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[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Karl Rove is a toothache of a man./nt

[randys1]

34. Proof positive there is no god, that much is for sure.

[sufrommich]

2. Yeah,there's no doubt who they'd rather run against.nt

[Armstead]

72. Yeah because with Clinton, even if they lose they win

[Go Vols]

77. +1

[sufrommich]

79. And yet they're trying to stop her at the Primary stage,

before she makes it to the General election. Why?

[Armstead]

85. Because Rove would rather run against Bernie. But Rove is also the guy who....

totally embarrassed himself with confident predictions that Romney was going to win, and then totally embarrassed himself on election night by denying Obama won even after the jury was in.

[sufrommich]

90. American Crossroads isn't Rove and Rove alone.

In fact,his role is as an advisor to the group who's main backers are these guys:


According to Federal Election Commission, IRS reports, analysis by the independent Center for Responsive Politics and other sources, American Crossroads' major contributors have included:

Bob J. Perry, President of Perry Homes, Houston, Texas ($7 million)
B. Wayne Hughes, founder of Public Storage Inc ($2.3 million)
Trevor Rees-Jones, President and CEO of Chief Oil and Gas, ($2 million)
Robert Rowling, CEO of TRT Holdings, ($1 million)
Dixie Rice Agricultural Corporation ($1 million)
Southwest Louisiana Land ($1 million)
Jerry Perenchio Living Trust ($1 million)
American Financial Group, ($400,000)[15][16][17][18][19]


Rove is their mouthpiece.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Crossroads

[Skwmom]

3. Rove and Clinton - the unholy alliance. n/t

[Sheepshank]

5. I think that the article is pointing out a Bernie/Rove alliance nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

44. You're making an untrue statement. There's not a Sanders/Rove alliance. You must tell the truth.

Or you'll be called on it over and over and over.

[Armstead]

78. And that would be tiotal unadulterated bullshit

There are no two people who have less in common that Bernie and Karl.

The idea of an "alliance" is ridiculous.

[Sheepshank]

99. Yet you fail to address the post I was responding to

Your unaldulterated biases make DU suck.

[Armstead]

111. Hey, unadulterated biases is what makes DU go round

Like you don;t have any of those?

But okay, to be fair, the notion of either Clinton or Bernie being in an alliance with Rove is totally ridiculous.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. Did you not read the original post?

Rove is running anti-Hillary ads.

[libdem4life]

130. Which means he is stupid enough to not know that Bernie beats all Rs...mostly by double

digits. Not so much Hillary. Now we've got a new 12-th dimensional chess player it seems...but Rove? Who knew?

[mcar]

25. Umm

You may want to actually read the post.

[Agschmid]

26. They don't care. It's becoming clear.

[mcar]

29. Rove, the Daily Caller

Washington Times. It goes on and on.

[floriduck]

33. And her"3 percent" reference

can only be based on numbers of donations, not dollars. Just need to make that observation.

[emulatorloo]

91. Rove's running attack ads >against HRC. Disingenuous attack from the left

[HerbChestnut]

4. Well, he's right...

Not often you can say that about Karl Rove, but it's true in this case.

[Sheepshank]

9. And this is what DU has come to....complimenting and agreeing with Rove

Desperate Bernie supporters aligning with despicable low life's like Rove. You just did your entire team a bigger disservice than anything anyone could even have done in critiquing Bernie. Omfg...you really went there.

[HerbChestnut]

17. Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Hell, Adolf Hitler could walk down the road and say, "The sky is blue." And yep, the sky is in fact blue. The truth is the truth regardless of who it comes from.

[redstateblues]

22. Lie down with dogs and you'll get up with fleas

[HerbChestnut]

23. That's an insult to dogs

[MrWendel]

102. Seriously?

When has quoting Hitler or Nazis ever worked. Have Republicans taught you nothing?

[Sheepshank]

103. And you continue to defend and love on Rove. Sickening nt

[HerbChestnut]

104. Oh yeah I love him.

Wish we were snuggling right now.

[Sheepshank]

108. Figures.... No other reason for invoking him in the first place, then continue defending his ass

[emulatorloo]

92. Any port in a storm, eh?

To hell with Karl Rove.

[HerbChestnut]

95. The MO of a Hill Shill

Deflect all means of criticism regardless of where it comes from.

[emulatorloo]

97. Bernie supporter here, I will never embrace Karl Rove

[HerbChestnut]

101. I'm not embracing anybody

I'm just saying he's right in this case. Nothing wrong with acknowledging when someone you despise is correct on something.

[emulatorloo]

110. Rove's never "right". The disingenouness of Rove attacking from the left disgusts me

It is a blatant attempt to interfere with the Democratic primary. Fuck that.

[RandySF]

117. Because, believe it or not, the source matters.

[hrmjustin]

134. The wrong post got hidden.

[bettyellen]

135. Seriously! Got alert stalked last week- 4 alerts in five minutes. Two stuck.

[Kalidurga]

6. He can go away

F him and his ilk.

[TSIAS]

7. Dirty tricks

Shows why we need to get rid of SuperPacs.

[hrmjustin]

8. The gop wants to run against Sanders.

Time to get real and vote for Hillary.

Sanders can't win.

[HerbChestnut]

27. Polls disagree

[farleftlib]

37. I will be glad to accommodate them.

Bernie will crush whomever they nominate.

That is the lamest argument I've heard yet to vote for HRC, and that's saying something.

[Avalux]

10. Oh Please! Chelsea stuck her own foot in her mouth, it's on video.

It's all on video what Chelsea said, and what Hillary's said in her past; nice attempt to frame Chelsea as a victim and what she said untruth just because Rove is in the middle of it.

[sufrommich]

12. That doesn't change the fact that Rove is taking

advantage of it go promote Sanders.

[Avalux]

13. My point - it's not swiftboating, Rove ins't lying (this time).

I might even supposed that Rove is doing it to help Hillary, by garnering sympathy for Chelsea. Dems hate him.

[sufrommich]

15. Oh my God. OK then.

[Bobbie Jo]

32. The shit is getting deep up in here.

You have just witnessed the completion of the full circle.

You're right, the only possible response to this is:

"Oh my God. OK then"


Co-signed.

[ucrdem]

20. They've got other ads and they're not doing it to help Hillary:

American Crossroads: "Hillary's Bull Market"

What is it with Hillary lying about terrorists and videos?

Barack Obama attacks Hillary Clinton on Walmart

More: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn6M7EPsiL3cSVHGW8Gsr1g

.............

They all sound awfully familiar don't they?

[cascadiance]

41. Rove is anticipating discussions like this very thread happening...

… which is what he wants to have happen within our party, to have people react to his ads like this to try to provide incentives for us to nominate Hillary Clinton instead of Bernie in reality.

He's echoing the well founded criticisms Bernie has of Hillary's campaign latest attacks on Bernie, to promote the notions that her campaign is taking in this thread.

I think he knows that about the only campaign of either party that is getting hands off treatment from the media and other circumstances is Hillary's campaign. He's not introducing any real new issues that have been kept off the plate to criticize her with that would really cook her at this point if he were seriously trying to undermine her campaign versus Bernie. And his people know a lot of the issues going on behind the scenes.

Example? H-1B Visa expansion, which may be made worse by passage of TPP which is rumored to remove quotas on that program a few months from now. I'm sure that Rove knows about that program, and either because he wants to make sure that corporatist BS gets actually passed, or he doesn't want the same scrutiny to come to Hillary's campaign on her lack of any current stances on that issue since 2008, where she took the corporatist position on it supporting expansion of that program.

When would Rove do ads on her to attack her on that? He'd wait until after someone like Cruz or Trump wins the nomination, so that their campaign could skewer Hillary's campaign on that issue, which they wouldn't be able to do against Bernie then, with his campaign being the only one that wants to provide more rights and a path to citizenship instead of "indentured servant" status to all workers whether they are American or foreign workers, and to have no "bottom" to race to that the corporate owned candidates of both parties seem to want more.

In short, Rove knows that Hillary's campaign now has its gloves off and has the money and motivation to do his dirty work for him on Bernie. The only thing his organization needs to spend money on is to go after Hillary's campaign since Bernie's not going to do that for him the way Hillary is now towards Bernie.

[karynnj]

43. far more Rovian than that - he wants to reduce the effectiveness that Chelsea could have in the GE

Chelsea Clinton, who many of saw grown from a precocious 13 year old to a poised young woman was a major asset to not just her mother, but to any Democrat she would support. Most Democrats and many independents had a great deal of respect and affection for her. That was why it was a mistake that the Clinton campaign used her as an attack dog. If this were not Chelsea's idea, she deserved better from the campaign.

This is NOT swiftboating as it is in no way distorting what she said nor claiming she said or did anything she didn't. However, this is Rove taking advantage of a Clinton blunder. While the op suggests the ad is to push people against Clinton in the primary -- his bigger goal is likely to handicap a major Clinton asset, who almost certainly will have the role in the general election of defining HRC's softer, warmer side as a mother and grandmother. If the ad succeeds by making Chelsea herself unlikable or even less likable, it hurts that effort.

[ucrdem]

48. There's nothing rational about these ads. They're 100% gotcha

and the only message is the negative talking point at the end. But you're right about trying to destroy a candidate's strengths. Where have we seen that before? Oh yes, SBVT -- the original swiftboaters:

[karynnj]

51. Many things target a candidate's strengths, not all of them are swiftboating

Please tell me what lie is being made about Chelsea here. This in fact is closer to the ads that targeted Kerry as a flip flopper (windsurfer).

I would argue that this is trying to prevent HRC from overcoming one of her weaknesses. She is NOT seen as likable, warm or politically consistent on issues. This hurts on the first by tarnishing an asset who most effectively shows HRC as likable and warm.

[ucrdem]

53. You're already buying his spin: you called it "a Clinton blunder." And why on earth

would you want to defend Karl Rove on DU?

[karynnj]

59. I am NOT defending Rove -- I posted at the first posts of Chelsea's comments that it was

a bad idea. Here is what I said:

I am stunned HRC'S team asked her to do this. It is a waste of a very valuable resource. That said both she and her mom should have had the sense and grace to see this as something they should not do and not have any of her people do.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1001793

[ucrdem]

61. I think she did fine so we disagree. Yes, saying he's not swiftboating Chelsea is defending Rove. nt

[karynnj]

80. It is NOT swiftboating

It does suggest that Rove would prefer to not run against Clinton or if he has to to run against a weakened Clinton

[ucrdem]

82. Intercutting 2-second soundbytes from 2 different campaigns is pure swiftboating. nt

[karynnj]

100. NO IT ISN'T

NOT ALL ATTACKS ADS ARE SWIFTBOATING -- this is an attack ad. You can argue that both clips don't tell the whole story. This is far more at the level of the wind surfing ad. It argued that a Senator, who was compared with most of his peers pretty consistent over a 2 decade Senate career was someone who changed his opinion with the wind.

While obviously not a complete honest picture and some examples a bit sketchy that ad was not anywhere near swiftboating and no one called it that. It was a tough ad to answer - like the Clinton one is - but it was not equivalent to attacking what JK did in Vietnam.

This is getting completely unproductive. I suggest that it is likely that as the campaign enters a critical phase, you are over reacting to anything that is said that suggests that Clinton, her daughter and the campaign do not walk on water.

[ucrdem]

105. Oh please. The ad is cut to make it look like Hillary is rebuking Chelsea. It's disgusting. Here:

Clever. Not.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

122. UCRDEM IS MAKING AN UNTRUE STATEMENT. THE OTHER POSTER ISN'T DEFENDING ROVE.

Dishonesty will be called out at every occasion.

[ucrdem]

123. How did this work out for you last time you tried it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=958566

[DisgustipatedinCA]

46. Chelsea needs to have a better relationship with the truth...she fucked up by giving Rove ammunition

[ucrdem]

56. There's nothing wrong with what Chelsea said. You may disagree but Rove is swiftboating her. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

64. Chelsea lied about my candidate, and there's most certainly something wrong for that.

The Clintons are paying the price for this, and they're responsible for fixing their own fuckup.

[ucrdem]

66. So you don't see anything wrong with Rove's ad. Okay then. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

69. I don't give a fuck about Karl Rove. I suggest your candidate change her ways if she'd like to

present less of an attack surface for Rove.

By the way, you're among the very last people on earth who get to speak for me. You suck at it too.

[Avalux]

128. She f*cking lied! Why can't you admit that? n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

94. Lying carries a cost. You'll understand this in due course.

[Avalux]

124. Yes it does, Chelsea probably realizes that now. Rove is capitalizing on her error. n/t

[ucrdem]

14. We can disagree about Chelsea's remarks but the point is that Rove is helping Bernie

by crapping on Chelsea, which is vile.

[Avalux]

16. See post #13. n/t

[Agschmid]

28. Many of us view DU on mobile and have no way to determine which post is post #13.

I wish people would remember this because when your argument is "see post 13"... Those of us on mobile, don't.

[ucrdem]

36. It's this one: "it's not swiftboating, Rove ins't lying (this time)"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1025705

....

Answer: The clips may be real but the ad is definitely swiftboating.

[Agschmid]

39. Thanks.

[RandySF]

96. There sure are a lot of Republicans on DU

[Avalux]

126. Dude - you're hilarious! I've been called a lot of things, never a Republican.

[hrmjustin]

18. DUers agreeing with Rove to take Hillary down.

Disgraceful and very telling.

[oasis]

21. Being a DUer doesn't make one a Democrat.

sadly

[Agschmid]

42. Yup. It certainly isn't an echo chamber for everyone.

[randys1]

31. But not surprising. Disgusting as hell, of course, but not AT ALL surprising

[Armstead]

89. Tell me honestly...

You love to criticize Sanders supporters for criticizing and potentially weakening Clinton in the general election.

Listening to Hillary and her supporters, do you honestly think she is trying to make it easy for Bernie to get support in the General if HE were to win the nomination?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

120. PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THE CLAIM YOU HAVE AGREED WITH.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

114. I don't see this, and I don't believe you. Please provide proof.

[Avalux]

127. Not agreeing. Merely pointing out that Chelsea lied, and he's using it, whatever his motive. n/t

[JRLeft]

19. Republicans do not believe Bernie will win, the are running the GE

against Hillary.

[stevenleser]

86. Correct. They don't believe we are stupid enough to nominate Bernie. They hope we might but

they don't think we will.

[NCTraveler]

24. There were deals made for Sanders vote last week on Pauls legislation.

You don't just flip and start supporting Tea Party legislation after opposing it in the past. At least I would hope not.

[leftofcool]

30. Yep, right after Bernie sides with the tea party!

[hobbit709]

35. What a pitiful attempt to swiftboat Bernie.

[ucrdem]

38. .

[mcar]

52. OK then

[Attorney in Texas]

40. TYPO! FIXED IT FOR YOU - Chelsea comes to Iowa to help Karl Rove -- by swiftboating Bernie

[Vinca]

47. Rove must not be keeping up with the polls.

Bernie does better against the clown car occupants than Hillary. So . . . thanks, Turd Blossom!

[karynnj]

49. Shame on you for calling this swiftboating

Swiftboating became a word to define an unconscionable smear campaign based on lies about a 27 year old's sacrifices for his country. Your comment is disgusting because:

1) There is no lie used against Chelsea -- all that is used is what she actually did say. It is not even out of context.

2) If the clip is seen as negative, it is because the viewer dislikes what Chelsea actually said.

3) Swiftboating does not mean an attack ad or even a negative attack. It used politically motivated statements about actions taken over 30 years before - that completely contradicted the official Navy record - and a biased media, rather then asking them for proof, demanded that Kerry prove each and every lie incorrect - and as he did, it left the impression that there were many questions out there -- while the official record was ignored.

[ucrdem]

50. It's textbook swiftboating and uses out-of-context video clips in exactly the same way:

Turn a candidate's strengths into liabilities and raise doubts about their truthfulness: where have we seen that before? Oh yes:

And seriously, why are you defending Karl Rove?

[karynnj]

55. That ad starts midway in a JK statement to ignore that he was recounting what others said -

as the committee had asked of him. Not to mention, although the same group did this ad, this was not even what was called swiftboating. Had they addressed JUST JK's protesting -- there would be no issue and he was very prepared to address that.

They challenged his actual service record arguing he did not deserve any of his medals and made many sickening charges. Not to mention, they dealt with things that were 30 years old that people could not have personal knowledge about.

Chelsea's comments are not being distorted - she fully intended to make the point she is seen making -- and HRC made exactly the same point a few days earlier. She even personalized it for Iowa - asking if they wanted the Iowa governor controlling their health care coverage.

[ucrdem]

57. "Chelsea's comments are not being distorted"? Please tell me that is sarcasm.

[Live and Learn]

54. And now some Hillary supporters are attempting to use Rove to 'swiftboat' Bernie. Interesting. nt

[ucrdem]

58. Sorry, it's what Rove does. Bernie should have denounced it last night. He didn't. nt

[Live and Learn]

60. Really? When was he asked about it? Oh right, he wasn't.

Are you suggesting he simply take over the debate and make statements on his own?

Why would Bernie waste any time on Rove anyway? I am surprised you are pushing Rove's meme. i would have never known about it if it wasn't for some here kicking it.

And Hillary did use it to her advantage last night. Perhaps Rove did it just so Hillary could use it. That would be a Rovian tactic!

[ucrdem]

62. Hillary brought it up. Did he take the opportunity to disavow any connection to Rove? No. nt

[Live and Learn]

65. Already answered. Hillary didn't mention Bernie so he wouldn't be given an opportunity to respond.

You do know how the debates work don't you?

I sure wouldn't put it past Rove to have done it in an attempt to help Hillary. It won't work. Nobody cares about Rove!

[ucrdem]

67. Bernie had no trouble responding when and wherever he felt like it. Did you watch the debate?

[Live and Learn]

71. Yes, I did. Hillary made one simple reference to the Rove ad in the middle of a long spiel.

The ad wasn't the just of her spiel and Bernie wasn't mentioned.

Once again, why would Bernie bring up Rove? The Rove ad doesn't mention Bernie either.

Are you suggesting Hillary needs Bernie to come rescue her from every negative ad? Hillary is a big girl. She can take care of herself.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

118. The Clintons are responsible for their own fuckups and lies. What does this have to do with Sanders?

I support the non-liar. It's so easy, you should give it a try sometime.

[EdwardBernays]

63. This is just the beginning

wait until all the Monica adds start coming out...

[sufrommich]

68. I think it's interesting that Sanders supporters

are ignoring the elephant in the room. Why would Rove be trying to stop her from winning the primary?

[EdwardBernays]

75. Because super genius Karl Rove

thinks Sanders might be easier to beat, but we all know how crap he is at picking candidates and predicting results...

Basically, do the opposite of whatever Rove says and you'll win...

[RandySF]

98. They don't have ads on Jane Sanders in the can?

They surely do.

[LWolf]

70. What unadulterated bullshit.

Whatever Karl Rove does, his motivation is not to "help" Sanders.

Sanders doesn't need his "help."

[sufrommich]

73. His motivation is to stop Hillary before she wins

the primary,not the general election,the primary. Why would that be?

[LWolf]

84. I can think of several reasons.

None of them have anything to do with "helping" Sanders.

[ucrdem]

74. Sanders had an opportunity to denounce it and disavow any connection to Rove last night.

He didn't.

[Autumn]

83. Bernie has stood up and defended Hillary too damn many times. She wants to play the game

she needs to step up and handle things like that on her own. She sure as hell wouldn't put herself out to defend Bernie.

[LWolf]

87. Did he announce

any connection to Rove?

I don't think so.

And anyone who thinks Sanders' campaign has a connection to Karl Rove is as batshit crazy as the right-wing fascists on the other side.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

115. Damn right! Don't let their fucking lies go by without challenge.

Make them own those lies.

[Autumn]

76. Hillary should have been able to predict something like this would happen. Rove will use anything he

can to go after a Clinton, especially one who sticks their foot in their mouth. Putting her daughter out there ill prepared to discuss issues she has no clue about shows a stunning lack of judgment. Hillary above all should know exactly how Rove and the republicans operate. I have grown so sick of defending Clinton's from things like that . I no longer bother, they made their bed let them lay in it . I'm not surprised at all that Hillary supporters like you will smear a good and decent man who has stood up for Hillary on the public stage so many times. Disgraceful.

[liberal N proud]

81. If karl Rove is helping Bernie, then I don't want any part of what he is preaching.

If Bernie is using Karl Rove to win, then he is in the pig trough right along with Rove.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

88. Sanders is NOT using Rove to win. What would lead you to believe such a thing?

[Bradical79]

109. Yeah, I don't believe you

I'm not buying that you actually believe Bernie Sanders is somehow working with Karl Rove. Maybe you could give real policy reasons you don't like Bernie Sanders rather than make such false inferences.

[Bradical79]

106. You don't seem to understand what swiftboating is

Swiftboating isn't some catch all term for an attack ad. And it's hardly Bernie's fault that Hillary and Chelsea Clinton gave Rove the ammunition to go after them. This is a 100% self inflicted problem on their part. It's pretty clear you are intentionally and dishonestly trying to create a false narrative of Bernie Sanders and Rove's interests aligning somehow.

About Rove's involvement in this ad, my guess is either:

1. He thinks Bernie has no shot at winning the primary, so he is starting attacks on Clinton early since he already assumes she will be the Republican's opponent in the general.

or

2. He wants to help Bernie win the nomination because he feels he will be the easier candidate to defeat. I think some have too much faith in how effective socialist scare mongering will be in 2016.

Thinking Rove is actually a fan of Bernie would be pretty idiotic.

[ucrdem]

107. Swiftboating is making it look like Hillary is calling Chelsea a bad Democrat. Watch the ad:

[Bradical79]

119. Yes, I watched the ad

It's not swift boating. Making Hillary Clinton look bad is not swift-boating. That really cheapens the vile swift-boating campaign waged against John Kerry. Also, it really makes Chelsea Clinton look like a bad Democrat rather than Hillary when just using those clips/images.

It's not falsely showing Chelsea saying anything bad about Hilary. Yes, it is an example that made Chelsea look bad and reflects negatively on the campaign since Chelsea was campaigning for her mother, but it's not like some false narrative was created with clever editing. It's probably the least amount of effort any of Rove's people have ever had to put into a political ad since it's just showing two things that actually occurred in a straightforward manner.

I'm not even sure it's that effective, as the one looking like a "bad Democrat" as you put it, is Chelsea who is not running for office. It shows Clinton saying something I strongly agreed with when she said it, and then Chelsea being dishonest. It's not even that effective imo, since it doesn't show Hillary Clinton herself attacking universal health care.

[ucrdem]

121. "it really makes Chelsea Clinton look like a bad Democrat" = swiftboating.

Basically it's turning a candidate's strength into a liability -- like Kerry's Band of Brothers, a staple of his senate campaigns, who were twisted around into SBVT and never heard from again.

[Bradical79]

129. It's Chelsea turning herself into a liability

Not swift-boating in the least.

[ucrdem]

131. Chelsea made a perfectly sound case for keeping the ACA intact

and so did Hillary last night. Paul Krugman agrees:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511026563

[Bradical79]

132. She went in front of people and was deliberately dishonest -nt

[silenttigersong]

112. No

Hes there to roll in the mud with David Brock.Bushs Brain,maybe on loan from the Bushs,since Hillary has given some shout outs for Bush the second.

[Jarqui]

113. And so it starts

I'll bet the GOP have 100 of these in the can already. And from the above, Hillary is still feeding them material.

Better get used to it - particularly if she wins the nomination.

The difference between this and a bunch of the stuff that had on Obama is there is more substance here so it sticks and damages more.

[SDJay]

116. That Scumbag

Should be careful what he and his cronies wish for. I'm sure they'd rather run against 'the Socialist' but let's take a look at how Hot Karl did with hundreds of millions of dollars of other people's money in 2012. The guy is past his prime, so whether he chooses to slime Hillary or Bernie, IMO that's good for the good guys who want to keep the crazies out of the White House.

[ancianita]

125. I'd have my campaign do an ad rejecting any Crossroads support and then drive their asses out.

I hope Bernie isn't ambushed by this bullshit.

[silenttigersong]

133. And after debate Clinton supporter...