A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for Goldman Sachs.

[Odin2005]

A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for the TPP at the expense of American workers.

A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for ever increasing profits of HMOs, drug companies, "non-profit" hospitals, and medical device manufacturers that make healthcare increasingly unaffordable and "health insurance" increasingly worthless.

A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for ENDLESS WAR in the Middle East in the name of corporate profits.

I cannot accept any of these things, that is why I am voting for Bernie Sanders. If you want more of the same pro-corporate BS we have seen for the past 35 years vote for Hillary. If you want real change, vote for Bernie.

[Metric System]

1. Good for you, but don't insult me or who I choose to vote for. Thank you for providing yet another

example of the behavior detailed in this article:

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/22/1473797/-I-will-not-condone-the-conspiracy-theories-and-the-ugliness-I-am-supporting-Clinton

[brentspeak]

3. Look up the word "insult" in the dictionary

The OP didn't "insult" anyone. Please don't insult our intelligence.

[TDale313]

7. Apparently pointing out policy differences are "insults"

While Hillary supporters only speak in glowingly positive terms and talk up their candidate and never go negative. wtf?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

42. This is such a great point. Both sides have all kinds of supporters, but the Hillary side

inexplicably cling to this myth that only Sanders supporters "insult" the other side. The behavior of many of the Hillary supporters here have seriously strengthened my support for Sanders.

[hifiguy]

62. I have yet to see a Clinton supporter

refer to her policies. Ever. I suppose it's because they are in essence Republican policies on 90%+ of the issues.

[Gene Debs]

86. They can't, and they know it. Sanders' supporters can point to a

decades-long list of committed fights for working people, minorities, and progressive causes. All Clinton's supporters seem to have to offer is some breathless, vague sense that she's awesome. They can't hold up her record on public policy, because it's an embarrassment. Their enthusiasm for her seems to be completely visceral, and it makes me wonder what the real, deep-down reasons for their enthusiasm are. Is it because they just want a woman president? If that's the case, I have to assume they'd be equally happy with Carly Fiorina.

[sammythecat]

89. You summed it up perfectly

Well said, and just in case it hasn't been said, welcome to DU!

[Victor_c3]

99. As you are, I'm completely stumped as to why anyone would think Clinton is the better candidate

I just don't get it. I could understand how people could support Trump and Cruz and even bush, but support for Clinton boggles my mind. Clinton stands for or has stood against so many things that are important to democrats. She has only "evolved" on certain issues after it was clear that the majority of Americans had already evolved as well.

There is no way in hell I could bring myself to vote for someone who voted for the Iraq War Resolution and then took more than a decade to realize that it was a mistake. She is either lacking adequate insight into serious issues or she is just going along with whatever the zeitgeist at the time is as it seems to be the politically expedient thing to do. Either of those make her an unacceptable option to me.

As a 23 year old Infantry Officer in 2002 and early 2003 I was boggled with what I saw going on in the Middle East. I never once understood the connection between Iraq and September 11th or believed we should have invaded that country. In found myself shooting, killing, and stuffing body bags in Iraq from February 2004 through March 2005. I knew before that war and I knew when I was in the war that it was a huge mistake. For someone who is aspiring to be our president to have taken more than a decade to realize the same thing a naïve and young kid could realize in an instant is a mistake says a lot about the poor judgement of the person aspiring to be our leader.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

110. The horrors of war

that you describe validate my own feeling from the beginning that the Iraq war was a cynical endeavor to enrich powerful interests. I am very glad you survived to tell about it.

[hifiguy]

130. A woman president would be a fine thing.

But not the reincarnation of Margaret Thatcher - bellicose/warlike and dedicated to piss-down economics amd tje 1%.

[EdwardBernays]

127. ?!?!

Wait! She has policies?????

[hifiguy]

128. Well, sort of. Depends on the day and who she]s talking at.

[deathrind]

129. Interesting.

You make a very good point. Most of the posts I see that involve HRC and a position on any given issue is mostly her position in reference to a Sanders position and how "out of touch" he is on a position.

[Metric System]

8. A vote for Hillary is a vote for endless war? What does that say about Hillary supporters?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. That was an excellent rebuttal

I couldn't be prouder than to stand with you.





Earnestly and respectfully,
DSB

[Metric System]

13. Thank you. It's telling they can't see the insult in the OP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Never try to get somebody to believe something their whole world view hinges on not believing.

DSB

[restorefreedom]

10. well, how DO you feel about libya, iraq, and syria

and her positions on them?

can't say THATS not an issue question

[ish of the hammer]

18. don't forget Honduras and Guatemala

but all I'm hearing is crickets....

[Odin2005]

20. Yep. Make no mistake...

...Hillary is a tool for the 1% and the rapacious Capitalist elites that rape and pillage the developing world.

[draa]

76. Keep preaching it Odin

As a veteran I can safely say Clinton is not fit to be Commander in Chief.

Her Iraq War vote is enough to disqualify her completely.

[restorefreedom]

39. really would like someone to weigh in. nt

[artislife]

14. Do you need more pearls to clutch?

I am sure we can have a whip around to get some more for you.



There, there.

[Metric System]

24. Typical nasty response.

[snoringvoter]

27. Truth.

It's what is hurting you.

Truth.

[Metric System]

29. If that's what you call it, go ahead.

[artislife]

31. No not nasty...."concerned".

We are here to help if you need any more!

[Odin2005]

19. Truth hurts, huh?

[Lawud]

23. The truth

[snoringvoter]

26. That they are perfectly fine with endless wars.

We are not.

It's time to change priorities.

[tecelote]

38. Exactly what I ask.

How can you support a hawk?

Doesn't it bother you that she is for regime change at the expense of so many lives?

Doesn't it bother you that she says we can not afford healthcare for all and free public college but we can afford to depose elected leaders of other countries?

Why do you support continued war?!

Please, if you do one thing, get her to back off of the needless killing.

[hifiguy]

63. The heat death of the universe will come to pass

before you get any attempt at a serious answer. They have nothing. Zip, el zilcho, nada, bupkis.

[passiveporcupine]

50. I don't think it says anything about her supporters

other than they will vote for her because of, or in spite of, her history on foreign policy and national security and privacy. They may agree with her, or maybe think it's not that important because some of her other positions are more important to them.

Pointing out what they are voting for, is not attacking them. It's pointing out who Hillary is and what she represents.

What do you think it says? Does it make you feel embarrassed or ashamed to be connected with her, knowing her aggressive stance on dealing with countries like Syria, Iran, Libya, Iraq?

If you feel shame, or attacked because you support her, that may be something you should look at more deeply.

[Paka]

59. Amen!

[SammyWinstonJack]

81. Well said.

[mindwalker_i]

55. There some reason to believe that Hillary is for endless war

Vote for Iraq war, close ties to Henry Kissinger. There's also good reason to believe that Hillary is more concerned about the needs or desires of wall street than for actual, non-incorporated people. What does that say about Hillary supporters?

[Lage Nom Ai]

72. An opinion

Of the candidate's foreign policy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

80. Not much imo.

[daybranch]

85. It says what the person believes

based on the person's analysis of past actions and currently stated positions and Hillary's association with the Bushes, Trump, and even worse Kissinger. The poster never said you favored war. Get over it.

[sammythecat]

90. It says they're making a mistake

supporting Hillary. Nothing more than that, and nothing less. Trying to imply that it's some sort of hateful insult is ridiculous, and also pathetic. That's an insult. See the difference?

[Perogie]

98. you're way too sensative

[Jackilope]

107. She is a hawk, that is no secret. Iraq war vote was her judgement call.

She is beholden to moneyed interests, those that stand to gain by war.

If that concept troubles you, perhaps you need to take another look at who you are supporting.

[libdem4life]

4. THAT was an insult to you? Good lawd. Some thin skin around here.

[Odin2005]

6. Hillarians are easily offended, apparently.

[libdem4life]

15. Apparently.

[SammyWinstonJack]

82. As is their candidate.

[stonecutter357]

30. +1

[comradebillyboy]

34. excellent article, thanks and keep up the good fight...

[passiveporcupine]

40. Behavior detailed in this article

you mean like this?

I posted this on the Primary board - it's wasted there
No use talking to the Sanders folks

They are true believers who are more interested in ideals than common sense. They are more interested in reaching for the moon than getting incremental things done to further the cause. The are more interested having a totally ineffective Bernie Sanders in the White House, who talks a good game, but will get nothing done then someone who deal with the Republicans' BS and can take small steps forward. They seem to have little understanding of how government actually works.

Worse yet they seem to be a small minority of mostly decently well off white people who isolated in their communities, out of touch how the average American thinks, and who believe that everyone has their frame of reference. They believe that their lovable but angry little socialist will be embraced by the centralists in this country who decide Presidential elections. They don't understand or simply don't care that their little crusade could hand the White House, both Houses of Congress and the Supreme Court to the Republicans.

They believe that it is more important to vote their convictions than to win. Having a discussion with them is a waste of time and energy.

You are absolutely and 100% correct on all points and you said it better than I ever could have.

And, yes, having a discussion with a Bernie club member is a waste of time and energy.

[Odin2005]

46. That is some quality Establishment delusion you found, there.

The "centrist swing voter" is a myth, elections are decided by turnout of the base.

[Duval]

56. I see no insult in the OP. Read it again, please.

[rhett o rick]

75. I figure you must hit refresh a dozen times to get in the first response. To bad you don't

do more with it.

Sanders represents the 99% and Clinton represents the 1%. All Democrats should back the 99%.

[Betty Karlson]

79. It insults you to hear that Clinton supports endless war?

Does that mean you put fingers in your ears every time her "experience" is detailed?

[PatrynXX]

88. thanks for reinforcing why I'm going for Sanders

face palm. seriously you need a head check quit insulting others about BS

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. This is an excellent synopsis.

I stand with you and with Bernie Sanders.

[Odin2005]

5. Thanks, Peggy!

[safeinOhio]

35. If Peggy does,

so do I.

[hifiguy]

65. Same for me! nt

[840high]

78. Me 2

[Faux pas]

11. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000

[TIME TO PANIC]

12. A vote for Hillary is a vote to pull our party further to the right.

[sammythecat]

91. That's exactly what it is,

and I sincerely hope it's just that her supporters haven't realized that yet.

[Akicita]

112. That's a vicious lie! Hillary has always been in the vanguard fighting for progressive causes.

You want specifics? Here ya go:

1) Hillary was among the first progressive politicians to fight for marriage equality. OOPS! She was against marriage equality in 08 and only switched positions after the vast majority of Democrats voiced support for gay marriage.

2) Hillary stood against the horrible decision to go to war in Iraq which has caused so much turmoil and suffering in the Middle East. OOPS! She voted for the war and supported it until it turned sour. She's against it now though so what's the diff.

3) For years Hillary has defended alleged sexual abuse victims. OOOPS! I guess for years she has actually defended an alleged sexual abuser.

4) Hillary was against the NAFTA trade agreement that shipped so many American jobs overseas. Even though her husband fought for and signed it into law, you just know Hillary was vehemently against it and mad at Bill for signing it into law. What do you think all those rumors of fighting and flying lamps in the White House were all about.


UMMM. Maybe I need a RESET button for this post

[TIME TO PANIC]

120. +1

[JRLeft]

17. A vote for mega death and corporate greed.

[jalan48]

21. From Goldwater to Goldman Sachs. The evolution of Hillary in a nutshell.

[forest444]

22. And for the TPP.

The Tyrannical Power Play.

Does anybody really buy her 11th hour conversion on this issue, given her record of talking out both sides of her mouth on corporatocracy issues?

[Odin2005]

32. Shillary is a compulsive liar.

[forest444]

36. The always crucial swing voters agree.

This is why, whatever else could be said about her good or bad, she can't be the nominee if we're to have any hope of keeping Führer Donald and the Tealibans out of the White House.

[passiveporcupine]

54. This is what the Hillary supporters are complaining about

Shillary? Come on...do you like it when Bernie is called names?

I wish both sides would be a little less nasty and a lot less defensive.

[pinebox]

96. Agreed!

[colsohlibgal]

25. So True

But hard core Hillary people keep those blinders on. They will rarely even try to refute directly the points made by the Bern Brigade.

[Deny and Shred]

41. Yup. Just look upthread

It must be in the textbook.

Claim that Bernie supporters are being insulting. Have a Bernie supporter respond with a question about an issue. Let an hour go by until somebody makes a comment that can be seen as another insult. Respond to insult and IGNORE THE ISSUE.

Textbook.

[Jarqui]

28. Hillary Goldman Clinton

That has kind of a cash register ring to it ..

[Ferd Berfel]

33. Aint it the sad Truth!

[SoapBox]

37. +1,000,000

Go Bernie!

[George II]

43. A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for Hillary Clinton. What are you trying to prove, Odin?

[Odin2005]

45. I'm not "trying" to prove anything.

It is a fact that she is Wall Street's friend.

It is a fact that she opposes Single Payer.

It is a fact that she supports American imperialism.

[George II]

49. Sanders supports "American imperialism" too -

- he never saw a military funding bill he couldn't refuse.

[Uncle Joe]

66. Bernie is against American Imperialism but when the nation fights a war even against his

best admonitions, he's not then going to turn around and leave the troops unfunded in hostile territory.

[Odin2005]

74. +1

[Enthusiast]

93. Ding ding ding! Best answer award!

[Got it]

44. I'm with Odin2005

HRC is unscrupulous and immoral. Given the laundry list of irrefutable facts that support this assertion, it's distressing that so many so-called democrats still support her. She's the epitome of the "two party" sham, working tirelessly to fool people that she really cares about progressive issues.

Will she release the transcripts of her Goldman Sachs speeches, or any of the others that payed her millions over the past few years?

Follow the money

[jwirr]

60. I have always thought about what Bill Clinton would have

had to do the get elected Governor of Arkansas. Arkansas is a southern state, a state that has conservative ideals even when they vote Democratic. It is the type of state we get our blue dogs and conserva Dems from.

Then he moves to help create the DLC so that we can elect Democrats again. Right leaning Democrats. IMO what they created was a southern strategy to elect Democrats. Lean right and win.

But that has never really worked in northern states that were traditionally blue states. But the results of the right turn have not produced an economic win for the country. It has kept the south very poor under conservative governors while it has allowed Congress to depress the economies of the northern blue states.

Hillary is still using a southern strategy that does not work for any of us. She still leans right and thinks it works. We need to turn back to what did work before 1980. We need to stop following a strategy that does not work.

[AZ Progressive]

47. Picture of Hillary greeting Goldman Sachs' CEO, Lloyd Blankfein

[Odin2005]

48. *GAG*

[CharlotteVale]

52. Her real running mate.

[CharlotteVale]

51. And it doesn't get any clearer than that. It's unspinnable.

[PoliticAverse]

53. Hey, they're "doing God's work"!...

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he-is-just-doing-gods-work/comment-page-1/?_r=0

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. OMG!

[Enthusiast]

94. Fucking incredible!

[Paka]

57. K&R

Great post. Those things and so many more are why I too am voting for Bernie Sanders.

[Clifton]

58. You'll be interested in this I think...

I ran across this today - worth a read.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/22/hillary-clinton-and-the-northern-strategy/

[hifiguy]

61. And Citibank, and Northrop Grumman, and Boeing

Last edited Sat Jan 23, 2016, 08:03 PM - Edit history (1)

and every mercenary outfit like Xe or whatever the fuck it's called now, and the MIC and the NSA, and the Secret Government, abd Billionaires Everywhere, and every other thing that is rotten in and about this once-proud republic.

[Jack Rabbit]

64. K/R

This is also the reason why I am voting for Bernie.

I seriously do not believe America can take another tour to eight years of neoliberalism, whether the neoliberal is Hillary of one of the Republicans, and still be America.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

67. Odin, it's damn good to see you around again (and a Sanders supporter)!

[Odin2005]

69. Hiya!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

68. and health insurance companies!

[Odin2005]

71. I listed to a Minnesota Public Radio program a week ago about the cost of healthcare...

...And they were saying that the prime driver of the ever-increasing healthcare costs is less the insurance companies and more with hospitals, drug companies, and medical device manufacturers essentially price gouging because they can get away with it. In the US, unlike in other countries, there are no regulations preventing such gouging and those companies like it that way.

I was very disappointed that Senators Klobuchar and Franken gave in to the medical device manufacturers (who have a huge presence in Minnesota) in suspending the medical device tax that was supposed to pay for some of the ADA subsidies. This is the kind of corrupt power we are dealing with in the medical industry, everyone in the industry is fleecing patients and taxpayers.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

73. They don't like it when they get found out

[Red Oak]

70. Go Bernie, but even more importantly...

Go all the volunteers and voters that will actually pull this revolution off!

Just imagine a President that uses the bully pulpit to make it legal for the federal government to negotiate drug prices with big pharma. Imagine all the health care dollars saved! I don't remember the big H calling for price negotiations. Someone feel free to tell me where my abuela suggested it.

[darkangel218]

77. I just wish she would post the transcripts

Instead of laughing at by request. (If she has nothing to hide)

I will not hold my breath though.

[cascadiance]

84. A vote for Clinton is a vote for H-1B and other guest worker program outsourcing?...

Based on her statement in 2008 election asking for expansion of H-1B some would say yes. Based on her absence of any kind of comment since that time, some would say "We don't know"...

But an interesting article just now here with comments from the current ambassador to India on relations with India now, might hint what is to come.

Note that the article here states that this ambassador, Richard Rahul Verma, has been on Hillary Clinton's presidential election team in the past. Does he speak for her and her current policy? That is a big question.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/india-to-remain-priority-for-us-no-matter-who-rules-us-ambassador/articleshow/50688302.cms

India to remain priority for US, no matter who rules: US Ambassador

By MEERA MOHANTY, ET Bureau | 22 Jan, 2016, 09.40PM IST



BHUBANESHWAR: India will remain high priority for the next president of the US irrespective of who wins the 2016 presidential elections, US Ambassador to India, Richard Rahul Verma, said on Friday.

"I actually think it is not just a bipartisan support US-India relations enjoys, it is now a non- partisan issue. If you look at the House of Congress the single largest bipartisan group, of 350 members, is the India Caucus. I do not think any other issue brings 350 members of the House of Congress together," Verma said during his first visit to Bhubaneshwar.

...

Verma, formerly assistant secretary of state for legislative affairs, has served on Democrat presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton's team in the past.

On the recent increase in visa fees for H1B visas, from $2,000 to $4,000, Verma said it was a congressional decision, to raise funds for 9/11 victims, and not aimed at any particular country. "There is an ongoing conversation between companies and members of the congress going forward on the impact of these fees," he said, adding that India which got the "lions shares of H1B visa and majority of L1 visa" has no need to worry.
...

[stopbush]

87. Remember that as YOU vote for Hillary in November.

[Odin2005]

103. I will not vote for her.

[stopbush]

111. So you prefer to abstain and vote for the R by proxy.

This is Democratic Underground, you know.

Thinking like yours - check, make that nonthinking - will elect an R.

[Odin2005]

113. Voting for her is voting for R by proxy.

[stopbush]

114. Delusional.

[Odin2005]

115. Yes, having principles is considerd delusional by the Estasblishment.

Because they have all sold their souls for $$$ And could not comprehend principles even if it hit them in the ass.

[stopbush]

116. I'm not impressed by your pouty, foot-stomping principles.

I've been voting D since 1972, and frankly, I'm not impressed with the cry babies who are attaching themselves to Bernie. He deserves better, as does the person who gets the D nomination, whoever that is.

Whatcha gonna do if Hillary wins and Bernie urges his followers to vote for her? Ignore him?

[Odin2005]

117. The only cry-babies I see are the ones defending Clinton.

[stopbush]

118. So if Hillary wins and Bernie asks his supporters to vote for her

what will you do? Call Bernie part of the establishment, part of the problem?

Try thinking beyond 5pm today.

[Odin2005]

119. I don't let other people tell me who to vote for.

I'd rather keep my conscience clear that vote for a warmongering corporatist, and nothing is going to change my mind. Nothing.

[stopbush]

121. You're a naive enabler of the Rs.

Idealism ignorant of its real-world consequences.

[Odin2005]

122. That overused meme doesn't work, anymore.

[stopbush]

123. Not on you. More's the pity.

[Odin2005]

124. Not just me, most people.

People are sick of being scolded and shamed for voting for the lesser of the two evils. The corrupt fucks in the Establishment are not entitled to our votes. If the Dems lose that is THEIR fault for forcing a corrupt, warmongering, pathological liar on us.

[stopbush]

125. DU TOS:

"In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side."

Does this mean anything to you? If not, what the hell are you doing at DU?

[Odin2005]

126. I'm not telling others not to vote.

I'm telling you what people WILL do. Big difference.

[stopbush]

131. Bullshit. Read the TOS again.

What part of "must support D nominees" don't you get?

[hifiguy]

132. All of this. What few policies she has deigned

to inform the proletarians of are 90+ Republican.

Endless War everywhere, continuing to coddle the banksters/MIC and let them run amok, TPP to deligitimize and privatize government, no progress towards Medicare For All, let students keep drowning in debt and double down on the drug war so the for-profit prisons continue to rake in the $$$.

Who in their right mind can support horseshit like that?

[vkkv]

92. K&R

[Enthusiast]

95. Kicked and recommended!

[jmowreader]

97. And a vote for Bernie Sanders is a vote to ensure the Republicans sweep November

He's painted himself into a corner with his "no superPAC money" stance. Which would be admirable and doable in a $100 million race, but not in a $2 billion one.

Without superPAC money he won't be able to counter the inevitable barrage of negative ads from the Koch Brothers, the NRA, the National Right to Life Committee and anyone else whose pocket is going to get a lot lighter after Sanders' election.

And God, Buddha, Cthulhu, Allah, Vishnu and the Flying Spaghetti Monster all together won't be able to save him when the GOP remembers the East German Communist Party's post-reunification new name was the "Party of Democratic Socialism."

If he takes superPAC money, a lot of the people who love Bernie because he isn't beholden to big donors will bolt because he will have become a member of "the establishment."

[Odin2005]

102. Your lack of faith in the American people is sad.

It seems like you have given up and accepted rule by money.

[asuhornets]

100. Right..

And a vote for Bernie Sanders is a vote for any Republican candidate. When did a 74-year old Independent become the messiah of the Democratic Party?

[Odin2005]

101. (71 posts) your "concern" is noted.

Lots of low-post members defending Hillary, I wonder why that is...

[asuhornets]

104. Yep, I've heard that from Bernie supporters, but

if I was a Bernie supporter I would be welcomed with open arms.


GO HILLARY!!!!

[Gene Debs]

105. Probably when a Republican disguised as a Democrat in a pantsuit started pushing Republican policy.

[Akicita]

106. Hilliary has a big decision to make. Will she choose Goldman or Sachs to be her running mate?

[Splinter Cell]

108. K + R!

[gordyfl]

109. More Ridiculous Talking Points for Hillary

I just heard former Michigan governor Jennifer Granholm use the same line Hillary used in one of the debates. It was on The Week ABC.

"Why should we pay for Donald Trump's children's college tuition?"

In reality, it would be Donald Trump paying for Americans who can't afford a college education.

I was listening with interest what she had to say, until she quoted Hillary's very misleading assertion about paying for Trump's children. It was then I realized she was just a talking head for Hillary.

Jennifer Granholm. Claire McCaskill. There is an army of them out there trying to take down Bernie.

[demigoddess]

133. Over and over and over again,

this is beginning to be a really big drag.
Over and over and over again,
this is all you guys can say.

[Odin2005]

134. The truth hurts.

It is a fact that she is the Goldman Sachs candidate.

[bigwillq]

135. Yup

K and R