It's kind of surreal to see all these threads on DU attacking Single Payer

[Quixote1818]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by one_voice (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

Did DU turn into Freerepublic over the last few weeks?

[m-lekktor]

1. and linking to right wing sources to do it even!

Steve Chapman from Reason Magazine/Chigaco Tribune for example! PLEASE!!!

[Vinca]

2. I know - it's like bizarro world around here.

It used to be single-payer was the holy grail. It still is in my book, but apparently I'm half a Commie to some.

[cui bono]

14. You're a whole commie to me!

I don't go half-ass.

.

[hifiguy]

45. The wind has been blowing in a different direction

for a few months. We're now in Opposite Land. Much of what is now being posted here was unimaginable even a year ago. You can probably figure out why.

[Plucketeer]

76. Just remember

There's talk afoot about a revolution. We likely have NO IDEA of how radical things might fall out. BUT..... you can make bet that the status quo folks are gonna fight tooth and nail to prevent changes - good OR bad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Can you please point to posters on this board

Can you please point to posters on this board who oppose access to quality medical care regardless of ability to pay?

Because I wish to create as much distance for myself from these posters as possible.

Thank you in advance.



Respectfully,
DSB

[JonLeibowitz]

24. It isn't so much opposition as it is that they think it is unachievable, so they oppose it now. n/t

[Bubzer]

33. Some have been acclimated to the notion that "good enough" is the best we can reasonably expect.

Phrases like "Perfect being the enemy of the good" and "throwing the baby out with the bath water", and "I like Bernie but..."
all serve to get us to accept mediocre at best politics. Even worse, it sets us up for the inevitable slippery slope into more corporatist ideals. I think a number of Hillary supporters fall into this group.

I also think a number of people have switched or are considering switching camps due to Bernie looking more viable everyday.

[hifiguy]

47. And they have adopted preemptive surrender

as a better strategy than even trying. THAT's sure to get something accomplished.

If you don't even TRY, you're SURE to accomplish nothing except the preservation of the lousy status quo.

[sulphurdunn]

71. They start negotiating for less than half of half a loaf,

and have conditioned their followers to be grateful for any crumbs that finally fall from the master's table. If anyone grumbles, they are told they were lucky to get what they got and to be pragmatic about it. That's the Third Way Democratic Party way.

[hifiguy]

74. Shit, they give away everything but the heel of the loaf

as their opening position, then pound their chests about managing to hold on to half the heel like they won the Superb Owl or something. Corrupt corporate tools.

[Deny and Shred]

75. The followers get crumbs

and their negotiators deposit speaking fees into personal accounts, as well as whatever campaign funds are left over once the race is over.

But starting from half a loaf isn't a bribe, it's totally pragmatic.

Taking money for their Congressional vote is REALITY.

Stop breeding unicorns you socialist!


On edit: Wine reveals truth - Ciao!

[PatrynXX]

70. some don't seem to understand

to get somewhere you have to go over the top to get somewhere, you set the goal higher so the second goal can be met. Hillary has set the goal too low. ie she's not Scotty (beam me up) could take days sir.

[Fla Dem]

54. No we don't oppose it, and applaud Bernie for advocating for it.

But to base a large part of his candidacy on Universal Health Care, as if all he has to do is get elected and whamo the next day we've got it is disingenuous. He will find he will have to take baby steps, just like Obama did until we have a progressive congress and senate. Which I hope I live to see the day.

[JonLeibowitz]

60. Bernie has never said it would be anything other than a fight. And would have to wait for

campaign finance and possibly redistricting. But he wants to fight to keep the dream alive. And we might just get it if we fight.

[Hotler]

81. The same that post it is unachievable are the same that post....

taking to the streeets by the tens or hundreds of thousands in mass protest will do nothing. We haven't even tried mass protest yet, small numbers yes, mass people no.

[Amimnoch]

91. Thank you!

Talk about the ultimate strawman - We recognize political reality therefore we are against single payer. How ridiculous.

Recognizing that the potential 115th congress, no matter how well it swings our way is going to be more conservative than the 110th congress that, after a LOT of debate.. and back and forth.. finally gave us the ACA. Hell, that congress wouldn't even go for the government Option that President Obama pushed for with everything he had... Yet somehow we're supposed to believe Sanders can do it???

Really, Sanders might as well be promising eternal life for everybody, world peace, and a new Tesla in every garage. He's either ignorant of political realities (I don't buy that), or he's really the archetypal politician and liar making promises he knows he can't make happen... What's next? baby kissing? Could he be more of a cliché?

[Cartoonist]

101. Whose straw man?

First you object to a straw man, then you erect one of your own.

[hueymahl]

98. See post 91. NT

[earthside]

4. The Clinton candidacy has made flip-floppers ...

... of a lot of formerly progressive Democrats.

The rightward drift of the nation and the Democratic Party will continue unless we advocate for the values of FDR, Truman ... Sanders.

[TheBlackAdder]

63. Paradigm Shift: Trump pulls RW towards fascism, anti-single payer pull Dems towards Reagan. nt

[floriduck]

5. That's how far Hillbies will go

to support her. It doesn't matter how many more people will get coverage at a lower net price. What matters is its not Hill's policy. And she's okay paying $3 less per hour for entry level jobs that many parents and single mothers have. But she wants the women's votes.

[Still In Wisconsin]

18. Exactly right- it's not about helping people it's about Hillary, Hillary, Hillary!

All they care about is that the empty pantsuit gets nominated and elected. Nothing else matters to the Hillbots.

[tazkcmo]

69. Listened to a small portion

I worked late last night so I missed the debates. I did listen to a small portion of it, the portion of Sec Clinton telling us what she wanted in referance to healthcare. "I want...", I want...", I want...", "I don't want...", etc. Wow. I don't give 2 turds what she wants. It's what the people want and need. To hell with her self entitled, 1%, dishonest, shady ass character.

[Karma13612]

93. Bingo! eom

[840high]

78. ...^ that

[hifiguy]

48. Bingo.

You win the intertubes for today. Got it in one sentence.

[Live and Learn]

6. To be fair, it is only a small although quite vocal group on DU.

Still, it is disheartening to see.

[Z_California]

83. Them and the likely Democratic nominee for President

So....

[Live and Learn]

85. Looking much more unlikely these days. nt

[Z_California]

87. Things are definitely looking up

Just trying to keep my feet on the ground.

[Live and Learn]

88. Being grounded is highly overrated. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

7. If the party line is "dogshit is yummy" guess what's for dinner?

[Uncle Joe]

12. Chihuahua crap appetizers,

a nice grilled Dalmatian Doo entree with a Spaniel Stool salad and Poodle poop for dessert.

[cui bono]

15. Thanks for dinner Uncle Joe!

.

[yuiyoshida]

43. Uncle Joe...

wow, I think Andrew Zimmern would turn down your feast, and Emeril Lagasse just got sick.
Martin Yan , just refused outright.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

46. Guy Fieri would eat it up!

"Diners, Drive-Ins and Doggie Poo"

[Uncle Joe]

50. yuiyoshida

Don't tell them about the Flaming Foxhound Feces house specialty then, that's probably too hot for their tastes.

[yuiyoshida]

52. Don't tell me you are wasting

a good brandy on this...it will break all of our hearts.

[Uncle Joe]

56. Of course not,

only the finest, Mad Dog 2020.

[yuiyoshida]

58. I really think

gasoline would have been better...

[Uncle Joe]

67. Considering global warming climate change

I don't care for using fossil fuels if I can help it.

Peace to you.

[hifiguy]

51. That sounds about right, Uncle Joe.

[Avalux]

8. The fickleness is rampant here lately. Some are loyal to a fault. n/t

[Ferd Berfel]

9. Agree. THere seems to be a lot of NO, WE CAN'T!

[99th_Monkey]

10. Hillary's dragging the Party & DU back 20 years. Single-payer? Too hard. No way. nt

[Wilms]

11. Well, I don't want to read toooooo much into it...

...but a top google search during the debate... Just look at #5.

[libdem4life]

13. I think many have had that thought...therein lies the new chasm in Democratic Party politics.

[TIME TO PANIC]

44. Damn!

All but # 4 are reasonable questions.

[Still In Wisconsin]

16. Pantsuitrepublic...

where alleged Democrats campaign against longstanding, bedrock Democratic principles.

[beam me up scottie]

17. I've seen several bragging about how great their insurance is now.

While people are dying for lack of adequate medical care in this country others are fighting change because hey, I've got mine, Jack.

[malokvale77]

57. This is why I can't tolerate them.

I haven't had health insurance since 1987. I have to wait 3 more years for medicare.

Most everyone I know is doing without healthcare. Yet our tax dollars are paying the subsidies for their wonderful insurance.

I'll let it go at that.

[senz]

99. That is the epitome of Republicanism and the antithesis of liberalism.

Those people may call themselves Democrats but they are Republicans at heart.

Liberals are famous for feeling guilty that others suffer. It's a largeness of heart. Bernie's got it in buckets, all the way through. Hillary tries to fake it but doesn't know that actions speak louder than words.

I hope Democrats will see it more and more clearly as we move through this primary.

[stillwaiting]

19. This is why we have to work our asses off to make sure Bernie beats Hillary.

Hillary will continue to persuade more and more Democrats that single payer is not an option in this country.

THAT is why she was paid so much fucking money from the insurance companies.

We have to beat her. Now.

It's a fucking disgrace that we are having to fight our own on this, and it is because of Hillary Clinton.

[orpupilofnature57]

22. + 1000

[orpupilofnature57]

20. Single Celled Amoebas are more discerning, It's about Who has worked for people more than themselves

Who has a history they don't have to Cherry pick, leaning on it in one instance , and running from it in another .

[dpatbrown]

21. My sentiments exactly!

Progressives have only been trying to get single payee system since FDR (appro. 75 yrs). How many more years must people, who need it, have to wait. Give me a break.

[MrWendel]

23. Oh for fuck sake...

In my own opinion...

Modify ACA till it becomes single payer = Good.

Repeal ACA and start over again with the bullshit you had to go through to get ACA in the first place for something like Single payer? = Bad

Why destroy the building when the foundation is really good and you can build on it?

[fbc]

26. False argument. Who said anything about repealing the ACA and starting over?

[jeff47]

29. Because the foundation isn't really good - it doesn't fit the new floorplan.

The ACA is what is necessary to have a privatized health insurance system that isn't too horrific. If you are not keeping the privatized system, then you have "the foundation" in the wrong places.

There's basically two ways forward: Keep the ACA and fight for single-payer on a state-by-state basis. Or replace the ACA with national single-payer.

If it's a national race, there's not much to talk about with the first strategy. So by default, discussion in a national race will focus around the second strategy.

But far more importantly, when our starting point of the negotiations with the Republicans is single-payer, we'll do a far better job protecting the ACA. Because the existing ACA becomes the compromise instead of compromising away bits and pieces of the ACA.

Just gotta take a look at what's happened to abortion around the country to see what would happen if we make "maintain the ACA" our starting point. A long, long, long list of compromises that gave away bits and pieces. Things like, "We're already making women wait 24 hours....72 hours is not that much more".

[kristopher]

89. +1

[greiner3]

31. Uhhh, if single payer becomes law;

Then there won't be a repeal of ObamaCare as Universal Medicare kicks in so much that it will become just another law on the books that isn't needed, sort of like the turn of the 20th century and cars had to pull over to the side of the road and turn off their cars if it came upon a horse going the other way.

[hifiguy]

53. Eeyup.

It will go the way of the buggy whip - superceded and unneeded.

[Kall]

92. I suspect they know this, internally

But supporting this Clinton campaign won't allow them to admit it.

[SoapBox]

25. It is bizzare...

Agree with your post.

[malthaussen]

27. I think that's a misrepresentation.

I haven't seen any "attacks" on single payer. This does not mean there are no such attacks, but I haven't seen them. What I have seen is people arguing that it is not do-able in the current political environment, or that the plan to do it is not sufficiently thought out, or that the plan does not go into detail. To characterize such arguments as "against single payer" seems to me to be as much a misrepresentation as to accuse Mr Sanders of wanting to do away with the ACA.

-- Mal

[nradisic]

28. Been on DU for 12 years. Never seen anything like it

I don't get people. Even if you support Hillary and in my view she's not a Progressive, why on earth would you be against single payer?
Pay and extra $1000 in taxes so you can save, what $5,000? $10,000? $15,000 on insurance premiums?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

30. ...

[malokvale77]

62. Lemmings is the perfect analogy. nt

[Babel_17]

32. "We've always be at war at war with Single Payer"

That kind of surreal?

[Feeling the Bern]

34. Hillbots have declared her empresses and anything that challenges the throne

must be expunged.

Most supported single payer, until HRC came out against it. Now, it's wrong.

Hillbots are still smarting from Obama beating them in 2008 and now they are looking at Bernie possibly doing the same eight years later.

[hifiguy]

59. Much truth there, FtB.

All truth, in fact.

[HuckleB]

35. I'm glad I haven't been around much. Ugh.

[bvf]

36. Marching orders.

Don't think about them, just follow them.

[Iggo]

37. If Clinton's agin' it, they're agin' it.

If she was fer it, they'd be fer it.

[senz]

103. There's just something nutty about it.

[JohnnyRingo]

38. I'd love Medicare for all. It would benefit me personally.

Does anyone know a way to implement it?
Waving a magic wand over Congress doesn't count as a plan to circumvent compromise.

Otherwise, claiming DU is anything like Free Republic is about the dumbest thing I've read all day. Stop it.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. If Bernie Sanders were for puppies we would have 10 threads an hour about "the puppy menance"

I'm sure the fact that certain names show up here at the same time all echoing identical talking points is a complete coincidence, though.

[George II]

40. I think I may have seen one, not "all these".

[murielm99]

73. I'm still waiting for someone to answer DSB, upthread.

I haven't seen any of that, either. This thread seems to be just one more excuse to bash Hillary.

[corkhead]

41. Must be from the same cast of characters in my ignore list because I am not seeing any of it.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

49. I'm at 107 Hillbots ignored. Life is great!

[Ned_Devine]

90. I took all of mine off last week. It didn't feel right having all of those people on a "list"

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

97. Once the primaries are decided, I'll take them off. Then its circle the wagon time.

But I'm just enjoying some stress relief right now.

[bowens43]

42. anything to maintain the status quo and keep power in the familys......

no room for new or progressive ideas in the modern Democratic party. Don't even try to do the right thing because it's too hard.....

[raindaddy]

61. We've transformed ourseleves into the moderate Republican party...

What could be better than Dick Nixon's old plan? We can't exclude the insurance industry from leeching off the middle class and poor can we? Even though every other advanced country seems to have done it with basic health care for all of their citizens....

[pa28]

64. I remember when ACA was sold as an incremental step toward single payer.

The very same sensible pragmatists who today attack Bernie's Medicare for all as 'scrapping Medicare and healthcare as we know it' told us that particular story once.

Turns out they don't like single payer and don't want it. Hey, at least the truth finally came out.

[DrewFlorida]

65. I was not impressed by Hilary attacking Bernie's desire for single payer healthcare!

Go Bernie!

I will support whichever candidate that wins the nomination, but my opinion of Hilary is becoming more and more negative with each insincere attack of Bernie.

[slumcamper]

66. This "newbie" is sick of this shit & basically DONE with DU. See ya. NT

[OrwellwasRight]

68. I guess if that what you feel is the position you have to take in order to defend

supporting Hillary, then that is what DU will look like from now on. Shameful that people don't feel they can support both.

[Tommy2Tone]

72. Most are attacking it because it's not going to happen.

It took a minor miracle to pass the ACA and that was with a Democratic controlled congress. I didn't even mention the cost. It's DOA and everyone knows it. Probably even Bernie but he continues to cheer on policy he can't make happen.

[TBF]

77. We are seeing the third way rip off the mask -

and we are also going to see it crash and burn. This will be the Clinton legacy.

SMH.

[ViseGrip]

79. For sure...

[Z_California]

80. The rightward drift of the party

is just crossing past another landmark.

What's next for the Democratic party? There must be some really progressive solutions for privatizing Social Security, "simplifying" the tax code, ending reverse racism in the form of Affirmative Action laws, and making trade even free-er too so all that growth can trickle down on us!!! (Wish this wasn't necessary: )

[LWolf]

82. DU has taught me

that too many Democrats are no more intellectually honest, and have less integrity on issues, than their counterparts in the Teapublican Party.

It's embarrassing, really.

[senz]

102. DU has been a horrible eye-opener for me

but that's not a bad thing.

[Utopian Leftist]

84. The shame is all on Hillary

for lying through her teeth about the cost of Single Payer.

Every legitimate estimate says that single payer will save us trillions over the next decade.

I can't believe I have to defend Single Payer healthcare on a liberal website.

[Fuddnik]

95. If the Queen of half measures isn't for it, they're against it.

It proves that there support is based more on (or lack of) personality, not policy.

[Hotler]

86. This post is disruptive and hurtful.....

[Adrahil]

94. I do have my concerns....

Mostly related to lack of any individual control over coverage.

With single payer, we will be at the mercy of whatever Congress decides. And you might get a situation similar to,what is happening in Britain with less and less funding for healthcare with a conservative government. And you can bet the conservatives would do everything in their power to exclude abortion and even contraceptive coverage.

Our county isn't ready.

[blackspade]

96. Apparently.

It's a pathetic angle of attack from corporatists.

[marmar]

100. Just like the hyper surveillance state, war and a host of other issues.....

..... there's a certain "moral flexibility" in some corners of DU.

[one_voice]

104. Locking..

doesn't meet SoP for GDP.

Statement of Purpose

A forum for general discussion of the Democratic presidential primaries. Disruptive meta-discussion is forbidden.