2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat Sectors of the Private Economy Does Sanders Approve of?
He rails against the oil and gas industry, wants to eliminate the entire private insurance industry, break up the big banks, raise taxes on wall street speculation, and more generally speaks of corporate America with a derisive sneer. Not to defend corporate America at all, but while Sander's interest in economic justice and his hatred of the "billionaire class" is very clear, his views about how wealth is actually generated and how economic growth happens are very, very unclear. In an interview back when he first announced h said the following:
In interview with CNBC way back in May, Sanders said the following:
HARWOOD: If the changes that you envision in tax policy, in finance, breaking up the banks, were to result in a more equitable distribution of income, but less economic growth, is that trade-off worth making?
SANDERS: Yes. If 99 percent of all the new income goes to the top 1 percent, you could triple it, it wouldn't matter much to the average middle class person. The whole size of the economy and the GDP doesn't matter if people continue to work longer hours for low wages and you have 45 million people living in poverty. You can't just continue growth for the sake of growth in a world in which we are struggling with climate change and all kinds of environmental problems. All right? You don't necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country. I don't think the media appreciates the kind of stress that ordinary Americans are working on. People scared to death about what happens tomorrow. Half the people in America have less than $10,000 in savings. How do you like that? That means you have an automobile accident, you have an illness, you're broke. How do you retire if you have less than $10,000, and you don't have much in the way of Social Security?
The guy really does seem like he wants to convert the US Economy into a European economy. Many European economies have very large safety-nets, far less economic inequality, and higher marginal tax rates, and a broader range of taxes -- think things like VAT gasoline taxes, etc. But European economies are, for the most part, far less dynamic than the US economy, with much lower growth.
It's not an unreasonable thing to want to trade economic growth for economic justice. But personally, I want an economy that is both just and dynamic. A just economy without growth would not be a pretty sight. You think unemployment is bad at times in America, compare historical rates of American unemployment with historical rates of unemployment in much of Europe. Not a pretty picture. On the other hand, a growing economy without justice is not a pretty sight either. It concentrates more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer.
But call me naive, I want a political economic vision that promises to reconciles economic dynamism and social justice. That's what democrats should be standing for. We shouldn't be poo-pooing growth in the way that Sanders does. In America, which has been long distinguished by its economic dynamism, that's a losing proposition. It's no basis for a revolution. It's a basis for defeat.
Growth matters. Justice matters. We democrats can deliver both. To say that we can't have both and that we have to chose between them is a false dichotomy.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Yes, that's been our party's thinking for 35 years, so I don't blame you for buying into it.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you don't care about wealth creation and economic growth? You think that's a winning combination?
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)They just don't grow at the expense of the working class and middle class.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)no one is in jail. no trials. Fuck our economy and its meat grinder ways.
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)So fuck all that stupid shit. People are dying, children are starving while people have fucking car elevators and fleets of private jets. Completely sickening that anyone would think that is ok.
Fearless
(18,458 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)Back into the economy creating growth. We have no growth because the money is going to the top, to people who already have everything. It's not rocket science. Demand is created when people spend. When people have no money to spend there is NO growth.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)alittlelark
(19,143 posts)'nuf said.....
unc70
(6,514 posts)A long (boring to me) post tonight just won't be effective. Get some sleep and try posting again tomorrow.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Social justice can easily be understood. Fair business operations that include fair pay, recognize unions, compete by NOT taking their operations to the Cayman Islands to avoid paying fair taxes ... THESE are the issues.... not whether those businesses are private.
You need to catch up on what he's saying. Go back and listen to the stump speeches on the campaign trail. This isn't anything but fair operations that are not meant to drain the worker and their rights. If you think that's a European model, then you need to explain why that is.
Business growth is good, but when everything goes to those who syphon off the top and give nothing back to the community is not good.
Do you understand that?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)talk about how economic growth happens or how to create wealth. i betcha if yoo polled millions of Americans few would have any idea of how he purports to grow the economy. shouldn't have to go digging for that.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)You proved the point that many haven't heard him.
Imagine if they all did!
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)reserved for governments.
dogman
(6,073 posts)"eliminate the entire private insurance industry" - Only the over taxing of health care for a few beneficiaries.
How would the flow of more money to a very few create growth? That is trickle down economics, it's a lie. He understands that, you apparently choose to believe the failed Reagan policy is better.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)he wants there to be a single provider of health insurance, eliminating private health insurance industry.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Hardly the entire private insurance industry, hence hyperbole. The health insurance industry creates one product, higher health care costs. It serves no other purpose.
Dawson Leery
(19,582 posts)ecstatic
(35,135 posts)and sneakers. Is that wrong?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)investing our infrastructure. So that's something on the economic growth side.
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