Michael Moore comment on Iowa results:

[dixiegrrrrl]

An elderly Jewish socialist, whose avg contrib is $27, ends up in a TIE w/ 1 of the most famous political figures of the past 3 decades. Wow

https://twitter.com/MMFlint

[Hortensis]

1. I'm angry with Michael Moore, but who can disagree

with this. Wow for Bernie.

As for Moore, he was instrumental before in putting W in the White House. Let's just hope no one ever gets to post his comment on the election of a President Ted Cruz. I suspect that could make W's administrations seem like the good old days.

Again, I don't believe in gambling with the welfare of over 300 million people.

[cali]

2. Either do I. That's why I opposed Hillary for years before this

primary got underway. It's also why I support Bernie.

[marble falls]

24. Thankyou, Cali!

[Cary]

42. This is the difference between you and I

You "oppose Hillary Clinton" and you feel justified in propagating "conservative" smears and lies.

By contrast I could not care less who was elected president as long as they work legally, within the system, to further the Democratic agenda.

I don't expect perfection. Nor do I expect, in reality, much actual difference between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Both will be constrained by "conservatives" because our government was designed that way and like it or not they are part of our body politic.

So I see no point in spreading discord and discontent about Democrats. I find that to be counterproductive. It is much more useful to find the positives and push forward than all of the bitcbing and moaning.

[Cary]

44. And make no mistake, "conservatism" is a dangerous ideology

They are the enemy. You take your eye off that ball.

[Hortensis]

53. Good posts, good sense.

[Cary]

64. Thanks Hortensis...

Yes, it comes down to us or them. There is no in between because that's not how our system works.

And this election is critical. Sanders or Clinton, they will appoint good judges. "Conservatives" will appoint more Scalias, Thomas', Alitos, and Roberts'. We cannot afford that.

[Hortensis]

75. I was recently reading about Cruz's peculiar

fondness for executions and aversion to clemency.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

147. A political revolution or a real one

that's how it might end.

[Firebrand Gary]

146. I heart you.

[flamingdem]

160. Thanks for the logic Cary! nt

[cali]

46. Codswallop. I criticize her from the left.

[Cary]

58. You're being played.

[kenfrequed]

65. What exactly are you suggesting

I am a left wing democrat and a Bernie supporter. The left has gotten very little real love from the Democratic party. Finally we have a standard bearer that is willing to stand up to the corporations (and who I actually believe will do so) and you say we are the ones being played.


This is bad comedy on your part.

[Cary]

66. Actually it's bad comedy on your part

Spend some time with "conservatives." Listen to what they're saying and what they want to convince of. Look at their tactics and then tell me how you're not playing right into them.

[kenfrequed]

83. Garbage

You offer nothing but sly insinuation. I am sorry but the polices that Bernie support, that progressives support, and that I support are in direction opposition to conservative bullshit.

What you are peddling is nonsense. I am not in a purchasing mood.

[Cary]

84. That isn't what I am telling you

But I don't expect you to understand.

[Hortensis]

86. No. That's not what is meant.

Why not examine your actions for anything that would please people trying to get an extreme conservative elected? It is completely possible to support Bernie without without inadvertently supporting his enemies.

[Cary]

108. When someone doesn't want to understand,

Last edited Tue Feb 2, 2016, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

they never will.

That's what we are dealing with, people who refuse to discuss anything in good faith. It's their way or they take their ball and go home.

[Hortensis]

112. Yes, but when OTHERS drop by, they have to

be able to find some rationality, insight into what is happening in the races, and maybe even a fact or two. It is called Democratic Underground, after all.

When I'm irritated into behaving badly, I just start swatting bugs, but sometimes I remember that this political stuff is supposed to include a good deed for the day, make a contribution to the political process, not just be another form of self indulgence.

You earned a gold star for your forehead.

[ornotna]

118. It's their way or they take their ball and go home.

Did you mean here - http://hillaryclintonsupporters.com/forum/

[Cary]

123. Is that how you see it?

Would you rather I tell you what you want to hear, or would you expand your horizons and try to understand a different perspective? You aren't the majority, and I have no confidence that you are the least bit curious.

[ornotna]

127. It's not so much how I see it

It's how you present it. You are the one being strident and unwilling to give and take.

[Cary]

130. There you go with that stupid "It's your own fault that I abuse you" ploy

You never learn

[ornotna]

135. So now I'm abusing you

I don't even know how to react to that one.

You have a good night, good bye.

[Hortensis]

171. I mean both visitors and quiet DU members who

draw their own conclusions without comment.

[frylock]

94. We spend time with conservatives with their conservative candidate and their conservative ideas..

here all day.

[Autumn]

101. .

[Cary]

107. Got it

You're telling me that you're not someone I need to take seriously, and I don't.

[frylock]

110. I'm hurt.

[Champion Jack]

153. or you are

[Cary]

155. Your desperate ploy only reinforces my conclusion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251379299

Try being accountable.

[Hortensis]

173. Oh, VERY SIGNIFICANT POST, Cary. Sadly, GOP goals are still

being well served on DU by the peculiar contingent clustered here who embrace the strategy that the enemies of their enemy (Hillary, of course) are their friends.

But not by all of us by a long shot. Here're some notes from just yesterday:

Right Wing Round-Up - 2/2/16
PFAW: People For the American Way Calls on Trump to Return Contribution from White Nationalist.

Media Matters: Ted Cruz Thanks His Extremist Media Endorsers During Iowa Victory Speech.

Travis Gettys @ Raw Story: Ted Cruz teams up with Duggar-loving singing troupe to kill public education.

Alan Colmes: US Christians facing a discriminatory tax?

Tommy Christopher @ Mediaite: Ted Cruz Just Lying About Stupid Stuff Now.

Joe Jervis: Hate Pastor: Foreclosure On My Church Is Illegal Because We’re Exempt From Paying Bills.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/right-wing-round-2216

[Cary]

175. I don't believe that sociopathic behavior here is political

It's just malicious. That's all. Plain old malicious and that pathology found a home.

[Hortensis]

177. We have our share, but after living most of

my adult life in strongly conservative communities (should never have left West Hollywood!), I can say that this kind of hostile, aggressive hyperpartisanship is extremely normal on the right, and now as we see the far left is prone to it too.

I'd always suspected the extremes of both were more like each other than moderates of their orientation, and we see that. The TPers are famous now for their unwillingness to compromise and, in fact, willingness to fail rather than compromise; and our own contingent of extremists, of probably both left and right, here would be willing to hand the nation to the GOP before the presidency to Hillary.

There are differences, radical leftists not motivated by extreme xenophobia as the right is, but both share an extreme intolerance of everyone who is not with them and every idea that does not fit their picture. Thus, even mentioning Michael Moore and Nader become challenges to their current hero that must be put down.

[Cary]

178. it's sad but not new

I think about 30% of the population is sociopathic. There is no cure but you are safe enough on an anonymous board. They aren't in any position to hurt anyone in real life.

[Hortensis]

179. Are you thinking of the dark triad/cluster B thing?

Or right- and left-wing authoritarians and social conservatives setting their consciences aside and attacking in packs? And, yes, I take comfort in anonymity, as no doubt online predators do too...

[Fearless]

119. Ohhh the "common sense" and "safe bet" memes!!

Guess what.. The country isn't made better by taking a right turn. Hillary is to the RIGHT of Bernie. Full stop. Let that sink in. And we'll talk afterward.

[Cary]

121. Words are cheap

I don't see you going anywhere any time soon.

[Fearless]

144. Good luck with that.

[arely staircase]

142. He is way to the right of her on guns. nt

[Fearless]

143. That is false.

[George II]

152. In that case....how about this?

[one_voice]

120. I understand what you're saying...

like you I have no desire to see or use the same tactics or smears that the right use against EITHER of our candidates.

I have no problem with criticizing or questioning either a sitting president or a democratic candidate. But I want no parts of looking like attack dogs.

Pointing out that either candidate will have problems with congress is not a freakin' battle cry. How about discussing how we can get better people elected down ballot instead of the typical my candidate..blah blah blah...

In the end we need to beat them...they are the enemy--figuratively.

[Cary]

122. Yep

[PeaceNikki]

140. FYI

Automated Message
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

This is the difference between you and I
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1120259

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

this post is hurtful, rude, insenstiave, and over-the-top ! direct insults, no substance.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:47 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Well stated by Cary. Alerter, you are ridiculous.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "bitcbing," although not a word, seems like an attempt at very offensive, arguably (attempted) misognynistic talk. Let us have no more talk of "bitcbing" in our forum. Please take this "bitcbing" talk elsewhere.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While the post is aggressive it serves the posts point and I don't PERSONALLY see it as too problematic. Yes its aggressive and a bit cruel maybe, but its just hard line debate. The Clinton and Sanders voters are going to be struggling with great fury for the next few days. Its best to let grievances air, and this wasn't unacceptable IMHO.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Post is fine. I do find the irony about a Clinton supporter being positive amusing though.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I vehemently disagree with this alert. This is a factual, well-written, reasonable and truthful reply that many here should really take to heart.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Cary]

145. Thank you so much

Refreshing to see this.

[George II]

150. Sad that the only "hide" vote dwelled on a typo! And "misognynistic"? Well............

[Cary]

170. Petty, isn't it?

[mdbl]

148. I have to disagree with the statement....

"Nor do I expect, in reality, much actual difference between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Both will be constrained by conservatives" because our government was designed that way and like it or not they are part of our body politic."

I expect Bernie to veto, I expect Hillary to triangulate. I hope I'm wrong, but it's been happening since she became a senator, and she's been walking that talk for a while now.

[Cary]

151. Either one will have to take what they can get

Just like PBO.

Are you of the idea that Republican obstruction has been his fault?

[eridani]

4. Clinton is the gamble, given that she is not mobilizing the 63% n/t

[Ivan Kaputski]

93. "gamble" like the 6 times a flip of the coin in Iowa gave it to Hillary?

What are the chances of that. Maybe I should invest in the manufacturing of double headed coins.

[valerief]

103. The double-headed coins we have now are called electronic voting machines.

[Ivan Kaputski]

104. I thought Microshit was making them now.

[valerief]

105. Ha! Microshit. Love it. nt

[CBGLuthier]

5. The Supreme Court put W in the WH. Gore won the election. He was cheated.

If you are going to blame MM for Bush you may as well blame Bill Clinton's messy love life because that sure as fuck cost some votes too.

[Enthusiast]

16. Oh, yeah?

How were we supposed to have a 9/11, Iraq War and an economic collapse (massive theft) without Bush?

Obviously the election results were planned and carried out by the man (men) behind the curtain. The Bush presidency was an operation.

Courtesy of TPTB.

[Raster]

33. Thank you! I am SO FUCKING TIRED of the Nader did it bullshit, I could scream!

The Bush* pResidency WAS an operation! The fix was in, and every time we perpetuate the meme that it was Nader's fault, we allow the Brooks Brothers putsch to meld back into fuzzy memory and achieve just another sliver of legitimacy.

FACT: The electoral malfeasance in Florida began long before the first ballot was ever cast. Tens of Thousands of LEGITIMATE, LAWFUL, presumed Democratic voters were systematically removed from the Florida voter roles. Democratic-leaning districts and precincts were specifically targeted.

FACT: Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, was also the Statewide Co-Chair for the Committee to Elect Bush* and Cheney* and actually ran much of the Bush*/Cheney* Florida campaign from her Tallahassee office. Harris controlled the Florida electoral infrastructure and time-after-time ensured that all interpretations of Florida electoral law favored Bush* and Cheney*.

The legitimate list of GOP electoral dirty tricks and voting shenanigans in Florida in 2000 is long and detailed. But no where on that list is the name of Ralph Nader. Nader is nothing but a convenient scapegoat to obscure the actual reality of the Florida coup d'etat that lead TO THE SELECTION - NOT ELECTION - OF CHENEY*/BUSH*.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/19/george_w_bush_vs_al_gore_15_years_later_we_really_did_inaugurate_the_wrong_guy/

[Enthusiast]

47. Precisely.

[Hortensis]

78. No one said Nader was the only factor.

That kind of either-or thinking is truly clueless when it's real and dishonest when used as a phony argument. The fact is, if Nader had dropped dead in 1999 Gore would have won in 2000, we would never have had the disastrous W administrations and continued sacking of the nation by business, and the entire course of history would have been different.

[gordyfl]

168. I Think if Joe Lieberman Dropped Dead

Gore would have found a better VP and would have won.

Now in 2004....Dems are still losers.

[Dont call me Shirley]

99. Rec. Rec. Rec. Rec. Rec. Your post should be an OP, Raster! Gore won! As did Bernie!

[chapdrum]

100. Thank you Raster

OP blames Moore, yet leaves out all of the obvious patriots who tampered with our system to "elect" GWB.

A Democrat blaming Moore?

Ludicrous.

[bjobotts]

115. Nader only ran to get his issues into the national spotlight

[chapdrum]

92. Indeed, that is so.

"Mission Accomplished, Inc." is thriving, exactly as planned. In fact, with the "unexpected" bonus of ISIS/ISIL, business is improving by leaps and bounds.

[Hortensis]

18. Moore not only endorsed and promoted Ralph Nader

to those who respected his opinion, he encouraged Nader to run. For those who don't remember, Nader ran as a Green Party candidate and siphoned off critical votes from what would have been a clear victory for Al Gore despite massive election theft in a number states by the right. Without Nader (and Moore), SCOTUS would never have gotten the opportunity to just declare W our next president, no vote count needed.

Moore is apparently unchastened by watching what W and conservatives have done to our nation with his unwitting help.

The stakes are even higher now. Neofascist forces plan to undo Obama's advances and build on the Reagan-Bush legacies. If they are able to stack SCOTUS and our lower courts with even more hard-core conservatives, progressivism will be effectively dead for the rest of our lives and democracy as we know it will probably not last that long. The Constitution as our founders meant it to be understood is a LIBERAL document, a product of Enlightenment thought. They are totally committed to changing that.

We MUST win this election.

[potone]

29. This is only partly true.

The ultimate blame for Gore's loss was his own poor campaign. He distanced himself from Bill Clinton, who was still very popular at the end of his term despite the scandals (remember that he was re-elected after the House voted to impeach him). The final responsibility came down to the Supreme Court who ignored the Constitution's provisions for determining an election, despite the fact that the conservative justices who gave it to Bush all stridently and hypocritically claiming for years that they took an "originalist" reading of the Constitution.

In addition, Michael Moore did regret his support of Nader. I heard him speak at Portland State University in Portland, OR during Bush's re-election campaign and he implored the audience not to vote for Nader and to support John Kerry. He was quite amusing about it. He said, and I am quoting from memory, "I know it feels so good to vote for Nader; I did it myself, but as your parents told you when you were 14, ten minutes of feeling good can lead to a lifetime of regrets."

[Bluenorthwest]

37. I attended his event in Eugene 2004 and Nader voters heckeled him and were ejected to cheers

from the crowd. They would not shut up.

[Hortensis]

80. My guess is a fair number of ex- "Naders" are here.

It would at least partly explain the defense of him and attempts to put all blame for losing that election on the Democrat's candidate, Gore. Notably, although SCOTUS gets some blame, in today's discussion the GOP doesn't really seem to be a player except as a beneficiary of Gore's incompetence...

DU deja vu all over again.

They ended up disappointed in Nader, of course.

[Raster]

125. NOT an ex-"Nader" here. And NOT blaming Albert Gore.

The Florida GOP led by Brother Jeb and Katherine Harris did everything they possibly could - legal or otherwise - to throw Florida to George W*. The fix truly was in. Florida was the linchpin in the plot to install Cheney*/Bush* in the White House. A viciously partisan SCOTUS sealed the deal.

[Hortensis]

172. So losing elections is always caused by

two factors, and in this case those two factors are accounted for? Kinda silly argument to my mind. But let's move on.

[Raster]

176. Please. I said no such thing, and you know that.

And you can move wherever you damned well please - on, off, up or down. Pack your little snarkcase and go.
Have a nice day.

[Hortensis]

49. One, Gore's campaign is surely a different issue. I never heard

that his unfortunate tendency to speak in complete sentences forced Nader to run.

Second - that is my point. He did regret it, but that did not undo his mistake. Apparently not with many others, not just in my mind, because in 2004 he made a big public show of "begging" Nader not to run again.

I do greatly admire Moore's documentaries, but his irresponsible actions have done a great deal to produce material for yet more documentaries. If Cruz or any other GOP candidate wins, Moore will have to have a friend pick a card to decide which corrupt, and all-too-likely deadly, outrage to tackle next.

[jeff47]

54. He was impeached in 1998.

While he wasn't re-elected after impeachment, Republicans lost seats in the 1998 midterm. That's extremely rare in year 6 of a presidency, and was widely considered a rebuke of the Republicans for impeachment.

[John Poet]

88. Clinton was re-elected in 1996. The vote to impeach wasn't until 1998.

The party DID do better than expected in the 1998 congressional elections, which seemed to be a reaction to the GOP's impeachment attempt.

[potone]

174. Thank you for the correction!

My memory is not as sharp as it used to be.

[gordyfl]

31. You Can't Blame Michael Moore

for George Bush winning again in 2004. Who can you "blame"?

[Armstead]

36. Who can you blame? Gore, Clinton's penis, the SC, the Bushes and Corrupt Floridas officials.....

[FailureToCommunicate]

40. And don't forget Lieberman...

[Brainstormy]

63. Thank you!

To this day every time I hear that name my blood pressure spikes.

[merrily]

161. Maybe the country did not want another two DLC founders at the top of the ticket?

Maybe Gore and Lieberman were not impressive campaigners?

Maybe Clinton's escapades paved the way for someone who announced his candidacy on the Trinity Broadcasting Network?

Maybe a lot of right wing Democrats in Florida voted for Bush?

No, I'm sure it was all Moore's fault!

[Hortensis]

55. Whatever you do, don't forget Hillary!

[Armstead]

57. nope...not on that one. She was about as irrelevant to that outcome as Nader and Moore

[A Simple Game]

38. Damn right, we need to do something about these spoilers!

Let's start a list instead of placing the blame on the Supreme Court where it belongs. And some say you have to be able to recognize a problem before you can fix it.

1. No more third party candidates, who do they think they are? American citizens?
2. No more direct family members, that would have eliminated W in the first place. Of course it would also eliminate Hillary so plus-plus.
3. The constitution is outdated, no more foreign blood, to be eligible for President you must have American citizens for both parents, been born in America, not some poor excuse for American soil in the middle of some foreign country. Of course that would have eliminated McCain, Cruz, Romney, etc. and of course President Obama, but who needs hope and change.
4. Religion, nothing wrong with only a good christian boy being able to become President. Of course then there goes Bernie, but at least a minority of conservative Democrats on DU would be happier.
5. Speaking of good christian boys, remind me, why do we even let women vote? OK, OK, let them vote but that's it.
6. Must be a property owner just like in the good old days.
7. You damn well better be a capitalist and proud of it.
8. You must be a member of the majority party... I mean Democratic party. (may have to be careful with this one the way the Democrats a bleeding members)
9. You can only endorse the candidate that (insert your name here) wants to win.

This is fun, I could go on but have no doubts you can add a few of your own pet peeves to the list to prevent another disaster like 2000.

I know some of these regulations may seem harsh but are a small prices to pay for a complete and free democracy where anyone can aspire to be President, well at least most people... well at least some people. Or we could try practicing being a democracy that has free elections, which ever seems best.

[Hortensis]

89. All that work and not 10 seconds of honest

consideration of what I said? As a response to me, Simple, you obviously think it makes sense, and it's, I imagine, meant to shoot down something I never said. Looks like you probably had fun, though, so...okay.

[A Simple Game]

124. Just keep blaming it on Nader, that'll make everything seem better. n/t

[frylock]

96. Kinda like how Bill encouraged Trump to run?

So, if Trump wins the WH, we can expect you to blame Bill Clinton for that, amirite?

[Enthusiast]

114. If Nader had not run black operatives on the ground in Florida would have adjusted their game

like they have done in so many banana republicans and secured the win for Bush in some other fashion.

The election and the Bush presidency, including 9/11, was an operation designed to enrich a few powerful predators at the top that remain in control of the USA.

Don't think so? Just watch your media coverage of the Iowa caucus then get back to me.

[cannabis_flower]

20. I blame ..

Gore for not fighting it and JEB. It wasn't just the hanging chads. It was also the voter purge and the voter suppression. Read Greg Palast'so The Best Democracy Money Can Buy .

[frylock]

97. Why do that and ruin a perfectly good two-minute hate?

If you get a chance, go and see one of Greg's lectures. I went with a small group of San Diego DUers back in 2004. Great time.

[Cary]

39. But emoprogs made the election close enough to steal

And 16 years later the radical left has learned nothing.

[jeff47]

56. Uh, no.

A better Gore campaign would have not lost NH by 2 percent, which would have made FL moot.

A better Gore campaign might also have won TN, making FL moot.

[gordyfl]

70. Yes, it's not good when you can't win your home state.

Or Clinton's home state of Arkansas.

At least John Kerry carried his home state when he lost to George Bush.

Now, if we can only figure out which individual to blame for Dems losing to Bush in 2004.

[jeff47]

71. Frankly, I blame Hillary Clinton for 2004.

Not "blame" as in she caused it, but blame as in she failed to seize her best opportunity to win.

She would have been far more competitive in 2004 than Kerry. People still remembered the Clinton years fondly. And we needed a candidate who'd knock W down a peg, causing his entire edifice to collapse. Kerry isn't that kind of person. Clinton is.

By 2008, she was too late. Too many millennials in the voting pool for "go back to the 90s" to work.

[gordyfl]

76. I Totally Agree.

2004 was "her time".

[Hortensis]

98. Oh, God! You guys are so funny.

So consistent!

[anamnua]

132. She *did* run

in 2004 -- for a senate seat. Running for president at that point without some representative experience under her belt would have been daft. As for whose fault it was for the Bush win. Karl Rove is/was flawed -- but a political genius.

[jeff47]

138. Nope. Her Senate runs were 2000 and 2006. (nt)

[gordyfl]

166. True About Karl Rove.

Yes, Hillary wanted to improve her resume with a Sec'y of State title.
Obama didn't have much experience on his resume, yet he won.

[Cary]

79. If you are saying that Gore capitulated to "conservative" smears of Clinton

And that he made a tactical error in distancing himself then I agree.

And emoprogs make the exact same tactical error today.

[jeff47]

81. Problem is you just contradicted yourself.

So..."emoprogs" threw the election to W....except Gore's bad campaign threw the election to W.

Btw, bashing half of the party (based on IA results) is a really, really dumbass strategy.

[Cary]

82. Problem is there are many causes

That doesn't excuse Nader or emoprogs.

Do you want President Trump, Cruz, or Rubio? Go soft at your own peril.

[avaistheone1]

128. You are correct regarding the Supreme Court

and unfortunately the swing vote was Sandra Day O'Connor. She delivered the presidency to Bush.

Also wanted to add this link regarding the Gore win.
http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=181

[Arazi]

7. The Supreme Court put W in the White House. Gore won eom

[m-lekktor]

12. That is some serious bizarre reasoning just so you can go after somebody

because they endorsed Bernie instead of Hillary!

[KingCharlemagne]

25. Massive respect for your concern for the masses. How is support

for Sanders "gambling with the welfare of over 300 million people"? Isn't Hillary also a HUGE GAMBLE, given her very high negatives?

[yeoman6987]

32. Cruz won't win the nomination

It will be trump or Rubio. Not that either are great but one of them will be the nomination.

[Hortensis]

59. Rubio is a right wing extremist, currently.

Expedience has taken wherever the ideology was most beneficial at that time. He is on my likely sociopath list, and isI see absolutely no indication that he cares about anything but amassing power in his record.

[marmar]

60. "As for Moore, he was instrumental before in putting W in the White House."

[gordyfl]

72. And was M. Moore Instrumental in Getting W reelected?

He supported John Kerry.

After four years of Bush, you would think Dems could have won with Howdie Doodie as their nominee. And now they lost the House and the Senate.

What the Dems need is a Revolution.

[greiner3]

73. I call bs and hope I'm wrong

I'd need your explanation of how Michael letting Bush win the election. And Michael posting Cruz's victory 'dem are fightin words' as so many Oaters rejoined. And I hope you refer to the country's welfare as a Bernie good rather than as a keep the course thing. Just sayin

[Manifestor_of_Light]

77. The Supremes installed W in the white house,

NOT Michael Moore, and NOT Ralph Nader.

Al Gore didn't sue to get all the votes counted in a particular County in Florida, and Jeb and Katharine Harris were busy giving the state to W. And the Supremes ruled that it was not violating a voter's civil rights to not count their votes in Florida.

Furthermore, they said, "This is not a precedent." That is the kind of statement that drives us legally trained types crazy. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, "I dissent" instead of "I respectfully dissent" in her dissent.

In the very polite world of Federal judges, that is practically a bomb-throwing statement. Good for her!

[Maedhros]

90. You're fighting an uphill battle.

"Nader is responsible for Bush" is on the same level as "We have always been at war with EastAsia." The Party, unwilling to take responsibility for their horrible strategy in 2000, directed the anger of the rank-and-file toward a convenient scapegoat. It's Propaganda 101, and here we are 16 years later and it's still being parroted by the uncritically-thinking. For me, Nader-blaming is simply a useful tool for identifying who goes on the ignore list. By continuing to catapult that particular piece of propaganda, those posters demonstrate that they are not to be taken seriously.

[Raster]

139. Thank you!

[merrily]

163. Exactly. Brilliant.

Maybe worse. Because I think at least some of those who said "We've always been at war with EastAsia" may have sincerely believed what they were saying.

[chapdrum]

91. How did Moore put W in power?

Pray tell.

[406-Boz]

109. Explain please how Michael Moore "was instrumental" "in putting W in the White House"

That would be news to me, it seems pretty unbelievable.

[PatrynXX]

129. I'm angry with Moore for turning his back on Obama

but he still has hope for redemption. If hillary is supposed to win in theory . we really need to push her on single payer, right down to she's playing a bad game of dice

[Doctor_J]

158. If Hillary loses to Cruz, it will not be the fault of Michael Moore

Or the voters that she and her supporters insulted and took for granted.

[Cobalt Violet]

3. and yet they gloat away here.

Sad they don't want the person with the best chance against republicans. I don't want to hear their whining in November.

[raouldukelives]

9. They want the best choice for Wall St money.

Trump or Clinton = safety for them.
Bernie = finally addressing the problems arising from the hell hole they have willingly created.

[ChiciB1]

22. ALL Bernie Supporters... FIGHT ON! n/t

[bigwillq]

6. Pretty amazing.

I think Iowa proved that Sanders' campaign is legit. It was a great showing by Bernie.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. BAM! Love Michael!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[beachbum bob]

10. the fact the bernie did so poorly with women voters is the telling mark

in spite of all the hoopla over bernie...

[elias49]

11. What? What the heck numbers are you looking at?

Have a link?

[gordyfl]

74. I just heard on the radio Bernie won Young Women Votes.

They went on to say young woman want a woman - just not Hillary. Young women also assume we'll have a woman president sooner or later. They're not worried. Right now they like Bernie.

[beachbum bob]

13. the entrance poll numbers my friend

women made up 57% of caucus voters and hillary was supported by 53% of the female votes and bernie by 42%

[chervilant]

14. Well, THIS woman

is voting for Bernie, and his momentum will only continue to win support.

[w4rma]

15. Your numbers don't add up for women under 45. Women under 45 broke for Bernie by a huge amount. (nt)

[mythology]

51. That is at best a supposition

You assume that is why they voted for Clinton. But you don't actually offer anything to support that conclusion. It would be just as unfounded to assume that men voted for Sanders more just because he's a man, but I notice you didn't say that. It's almost like you can't acknowledge that somebody might actually prefer Clinton to Sanders for reasons other than having the same plumbing.

If you look at the polling data, unmarried women (and men) were far more likely to vote for Sanders than for Clinton. This is probably largely correlated with his success among younger voters, but it does indicate that no, actually it's not Clinton's uterus they are voting for.

[HERVEPA]

27. And women are warm to Ted Cruz????

[myrna minx]

43. THIS middle aged feminist woman is fo Bermie.

[liberal_at_heart]

95. so is this middle aged feminist, and so is my Millennial daughter.

[Bjornsdotter]

154. My Mom

...who is 72 is for Bernie.

I'm 55 and for Bernie.

My daughter is 26 and for Bernie.

Seems to be doing okay with women in my family....all ages.

[Enthusiast]

17. Kicked and recommended to the Max! Way to go, Michael! Yay, Bernie!

[Duval]

19. Kicked and recommended.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. Hillary is a coin-toss democrat.

[merrily]

28. She's a coin toss winner.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. It Doesn't say much for democracy.

Enjoy the .3% coin toss win.

[merrily]

162. Thing is....

http://jackpineradicals.org/showthread.php?3590-Did-Bernie-win-the-Iowa-caucuses-by-more-than-Hillary-claims-to-have-won

[merrily]

26. "Elderly" six years older than Hillary and seems much healthier.

[blackspade]

30. K&R.

[oberliner]

34. What an idiotic comment

He is actually neither elderly nor a socialist. I also don't see any reason to note his religion in this context.

[red dog 1]

111. Bernie calls himself a "democratic socialist"

Doesn't that refute your statement?

[oberliner]

113. He makes a point to add that adjective democratic

Because I think the term socialist on its own has some connotations (for some people, at least) that do not apply to his definition of a democratic socialist.

And he is definitely not elderly!

[red dog 1]

116. I never said he is elderly

[oberliner]

133. Michael Moore did in the OP

That was more egregious than the socialist part in my opinion.

[deutsey]

35. K&R

[Yupy]

41. He won, a toss coin Victory? DEMOCRACY?

[Uncle Joe]

48. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, dixiegrrrrl.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. I'll take an elderly, Jewish, Socialist over an elderly, Christian capitalist any day.

[Punkingal]

62. +1

[dana_b]

67. me too! n/t

[TBF]

69. Same here & twice on Sunday ... nt

[dixiegrrrrl]

134. Pls remember that come primary voting day.

(gentle poke)

[merrily]

164. Sing it, sister!

[pinebox]

61. It was said tongue in cheek guys

and was a sarcastic comment. He was mocking what Hillary supporters see and say about Bernie. People like these. In fact we're making a Tumblr of the stupid and it will be up in a couple days XD

[dixiegrrrrl]

68. Irony and sarcasm are hard to "get" around here. n/t

[gvstn]

85. I want to like Michael Moore.

But I think he is an arrogant ass.

Good statement today, but I just think he is arrogant and an ass. Can't help it.

Note: Not saying I could do better but with his kind of money he could hire a good PR person to control things.

[chapdrum]

102. Control what things?

But I suppose, better we should have more arrogant GOP asses.

[gvstn]

137. Control his ability to come off as an arrogant ass

Rather than a guy with good intentions, speaking the truth.

[red dog 1]

106. "I want to like Michael Moore..But I think he's an arrogant ass."??

Have you seen any of his movies?

[gvstn]

136. Yes, I have.

Have you seen any of his public statements/interviews?

He's an arrogant ass.

I'll say it a thousand times because it is true.

[gordyfl]

167. I Remember Seeing Michael Moore on Stage

accepting an Academy Award. It was hilarious how he ripped into George W.

[red dog 1]

117. K&R...Thanks for posting, dixiegrrrrl

Michael Moore is one of my heroes.

Although most of his films are about serious issues, he does have a sense of humor.

For example, in his second film, "The Big One", he was giving a talk to an audience and someone shouted out: "You should run for President..it would send a message."

MM's response: "What message? Eat out more often?"

[avaistheone1]

126. Great perspective!!

[Stryder]

131. Wow indeed.

1 delegate and a couple coin tosses?
On our budget?
Buckle up my friends.

[Initech]

141. Bernie! Bernie! Bernie! Bernie! Bernie! Bernie! Bernie:

[George II]

149. Is there any significance to the $2700 maximum allowable contribution being a multiple of $27?

[dixiegrrrrl]

156. I have no clue....n/t

[merrily]

165. No. The $27 is simply the quotient obtained by dividing the total amount of money the Sanders

campaign has taken in by the total number of donations the Sanders campaign has taken in. That is typically how one calculates the average amount of each donation. It's just 5th grade arithmetic, or was it fourth?

[lastone]

157. Michael Moore said what?

He said - BAM MOTHER FUCKER!

[Feeling the Bern]

159. And boom goes the dynamite!

[gordyfl]

169. Michael Moore's Views are More in Line With Bernie's

so his endorsement should come as no surprise.

Now Dems are attacking Michael Moore in the same way Republicans have been attacking him for years - just because he didn't endorse Hillary.

Michael Moore (and Bernie Sanders) warned us about the Iraq War. Michael Moore did it in epic fashion...