Bernie Sanders and the kibbutz conundrum

[Alfresco]

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Bernie-Sanders-and-the-kibbutz-conundrum-441490
Excerpt:
By YAKIR FELDMAN

[Renew Deal]

1. What year would that have been? Is it something he would remember? Why does it matter?

[Alfresco]

2. Google it. A lot of people are curious. Why the big secret?

[TheBlackAdder]

10. Isn't that a Trump line, "A lot of people are curious/want to know"? nt

[Alfresco]

12. Is it? You listen to Trump frequently?

[TheBlackAdder]

16. Unless a person's head is buried in the sand, one can't miss him. MSNBC, CNN, CBS, etc.

.


As someone who is a poli-sci continuing ed student, I observe everything. While being a staunch Dem, I do not have a closed and myopic eye, blinded by the favor of one Democratic candidate over another. It gives me a clarity of vision that is so lacking in many here, who remain so polarized, their posts are just drones from a cheerleader.


The questions are, How have you missed him, since he's on 24x7 on every channel, and why would you want to remain uninformed as to his actions?


.

[Alfresco]

27. I use my mute button or change channels. I do not care for his rhetoric.

[TheBlackAdder]

71. Ah, the informed voter. nt

[KittyWampus]

74. LOL! You have to listen to every speech Trump says to know who he is and what he stands for

and to whom he is appealing?

[TheBlackAdder]

75. LOL went out of date with MySpace. Not every one, but I don't go "La La La" when he's on TV. nt

[Renew Deal]

14. Why would they be curious?

What year would that have been? Is it something he would remember? Why does it matter?

[Alfresco]

15. See post # 6. I supplied links to several articles. Read them.

[NCTraveler]

18. Friends of the Earth Action...

Last edited Fri Jan 22, 2016, 09:57 AM - Edit history (1)

Have been spending large sums of dark money in their support of Sanders. They claim they are going to release the names of those who gave over $200 today. Interesting how much they are trying to hide.

Then there is his super pac started by Cary Lee Peterson. Might want to take a gander there. No one is vetting this guy. Amazing. I have been told on this very board that actions Sanders took in his thirties was "youthful indiscretion."

[Fawke Em]

44. Hardly dark money, but keep spreading your little meme.

How is releasing the names of donors hiding something?

Look, your candidate has been accused of approving arms sales to countries who donated to her foundation and you're worried about some peacenick environmental lovers?

[TCJ70]

3. I don't understand why this matters...

....and all the article says is that jews should be interested.

[Alfresco]

6. People are curious. It's a great mystery. :-)

My Quixotic Hunt for Bernie Sanders' Kibbutz
http://forward.com/news/320344/my-quixotic-hunt-for-bernie-sanders-kibbutz/

Israeli Facebook Campaign Seeks to Crack Mystery
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.682249

Mission Impossible? Finding Bernie Sanders' Kibbutz
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.674364

Israel Matzav: On which Kibbutz was Bernie Sanders
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2015/10/on-which-kibbutz-was-bernie-sanders.html

[baldguy]

31. That his official biography may be inaccurate certainly does matter.

If he's lied about this inconsequential thing, what else has he lied about?

[TM99]

45. Yet you support a candidate

who is a known liar?

Explain that, really I am waiting. This should be good.

[baldguy]

52. Your double standard is showing.

[TM99]

64. No son.

Your hypocrisy and desperation are showing.

You support a known liar. I support a man with an impeccable history of honesty.

I am waiting for your justifications as to why you support a liar. More deflection? Or will you answer?

[baldguy]

66. You first.

All politicians lie. That the supposed justification for the Clinton hatred shown here, right?. But Sanders has been a politician for 40 yrs. Far longer than Clinton has.

The fact that your hatred makes you incapable of focusing your attention for even a moment to scrutinize Sanders, and to acknowledge he's a human being, with all the same faults & foibles - just as Clinton is.

Yet Clinton is cast as a literal Hitler (using using the same old stale lies from the VRWC and the Arkansas Project), while the unending, saccharine hero worship of Sanders casts him as The Savior Of Humanity who's feces wafts the bouquet of lavender & roses over his flock.

Sorry, but shit is still shit. Even if it's from the Dear Leader.

[TM99]

72. No you first.

You threw up the gauntlet and you toss around Dear Leader invectives.

Prove that Sanders is a 40 year liar.

Clinton has lied about her name, her daughter at ground zero, being shot at by snipers in Bosnia, etc. The lies are documented. They are provable.

I don't know the Clintons. I hate their actions and behaviors but I could give two shits about the narcissists themselves.

And the Godwin award goes to baldguy! Congratulations for the red herring.

It must really suck the mental contortions you must go through the support her. The stress mental has lead you alone in this subthread with me to lies, attacks, insults, name calling of Sanders, invoking Hitler references, etc. I am truly sorry.

Thank the gods it will be over soon when she loses.

[LittleBlue]

68. Hillary Clinton admits to lying about sniper fire in Bosnia

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday she made a mistake when she claimed she had come under sniper fire during a trip to Bosnia in 1996 while she was first lady.

In a speech in Washington and in several interviews last week Clinton described how she and her daughter, Chelsea, ran for cover under hostile fire shortly after her plane landed in Tuzla, Bosnia.

Several news outlets disputed the claim and a video of the trip, showed Clinton walking from the plane, accompanied by her daughter. They were greeted by a young girl in a small ceremony on the tarmac and there was no sign of tension or any danger.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-clinton-idUSN2540811420080326

As you say, what else has she lied about? Curious that you seem to still support her despite an outlandish story, similar to the stories that got Brian Williams fired.

[Matt_in_STL]

4. Why stop at this question?

Where are his college transcripts and long form birth certificate? Can we get video of any rabbis with whom he came in contact to see if they made any remarks we don't agree with?

Or maybe we could focus on actual issues and be better than the other side.

[99Forever]

5. I LOVE the smell of Hillarian desperation in the morning.

It's like Spring arriving early.

[cali]

7. Pathetic attempts grow ever more pathetic

[Alfresco]

9. It's a simple question many people are asking.

[elias49]

29. Huh! You're the first I heard asking.

I wonder if he masturbated as a boy. Inquiring minds want to know!

Pathetic.

[Alfresco]

34. See post #6. If you hear me you have magical powers. :-)

[elias49]

35. Meh. See Post #29

What garbage.

[Alfresco]

25. Good morning 99. No desperation, I just like a good mystery. :-)

[99Forever]

32. Bullshit.

You fool no one.

Watching the wheels come off is delightful.

[snagglepuss]

8. OMG Just bloody hysterical. I can't believe its not the Onion.

I'm dying of laughter here.

[Alfresco]

37. If it was The Onion the title would be: Sanders Sleeper Mossad Agent, Trained while on Kibbutz. :-)

[MADem]

49. Obviously someone doesn't like you talking about this subject.

If it was The Onion the title would be: Sanders Sleeper Mossad Agent, Trained while on Kibbutz.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1045373

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Anti-Semitic: As if repeating right wing rumors about Bernie lying about his time in Israel wasn't bad enough now we're joking about him being in the Mossaud?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jan 22, 2016, 09:36 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post you alerted on does not "repeat any right wing rumors." It makes a little (and obvious-The Onion is a clue) joke about the fact that Sanders won't tell anyone anything about his kibbutz experience. Sanders could take the mystery out of this by answering the questions people have asked him. If you can't take a joke you've already lost--this was a mild one and it is funny. Since Jews are trying to figure out where he was during that time, it's hardly "anti Semitic." LEAVE.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "If it was The Onion" Poster is just showing that it was satire and I believe The Onion WOULD have a title like this. Grow a thicker skin, sheesh. No Foul
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Lame alert. That probably would be The Onion's headline.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It was a joke, lighten the hell up.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This isn't anti-Semitic. I'm Jewish and I'm not offended. It's clearly satirical.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Alfresco]

51. Thanks for posting this MADem. :-)

[Renew Deal]

60. That's certainly what you think the title should be.

[Bobbie Jo]

11. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your jury service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Fri Jan 22, 2016, 07:31 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Bernie Sanders and the kibbutz conundrum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511045139

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

rightwing source suggesting Bernie Sanders is lying about volunteering on a kibbutz, what next he's lying about being Jewish too or maybe having family members die in the Holocaust I mean what camp were they in, this is just disgusting BS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jan 22, 2016, 07:40 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Just stop it. What a dishonest alert.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nice try alerter, but no. Nothing in the OP resembles the arguments you are trying to make about it.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This one is difficult to adjudicate - allowing a RW site to narrate the conversation
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hide. This is flamebait and innuendo masquerading as legitimate commentary. Slimy and pathetic.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Discuss and point out the issues in your alert. I can't imagine more than a few trolls would care about this anyway.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Alfresco]

17. Thanks for posting this Bobbie Jo. :-)

[Bobbie Jo]

19. No problem

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Fine. He actually spent that time working on his brilliant plan

To spend several decades masquerading as one of the Senate's most dedicated progressives, to pretend to support marriage equality while others were pontificating about sacred bonds between men and women, to pretend to oppose the iraq war while the democratic profiles in not quite actually courage voted for that turd.... All part of his master phony kibbutz scheme to wait, silently waiting, waiting for his chance. Because he knew, he knew...

He knew that in 2016 it would be HILLARY CLINTON'S TURN to be President, see, and mean old (okay, he was still pretty young, then) Bernie Sanders was already afflicted with Clinton Dee-rangement syndrome, why else would anyone ever dare deny the self-evident inevitable obviousness of Hillary deserving Hillary's turn, once Hillary's turn rolled around.

(Hillary's turn was also in 2008.... but that is not important to our narrative, so we will pretend it never happened)

Where was I. Yes, that wily Bernie Sanders, his fake Kibbutz was an evil underground lair, a secret lab under a volcano under the sea, a sea in fact which was under another volcano, that's how secret and wily that bad ol' Bernie Sanders was, starting his decades-long evil, nasty plot to snatch the 2016 nomination away from its rightful owner.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HA!

Boo! Hiss!

[Alfresco]

20. You have a vivid imagination. Ever considered being a writer?

[snoringvoter]

28. It's a rip from this..

[Alfresco]

39. Ah.. never saw the movie.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. Who's to say I'm not alre----heyyyyy, wait a minute...

Tricky, tricky

Anyway, we all must be wary of what happened to our good friend Ken- are you writing the story, or is the story writing you?

[Paulie]

21. There is a meme pic floating around

"I'm so glad I grew up in the 80's and 90's, I did so much stupid shit and there is no record of it anywhere!"

More so in the 1960's; when computers filled entire rooms and a 5 meg hard drive the size of a refrigerator.

Not everything is in the Google.

[Vinca]

22. If we're going to revisit Bernie's kibbutz years, I would also like to revisit

Hillary's Goldwater girl years. Keep pimping the kibbutz meme though. It can only garner more votes from the Jewish community for Bernie.

[Alfresco]

23. If you read the articles it's the Jewish community who are most curious about this.

[Vinca]

26. They could always ask Bernie. I doubt he did anything crazier than any of us other

young people during that time in history. Can't a person just take a little time for themselves to explore the world? And why must they account for it some 50 years later? What, exactly, do they suspect a young man was doing overseas in 1964? I love the way these "mysterious" things are planted. It reminds me of Republican tactics used against Bill Clinton.

[Alfresco]

30. Read the articles. Many people have asked with no response which is why it's such a mystery.

[Vinca]

76. I'm not terribly interested in what Bernie did 50 years ago.

[azurnoir]

42. well then if that's the case why post it here and not in the Jewish group?

[pangaia]

46. Kerspluurrt!!

[Alfresco]

47. Because I wanted to. :-)

[MADem]

61. All you have to do is buy HRC's book--she tells ALL--and even provides pictures.

It's in the library if you don't want to throw down any coin.

See, when you're a teenager living with your parents, they'll take out the Brownie camera every now and again to record the progress of their little darlings--it's what parents do.

Of course, since she was WAY TOO YOUNG TO VOTE for Eisenhower, all she could do is cheer her father's choice.

By the time she was old enough to vote, she'd switched sides. Way sooner than Elizabeth Warren--who was a VOTING Republican until 1996--but we don't hold that against her, do we? DO we?

Not sure why you are ANTICIPATING bad news re: the kibbutz years, but that's what you sound like, with your "pimping" language. Maybe you should read the articles from all the Jewish newspapers that have been linked in this thread. Jewish people ARE interested in Sanders' kibbitz experiences. Why do you think it is bad that they are asking? Why are you being so DEFENSIVE about it?

The kibbutz experience can be, for some, profoundly transforming. It's on the order of a gap year, that "tour of Europe," or that "volunteer to help the underprivileged" either at home or abroad, post university. It is normal and natural for kibbutzim to ask a) Which kibbutz? and b) Who did he interact with there, and what what he like? What jobs did he do?

It's no accident that some people who were together on the kibbutz forty, fifty, sixty years ago STILL stay in touch. It is for many a significant and meaningful event in their lives. The memories are fond, the friendships, strong. People want to know how Sanders reacted to his experiences--that is ALL they want to know. What's a bit unusual is that he doesn't seem to want to talk about it. Most people, you can't shut them up. Hey, he can correct that impression anytime. It's up to him, but he's not going to stop the wondering.

[LWolf]

24. Clearly, Google has limits,

and I'm not referring to lack of knowledge about a kibbutz.

Google handles a mind-boggling 3.5 billion searches a day. That’s an average of more than 40,000 queries every second of the day and night. (You don’t have to take my word for it – you can Google it.) Although it has become the repository of almost all human knowledge, it has its limits.

The Jerusalem Post is either disingenuous, tongue-in-cheek, or not so great at investigative reporting themselves if they are relying on internet sources without verification for their information:

Who is this Bernie Sanders? Google tells us much about him. He was born almost exactly three months before the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. His parents were Jewish immigrants from Poland whose families were killed in the Holocaust. He is a talented folk musician. He earned an undergraduate degree in political science in 1964, and, shortly after spent several months on an Israeli kibbutz.

With great respect and affection, I think I can confidently state that Sanders is NOT a "talented" folk musician. I didn't have to go far to discover that.

I'm clearly "not the first to wonder what kibbutz Sanders was on." I never wondered at all. I still don't. Somehow, that nugget has never been a factor in my choice of candidates. As an American who supports a strong separation of church and state, the faith of the president doesn't interest me as long as it doesn't bleed into government.

I don't know anything about kibbutzes (sp?), other than that they are places people go to volunteer. The Jerusalem Post suggests that knowing which kibbutz he volunteered for would make a difference for Israelis voting in the U.S. election. Being totally uninformed about kibbutzes, that leaves me to wonder if some volunteer efforts are more valuable than others. If the Jerusalem Post really wants to "get a better idea about the man and his attitude toward our country and issues that are important to us," then perhaps they could look into his words and votes on Israeli issues while in Congress.

It would be less disingenuous to do so, and to open conversation about their interests that way. Or simply to openly endorse his opponent, if that's their agenda.

[restorefreedom]

33. please. don't. go. there.

just......don't.

we have enough shit slinging already. this is dangerously close to hideable antisemitism, although i see the jury disagreed. unfortunate.

please self delete.

have a nice day,
rf

[Alfresco]

36. You are mistaken. I'll leave it at that.

[restorefreedom]

38. then why would this tidbit from ancient history

be of any relevance to the voters? can you explain that?

[Alfresco]

40. That is the question. Why would Bernie keep this a secret if it's not relevant?

[restorefreedom]

41. because it is so unrelated to politcs and so irrelevant,

that it needs no discussion.

bernie is and has always been a stand up guy.

the insinuation that he was involved in some seedy activities at a kibbutz 50 years ago is beyond revolting and shows how far gone the clinton campaign really is.

have a nice day, alfresco!

ps...when is hillary going to release the transcripts of her wall street speeches? that is much more timely and relevant.

[Alfresco]

43. How do we know it's not relevant? The mystery continues. :-)

[LanternWaste]

48. Only for those creating a self-fulfilling prophecy predicated on circular arguments.

"The mystery continues..."

Only for those creating a self-fulfilling prophecy predicated on circular arguments.

[restorefreedom]

57. the only mystery

is why anybody thinks this is a bona fide mystery.

[Renew Deal]

59. Who said it was a secret?

Has he been asked about it? His staff is known to shield him from things. So if he hasn't been asked, it may not be an issue.

[Alfresco]

62. ...

[MADem]

50. The funniest part of that JPOST article is "talented folk musician!"

Even Sanders admits he was GHASTLY!

[Alfresco]

55. Yikes.

[elias49]

56. That should disqualify him right there!!

Early rap. No too good!


But we know where his heart is. Do we know where Hillary's is? It changes so often and quickly...
Oooo. How about "You're So Vain"?

[restorefreedom]

58. i have to agree with you there

singing is not his strong suit

does make one wonder about the veracity of the rest of it, if thats what they were willing to say

[djean111]

53. I am much more concerned with Hillary's ties with The Family/The Fellowship.

Those people are scary.

[KittyWampus]

77. It was most surely pandering. Maybe also wanting to be a part of the group.

The Family is sort of like the Rev. Moon in that many politicians attend events because it looks innocuous on the surface and they don't dig down to find out what's really going on.

[djean111]

80. Both pandering to and just wanting to be part of that group are distasteful to me.

And not knowing what that group stands for is also intellectually lazy. That group has been entrenched in D.C. for far too long to claim ignorance of its goals.

[peacebird]

78. Me too, and those ties are from the last couple decades.....

[MuseRider]

54. I am not sure why this matters

but I can understand why they might want to know this. I don't personally care.

It surely influenced him in many ways. It has always sounded like an interesting, life changing experience to me. My brother in law spent some time doing it but found it was not for him. He left because at that time he was draft age there and was going to be drafted. He was surely not the type of person who would have survived that experience.

Life experiences are always good in the long run even if they are bad in the short run so it must have made some impact on him.

Being a person who apparently does not want to talk much about himself that may explain why no one knows. Just thinking out loud because I too would love to know what he learned from it but in the long run I don't really care or think it is much to worry about.

[Octafish]

63. Bernie is Jewish?

Who cares?

[Live and Learn]

65. WTF? I have a friend (non-Jewish) who was a kibbutz volunteer long ao.

I guess I will have to demand she provide records to prove it although I am unsure what reason I can give her for needing them.

[Oilwellian]

67. They've reached the bottom of the barrel shit already?

Good, it may be over very soon.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Anti-Semitic conspiracies to go with the links to Stormfront and tomatobubble?

Is anyone really surprised by this new "concern" for where Bernie was while he visited Israel?

He's been called "shifty Sanders", Israel's #1 shill, a "red Jew", had his loyalty questioned and accused of having his campaign funded by Israel.

It's their version of birtherism.

I expected this to happen eventually, at least they're done pretending they're not using dog whistle tactics.

[GeorgeGist]

69. What does this have to do with the Democratic primary?

[Matariki]

73. LOL - must be the week of throwing spaghetti at the wall hoping something sticks

what a blatantly desperate article.

[Bluenorthwest]

79. Perhaps it was a kibbuzt in Kenya? Or actually a madrasa in Indonesia?

nt

[Alfresco]

82. Bernie Sanders’s Kibbutz Found. Surprise: It’s Socialist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/us/politics/bernie-sanders-kibbutz.html?_r=0

By STEVEN ERLANGERFEB. 5, 2016

JERUSALEM — Senator Bernie Sanders volunteered on an Israeli kibbutz in the 1960s, but he has always been vague about the specific location. Now, the mystery about the Democratic presidential candidate’s past appears to have been solved, in the archives of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Yossi Melman, a longtime Haaretz writer, remembers an interview he did with Mr. Sanders in 1990, the year he was elected to represent Vermont in the House. Haaretz dug up that clip, in which Mr. Sanders said he had spent several months in 1963 working on Kibbutz Sha’ar Ha’amakim, near Haifa in northern Israel, as a guest of the Hashomer Hatzair youth movement.

The movement, whose Hebrew name translates to “The Young Guard,” was a socialist, Zionist secular Jewish youth group founded in 1913 in Galicia, Austria-Hungary, and shared the name of a workers’ party in pre-1948 Palestine. The original 1990 article was titled “The First Socialist” and said that after spending time on the kibbutz with his wife at that time, Mr. Sanders seems to have lost his connection “to Israel, Zionism and Judaism,” Haaretz reported this week. Mr. Sanders has long described himself as a democratic socialist.
----------
The kibbutz was founded in Romania in 1929 and established in pre-state Israel in 1935. It saw the Soviet Union as a model, and often flew the red flag at outdoor events.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://forward.com/news/332946/revealed-at-last-inside-the-kibbutz-where-bernie-sanders-lived-and-learned/

Revealed at Last! Inside the Kibbutz Where Bernie Sanders Lived and Learned Socialism

Sanders’ time on the kibbutz, where he lived for a few months with his ex-wife, Deborah Messing (born Deborah Shiling) is referenced in virtually every profile of the candidate.

But the Sanders campaign has been tight-lipped about name of kibbutz, leaving journalists in Israel and the U.S. searching fruitlessly for months. On February 4, national security journalist Yossi Melman unearthed a 1990 interview with the candidate in the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, where he revealed that it was Shaar HaAmakim.

On Friday, the typically sleepy kibbutz in the shadow of the Carmel Mountain was swarming with Israeli journalists searching for memories or photos of the presidential hopeful.

“The kibbutz was a full commune,” said Irit Drori, a 72-year-old former secretary of the kibbutz. Typical of the time, children were raised in a dormitory apart from their parents, who lived in small apartments.

The kibbutz founders had a strong admiration for the Communist system in the Soviet Union.