Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:52 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

Why do Bernie/his supporters get to decide what a Democrat stands for?

I support Clinton's promise not to raise taxes for middle class folks who earn less than $250k. So did Obama.

This seems to be mainstream Democratic Party platform.

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106 replies	Author	Time	Post
Why do Bernie/his supporters get to decide what a Democrat stands for? (Original post)	hill2016	Jan 2016	OP
Because the repubs have already claimed most of NoHope Hillary's policies.	last1standing	Jan 2016	#1
CrazyPants Sander's policies are very different from NoHope Hillary's. n/t	cheapdate	Jan 2016	#19
Another Sanders supporter heard from!	merrily	Jan 2016	#56
Yep. I respect him for his ideas	cheapdate	Jan 2016	#64
IIRC, you said he was your choice to win this primary.	merrily	Jan 2016	#66
You are correct. He's been my choice from the beginning.	cheapdate	Jan 2016	#68
Isn't that what the Sanders campaign is really about	persuadable	Jan 2016	#36
Because we have better	saltpoint	Jan 2016	#2
RIGHT ON, DUDE !!!	pangaia	Jan 2016	#101
The no true Scotsman fallacy	mcar	Jan 2016	#3
From both Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters.	merrily	Jan 2016	#58
Links to HRC supporters stating that	mcar	Jan 2016	#63
Who said the No True Scotsman fallacy applies only to supporters? There have been many threads and	merrily	Jan 2016	#70
Your examples are not the fallacy I was referencing	mcar	Jan 2016	#75
You mentioned "not real ("true") Democrats." My links were indeed relevant to that.	merrily	Jan 2016	#105
More taxes means	RobertEarl	Jan 2016	#4
Can everyone really have better health care under single payer?	hill2016	Jan 2016	#7
You pay more for a cadillac	RobertEarl	Jan 2016	#14
not really	hill2016	Jan 2016	#22
Lots of rich patients?	RobertEarl	Jan 2016	#31
I'm just saying	hill2016	Jan 2016	#38
And you are on their side?	RobertEarl	Jan 2016	#46
It's going to take some time, but it's a fact that	Ron Green	Jan 2016	#50
You're not being honest, and you keep playing this game in thread after thread.	arcane1	Jan 2016	#76
Should we end public schools because ...	GeorgeGist	Jan 2016	#89
Do some research	Voice for Peace	Jan 2016	#16
The US healthcare system is ranked 37th in the world.	guillaumeb	Jan 2016	#20
Supplementary insurance will no doubt continue to exist (at a price), under Medicare for All, as it	merrily	Jan 2016	#59
Because they need to justify their faith in the Bern. nt	Agnosticsherbet	Jan 2016	#5
they get to decide what THEY stand for	restorefreedom	Jan 2016	#6
then why are so many people calling	hill2016	Jan 2016	#10
Mainstream democratic platform is to not raise any taxes on uber-upper-upper	Voice for Peace	Jan 2016	#25
yes if you listen to Obama and Clinton	hill2016	Jan 2016	#39
Ok if you are satisfied with that.	Voice for Peace	Jan 2016	#54
the mainstream party platform	restorefreedom	Jan 2016	#41
So, when does supporting H-1B quotas make her representing "mainstream Democratic Party platform"?	cascadiance	Jan 2016	#49
Because there is a huge difference	sadoldgirl	Jan 2016	#8
His supporters have hijacked social media	Dawson Leery	Jan 2016	#9
Hillary supporters don't know how to use social media?	Matariki	Jan 2016	#15
We've seen how BS supporters "use" social media ...	NanceGreggs	Jan 2016	#44
How is it possible to "hijack" social media?	The Velveteen Ocelot	Jan 2016	#35
They don't.	hrmjustin	Jan 2016	#11
+ a million	Number23	Jan 2016	#83
because they act like	2pooped2pop	Jan 2016	#12
We do?!?	Matariki	Jan 2016	#13
+ 1000	MissDeeds	Jan 2016	#18
BECAUSE REVOLUTION!!!!! * * except for reparations	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#17
+1,000,000	Dawson Leery	Jan 2016	#24
You want reparations?	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#26
Yes of course, national baseline funding for 1 - 12 free room and board for college	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#28
How do you decide who gets reparations?	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#47
Those directly effected by Jim Crow, War on drugs, native American genocide and stupid	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#53
So you decide what "revolution" means. Got it.	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#80
Wait, isn't that EXACTLY what Sanders is doing?! Defining what revolution for everyone	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#84
He's the candidate. All his proposals have a funding mechanism.	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#93
Reparations does have a funding mechanism, that's false.. and like I've said about Sanders he	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#96
Why do you support a candidate who does not agree with your demands?	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#97
She's not the revolution candidate, why are we going over this again?	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#98
You listed a bunch of things you wanted, yet your candidate does not support any of it.	Qutzupalotl	Jan 2016	#99
Then why isn't Hillary supporting them?	beam me up scottie	Jan 2016	#55
She's not the revolution candidate Sanders is, she's not sticking herself with that title	uponit7771	Jan 2016	#57
Hill2016, I am sorry but most of what we've seen of your	7wo7rees	Jan 2016	#21
Who is "we?"	Bobbie Jo	Jan 2016	#29
Both of us. Mr and Ms 7wo7rees, mkay? nt	7wo7rees	Jan 2016	#33
Hookay.	Bobbie Jo	Jan 2016	#42
Yep	Kalidurga	Jan 2016	#104
"no new taxes" is something democrats stand for? Like a foundational principle?	lumberjack_jeff	Jan 2016	#23
Because we are Democrats and we vote. Get used to it.	morningfog	Jan 2016	#27
but you don't get to call other the Democratic frontrunner	hill2016	Jan 2016	#30
Sure we do. Especially when they attack from the right.	morningfog	Jan 2016	#34
what if the majority of party voters	hill2016	Jan 2016	#40
If the platform ends up conservative of course I will call it out.	morningfog	Jan 2016	#43
You forget we're not supposed to go against who the establishment picks out for us, remember?	VulgarPoet	Jan 2016	#90
Deciding who is a real Dem? You mean, like this?	merrily	Jan 2016	#32
Are you afraid you're going to lose your nanny, housekeeper and private school?	neverforget	Jan 2016	#37
"His supporters" include	Proud Public Servant	Jan 2016	#45
And Obama broke his promise in order to fund the ACA. n/t	PoliticAverse	Jan 2016	#48
Because Some Of Us Have Been Democrats For Decades... And Haven't Forgotten What A Real One Is...	WillyT	Jan 2016	#51
I remember Lyndon Johnson and the "Great Society."	The Velveteen Ocelot	Jan 2016	#62
Yep... 'This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things...'	WillyT	Jan 2016	#67
LBJ was within months of a peace treaty in Vietnam	catnhatnh	Jan 2016	#73
Yeah, there was that.	The Velveteen Ocelot	Jan 2016	#74
THIS!! Spot on WillyT!	jillan	Jan 2016	#102
Except $250,000 per year sure doesn't seem like "middle class."	Efilroft Sul	Jan 2016	#52
$250,000 is pretty high. But there are a lot of good Democrats making that.	Hoyt	Jan 2016	#60
If they were good Democrats, they wouldn't complain like Republicans.	Efilroft Sul	Jan 2016	#61
I agree, sounds a bit greedy.	Hoyt	Jan 2016	#65
Change 'mainstream' to 'establishment'...there you go...!	TheProgressive	Jan 2016	#69
They don't...nt	SidDithers	Jan 2016	#71
Because they are so frightfully ideologically pure compared to the rest of us.	DavidDvorkin	Jan 2016	#72
You'll find out why over the next 3 months why we get to decide!!! ;)	Armymedic88	Jan 2016	#77
Who says Hillary stands for Democratic policies	FreakinDJ	Jan 2016	#78
You don't get to decide what the party stands for.	RichVRichV	Jan 2016	#79
35 years of frustration.	HassleCat	Jan 2016	#81
Same way RW extremists like to dictate what a "patriot' is	R B Garr	Jan 2016	#82
Thank you! That was the phrase I was going to use ...	NurseJackie	Jan 2016	#88
If your key reason for voting Democrat is keeping taxes low for $250k earners	Kentonio	Jan 2016	#85
You would be wrong. On a great many things for that matter.	Fearless	Jan 2016	#86
They don't	leftynyc	Jan 2016	#87
I'm a progressive. I'm a democrat.	NCTraveler	Jan 2016	#91
What a puzzling post.	Vinca	Jan 2016	#92
I get to decide what I stand for as a democrat, therefore	whatchamacallit	Jan 2016	#94
Seriously?	democrank	Jan 2016	#95
Are you saying blue dogs aka DINOs should be the ones to decide what a Democrat stands for?	Autumn	Jan 2016	#100
Strange in this large thread the real answer got only a passing, dismissive "answer"	whatthehey	Jan 2016	#103
Look in the mirror when you ask that question.	hobbit709	Jan 2016	#106

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:54 PM

last1standing (11,709 posts)

1. Because the repubs have already claimed most of NoHope Hillary's policies.

n/t

Reply to this post

Response to last1standing (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:06 PM

cheapdate (3,811 posts)

19. CrazyPants Sander's policies are very different from NoHope Hillary's. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to cheapdate (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:40 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

56. Another Sanders supporter heard from!

Reply to this post

Response to merrily (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:58 PM

cheapdate (3,811 posts)

64. Yep. I respect him for his ideas

and for his ability to draw sharp contrasts without slinging mud.

Reply to this post

Response to cheapdate (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:03 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

66. IIRC, you said he was your choice to win this primary.

Reply to this post

Response to merrily (Reply #66)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:05 PM

cheapdate (3,811 posts)

68. You are correct. He's been my choice from the beginning.

For reasons which I've elaborated on many times before.

Reply to this post

Response to last1standing (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:19 PM

persuadable (53 posts)

36. Isn't that what the Sanders campaign is really about

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:54 PM

saltpoint (50,986 posts)

2. Because we have better

music collections.

That's an easy one.

Reply to this post

Response to saltpoint (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:38 PM

pangaia (24,324 posts)

101. RIGHT ON, DUDE !!!

The truth always stings...

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:55 PM

mcar (39,374 posts)

3. The no true Scotsman fallacy

is alive and well on DU.

Reply to this post

Response to mcar (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:41 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

58. From both Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters.

Reply to this post

Response to merrily (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:58 PM

mcar (39,374 posts)

63. Links to HRC supporters stating that

those who don't support their candidate are not "real" Democrats?

Reply to this post

Response to mcar (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:12 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

70. Who said the No True Scotsman fallacy applies only to supporters? There have been many threads and

posts saying flat out that Bernie was not a Democrat. In this post downthread, I linked to one from a currect http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1073049

And here's another post from today, strongly implying many Bernie supporters on this board are not really Democrats. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1072570

I happen to know how to find these because I was involved with them just today. I've seen many others in past months and find it odd that someone who is familiar with the board would need links to know that. In any event, I am pretty good at internet searches. However, I can't imagine what terms I could search DU for that would not yield thousands of irrelevant hits. Bernie supporter? Hillary supporter? real Democrat? Without a poster's name and an approximate date, I don't see finding what you're asking as a five minute task and I'm not willing to spend much more than that. But, you have one of each from today alone.

I suspect you'll do with them what everyone else does who asks for links.

Just went to latest threads and saw this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511073335

eta: We're right wingers, we're no different from right wingers, we're "left libertarians," we're racists; we're sexists; we're everything evil that is, or ever was, under the sun.

Reply to this post

Response to merrily (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:21 PM

mcar (39,374 posts)

75. Your examples are not the fallacy I was referencing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Reply to this post

Response to mcar (Reply #75)

Thu Jan 28, 2016, 07:54 AM

merrily (45,251 posts)

105. You mentioned "not real ("true") Democrats." My links were indeed relevant to that.

If you don't think so, you'll have to be specific.

The posts to which I linked you were those of Hillary supporters saying Bernie was not a real Democrat or his supporters are not real Democrats. Those are the links that you requested.

BTW, I am familiar with the no true Scotsman fallacy, but knowing what it is does not help me know why you think the links that I provided were not what you requested.

This is an example of why I seldom provide links anymore when Hillary supporters ask for them.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:56 PM

RobertEarl (13,685 posts)

4. More taxes means

Better take home pay and better health care for everyone.

H is against better health care for everyone, therefore is anti-democratic.

Reply to this post

Response to RobertEarl (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:58 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

7. Can everyone really have better health care under single payer?

What if somebody now has a Cadillac insurance plan and is now forced to go onto a "Medicare for all" plan which a doctor might not accept?

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:03 PM

RobertEarl (13,685 posts)

14. You pay more for a cadillac

Bernie won't stop that. But with a reformed health care industry even the cadillac plan will cost less. And if a doctor refuses the single payer concept he will soon be out of practice.

I get you hate the idea of better health care for poor people, heck that's an H policy, but really, why shout it out here?

Reply to this post

Response to RobertEarl (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:07 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

22. not really

I'm sure there are lots of doctors who would be happy to stay out of the single payer system and lots of (rich) patients who are willing to pay cash.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:16 PM

RobertEarl (13,685 posts)

31. Lots of rich patients?

You mean like the Clintons?

That is a small pie. Besides I bet the Clintons have gotten lots of free government health care.

I just don't get why anyone would actively shoot down better health care for everyone, but there you are.

Reply to this post

Response to RobertEarl (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:19 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

38. I'm just saying

there are two contradictory promises that Sanders make:

(1) The entire system saves money
(2) Everybody gets better coverage (same access to doctors, no co-pay, no deductibles, all drugs/procedures covered)

Hence he isn't being honest.

If you try to control costs by cutting payments to providers, there are probably some who will just decide to opt into a private insurance system. Call it "premium" network. There are actually lots of rich people who don't want to go to the same hospital as "other people".

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:25 PM

RobertEarl (13,685 posts)

46. And you are on their side?

Not the "other people"

Meanwhile kids whose parents can't afford any health care - the "other people" - have no other recourse than hope like hell Bernie defeats your candidate.

You really are quite f'n wrong here. You should just stop.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:28 PM

Ron Green (9,664 posts)

50. It's going to take some time, but it's a fact that

a universal, one-risk-pool system will cover more people with better care for lower cost.

My health care is free (I'm a disabled vet, and I get the best care.) So why do I support paying into a tax-based system?

I'll let you see if you can answer that.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:26 PM

arcane1 (38,613 posts)

76. You're not being honest, and you keep playing this game in thread after thread.

There's a saying from middle school boy's restrooms: If you shake it more than twice, you're playing with yourself.

You have shaken it hundreds of times at this point.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 08:26 AM

GeorgeGist (24,725 posts)

89. Should we end public schools because ...

some rich folks send their kids to private schools?

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:05 PM

Voice for Peace (13,141 posts)

16. Do some research

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:06 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

20. The US healthcare system is ranked 37th in the world.

Behind the countries that have single payer.
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

So if you are happy with a ranking of 37, perhaps you are in the 1% and have no worries. But for the rest of us, this profit driven system is a mess.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:44 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

59. Supplementary insurance will no doubt continue to exist (at a price), under Medicare for All, as it

does now under Medicare for All. And the cadillac plan tax, which I have always found outrageous, may not apply under Medicare for All.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:57 PM

Agnosticsherbet (11,619 posts)

5. Because they need to justify their faith in the Bern. nt

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:57 PM

restorefreedom (12,655 posts)

6. they get to decide what THEY stand for

bernie is running on a very progressive plan, and many of us support that. some dems will run on another plan, and you free to support that instead.

and thus, the primary battle

but to your point, many of us feel that the party has been sliding right for some time on several issues. the progressive left would like to shift it back left. also, a deeper contrast with republicans may help win the ge.

no one is telling you how to think. we all argue our points, its what we do here

cheers

Reply to this post

Response to restorefreedom (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:58 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

10. then why are so many people calling

Clinton a Republican?

She seems to represent mainstream Democratic Party platform

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:10 PM

Voice for Peace (13,141 posts)

25. Mainstream democratic platform is to not raise any taxes on uber-upper-upper

upper-upper-middle class?

That's it? Thats what the party stands for?

Reply to this post

Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:20 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

39. yes if you listen to Obama and Clinton

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:34 PM

Voice for Peace (13,141 posts)

54. Ok if you are satisfied with that.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

restorefreedom (12,655 posts)

41. the mainstream party platform

as some see it, has drifted so far to the center/center right, some policies approximate policies of centrist leaning or more "liberal" republicans.

one example that is important to me...the death penalty. i think it should be a basic plank of the dem platform that this just is not the way to handle criminals in a civilized society. unfortunately, the dem platform does not have that position. i know many dems support it, but i would like to see the party as a whole come out against it. individual dems can do what they want if they want to hold a different position. and we know that repubs are all for it.

many feel that centrist positions are better because most people are neither very left not very right. i think with the popularity of sanders and trump, we are seeing people drift more to the "pure" party philosophy on both sides. so clinton, who tends to inhabit the more center area of the party, might be seen as closer to some republican ideals than left leaning progressive dems.

personally, i am not a big fan of party labels anyway.what people stand for matters most.

just my two cents.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:26 PM

cascadiance (19,537 posts)

49. So, when does supporting H-1B quotas make her representing "mainstream Democratic Party platform"?

Her last statement on that 8 years ago was supporting it the way companies like Tata paid her to do so, NOT what her human American Democratic Party constituents wanted!!!

Heck, even candidates like Trump and Cruz get that people want this, even if they are also trying to conflate that with their xenophobic "product" too.

THAT is why Bloomberg is threatening to enter the race almost the same day he says he wants to get rid of H-1B visa limits, to let the corporate world know that he'd be the one that represents THEIR interests if Hillary can't be there to do so against Trump or Cruz. If it is Bernie against one of those two, those depending on those 1%er socialist benefits to themselves will lose out when H-1B gets pushed aside for better immigration and temporary work options to help the working class globally than their race to the bottom mantras.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:58 PM

sadoldgirl (3,431 posts)

8. Because there is a huge difference

between Democrats and "New Democrats.

That "new Democrat" definition came from
Bill Clinton.

Perhaps the old kind of Democrats showed more
sense for helping most people.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:58 PM

Dawson Leery (19,296 posts)

9. His supporters have hijacked social media

to push the right wing smear that Hillary is corrupt and untrustworthy. The polling shows that most of his supporters will NOT accept Hillary as the nominee. Why? Because they are militant and will demand their way or no way.

Reply to this post

Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:04 PM

Matariki (18,775 posts)

15. Hillary supporters don't know how to use social media?

Or perhaps there just aren't as many of them as we're led to believe?

I just really don't get that complaint. And that 'smear' isn't being 'pushed' as much as it's simply, and unfortunately, the impression that many people have of her. She seems to change her stance according to polls, not according to convictions. People notice that.

Reply to this post

Response to Matariki (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

NanceGreggs (27,415 posts)

44. We've seen how BS supporters "use" social media ...

... like swarming the FaceBook pages of any Democrat who endorses HRC, and leaving vile comments about their mental state, their loyalty to their fellow Democrats, their willingness to "sell out" their country - all because they had the audacity to support someone other than Bernie.

As they say, "that's gonna leave a mark" - and it has. I won't forget what was said to progressive icons like John Lewis any time soon.

Reply to this post

Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:19 PM

The Velveteen Ocelot (101,680 posts)

35. How is it possible to "hijack" social media?

The great thing about social media is that everybody gets to use it. All you need is an Internet connection, which just about everybody has these days. Want to get your opinion out there? Just for starters there's Facebook, Twitter, reddit, Youtube, and a zillion blogs. Using them is cheap (free, usually) and easy. Nobody can monopolize social media. Don't like it that Bernie's supporters have a huge presence on the Internet? What's stopping you and the other Hillary supporters from getting out there and talking her up, too? The Internet is where it's happening now, so maybe Hillary's folks need to get with the program. Don't blame Sanders' folks for using all available resources.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:59 PM

hrmjustin (71,265 posts)

11. They don't.

I am a proud Democrat and if they doubt me I don't give a damn!

Reply to this post

Response to hrmjustin (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 01:31 AM

Number23 (24,544 posts)

83. + a million

And never have.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:00 PM

2pooped2pop (5,420 posts)

12. because they act like

what democrats are suppose to stand for. I guess that got lost somewhere along the way.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:00 PM

Matariki (18,775 posts)

13. We do?!?

Yay!!! Good DOES prevail!!

Reply to this post

Response to Matariki (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:06 PM

MissDeeds (7,499 posts)

18. + 1000

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:06 PM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

17. BECAUSE REVOLUTION!!!!! * * except for reparations

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:09 PM

Dawson Leery (19,296 posts)

24. +1,000,000

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:10 PM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

26. You want reparations?

How would that work?

Reply to this post

Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:15 PM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

28. Yes of course, national baseline funding for 1 - 12 free room and board for college

... and all sentences cut into 25% of their time with voting abilities restored.

Not a dime extra is spent

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:25 PM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

47. How do you decide who gets reparations?

Reply to this post

Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:33 PM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

53. Those directly effected by Jim Crow, War on drugs, native American genocide and stupid

... republicans.

Not that hard, that's the low hanging fruit,

Either way, revolution with an asterisk by it isn't revolution

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:38 PM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

80. So you decide what "revolution" means. Got it.

Good luck with getting Clinton to go along with reparations, although you do make it sound easy.

Reply to this post

Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 05:12 AM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

84. Wait, isn't that EXACTLY what Sanders is doing?! Defining what revolution for everyone

... else by clinging to a set of left wing tenants and then being pragmatic on others like reparations?!

Revolution with an asterisk isn't revolution

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #84)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 10:14 AM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

93. He's the candidate. All his proposals have a funding mechanism.

Reparations has no funding mechanism and is a non-starter.

It's odd how you keep harping on reparations when none of our candidates are supporting them.

You seem to have an all-or-nothing approach but have settled on a candidate who says and promises nothing. Odd.

Reply to this post

Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #93)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 11:35 AM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

96. Reparations does have a funding mechanism, that's false.. and like I've said about Sanders he

... has an all or nothing approach to and have chided others for compromising calling them rightward and weak before for compromising.

Its starting to look like Sanders throws stones and lives in a glass house now

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #96)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:07 PM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

97. Why do you support a candidate who does not agree with your demands?

At least Sanders supports free tuition (not room and board) for public colleges and universities. You'll get closer to what you want with Sanders, nothing from Clinton.

And how would the reparations you want be funded?

Reply to this post

Response to Qutzupalotl (Reply #97)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:23 PM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

98. She's not the revolution candidate, why are we going over this again?

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:32 PM

Qutzupalotl (12,838 posts)

99. You listed a bunch of things you wanted, yet your candidate does not support any of it.

What's up with that?

Reply to this post

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:37 PM

beam me up scottie (57,349 posts)

55. Then why isn't Hillary supporting them?

Reply to this post

Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:41 PM

uponit7771 (86,949 posts)

57. She's not the revolution candidate Sanders is, she's not sticking herself with that title

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:07 PM

7wo7rees (4,862 posts)

21. Hill2016, I am sorry but most of what we've seen of your

most recent posts, we hold under suspicion.

Soiry. Just do.

Reply to this post

Response to 7wo7rees (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:16 PM

Bobbie Jo (14,341 posts)

29. Who is "we?"

Is there a committee involved?

Reply to this post

Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:18 PM

7wo7rees (4,862 posts)

33. Both of us. Mr and Ms 7wo7rees, mkay? nt

Reply to this post

Response to 7wo7rees (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

Bobbie Jo (14,341 posts)

42. Hookay.

I just get suspicious when someone uses the presumptuous "we" so freely.

Sorry, just do...

Reply to this post

Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 01:06 PM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

104. Yep

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:08 PM

lumberjack_jeff (33,224 posts)

23. "no new taxes" is something democrats stand for? Like a foundational principle?

I can accept reasonable people disagreeing on if they are necessary or how much is required, but the country already has a party dedicated to being cheap.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:14 PM

morningfog (18,115 posts)

27. Because we are Democrats and we vote. Get used to it.

Reply to this post

Response to morningfog (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:16 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

30. but you don't get to call other the Democratic frontrunner

"conservative" or "Republican".

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:19 PM

morningfog (18,115 posts)

34. Sure we do. Especially when they attack from the right.

This is the primary. This is when our party platform is defined. We are in a contest to define where we stand.

Reply to this post

Response to morningfog (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:21 PM

hill2016 (1,772 posts)

40. what if the majority of party voters

like the mainstream platform, thank you very much?

You going to call all of them conservative?

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

morningfog (18,115 posts)

43. If the platform ends up conservative of course I will call it out.

This is not complicated stuff.

Reply to this post

Response to morningfog (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 08:31 AM

VulgarPoet (2,872 posts)

90. You forget we're not supposed to go against who the establishment picks out for us, remember?

eom

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:17 PM

merrily (45,251 posts)

32. Deciding who is a real Dem? You mean, like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1073022

Or your own OP? Raising taxes suddenly has a party now and, surprise, surprise, it's not the Democratic Party?

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:19 PM

neverforget (9,400 posts)

37. Are you afraid you're going to lose your nanny, housekeeper and private school?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251860815

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

Proud Public Servant (2,097 posts)

45. "His supporters" include

1 in every 3 registered Democrats. Bernie's not the problem. The problem is that fully 1/3 of the party ain't buying what the Beltway Establishment is selling.

We belong to a party in crisis -- one that can't win Congress, can't win state houses, can't win state legislatures. We have not found a way to connect with people, and it shows everywhere except the presidency. Blaming Bernie for illustrating this fact is just like blaming the kid in the fairy tale for finally pointing out that the emperor is buck naked.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:25 PM

PoliticAverse (26,366 posts)

48. And Obama broke his promise in order to fund the ACA. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:29 PM

WillyT (72,631 posts)

51. Because Some Of Us Have Been Democrats For Decades... And Haven't Forgotten What A Real One Is...

Others have forgotten, and let others suffer as long as THEY are alright.

Reply to this post

Response to WillyT (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:54 PM

The Velveteen Ocelot (101,680 posts)

62. I remember Lyndon Johnson and the "Great Society."

Although he handled the Viet Nam war badly, he was a Democrat of the same ilk as FDR when it came to domestic policy. He promoted legislation upholding civil rights, public broadcasting, Medicare, Medicaid, aid to education, the arts, urban and rural development, public services, and the "War on Poverty," which helped millions rise above the poverty line. Civil rights laws he signed banned racial discrimination in public facilities, interstate commerce, the workplace, and housing, and the Voting Rights Act banned procedures that disenfranchised African Americans. Of course, Johnson had a Democratic majority in Congress. But I don't see any big ideas like the Great Society or the War on Poverty coming out of Clinton's campaign - just those Church Lady reminders that we can't have those things any more. "You can't have a bicycle for Christmas but if you're good and eat your peas maybe you'll get some new underwear." Sanders is a visionary; Clinton is just an ordinary politician.

Reply to this post

Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:05 PM

WillyT (72,631 posts)

67. Yep... 'This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things...'

Reply to this post

Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:16 PM

catnhatnh (8,976 posts)

73. LBJ was within months of a peace treaty in Vietnam

when Richard Nixon committed treason to help his election chances:
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/08/12/george-will-confirms-nixons-vietnam-treason

Reply to this post

Response to catnhatnh (Reply #73)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:18 PM

The Velveteen Ocelot (101,680 posts)

74. Yeah, there was that.

Nixon was an evil bastard, for sure. On the other hand, there was the very dodgy Gulf of Tonkin incident during Johnson's administration.

Reply to this post

Response to WillyT (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:43 PM

jillan (39,437 posts)

102. THIS!! Spot on WillyT!

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:33 PM

Efilroft Sul (3,169 posts)

52. Except $250,000 per year sure doesn't seem like "middle class."

Sure, you can pull out charts saying here is this strata of income and there is that strata of income and the cost of living is so much more in this part of the country than in another, but seriously, if your annual income exceeds the Social Security cap but is still less than $250,000, you'll probably survive if your taxes went up. Someone can cry me a river if they're in that group; they've been riding the gravy train for quite a while now.

To put it another way, Wall Street-friendly Clinton supporters don't get to redefine what "middle class" is. Those of us who are still in it or who used to be in it know what it is. And it sure as hell isn't a $250,000-per-year income.

Reply to this post

Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:45 PM

Hoyt (54,770 posts)

60. $250,000 is pretty high. But there are a lot of good Democrats making that.

So I can understand trying not to tick them off right now.

Reply to this post

Response to Hoyt (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:49 PM

Efilroft Sul (3,169 posts)

61. If they were good Democrats, they wouldn't complain like Republicans.

I get where you're coming from, but to placate this minority of Democrats doesn't sit well with the rabble.

Reply to this post

Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #61)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:01 PM

Hoyt (54,770 posts)

65. I agree, sounds a bit greedy.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:10 PM

TheProgressive (1,656 posts)

69. Change 'mainstream' to 'establishment'...there you go...!

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:13 PM

SidDithers (44,228 posts)

71. They don't...nt

Sid

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:16 PM

DavidDvorkin (18,586 posts)

72. Because they are so frightfully ideologically pure compared to the rest of us.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:26 PM

Armymedic88 (251 posts)

77. You'll find out why over the next 3 months why we get to decide!!! ;)

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:28 PM

FreakinDJ (17,644 posts)

78. Who says Hillary stands for Democratic policies

Protecting Wall St Banks over Main St Workers seems to be off policy

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:32 PM

RichVRichV (885 posts)

79. You don't get to decide what the party stands for.

I don't get to decide what the party stands for.

The leaders of the party don't get to decide what the party stands for.

The politicians don't get to decide what the party stands for.

Only the Democratic voters as a whole get to decide what the party stands for. Here in a few months we'll know just what that is. If it's a continuation of where the party is headed or a change of direction, it's up to the voters and no one else. That's why the people we elect are called representatives.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:39 PM

HassleCat (6,409 posts)

81. 35 years of frustration.

That's how long we have been offered Democratic candidates who support Reagan's ideas.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:48 AM

R B Garr (16,442 posts)

82. Same way RW extremists like to dictate what a "patriot' is

Its just a phony superiority complex.

Reply to this post

Response to R B Garr (Reply #82)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 08:07 AM

NurseJackie (42,862 posts)

88. Thank you! That was the phrase I was going to use ...

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 05:23 AM

Kentonio (4,377 posts)

85. If your key reason for voting Democrat is keeping taxes low for $250k earners

Then this is indeed a battle for the soul of the Democratic party. The good thing about it though is that both sides get to make their case and see how has the most support. If you want the party to be centrist then all you have to do is convince more voters that is the best future for them and their families.

Good luck.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 05:30 AM

Fearless (18,421 posts)

86. You would be wrong. On a great many things for that matter.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 06:04 AM

leftynyc (26,060 posts)

87. They don't

They just piously think they do. Ignore them. I still remember what happened to the last Democratic candidate that promised to raise taxes. He got slaughtered.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 08:31 AM

NCTraveler (30,481 posts)

91. I'm a progressive. I'm a democrat.

They can call me what they want. And they have. Lol

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 08:33 AM

Vinca (48,588 posts)

92. What a puzzling post.

Not raising taxes is a GOP mantra. Democrats have more common sense. If your insurance policy costs $10,000 a year but you can drop it if you pay $5,000 more in taxes for Medicare-For-All, isn't that a good deal?

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 10:34 AM

whatchamacallit (15,558 posts)

94. I get to decide what I stand for as a democrat, therefore

this Bernie supporter decides what a democrat stands for. Hope that helps.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 10:55 AM

democrank (10,364 posts)

95. Seriously?

"Middle class" includes those who make $249,000 a year? Even though the median income for 2015 was about $53,657? This is part of the "mainstream" Democratic Party platform? Just asking....

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:35 PM

Autumn (41,722 posts)

100. Are you saying blue dogs aka DINOs should be the ones to decide what a Democrat stands for?

Bernie is more of a Democrat than they will ever be.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 12:51 PM

whatthehey (3,660 posts)

103. Strange in this large thread the real answer got only a passing, dismissive "answer"

The platform is voted on by grassroots-elected local delegates, chosen democratically in a way completely free from corporate funding or media manipulation from among those who have done the grunt work at the local level for years. If you want to decide what the party stands for, do the damn work within it until you are elected as a delegate by your peers.

Reply to this post

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Thu Jan 28, 2016, 07:55 AM

hobbit709 (41,694 posts)

106. Look in the mirror when you ask that question.

Reply to this post

2016 Postmortem (Forum)

Why do Bernie/his supporters get to decide what a Democrat stands for?

1. Because the repubs have already claimed most of NoHope Hillary's policies.

19. CrazyPants Sander's policies are very different from NoHope Hillary's. n/t

56. Another Sanders supporter heard from!

64. Yep. I respect him for his ideas

66. IIRC, you said he was your choice to win this primary.

68. You are correct. He's been my choice from the beginning.

36. Isn't that what the Sanders campaign is really about

2. Because we have better

101. RIGHT ON, DUDE !!!

3. The no true Scotsman fallacy

58. From both Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters.

63. Links to HRC supporters stating that

70. Who said the No True Scotsman fallacy applies only to supporters? There have been many threads and

75. Your examples are not the fallacy I was referencing

105. You mentioned "not real ("true") Democrats." My links were indeed relevant to that.

4. More taxes means

7. Can everyone really have better health care under single payer?

14. You pay more for a cadillac

22. not really

31. Lots of rich patients?

38. I'm just saying

46. And you are on their side?

50. It's going to take some time, but it's a fact that

76. You're not being honest, and you keep playing this game in thread after thread.

89. Should we end public schools because ...

16. Do some research

20. The US healthcare system is ranked 37th in the world.

59. Supplementary insurance will no doubt continue to exist (at a price), under Medicare for All, as it

5. Because they need to justify their faith in the Bern. nt

6. they get to decide what THEY stand for

10. then why are so many people calling

25. Mainstream democratic platform is to not raise any taxes on uber-upper-upper

39. yes if you listen to Obama and Clinton

54. Ok if you are satisfied with that.

41. the mainstream party platform

49. So, when does supporting H-1B quotas make her representing "mainstream Democratic Party platform"?

8. Because there is a huge difference

9. His supporters have hijacked social media

15. Hillary supporters don't know how to use social media?

44. We've seen how BS supporters "use" social media ...

35. How is it possible to "hijack" social media?

11. They don't.

83. + a million

12. because they act like

13. We do?!?

18. + 1000

17. BECAUSE REVOLUTION!!!!! *** *** except for reparations

24. +1,000,000

26. You want reparations?

28. Yes of course, national baseline funding for 1 - 12 free room and board for college

47. How do you decide who gets reparations?

53. Those directly effected by Jim Crow, War on drugs, native American genocide and stupid

80. So you decide what "revolution" means. Got it.

84. Wait, isn't that EXACTLY what Sanders is doing?! Defining what revolution for everyone

93. He's the candidate. All his proposals have a funding mechanism.

96. Reparations does have a funding mechanism, that's false.. and like I've said about Sanders he

97. Why do you support a candidate who does not agree with your demands?

98. She's not the revolution candidate, why are we going over this again?

99. You listed a bunch of things you wanted, yet your candidate does not support any of it.

55. Then why isn't Hillary supporting them?

57. She's not the revolution candidate Sanders is, she's not sticking herself with that title

21. Hill2016, I am sorry but most of what we've seen of your

29. Who is "we?"

33. Both of us. Mr and Ms 7wo7rees, mkay? nt

42. Hookay.

104. Yep

23. "no new taxes" is something democrats stand for? Like a foundational principle?

27. Because we are Democrats and we vote. Get used to it.

30. but you don't get to call other the Democratic frontrunner

34. Sure we do. Especially when they attack from the right.

40. what if the majority of party voters

43. If the platform ends up conservative of course I will call it out.

90. You forget we're not supposed to go against who the establishment picks out for us, remember?

32. Deciding who is a real Dem? You mean, like this?

37. Are you afraid you're going to lose your nanny, housekeeper and private school?

45. "His supporters" include

48. And Obama broke his promise in order to fund the ACA. n/t

51. Because Some Of Us Have Been Democrats For Decades... And Haven't Forgotten What A Real One Is...

62. I remember Lyndon Johnson and the "Great Society."

17. BECAUSE REVOLUTION!!!!! * * except for reparations