameful.

[thereismore]

102. Third Way Fresh Thinking. Wow are you sure you are a Democrat at all? nt

[Oilwellian]

108. I've been saying for years

the Third Way is not the Democratic way. It's a fucking THIRD way.

[thereismore]

109. It sure sounds like it. nt

[Rilgin]

118. So you dont like this but what more would it take?

A point on your post and a question.

The Clinton(s) attacks included some mention of Republican Governors taking over health care after Bernie eliminated Chips, Medicaid, Medicare and ACA policies. The only basis for this is a line somewhere in either Bernie literature or his past bill that the Expanded Federal System (medicare for all) would be administered by the States. You echo this as some appropriate attack. However, what is failed to mention is that Chips, Medicaid, and the ACA are already administered by the States. Medicaire is the only system actually administered by the federal government (although contracted out anyhow). So if your problem with health care is that States administer the federal programs, it becomes essential that we change our system not keep it.

Ultimately, there is no defense for the Clinton(s) attacks. You say it troubled you but you maintain the signature line. My guess is I could list a lot of other Clinton claims, attacks, positions, votes and each of them you would individually say "This troubles me." This at least indicates that you have cognitive dissonance that your chosen candidate could do something troubling like this. So the question is what would it take for you to move from being troubled to not supporting her? I realize that people get invested in their candidate and it is hard to devest since removing that support requires some self criticism from previously supporting a politician.

I somewhat respect your post because although trying to defend Clinton, I see some mixed thoughts. As an individual, my respect for Clinton (as well as some other prominent democrats) stopped with her War Vote but was confirmed by a multitude of other acts which proved that, as a politician, she is a product of naked ambition and her policies are corporate and status quo. I hope that you examine why her statements trouble you further rather than just live with the cognitive dissonance by postulating changes to her attacks that would make them more palatable to you. She did not take that path and has not taken such "fairer" paths numerous times before.

[firebrand80]

125. This current healthcare fight

is all window dressing as far as I'm concerned. We're having enough trouble beating back GOP efforts to dismantle the ACA, trying to go further than that to single payer isn't happening right now.

Our focus right now should be solidifying the gains made with the ACA. The longer we keep the GOP from dismantling it, the more politically perilous it because for them to try to repeal it. The longer we keep it going, the more we get the public to believe in the principle of universal healthcare. THEN we'll have the political momentum to pass single payer. I don't think we're there yet.

I think single payer is the future, but it's not the present. Hillary's ability to protect the status quo is what we need on this issue.

[Rilgin]

151. Hillary's ability to protect the status quo?

Other than her word that she is pragmatic or able to get things done, what metric are you using. This is not to say that I think you are wrong on the ACA. The ACA is actually similar to her plan in the 2008 election and is probably the end product for the health care system she desires. Not as a measure to protect gains but as the end result because it is a corporate profit driven system which comports with her default economic positions.

This is not to say that Bernie would give away any marginal gains of the ACA. He voted for it ultimately after improving it with amendments. He would not give it away for a non-system or for anything other than something better. Either of them as president would veto republican efforts to dismantle it and both would be powerless against an override of the veto if republicans gain more seats in congress.

However, this does not address the cognitive dissonance you must feel in comparing clinton votes and acts with her statements over the last 25 years and the non-progressive aspects of her political character.

[eridani]

196. He has plenty of specifics. They are all in his own single payer health care bill. n/t

[mother earth]

51. Which is why Hillary is DINO, she is no better than the GOP, she's one of them, only she

believes in climate change and wants guns regulated.

[cali]

59. Not to mention reproductive rights, voting rights, higher taxes on the very rich

[Spitfire of ATJ]

53. We need to stop listening to the tax grumps.

[boobooday]

56. Anybody who argues we can't have universal healthcare because it is too expensive is a complete ass

First of all, priorities.

Second: This is to say that some of our fellow citizens must be sacrificed, LITERALLY, to the gods of capitalism.

[Politicub]

58. Just don't take away my Obamacare

One of the reasons why I support Hillary is her pragmatism. We have the foundation on which to build a better system via Obamacare. I was able to start my own business without worrying about pre-existing conditions and the like.

While single-payer would be great, I think that it's a ways off and will require the dems be in charge of the executive and legislative branches of government. Until then, Obamacare works for me and my family.

So many Sanders' supporters have an all-or-nothing approach to most everything. If they don't get what they want, they bern people at the stake and take to online channels to harass people of good will. No thanks.

[laureloak]

60. Thank you for a sensible post.

I'm reading way too much fantasy from the BS crowd.

[corkhead]

69. very clever use of initials there

[Politicub]

70. I can't figure out Bernie's proposals

Other than ongoing anger. The threads about them devolve into incoherent rage about Hillary.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

84. Bernie's proposals are not hard to figure out at all....

Expand Medicare to everyone by dropping the age requirement.

If you want to pay extra for house calls that's fine. Just keep in mind that in France doctors do house calls for free.

Should I insert some Hillary bashing now to make you feel better?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

105. But didn't he want to make it every state's responsibility?

If so, he is being a bit reckless IMHO talking about putting healthcare in the hands of a majority of states with Republican governors, many of whom, until recently, weren't even willing to accept Medicaid expansion. This is to say nothing of the fact that they couldn't get SP off the ground in Sanders' own state of Vermont, which should have been fairly easy politically to do but I think that the sticker shock of the tax revenue needed to finance it was prohibitively exorbitant and the Governor nearly lost the last election over it. This is not to say that I don't support SP as an end goal but Hillary isn't necessarily wrong to criticize Sanders' past and/or current proposals. It IS a POLITICAL PRIMARY.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

111. That's another Hillary distortion....

As is the "even Vermont couldn't do it" nonsense as few single states could afford it alone. The pool is too small and the prices are national.

It takes ALL of us TOGETHER to care for ALL of us.

As for the "send it back to the states" they do that now with Medicare to grant local control but if the local government can't or won't do it than the Feds do it (I'm thinking North Dakota).

This isn't even something Democrats should be DEBATING anymore!

Republicans are snickering at this crap.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

113. This is NOTHING compared to what is going on in the Republican's circus tent

A lot of people around here (and some in the MSM) seem to be blowing this WAAAAAY out of proportion IMHO. As admirable a goal it may be, even if he is elected POTUS, Bernie isn't going to get SP or anything like it out of committee (if the Dems even have control of one).

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. People said that about "Obamacare" too.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

139. ACA (barely) got passed

by a Democratic-controlled Congress no less- and even then it was basically by the skin of its teeth due to the use of reconciliation. SP is going nowhere in Congress until we have more (progressive) Democrats controlling both chambers of Congress and a Democratic POTUS. It's not going anywhere as long as the Republicans control one or both chambers or can filibuster legislation to death in the Senate.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

142. Partly because it didn't go far enough.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

147. That's not my recollection

It barely passed because every single Republican voted against it and we didn't have a supermajority in the Senate at the time it was up for final vote, necessitating a simple majority of votes via reconciliation. Some Democrats (like Sanders) were surely disappointed that it didn't go far enough in the direction of SP (though the House and Senate tried to get a PO but that got blocked by Lieberman) but nearly every Democrat still voted for ACA, including Sanders AFAIK, because they knew it was going to help a lot of people nonetheless.

[Politicub]

166. I remember when the house passed it

I danced around my living room. It was a very good day.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

184. The Republican voted against their own additions....

The problem is too many idiots in Congress who honestly believe the nonsense that this is a center/right country.

Do you remember that survey that was done where members of congress thought their individual districts were much more conservative than they actually are?

The most popular game on the Beltway is "Kick The Hippie" and BOTH parties do it. It's time to play "Kick The Dittohead".

[Rilgin]

121. To see the extent of the lie in the attack

You mention Medicaire. Well Hillary and Chelsea also mentioned Chips, Medicaid, and the ACA. ALL OF THEM are administered by the States. If your point is you dont want state involvment, it becomes essential we change out system now since all of our major programs in the health care sector involve some level of State administration.

Any expansion of Medicare will not ignore the problem of State obstruction just like the ACA allows a federal exchange to take the place of a state exchange if they do not offer one. The relation between state and federal is likely to be similar to all other programs with joint jurisdiction (think environmental regulation). The federal goverment provides baseline protections for individual citizens, States are free to expand and offer citizens better benefits.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

122. Hillary supporters seem to feel everything she says is true and everyone else is lying.

[arcane1]

154. Under the control and oversight of the federal government.

Hillary supporters often "accidentally" omit that detail. I wonder why.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

156. SCOTUS made Medicaid expansion "optional" in the ACA

Who's to say the right-wingers won't file a lawsuit against this proposed law (possibly a 10th Amendment claim) and get the Courts to gut Bernie's law. They *almost* succeeded in gutting ACA subsidies in states that refused to set up their own exchanges.

[arcane1]

157. Who's to say they won't? That's a stupid reason to not even TRY! n/t

[Proud Liberal Dem]

161. Actually, I'm pretty sure that they will

You surely have noticed how they keep trying to tear down ACA every chance they get, right? They will spend tons of time and energy tearing down Bernie's health plan even worse. Not a reason not to try but there is still nothing wrong with HRC criticizing Bernie's plan. This is a political primary, remember.

[arcane1]

163. Lying about his plan is different than criticizing it.

Especially from a candidate who said "Democrats should be outraged" if a Dem criticizes another Dem over Single Payer.

[Politicub]

150. That's an idea

Not a proposal. A proposal to cover everyone with Medicare will take more than 2 sentences in a flippant email to explain.

Medicare itself allows use of third party insurers through part b premiums.

It's not as easy as you think. The legislation itself will need to be passed. Remember the Stupak amendment during the Obamacare debates? I do, and I wanted to throw a brick at the TV since this one rep could derail the whole ball of wax. The peculiarities with our system of legislation aren't going away no matter how much bluster Sanders spews.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

153. So we should just "cut it out"....

Great campaign slogan.

[Politicub]

165. Cut what out?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

186. Ask Hillary.

[Maedhros]

148. Blah, blah, blah.

"Incoherent rage."

/ignore.

[eridani]

197. What every other developed country has actually achieved = "fantasy"? n/t

[laureloak]

62. Your last paragraph is exactly how I've read that Bernie is

in the Senate. Nobody can get along with him if he doesn't get his way, just like Trump's tantrums.

[Politicub]

73. He looked like he was sitting on a tack at the SOTU

A lot of good has happened over Obama's term. Sanders had this forlorn look on his face for some reason.

[Maedhros]

149. Sanders = Trump?

The stupidity burns.

/ignore.

[rhett o rick]

145. Funny that. The next step to "build a better system" from the foundation of the ACA

is SINGLE F'n PAYER. But that would cut out the health insurance and drug companies, you know those that have been very thankful for her support.

If you call amassing a huge $50 million personal fortune from her wealthy friends, pragmatic then I would agree that she is.

IMO she is the opposite of pragmatic. She built her personal fortune on being opportunistic.

We need change from the corruption brought on by Citizens United and big money that some seem to worship.

[treestar]

203. True, if a Republican gets in the WH the ACA is history

and single payer further off than ever. The all or nothing approach people seem not to understand the pain they will cause.

[Politicub]

209. They would rather burn down the house than repair it

It's a naive way of thinking, but the only people they listen to are each other. Everything else is just noise.

[Yavin4]

61. You cannot have Single Payer without taxing EVERYONE to pay for it.

And that means having a national sales tax to pay for it. I understand Bernie's plan to replace paying premiums with higher payroll taxes, but that's insufficient. Employers have ways to dance around that tax.

Europe has sales taxes to pay for their social programs. it's not just soaking the rich.

[Armstead]

71. Anything is better than what we have

There are all kind of options and alternatives.

But echoing the GOP and demonizing those options to scare people into sticking with a bad system is, er, misguided.

[Politicub]

75. No, anything is not better than what we have

We have Obamacare on which to build. It's a miracle it passed. And it has been a lifesaver for many. Is it perfect? Far from it. But it is pretty damn awesome for me and millions of others.

[Rilgin]

176. ObamaCare is funded using TAX DOLLARS

Lets say that you want to build on Obamacare and make it better. That means increasing benefits and including more people which means MORE TAXES which is the basis of the Clinton hit on Single payer.

Now your turn, please explain what you possibly mean by building on the ACA that does not involve Taxes. Do you really mean doing nothing at all to improve the ACA which would mean that it is still funded by Taxes but has no increased taxes to pay for the improvements, just the increased tax burden from increases in health care costs and from insurance company manipulations.

[Recursion]

77. Well, no, that's obviously not true

Plenty of countries have healthcare systems that are much, much worse than the US's.

[Armstead]

87. Why are you so determnined to perpetuate a bad system?

There are many options that could create eitehr a public system that works better for everyone, or a mixed system that offers REAL choice and guarantees everyone affordable coverage.

Look healthcare is inherently inefficient, expensive and contrary to "market logic." It is about health,illness, accidents and death. Those atre random, unpredictable and are never controllable or "efficient" or "cost effective." A perfectly efficient or cheap model will never happen under any system.

But we don't have to be Republicans and perpetuate a rotten system that tosses the greedy corporate imperative to make a profit off the suffering of people on top of that.

[99Forever]

104. NAME THEM.

Or is just another weak sauce "some people say" post from you?

[Recursion]

120. Most of Latin America and South Asia

Lots of Eastern Europe and Africa. The world is not just the OECD, and we're much more like the global south demographically (big and young) than we are like the rest of the OECD.

[99Forever]

126. Ahhh I see....

...we have "better health care" than a bunch of 3rd world hell holes and we're the richest nation ln the planet.

Well fuck, what do us little people keep bitching about, huh?

What political party do you claim to be a member of again?

[Recursion]

127. The Democratic Party that a whole lot of this site seems to hold in contempt

You know, the one that actually represents a fairly broad coalition of Americans and viewpoints.

[99Forever]

129. Yet here you are sounding exactly like a Republican.

Care to explain that?

[Recursion]

131. Explanation: you make up stories about people who disagree with you

It's pretty common, particularly online.

[99Forever]

135. Yeah sure.

That's the ticket.

It's me using 3rd world health care to compare with the USA's.



Do you ever read the crap you post? It's straight out of the Karl Rove Handbook.

[Enthusiast]

179. Yooge Plus One!

[DFW]

78. Anything but a national sales tax

Last edited Thu Jan 14, 2016, 01:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I live in Europe, where most countries have it. In Germany, where I am, we are one of Europe's lowest at 19%. Some countries are at 23%.

There is a constant fight as to what should be exempted and what should not, plus VAT always turns out to be government heroin. Once addicted, the junkie needs more and more and more just to function. It hits the poor and lower income families hardest (obviously), and costs a fortune to administer. England instituted it in 1973 as a requirement to join the EU. It was 10% then. It's 20% now.

Plus there is one detail American advocates tend to overlook: the States of the USA already have their own State sales tax (or, at least the authority to levy it, for the few that don't). This is not the same as a state income tax, which is levied once a year and can be offset against the federal income tax. No one could possibly accumulate the receipts of a year to find the state sales tax paid and offset it against a national tax. Asking all merchants to double their paperwork for this would risk a retail revolt, as the small business owners and sole proprietorships would be hit hardest.

The alternative to double taxation, of course, is to do away with state sales taxes. But then it's the Federal Government who decides how to distribute the income derived, and the states have no say beyond their representatives in Congress. If Vermont or Wyoming cries that they are being starved out, who will listen to a state that has only one Congressman? A portion of Germany's VAT must be turned over to Brussels to finance the EU bureaucracy. The social programs are largely financed by other taxes, of which there are a great many. The VAT has been examined every which from here to Sunday, and the USA has so far decided against it--a wise move, as far as I can tell.

[anigbrowl]

187. Thanks for that contribution

I'm European and living in the US and I don't miss all the headaches about VAT, although I do miss having it automatically included in prices in stores so I don't have to calculate the tax on the contents of my grocery cart on the way to the register. I agree 100% that VAT not only ends up being very expensive for the poor, but that it becomes political kryptonite.

This is why I have kept saying that Bernie needs to offer up more detail on his plan. Extending Medicare to everyone is a great idea, I'm for it in principle, but the sums of money involved are massive, and Bernie seems to be just handwaving questions about this so far. Even though I agree with Bernie that single payer would be more economically efficient than what we have now there's a big empty space on the map between here and there.

[DFW]

188. I'd say that's an accurate assessment

Let income taxes rise, more on the top end, of course, but please, no VAT on top of local sales taxes. The farther away the federal government stays from that idea, the better! I also agree that the space needs to be filled in.

As an American living in Europe, I envy your tax status. Most European countries are very liberal about residence-based taxes. Where you live is where you pay taxes. In Germany, they want more than 50% from me (they think S-corp on-the-books income is real income and want to tax income I never received) plus the heavy US tax bill I get on income for the privilege of owning a US passport. It looks like my 2015 income tax will be an effective 75% unless I end up winning an argument or two, and with German bureaucrats who are always right, especially when they have no idea what they're talking about, it isn't easy.

[anigbrowl]

189. Ouch

Surely the US has tax treaties with the EU, such that you shouldn't be paying Uncle Sam on income that's already been taxed by the German government. I'm no tax lawyer though.

[DFW]

191. The double taxation treaty is only useful if honored by both sides

If the Germans decide they want to tax income already taxed, the only thing I can do about it is hire expensive tax lawyer/accountants over there, and even then, if they know the law better than the bureaucrats, and the bureaucrats resent it, I'm still screwed. It's very frustrating. The Germans are putting off final judgment by constantly demanding more documents from Dallas, then, when they get them, they say they don't understand them, and therefore want more documents. As I can't afford to put myself in the 75% bracket, since I don't exactly gross a million a year, and life is expensive in Germany, I am putting up a fight since my wife wants to continue to live at home. I will have to leave if I don't get a favorable ruling. I won't be able to afford to stay.

[eridani]

198. Rad his damned single payer bill! Google is your friend!

Although he should probably link to the bill on his website.

[anigbrowl]

211. I have

He hasn't confirmed whether that remains his current policy or not, nor am I clear on how he intends to get this through Congress. I can't help noticing that a lot of Bernie's bill don't have any cosponsors and then quietly die in committee. For someone who has been a legislator for so long, I am perplexed at his seeming inability to build coalitions that get results.

[eridani]

214. Building coalitions to get Republican results is a bug, not a feature n/t

We don't need any more successful assaults on the 99%.

[cali]

88. No it does not necessarily mean a national sales.tax. stop spreading misinformation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_healthcare

[Shadowflash]

65. Yup.

And I cannot vote for someone who thinks single payer is a bad idea. There just isn't a clothespin that big.

[Autumn]

66. Well this will win her votes

Lets see Hillary is campaigning against health care, so are the republicans. What a dilemma. Vote for a democrat against real health care or vote for a republican against real health care. Fuck that.

[freebrew]

79. Necessary more than ever, Right Now...

with the disgraceful actions taken by the gov't re: Flint,
who will be responsible for the future health problems of these citizens?

The same question needs to be asked for the 1st responders of any disaster.
The same needs to be asked for the victims of asbestos and many other gov't and/or corporate approved poisons
that many of us will be victims.
Bad watershed causes polution in underground wells. Many in the midwest will be(already have been) affected.

Who is going to pay for the corporations' malfeasance?

The U.S.A.,LLC. needs single payer. Yesterday!

[turbinetree]

81. And this why I will vote for Sanders....................

Chris Hayes interviewing Bernie Sanders 01/13/2016


Honk-------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

It is about getting a progressive U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and State and Local Legislatures



http://www.msnbc.com/all



March 28, 2008

[SoapBox]

82. She is now campaigning against a much better healthcare system?

Well what the fuck!

She keeps showing her true self at every turn...big money, big power, loves Wall Street and a War Hawk to boot.

Bernie...we need you so bad.

[historylovr]

90. K & R

[Rosa Luxemburg]

91. I'm VERY disappointed in HILLARY - the many faces of Hillary on HEALTHCARE

Healthcare is a right and unless you are in bed with the insurance companies Democrats should be pushing for Medicare for all. I think Hillary has dug herself a hole on this issue. This is a case of serial flip-flopping and serial lying. There's no excuse that 'Medicare for all' can't be done as she has said in the past that it could. It it can be done lowering the cost of healthcare in this country. Anyhow I am extremely disappointed in her.

[liberalnarb]

92. How hypocritical.

She championed the idea of universal healthcare during her husbands administration. She even thanked Bernie for being part of the fight. She's digging her own political grave with that move.

[Uponthegears]

93. Another

OP about Hillary policies has devolved into a collection of Hillary supporters launching ad hominem attacks on Bernie ("ooooooh, he's sooooo angry&quot instead of defending their preferred candidate's newly-found anti-single payer platform.

Shocker

For all of you who are supporting the new Hillary platform with comments like "it can't be done without middle class tax increases," let's take a stab at responding to see if ANY of you are actually willing to discuss that comment.

Even without raising taxes, any working class tax increases should be offset by working class families not having to pay for ACA insurance. Single payer health care has lower administrative costs, no costs to create profit. It is a cheaper way to provide health care. It doesn't require more revenue to provide a less-expensive product. EVEN IF IT DID COST MORE, dare I mention that there is $7 trillion + of new wealth created every year in this country that goes almost entirely into the hands of the .1% and IS NOT TAXED AT ALL. It is called unrealized capital gains. Hillary has a tax plan that will add $50 million/year? Tax unrealized capital gains at even the current capital gains rate and you're talking 17 TIMES more revenue every year and enough revenue to offset the (what should be non-existent) additional costs of single payer many times over AND not add one cent of taxes to anyone who draws a paycheck. I'm not saying that's the way to go, BUT saying it "can't be funded without hurting the working class" is repeating 100% REPUBLICAN RIGHT WING HOGWASH.

So what GOP talking point are you going to use next to attack Bernie . . . you won't get to keep your doctor?

[Duval]

95. K&R!

Sigh! It just gets worse.

[pnwmom]

96. She didn't say it had no merits and advantages, as you know. She said:

"They want to essentially create a circumstance in which they try to lead voters to believe they can implement single-payer health care at no burden to anyone and everyone would be better off."

Medicare right now requires participants to pay 20%, even of hospital costs. I haven't seen him say that his plan would cover that 20%, which Medicare people now cover with private insurance. Not everyone could afford that, and so we'd need to retain Medicaid, which would drive up the government costs significantly.

And as we know, many Governors refused to approve Medicaid expansion in their states. This further extension would be even harder to get through.

[Rilgin]

178. Repeating a lie is no defense

You gave an accurate quote of Hillary. It is a lie that Bernie, his advisors, his campaign, single payer advocates "want to ... lead voters to believe ... no burden etc etc".

Yesterday I saw Bernie discussing that Single Payer will not be something he could implement on the first day in office, it would be something he would fight for. Every discussion of Single Payer acknowledges that it essentially involves funding by trading tax payments for premium payments and the claim is this will be a cheaper, better and more universal system ... not that it would be costless (no burden etc). It is an absolute lie of the Hillary Campaign to claim he is doing anything more than fighting for a better system or that Bernie is leaving the impression it will be easy or costless.

Our health care system currently uses about 17% of our GDP. We need to change that and Hillary used to at least give lip service to the need to change that.

For yourself, you should not use Hillary's words as a claim about Bernie's beliefs or intentions. If you want to say Hillary's words were not a lie, find a quote of Bernie's that supports a claim that he is trying to mislead voters about the difficulty or change involved in such a transition from a premium system to a tax system for funding health care. You wont be able to because whenever he discusses it he acknowledges that taxes will increase but the net costs will go down and acknowledges that it wont be an easy fight nor is the fight guaranteed to succeed.

This means like numerous attacks by Clinton over the years, they are lies and opportunistic and rather disgusting from a candidate claiming to be a progressive champion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

185. Hillary hss gone classic negative

It is much the same as her ridiculous comment that Sanders is a fairly reliable supporter of the gun lobby when the NRA rated him D-. Accuracy is out the window, what she is looking for is something that she can twist to her advantage. She can make a case for herself and her positions by sticking to the facts. This is an admission though that she has failed to make a winning case by sticking to the facts.

[TIME TO PANIC]

98. K & R !

[pa28]

100. Bernie's presence in this campaign is exposing the rot in our party.

Today it's the fiction that third way politicians actually want single payer but are merely being pragmatic and incrementalist by taking a small piece of the loaf.

Now the truth is forced out.

[azmom]

103. K&R

[dreamnightwind]

117. She'll try to trick people by favoring a "universal health care plan"

Many people miss the distinction between universal coverage and single payer, the primary distinction being that the proposed universal systems leave the health insurance industry in place, when they are the main problem.

Her spokesman on this issue, Howard Dean, apparently is now a paid lobbyist for the pharma and health insurance industries:

Howard Dean, Now Employed by Health-Care LOBBY FIRM, Opposes Bernie Sanders on Single-Payer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511006264

[JoeyT]

119. It's pretty funny to see all the people

that defended the ACA by insisting they supported single payer too, but the ACA was a stepping stone to that do an about-face and insist they never supported single payer at all.

Turns out they'll support whatever they're told to support.

[Tom Rinaldo]

128. Yes. It's rubber meets the road time

The convenient "incremental progress" facade has fallen. Backing incrementalism as it turns out is not proving to be a winning ticket out of the Democratic primaries, so now the heavy artillery come out against status quo threatening fundamental change - the fear cards are being played.

[Ferd Berfel]

124. How can someone support her?

You have to be willing to stick your head in the sand (or somewhere dark)

Politifact Confirms Bernie Sanders’ Healthcare Plan Will SAVE Every American Family $1,200/Year
http://usuncut.com/news/bernie-sanders-healthcare-plan-would-save-the-average-american-family-1200/

The nation’s leading political fact-checker has debunked Hillary Clinton’s recent attacks on Bernie Sanders’ healthcare plan.


and now....the denial and shoot the messenger begins...........

[in_cog_ni_to]

130. She's a LIAR.

Why anyone calling themselves a Democrat is voting for her, knowing she's a LIAR and -

Supports FRACKING

Supports WALL ST. THIEVES who stole $12.8 TRILLION of OUR tax dollars in a bailout for THEIR ILLEGAL BEHAVIORS

Voted for the IWR

Supports war, war, war and more war - Syria, Libya & Iran

Takes money from Prisons for Profits

Voted for the Biden Bankruptcy Bill which disproportionately affects women and children

Supported her husband's Welfare Reform which disproportionately affects women and children

Supports the TPP

Supports the XL PIPELINE

Supported NAFTA which caused 60,000 U.S. Factories to close, losing MILLIONS of jobs

She's AGAINST Single-Payer/Medicare-for-All insurance (SHAME ON HER!)

Supports GMOs and MONSANTO

She's AGAINST closing Corporate Tax Loopholes

Her TOP DONORS ARE HUGE CORRUPT WALL ST. THUGS and HUGE CORRUPT CORPORATIONS

THAT is NOT a LIBERAL/DEMOCRAT! NOT-EVEN -CLOSE!

[BeanMusical]

133. Kick and R

[EndElectoral]

134. Isn't Medicare Single Payer?

[Recursion]

136. Eh. Medicare has (large) copays and deductibles, plus premiums

It's much more like single payer than, say, private insurance, but Medicare itself is pretty close to the French model (gov't pays 70% of costs, patient pays the rest).

[Tom Rinaldo]

137. I will never forget (or really forgive either)...

...how the Democratic Party failed to fully embrace the example of Medicare during the debates surrounding the development of the Affordable Care Act. Instead too many Democrats bent over backwards to argue that the AFC was built upon the foundation of our private insurance based health care system, while Republicans demonized any potential government role in our health care system, talking about how wasteful government spending is and how we were going to have government death panels. Very few leading Democratic voices pointed out the obvious, that Americans love government administered Medicare, and fight fiercely to protect it.

[arcane1]

152. Worse: She is LITERALLY DEFENDING health insurance companies.

She stands for nothing but what her top donors tell her to stand for.

[Betty Karlson]

158. After throwing the kitchen sink at him, only the gutter was left at her disposal. eom

[Ivan Kaputski]

172. Oligarchy contributing to her campaign is affecting this at all.

[Still In Wisconsin]

173. EVERYTHING basically comes down to a political calculation for Shillary. She's a Republican on this

issue now. She is ctually actively campaigning AGAINST universal health care. How can any Progressive possibly defend her on this.

[Enthusiast]

174. All Democrats, across the board, should have a goal of Medicare for All. Anything else

is just profiteering by the Medical Services Industry, the Insurance Industry and the Pharmaceutical Industry.

We should not support a single candidate that doesn't have the stated goal of enacting single payer.

It really is that simple.

[eridani]

192. Bill Clinton: universal health coverage saves money

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-healthcare-clinton-idUSTRE7566U520110607

Former President Bill Clinton said the United States could save more than $1 trillion a year by adopting any other advanced nation's healthcare system.

He also said there are important advances included in President Obama's healthcare reforms and urged that it be improved upon rather than repealed.

"Our healthcare system has gotten all out of whack," Clinton said in a speech on Tuesday at the Jefferies Global Healthcare Conference, stressing the need to bring inflation in healthcare costs back in line with economic inflation.

Clinton said Canada and the European countries that have universal health coverage for their citizens spend a smaller percentage of their gross domestic product on healthcare than the United States does.

"Germany and France, with what is considered the most effective systems in the world in terms of universal coverage and quality of treatment, they spend 10 percent. Canada spends 10.5 percent," Clinton said.

"The United States spends 17.2 percent without having universal coverage," Clinton said.

[merrily]

202. Shameful!

[olddots]

210. at this moment she is practicing what to say Sunday night .

Because she has nothing . NOTHING !

[slipslidingaway]

212. knr time for the Dems to stop hiding behind the scary Repubs, aka taking convenient shelter ...

always enjoyed your well thought out posts.

Thanks!

[riversedge]

215. This is not an attack on single-payer. It's a call for Sanders to reveal how he'd pay for his propos

Love these tweets and agree with both

Adam Smith ?@AdamSmith_USA 9h9 hours ago

Both Hillary Clinton & Bernie Sanders support the goal of universal healthcare but Bernie will not reveal his plan to pay for it. #ImWithHer
31 retweets 47 likes
Adam Smith ?@AdamSmith_USA 7h7 hours ago

This is not an attack on single-payer. It's a call for Sanders to reveal how he'd pay for his proposal. #ImWithHer