"It won't pass" is the absolute weakest argument against Sanders's health care plan.

[Recursion]

It's almost absurd to see it here. Of course it won't pass. Neither would Clinton's or O'Malley's.

I don't like Sanders's health care plan as it's outlined so far, but "it won't pass" is a nearly brain-dead attack on it.

I personally like O'Malley's plan best because it actually limits total provider reimbursements based on capitation (this is the only thing that can actually address our higher costs). But it also can't pass. Frankly it's probably less likely to pass than Sanders's, though like I said I personally consider it a better idea.

Clinton's plans also, since they involve revenue, must go through the House, and so can't pass.

For at least the next six years, we're really just electing a firewall that can veto GOP legislation. Any of the three will do that equally well. But I do think their plans say something about where their thought processes are, so they're useful to look at. Personally, I rank them in the order O'Malley, Sanders, Clinton. But again, that's just a way I can get some insight into how they look at the role of government. None of their plans can pass. Stop using that as an attack on Sanders's plan.

[jfern]

1. "No we can't"

No, we can't have FDR's plan for beating Nazi Germany
No, we can't have FDR's new deal
No, we can't have the Eisenhower Interstate system
No, we can't have Kennedy's plan for man walking on the moon
No, we can't have the Johnson's Great Society

No, we can't

[Recursion]

2. Correct: right now, we can't

The GOP stranglehold on the House is an actual thing. If FDR had faced that, we couldn't have had any of those things you mentioned either.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. Gerrymandering can be argued in the third branch.

[Recursion]

13. The last thing we want is a gerrmandering case to come to the current SCOTUS

My God... I can barely imagine the possible damage from that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. It wouldn't BE the Supreme Court....

Elections are supposed to be handled by the individual States all of which have laws regarding the subject.

BTW: This year is the CENSUS.

[Recursion]

19. The next census is 2020, and equal protection claims are open to Federal appeal (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. Okay, I saw 2016 but it's for the test in Texas only....

The DNC gave up the 50 state strategy after Dean.

As a result, some of the Republicans are running unopposed. This is where Bernie will be better than Hillary.

[yeoman6987]

3. It helped that FDR had veto proof Senate and house to work with

[scottie55]

4. And If Democrats Began Representing People Not Corporations

We could have it again.

But getting $$$$ from the rich is so much easier.

It is tougher with a few billionaires running our media.

[Art_from_Ark]

6. FDR had a lot of opposition from his own party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_coalition

[Recursion]

8. And Pete Seeger wrote a song calling FDR a JP Morgan loving fascist

FDR took a lot of shit from every side.

[jfern]

7. When FDR ran for President in 1932, the Republicans controlled the Senate

And they had a solid majority on the Supreme Court.
No we can't. No we can't.

[Recursion]

9. He ran in 1932 on cutting taxes and reducing government regulations

Hint hint.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. No, he ran in the wake of the crash of 29 and Hoover cracking down on the Bonus Army....

Nothing like WWI vets being rousted out of their shacks that are then set ablaze.

Back then everyone wanted prohibition repealed too. Now it's weed.

Thus began the end of a long stretch of right-wing capitalism and the beginning of a long stretch of socialist programs that are still popular today. Bernie wants to EXPAND them. The public wants it too.

We didn't just fix things up and build city halls and post offices and court houses and schools, we built things like public pools. We paid artists to paint murals.

Infrastructure is traditionally POPULAR in DC as politicians from BOTH parties "bring home the bacon". The Tea Party freaks over ANY spending and the Right has gotten so crazy that hiring ironworkers to build a bridge is seen as the same thing as hiring pilots to fly black helicopters. It's all "government" to them and it's EVIL.

[Recursion]

17. No, he actually campaigned on lowering taxes and removing "burdensome regulations"

The FDR of 1932 was not the FDR of 1936.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Wrong. He ran on NOTHING SPECIFIC. It was all "Happy Days Are Here Again"....

Hoover was so hated that all FDR had to do was not screw up.

[John Poet]

14. No We Can't

[img][/img]

[GoneFishin]

29. No, no podemos.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. Nazi Germany?

Going Godwin on the first post in this thread?

[Kalidurga]

5. It's not even an argument

It's waving a white flag at Republicans.

[Promethean]

10. Heres how I predict it will go down.

Sanders: Uses the bully pulpit of the presidency to constantly harp on the corruption politicians who block good policy. People become enraged that the corrupt pols refuse to actually do something to help people. Worst case scenario nothing gets done but everybody knows why because Sanders makes sure to announce why loudly and frequently. Best case corrupt pols lose the next election and things start to get done.

Clinton: Earns her bribes by letting more little giveaways pass by her desk quietly. The most egregious of backwards bits of BS the republicans throw gets vetoed. At the worst we get slowly further fucked by corruption. At the best we get the continuation of the corrupt status quo.

[SunSeeker]

15. Why didn't Sanders use the bully pulpit to support the tax to fund Vermont single payer?

He was all over radio and TV pushing the Vermont single payer law, talking about how the Vermont single payer law would be a "model" for the nation. Then, after the law was passed and it was time to pass taxes to fund it, Bernie clammed up, letting his old single payer allies twist in the wind and letting Vermont single payer die.

[Hoyt]

24. He knew it was going to be costly and people wouldn't understand taxes would replace premiums.

Best to be pragmatic at that point and step aside and like you said, "letting his old single payer allies twist in the win."

[firebrand80]

33. sounds suspiciously like a political calculation nt

[jeff47]

38. Because cowardice is a common trait among third-way-style Democrats

and that cowardice is so ingrained it can not be overcome by talking.

VT Democrats panicked after 2014. If Jesus himself had appeared at the statehouse and pushed for passage, they still would have abandoned the single-payer effort.

[SunSeeker]

42. Vermont is the most liberal state in the union. Sanders didn't even try to defend the tax.

Yet he was all over the bully pulpit, helping out so called "third-way-style Democrats" to pass the single payer law itself. He just bugged out when it came time for the really hard work of paying for it.

[jeff47]

44. Yet neither of those statements changed what I said.

The VT governor and many of the Democratic legislators are centrists. Remember when you guys made a big deal about them endorsing Clinton?

The VT governor abandoned the effort in the wake of the 2014 losses due to his fear. Fear and cowardice are such an important part of centrist Democrats that they will always act based on fear. No amount of "pushing" will help them find their spine.

[SunSeeker]

45. Those "centrist Democrats" are the ones who passed Vermont single payer in the first place.

When they were doing that, Sanders was all over it, talking up how great what they were doing was.

But when it came time pass a politically toxic tax on the middle class, Sander couldn't find his spine, nor a microphone. If Vermont Dems lost even Sanders, what hope did they have of passing the tax?

[jeff47]

46. Again, still doesn't change that the VT Democrats value fear over hope.

The only people claiming Sanders is a god-like figure who can magically pass anything are Clinton supporters. Sanders supporters are well aware that his proposals will not pass at this time.

The point is to lay out a vision and then build the political support to move it through. That will take many elections. Step 1 is to break the stranglehold of the fear-dominated Democrats who have run the party into the ground for the last 30 years.

Complaining that we have not accomplished step 20 when we have yet to take step 1 is stupid, and an obvious deflection. You should probably stop doing it if your goal is to actually advance something. If your goal is to whine, keep on trucking.

[SunSeeker]

47. What "hope" did they have if Sanders didn't support the tax?

Seems to me it was Sanders who was exhibiting the most fear. He had a safe seat, yet couldn't muster the guts to speak into a microphone to support the tax.

[jeff47]

50. Keep on trucking. (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. Bernie's plan is to make healthcare a RIGHT....

Providing it is where people get lost in the weeds.

[Squinch]

22. I don't think it is the weakest argument. It is one of the things that he says distinguishes

him from the other candidates.

The followers of other candidates understand the situation you describe, but the Bernie followers seem to think that the factors you list will magically disappear if Bernie is elected.

Given the particular combination of that candidate and the beliefs of his followers, it is worth pointing it out even though I think the reality you describe is falling on deaf ears.

[jeff47]

39. When all else fails, insist your opponents are morons.

The followers of other candidates understand the situation you describe, but the Bernie followers seem to think that the factors you list will magically disappear if Bernie is elected.

When all else fails, insist your opponents are morons.

[Hoyt]

23. "Can't get anywhere if you don't try" -- Sanders introduced a single payer bill in 2009, it died.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. If at first you don't succeed, give the fuck up. Amirite?

[SunSeeker]

48. That's what Sanders did in Vermont. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

51. When he was governor?

[SunSeeker]

54. Awww, poor powerless Bernie "Not My Job" Sanders.

He was all over the media talking up the Vermont single payer healthcare law, using the bully pulpit to help get it passed--even though he was Senator and not governor. But when it came to the politically toxic job of passing taxes to pay for Vermont's single payer law, Bernie suddenly became went AWOL on Vermont single payer. And now some of his supporters (!) are "defending" him by painting him as a powerless buck-passer, blaming the failure on others--anyone but Saint Bernie. Weak tea.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. Perhaps you ought to review how state governments work.

[SunSeeker]

56. Perhaps you ought to review how microphones work. nt

[pinebox]

60. Bernie has no say in state issues

You know this and honestly let's stop the spin. Bernie wasn't able to vote for it. Support is one thing but trying to hold Bernie accountable for VT passing single payer is complete spin.

[Hoyt]

57. Naw, one can act like the GOPers and keep debating the same old dead legislation rather than

trying to get something worthwhile passed.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. So your initial complain was "tried and failed" and your new complaint is "keeps trying".

I get it, you are opposed to single payer universal comprehensive health care. Fair enough, Clinton is your best candidate for that.

[Hoyt]

61. Nope, you are the one who wants to keep trying the same old thing that can't pass when

significant improvements have a much better chance.

[leftofcool]

26. That "plan" is DOA

[cantbeserious]

27. Any Argument Will Do With The Coronation In Jeopardy

eom

[Vattel]

28. Good post, but I respectfully disagree with certain parts of it.

Bernie knows that his healthcare plan can't pass the current Congress. That's why he says that we need a political revolution. If enough people are persuaded by some of his ideas, the people will demand that healthcare be treated as a right. And with all due respect to O'Malley, Sanders seems much more inspiring and so a better agent to move us in the direction of the needed political revolution.

So the next president needn't be a mere firewall even with respect to economic issues. And in terms of international relations, the President has much more power. Sanders foresight on the invasion of Iraq and Clinton's general faith in military force make me think that I would much rather have Sanders as CIC. (Frankly, I don't have much of a sense of how O'Malley would fare as CIC.)

[NCTraveler]

30. "Of course it won't pass."

I think reality is always a pretty good argument.

[dreamnightwind]

31. Reality sometimes changes when determined people demand that it changes

[NCTraveler]

32. And that is the conversation currently taking place.

I believe Clinton and her supporters are providing the strongest argument for how we get there.

[dreamnightwind]

34. They aren't even trying to get there

They want to leave the corporations in charge of health insurance in this country.

[NCTraveler]

35. I disagree.

We see a more incremental approach. We don't get behind the argument that if you keep putting something up for a vote, trying to force it, that it will pass. It's the thought process re pubs are currently using to get rid of the ACA. Not working well. You see, they think they have the same groundswell of support you do. There is more than one party in DC.

[dreamnightwind]

36. No, you aren't even out there making the case for it

you are fighting against it, in favor of the ACA and in favor of politicians who support the corporate model.

The change won't happen without gutsy unowned politicians loudly and persistently making the case to the American people for a single payer Medicare for all system, and trumpeting the stats of how much better other countries do than we do with cost and outcome. It won't happen immediately even then, but the only path to getting it is to elect people who are all about fighting for it, and to work for that reform even after electing them.

It's a long process, but supporting Hillary isnt any part of that process, supporting Hillary is supporting keeping the corporate insurance industry running our healthcare system. Not good enough.

[tk2kewl]

37. "too contentious" is also absurd, hello?

Let's see... what progressive policies aren't "contentious" in todays cartoon-ified politics?

Abortion?
Birth-control?
Taxing those with the means to pay?
Unemployment insurance?
Expanding SS?
Environmental regulation?
Corporate trade policy?
Energy policy?
Climate change?
War v peace?
Policing?

It's our job to be contentious in the face of bad ideas and oppression.
....

[jeff47]

41. You don't understand! We have to let the Republicans set what we are allowed to do!

If we actually propose plans that describe where we want to take the country, then people might vote for us. Then they'd actually want us to start implementing those plans!

We can't do that!

Instead, we need to let the Republicans absolutely control the Overton window. That way we can sit in a nice, comfortable minority where we can pretend we care about all this bullshit, but can't do anything about it. While still collecting our paychecks, and all sorts of speaking fees and other "donations".

You don't expect us to actually work FOR the rubes who vote for us, do you?!

Signed, way to many Democrats.

[DirkGently]

43. If you "don't have the votes"

The answer is not to shrug and crawl away. You get the votes by pushing the issue and never giving up.

Presidential candidates are in the business of talking about what we NEED, not just what they think they can get without sticking their necks out and fighting.

Obama talked endlessly about what we needed -- including a public option -- and then didn't get all of it. Some thought he fought hard enough; others thought he gave up quicker than he should have.

No one thought he was a fool, or somehow dangerously misguided, to talk about our goals and priorities first and deal with how far we could get toward them second.

[KingFlorez]

49. It kind of is

If Sanders became President, he would back down from everything he promised on day one, because that is how politics works. Everyone of these Sanders supporters would end up hating him viciously if he became President.

[Thenewire]

52. It is far worse than that...

Sanders has developed a cult of personality which is frankly very dangerous. We can clearly see it when one of his supporters adamantly defends him against any criticism. In fact on this very thread some of his supporters blame other 'democrats' for his failures.

[Zen Democrat]

53. I keep reminding people that we could have had single payer, or at least a public option

in 2009. Unfortunately, Obama kept poisoning the pot to appeal to Republicans because he desperately wanted a bipartisan bill. In the end, it was weakened and tortured and not one Republican voted for it.

[KittyWampus]

59. Reality is the weakest argument? LOL!