2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumShould it matter that Bernie Sanders doesn't have an advanced degree?
Bernie Sanders has a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science. Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley both have law degrees. On the GOP side, Trump is the only one of the top 4 candidates who doesn't have an advanced degree. Rubio and Cruz have law degrees, and Carson has a medical degree.
Should it matter? Will it matter?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)WHY should that matter???
I believe it's an advantage NOT to have a law degree.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Want to remind the American people that everyone running is a lawyer, except for Bernie??? By all means, please do!!
askew
(1,464 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,211 posts)TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)Scott Walker didn't even have a bachelor's, and he was a GOP favorite before Trump. Ben Carson's a doctor, no one cares. And O'Malley's law degree didn't make a difference.
EmperorHasNoClothes
(4,797 posts)apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Sure you do, Ace, sure you do.
demwing
(16,916 posts)"Don't know what you're getting at."
frylock
(34,825 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)ladjf
(17,320 posts)Correction:
Jimmy Carter received B.S. in physics from the Naval Academy.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,679 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)I knew a guy who made going to college his life long dream. As long as his grand mother would finance it he went. She died after 24 years of supporting him and he died shortly thereafter broke and from an over dose. All his degrees didn't mean squat. He was smart he could rattle off statistics with the best of them or discuss any and all issues but it only got him 6 feet of earth. He was book smart but dumb as a box of rocks.
demwing
(16,916 posts)To be fair, the same end is in store for each of us, regardless of our stature.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I did eventually learn that 'well-educated' and 'smart' and 'wise' are all completely independent. I ran into PhDs I wouldn't trust to fill out a form for me, and people who only had a high school diploma who had incredible insight into human nature and society. People with IQs in the stratosphere who couldn't ever figure out how to interact with others, and people with bachelors' who got along with everyone they met.
School is important for teaching very specific skills, and providing alternate perspectives, but if you're paying attention, everything around you will teach you important things, whether or not you're in 'school'.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I'm 67 and every day I learn something new.
I've found if a person has to tell me about all the education they've got they pretty much haven't got anything else. Smart people don't have to tell anyone they're smart, you'll know it by what they say or do.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I could have gotten elsewhere. There, I just had a few professors who were intent on honing those skills in students. And really, none of them were area-of-study specific. If I were sent back in time, to change my own past, I'd tell my younger self NOT to get so many advanced degrees, but to spend more time studying the learning process itself, and social interaction, organizing types of skills. Just found this website that has a lot of great info - racialequitytools.org
merrily
(45,251 posts)Smartest one in the Wizard of Oz didn't need a piece of paper to be smart. He only was "concerned" he needed one. The Wizard set him straight.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)is not a good thing.
tecelote
(5,122 posts)I'll take common sense for 2016.
Let's stop focusing on regime change and focus on building a better America. This will make the world a better place.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)Bernie must bring this into the debate. It is a question of judgment. What does it say that Hillary sided with McCain and Lindsay in the Libya debate?
Journeyman
(15,037 posts)For the rest, he was self-taught (as are we all).
840high
(17,196 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)who didn't go to an ivy league school? Oh, the horror.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)It's an impressive place--and I live in spitting distance of M.I.T., Harvard, Boston University and Kerry's alma mater, Boston College.
NowSam
(1,252 posts)He is a brilliant courageous inspiring leader who sees and speaks incredible truths that no one in my lifetime have stated so clearly or even at all. Many great leaders in history have come from humble beginnings and were self educated. His life is his degree.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)How many more threads can we expect on this?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Well I suppose Shrub didn't either but that's a low bar.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)this is the first I've heard of it but it's troubling. I've posted his "too big to fail" legislation a couple of times because it's an utter joke. But I figured on some level that it was supposed to be. Sorry but yeah, not having a law degree matters.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No, having a law degree does not matter, good luck with your new meme but it's going to backfire.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)but I just can't listen to 10 minutes of Hillary, sorry
she makes me feel dirty just listening to her
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)ErisDiscordia
(443 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)gwheezie
(3,580 posts)He can't sing a note and has no life in his singing voice.
It doesn't matter to me that he doesn't have an advanced degree. That's not the reason I support HRC.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)There are a number of popular artists out there I'd label with the same vocal criticisms
djean111
(14,255 posts)Sounds like a RW talking point.
In any event, a law degree did not keep Hillary from enthusiastically shilling for war, fracking, and the TPP, so maybe a law degree should be on my list of things I do not want in a candidate.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)for the same job, the female applicant is clearly more qualified than the male applicant, but the male applicant gets the job.
Second, I think a JD would have helped Sanders create a more coherent message. Law school isn't easy, it would have helped test and shape him for the better.
Third, more people are beginning to wonder if Sanders has intellectual curiosity in areas outside of fiscal policy.
To answer your question, all things being equal, I prefer more education over less education. We should have high standards for who can be president of this great land.
840high
(17,196 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)ErisDiscordia
(443 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Your own personal preference does not count. Approach this as a job discrimination lawsuit that has nothing to do with or own personal bias.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)I am dying!
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I've seen some ridiculous arguments lately, but yours is singularly inane.
/ignore list.
cali
(114,904 posts)And I am not just referring to her vote for the IWR.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Flawed as a senator
Inconsequential as the SOS
Consistently shows poor judgement and an inclination to play loose with facts.
how is Clinton qualified again?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)She pushed Obama into the surge, destroying Libya, pushing death and destruction world-wide.
She's a neocon's wet dream in her support of the MIC.
askew
(1,464 posts)He has 15 years of executive experience. He's the only one who worked with a legislature as an executive to get legislation passed and enacted. He is only one who oversaw large law enforcement agencies, etc.
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)Angela Merkel has a doctorate in physics. She seems to be doing ok in her current job.
Eric Hoffer was self-educated. His book The True Believer will make a believer out of you.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)To pass through law school or graduate school people have to learn to accept a lot of bullshit, to not question authority, to be very serious and respectable, to be a conformist, to not rock the boat. Those are the same honed skills and behaviors that allow politicians to get rich off of massive speaking fees and kickbacks while revolving in and out of office.
In Bernie's case he breaks all those rules and that's part of what makes him seem authentic, and not at all like other politicians.
jfern
(5,204 posts)I have one and support Bernie.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)I didn't mean it like that.
He's got a raw authentic quality I don't usually see in lawyers and stuff.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)That's why.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Hillary was all in for a war based on lies, while Bernie opposed it. He correctly predicted many of the bad results that would follow, thus demonstrating that possession of an advanced degree is no guarantee of good decision-making.
Wise Child
(180 posts)the first candidate with an MFA in Creative Writing.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)ErisDiscordia
(443 posts)Do you really think that a piece of paper is worth something more than a life experience of repeated success in furthering the People's causes? A lifetime of ethical behavior in public and private? A lifetime of integrity?
What a sad little world...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)And I have an advanced degree.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)This meme is fascinating. As someone in graduate school, the idea that an advanced degree, let alone a law degree, is in some way qualification is to me just
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)"Doesn't see the big picture" is the way I usually hear that criticism phrased, and there are certainly people like that.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)napi21
(45,806 posts)I'm sure no Reagan fan, but he sure figured out how to really screw up the Country. Most of the decisions he made in the 80's are still negatively impacting the Country today! Even people with JD's couldn't have done more damage.
apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)And George W. Bush had the best "education" that legacy money can buy-- two degrees from Ivy League universities.
As you were saying?
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)One semester of business college. A few night courses in law. So guess your point is wrong.
demwing
(16,916 posts)As if it hadn't been proven false already.
Why?
elana i am
(814 posts)gop is the perfect example of that. doctors and lawyers can still be stoopid even with degrees.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)silenttigersong
(957 posts)failed her Washington D.C bar exam ?Bill Clinton lost his law license because of Monica?President Obama's Justice dept did not pursue charges regarding Bush's illegal war?
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I rest my case.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Can you imagine what might have happened, in the perilous first decade of this century, if we hadn't been blessed with the only President in history who can claim that credential? We might have had soaring budget deficits, a stock market crash, widespread unemployment... I shudder to think.
Philos
(85 posts)Considering the mess some of the other people with advanced degrees got us into, I don't exactly consider it a job requirement.
Mike__M
(1,052 posts)certainly proves how smart he is, enit?
MgtPA
(1,022 posts)If so, how much?
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)Tell me how that worked out?
jfern
(5,204 posts)7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Shoot me.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)By the way, some of the stupidest people I know hold advanced degrees and are still paying through the nose for them.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)vadermike
(1,416 posts)It doesn't matter omg if we are all bickering over this small shit say hello to president Rubio he thanks you .. In fact if I were betting right now I see that he could easily beat either of our too front runners dems are divided and not like 08 This election scares the shit outta me I see people who voted for Obama in 8 and 12 flirting with GOP and say shit like Rubio isn't so bad Dems are deluding ourselves if we think this is gonna be easy catwalk election and it pisses me off ok rant off lol
polly7
(20,582 posts)happynewyear
(1,724 posts)and I am so not impressed!
polly7
(20,582 posts)Woman - check. (just a reply to the claim of sexism I saw here).
Advanced Degree - check.
Why wouldn't they have both won their respective candidacies? Hard to understand, that. [URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)those eyes haunt me to this day.
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)TSIAS
(14,689 posts)It doesn't matter much for President.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Califonz
(465 posts)than a rectal thermometer!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)is one of the many reasons hillary is in freefall
Ino
(3,366 posts)would be better presidents than Sanders because of their degrees.
Do you?
gordyfl
(598 posts)IS HILLARY CLINTON qualified to be president?
To hear some of her prominent supporters tell it, no candidate could be more qualified. Many Clinton admirers talk this way.
If imposing resumes augured presidential greatness, James Buchanan would be on Mount Rushmore.
When Buchanan was elected president in 1856, it doubtless seemed to many that a candidate with such glittering political credentials was destined for brilliance in the White House.
But Buchanan failed miserably as president.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/02/03/does-hillary-resume-really-make-her-best-qualified-presidential-candidate/oVQRpgfUR5xvtmZylUYUbO/story.html
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)For me that is a plus, his judgement is much superior.
djean111
(14,255 posts)She then passed the Arkansas bar exam.
Maybe she she is reaching beyond her capabilities, if that degree is all that important, eh?
JudyM
(29,265 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)redwitch
(14,946 posts)His life experience, sound judgement work for me. I don't care if he has a law degree.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... it certainly makes me feel more confident.
Go, Hillary!
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)At this point in their careers, comparing Hillary's and Bernie's degrees/schools is silly. That sort of thing would be relevant if they were both fresh out of school and had no work experience to judge them by, or if there was some reason we actually need the President to have an advanced degree, but neither of those things are true.
Sanity Claws
(21,851 posts)In fact many think Jeb! Does not even have a bachelors degree.
Bernie has shown me that he is more than educated enough to be a great president.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)JudyM
(29,265 posts)JudyM
(29,265 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)ornotna
(10,805 posts)Without a college degree.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... this would seem to be a very touchy subject.
Ultimately, I think it's highly unlikely that this will be an "issue" (in the typical way that people think of election issues) ... however, I do believe that it's something that some voters will be considering as part of the entire picture. Whether it's something that matters to individual voters, and if so, the extent that it matters, remains to be seen.
Nevertheless it's an interesting question that's resulted in some interesting responses.
Go, Hillary!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)If we can survive the disastrous, hellish, miserable 8 freakin' years of the IDIOT-IN-CHIEF, Bush, who attended YALE and Harvard, Bernie's more than qualified. As you well know, Yale and Harvard degrees didn't help Bush be a good president!
Besides that, we do have a Constitution and it doesn't require ANY degree.
And Bernie is one hell of a smart guy!
PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Warren sounds pretty smart on economics because she was an economics professor.
Obama made fantastic appointments to the Supreme Court because he had studied Constitutional Law.
You can always depend on advisors and study yourself, but formal study in a topic can be very useful in political positions!
Experience is helpful too, because people learn from relevant experience. Warren and Obama are proof that the best decisions often occur within one's area of advanced study - where you have a chance to explore and debate and consider the details of some subject.
For example, in the few years after Yale Law school, Hillary's early experience was...
1973-1974 - Works as an attorney for the Children's Defense Fund.
January 1974 - Begins working for John Doar, the special counsel to the House Judiciary Committee, who is in charge of the inquiry in to the possible impeachment of President Richard Nixon.
August 1974 - Moves to Arkansas to teach at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
1974-1977 - Director of Legal Aid Clinic at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
1974-1977 and 1979-1980 - Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
1976-1992 - Attorney at Rose Law Firm, Little Rock, Arkansas. Is named partner in 1979.
1978 - President Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corp., an organization that provides federal funds to legal-aid bureaus throughout the United States.
1978 - Bill Clinton is elected governor of Arkansas. Hillary Clinton continues to work at Rose Law Firm, making her the first First Lady of Arkansas to continue working while her husband is governor.
1979 - Governor Clinton appoints her chairperson of the Rural Health Advisory Committee, whose members deal with the issue of providing health care in isolated areas.
Hillary's formal training included https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton:
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)An Ordered List of our Presidents College Education
1. George Washington, 1789 - 1797George Washington
College Attended: College of William and Mary
Degree Earned: Surveyor's License
2. John Adams, 1797 - 1801
College Attended: Harvard University
Degrees Earned: Bachelors degree; Masters degree
3. Thomas Jefferson, 1801 - 1809
College Attended: College of William and Mary
Degree Earned: Bachelors degree
4. James Madison, 1809 - 1817
College Attended: Princeton University
Degree Earned: Bachelors degree
5. James Monroe, 1817 - 1825
College Attended: College of William and Mary
Degree Earned: Bachelors degree
more....
Sanity Claws
(21,851 posts)Otherwise I agree with your points.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Her area of expertise was something like commerce and banking (I didn't look it up, but I remember her self-description on a TV show). I realize that a bunch of topics run together.
I think of Warren in terms of money and finance, but she technically taught finance in a law school, not purely economic theory.
I think that's one reason that formal study of modern topics gets so complex when dealing with specialized study. As far as I know, Warren has never mentioned practicing law very much, but most of her pre-Congress experience was as a professor.
Sanity Claws
(21,851 posts)She first came to my attention when she gave numbers for the people in bankruptcy due to medical debt. (Over half of the population seeking bankruptcy protection was seeking protection from medical bills.)
Sancho
(9,070 posts)During interviews and in Congress, she is very good at clarifying the logic of various policies and laws, even when they are complex.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Vinca
(50,300 posts)Earning a degree doesn't equal intelligence or success. Even an undergraduate degree.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)"book learnin'", high IQ's, degrees etc in the World are Useless is you don't have common sense, imo.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I've had enough legal parsing of language from the Clintons and other slimy politicians to last a lifetime.
We don't need more 'It depends on what the definition of is, is' people in the White House.
JudyM
(29,265 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And even there, it's only many, not all.
My big beef is with people who use language parsing as an excuse for unethical behaviour, being careful to benefit themselves by doing everything that's 'legal' while not giving a damn about what's moral, or even just ethical.
JudyM
(29,265 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)as education and can be given credit towards an education. I think Bernie has a lot more than that degree in knowledge, experience, wisdom and commitment. It doesn't matter at this time in the game. Not at all.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)give me ethics any day.
remember ... define is.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)earned the Bachelor's and set off to work. That is what Bernie did. Put that in the proper perspective with what was expected at the time.
I say this as one who went back to school to finish a Bachelor's (having to meld two different majors into one...not simple). But I kinda liked the idea of the LIberal Studies grad program at my school and I went back and got the master's. It took over 4 years but actually I loved every minute of it!
Mike Nelson
(9,961 posts)...it really does help to have an educational background in law or political science. Bernie's age and experience have given him an understanding of the political system. Typically, today's Republicans say they want someone who is not a lawyer (while blindly electing mostly lawyers). Their idea is to have an unknowledgeable and weak President, easily controlled by the ruling class. Hillary and Bernie are knowledgeable and strong candidates!
vaberella
(24,634 posts)I so far have yet to see that a law degree makes you that much better in the arena of governing. In addition, that's why there are political advisers. Not to mention, it really doesn't matter since Bernie Sanders has proven himself qualified as the best of them.
I don't believe it matters or should matter. It is someone who loves this country and wants the best for it. Everyone else he can hire to be honest. I don't see why this is made into a big deal. What has Clinton really accomplished with her advanced degree that Bernie hasn't?
book_worm
(15,951 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Should it matter that he leads on the right side of history, while she hangs onto the wrong side of history for far too long? YES.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)I was bothered by Walker not having a bachelor's degree, but I was bothered by everything about Walker, so that's not a perfect analogy. Anyway, if someone has a degree, it demonstrates a desire to learn and grow, so I'm fine with that. I don't support Sanders for other reasons, mainly my commitment to Hillary.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)askew
(1,464 posts)Remember their college educations.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)saltpoint
(50,986 posts)Punkingal
(9,522 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)saltpoint
(50,986 posts)of a classical education apart from his own self-directed learning.
A case could be made that he did pretty well in the White House.