Black Voters in NH Unconvinced by Sanders

[bravenak]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/politics/2016/02/07/black-nh-voters-unconvinced-bernie-sanders/79970340/

[TCJ70]

1. I can't believe this line is working...

“Hillary is a proven,” Ross, 75, said as she left church services Sunday. “She’s not saying anything she can’t do.”

She's absolutely saying things she can't do. She's also not addressing the fact that she can't do and actively avoiding answering any questions regarding the problem.

[bravenak]

3. Believe it.

[TCJ70]

7. What's your answer then?

How does she get her "more progressive than Bernie" agenda through the same Congress that would block Bernie's agenda?

[bravenak]

12. She never promised to get a 'more progressive than Bernie' agenda through congress.

That would be a lie.
She promises to make small steps progressively. He cries for a revolution. Thise are different agendas. She will protect what we have. He wants big things.

[TCJ70]

15. I didn't ask what...I asked how...

...which is the same accusation made against Sanders. She'll face the same opposition Bernie would.

[bravenak]

19. The opposition will be different.

But big things get a big response. A huge fight. This congress will fight harder than we can. They do not give a care about what 'the people' say.

[TCJ70]

20. Anything will be a big fight...

...don't you want someone who will fight back? Hillary has already waved the white flag. Have you not heard them in their debates? They're fully prepared to stonewall anyone with the last name Clinton. It will not be any less of a fight for her than it would be for Bernie, but Bernie has a bigger vision than a few crumbs at a time.

[bravenak]

21. Fight back?

I have no evidence of her opponent being a big time fighter. Anybody can say what they'll do, but when it comes down to it, they can only do the possible. He has no real coalition in congress on either side who will go to the mat for his agenda. Who in the Senate or The House is willing to push his legislation and whip up enough votes? We cant even decide what goes up for a vote at the present time, we control no house of congress.
Once I am convinced that the 'establishment' Democrats with power in the halls of congress are fully behind his agenda and will fight for him, I will be supportive. As of now he is railing against those establishment democrats, so I do not see them being amenable to him personally or putting their jobs on the line to fight for him.
No one ever has an answer to this.

[TCJ70]

36. Changing the political climate takes time and pressure...

...I don't think Sanders would get much of his social agenda through in a first term. I have no illusions of that. What I do see him working for is keeping Americans informed of how their government isn't working for them and motivating them to vote every year, which is what we need in order to truly change things.

This is the centerpiece of his campaign. Increasing voter turnout, keeping the pressure on, and moving things forward. What good is it to work with people who are content with the way things are? That doesn't move anything anywhere. Four years from now, most people will still be paying insurance companies much more than they need to, we'll most likely still be engaged in the ME killing people we shouldn't be killing, etc no matter who gets elected...the difference is Sanders will have spent four years trying to change it with all of us.

[bravenak]

37. Four years making absolutely NO PROGRESS.

There would need to be a house and senate with enough democrats in very blue districts to get ANY of his agenda through. Gerrymandering prevents this. The fact that he has no support in the house or senate is a hurdle that he cannot jump. He is calling out those Establishment dems daily, why would they help him? How long do you think people will wait for this change and these things he offers? Obama got a month before people were all over him.
Moderate dems have been getting an earful from him, conservative democrats too, he onky has his base to rely on to forge this revolution. There will be democrats nd republicans fighting him on his agenda, this nation is not made for swift progress. If nothing gets through after four years there will not be four more. People who are moderate dems will not be interested in helping him run again, primary will probably be the result.
We had a healthcare fight. It was brutal. I personally am not interested in fighting that again. Many are not n are proud of what we accomplished.

[TCJ70]

38. Settle if you want...

...I'll stick with our best chance for progress.

[bravenak]

39. Okay.

And I will stick with the candidate with the diverse coalition that can win this primary.

[politicaljunkie41910]

150. Gosh you sound like me. I didn't realize I had a clone out there. Keep saying what you're saying.

You are a voice of reason that needs to be heard.

[bravenak]

151. Ha!!

Good!! Nice to have another realist.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

247. These same people supporting Sanders gave President Obama PURE HELL after he couldn't get

progressive ideas through. Interesting that they're letting Bernie Sanders slide on this.

So we have to wait until Sanders' second term for him to be able to get anything done.

And another interesting point: He says building a coalition takes time, but again, that same nuanced position was never afforded to Barack Obama. They wanted the president PRIMARIED in 2012, despite all the president's successes. Despite the unprecedented level of obstruction he faced from Republicans and some Democrats---they wanted to ignore all of that and primary the president. They scoffed at any suggestion that racism played a huge role in this--which it did. Instead, these people blamed Obama for everything. Now they want us to support Bernie Sanders after how they've treated this president? Hell no!

Black people haven't forgotten how HRC treated the president in 2008.

But black people also haven't forgotten how Bernie Sanders and his supporters have bashed the president and continue to ridicule the president despite his many successes. Black people don't like that shit, either!

[redstateblues]

253. BSS are now admitting Bernie would not get anything done

In a first term. The notion that he would get a second is laughable

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

255. They want us to believe that after them treating the president like shit and the

electorate turned on the president in 2010 because he couldn't get much done due to Republican (and some Democratic) obstruction won't happen to Bernie Sanders.

Many of us have been making the point that they love and worship Bernie Sanders NOW, but suppose he wins this year. Suppose he is forced to compromise with moderates and conservatives in the Democratic Party, only to find that he can't get anything through a Republican-dominated House and Senate. Imagine how fast his fanatics will turn on him in 2018 and even sit out the Midterm elections, just as they did with President Obama despite this president saving the economy and giving us improved healthcare.

I can't imagine that Sanders fanatics will remain loyal after they realize that he can't get shit done. Or...maybe they will. They seem to have this double standard when it comes to Sanders and the president.

[heaven05]

44. well

That's a tried and true cliche. Been used for generations in many areas of American culture. I will vote for whatever nominee gets to the GE as the democratic party voting blocs choice. All politicians are to be distrusted as to their ability to make good on their promises. Too much influence of the monied class to really make a difference. The monied elite run this country, not us or our vote. I vote only because of it representing a personal middle finger to the monied elite and as a nod to the many who died for the right to vote as citizens of color in this racist culture.

[JustAnotherGen]

236. This is why

You remain one of my favorites here.

[heaven05]

243. you are now

And shall remain the same in my book......😀😀😀

[bravenak]

239. Oh god yes

[heaven05]

244. I send

Much love and respect to you......❤❤❤

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

248. Amazing as always. I salute you!

[heaven05]

333. keep up the good fight

I return the salute☺

[politicaljunkie41910]

148. He's been saying those same things for the past 30 years. Chuck Todd of MTP did an interview

about this exact thing saying that Bernie has been saying the same things for the past 30 years. He said he couldn't believe that when he was doing research for that last Dem Town Hall. He even asked Bernie this exact question at the very beginning of that last Town Hall hosted by Todd and Maddow and Bernie dodged the question. I was disappointed that Todd let him get away with that dodge.

[TCJ70]

149. Timing matters...

...30 years ago this wasn't an issue on anyone's radar. In the past 8 years, groups like ALEC, the Koch brothers, etc have highlighted money's influence on politics and policy. The fact that he's beens concerned about and saying this for 30 years only bolsters his credibility on the issue. He saw it coming, just like the results of the Iraq War and ISIS. Fact is, he's been right far more than wrong.

[politicaljunkie41910]

153. Or it means that he's an alarmist and you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

Now FTR, I don't doubt that we have problems that Bernie is addressing. I just think his proposals are too ambitious to get through Congress and he shouldn't be raising false hopes that he can't deliver upon. But we do have real problems that need to be addressed and we can't afford to have 4-8 more years of gridlock which is just what we will have because it will take 4-6 years to turn over both Houses if we are lucky. With Bernie's 'socialist agenda' we may never get there in my lifetime. He will simply frustrate his followers and they will fail to show up at the polls in subsequent years. I've never missed a vote in the 40 years since I turned 18. The youth are notorious for their ebb and flow existence at the polls which is why when we take one step forward we seem to end up one step backwards.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

252. He sure has, but no one brings that up. Thank you so much for your posts.

Brilliantly stated.

And welcome!

[politicaljunkie41910]

125. Also, all these folks are just opportunists looking for a job should Bernie actually win.

Then not only would you have a Democratic Socialist with an agenda that he can't move through either House of Congress, but you'll have a bunch of rookies on his team with no experience on Capital Hill getting things done. Jealous is just the latest. We are officially in a Bull Market today, and not far away from an official recession. This is no time for amateur hour.

[bravenak]

127. Please no.

That sounds horrible!

[TCJ70]

142. What the hell kind of post is this?

I very much have a job that I'm happy with.

[politicaljunkie41910]

156. I was talking about Ben Jealous, the subject of the original OP.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

250. The point I was making about Ben Jealous last week is twofold...

First, most people don't know who Ben Jealous is prior to looking him up. He's the *former* NAACP head who didn't accomplish much when he was the president of that organization. Seems like all he did was show up on commentary shows to bash and criticize the president.

Second, most black people have lost respect for the NAACP. You already know this, but the NAACP as an organization is no longer that viable in the black community. The organization has not been that much effective, just as the Congressional Black Caucus and other black organizations. That is largely due to racism, but some of it also has to do with ineptitude (especially in NAACP's case). The more effective organizations have been on the ground, such as NAACP's local offices.

My point: It is of little consequence that Jealous endorsed Sanders.

Also, the idea that just because a member of the former or present black "establishment" endorses Sanders doesn't mean that ALL black voters should follow suit and vote for Sanders.

How insulting, and I really hate when the white liberals do that: Well Cornel West and Ben Jealous support Sanders; why do they get it and other blacks don't?

They need to miss me with that nonsense. Black people will support whomever we want.

[brush]

305. You mean "bear" market, right?

[gwheezie]

168. Great analysis

That is a point that is rarely made but is accurate.

[bravenak]

169. This really is a very crucial issue and I hope it gets addressed.

[politicaljunkie41910]

140. I'll answer that. Hillary has a reputation of reaching across the aisle and working with others to

get things done. The establishment GOP, try as they may, see the handwriting on the wall. They know that their constituents are pissed at them. They can't afford to continue sitting on their hands doing nothing while the enonomy stagnates. Today, we are officially in a Bull Market and shortly, will be in a full blown recession because Wall St is starting to panic and Bank stocks are tumbling. That's been the entire discussion this morning on CNBC. It's not enough that the US had been doing better than its European allies markets financially. We live in a global economy, and when Europe gets a cold, the US gets the flu. Saudia Arabia has concerns as well and China now has pneumonia.

After this long and contentious primary season is done, voters are going to want someone who can get things done. Bernie has been sitting in Congress for more than 30 years and has nothing to show for it. After getting the nation's youth all riled up he's now admitting that he won't be able to get any of his agenda through Congress until he has a Democatic House and Senate. Well no shit Sherlock. Where has he been the past 7+ years. It is disengenuous of him to know, after he has raised all these hopes to now state that he doesn't think any of his promises will happen in his first term.

Bye Bernie.

[TCJ70]

141. Sorry, but...

...you don't seem to pay attention too well. Bernie has been nothing but honest about the difficulties that will face him, and Hillary, if they win the GE.

[politicaljunkie41910]

143. How condescending. I didn't tell you that you were stupid so I don't need you to tell me that I

don't seem to pay attention too well. Take that crap somewhere else.

[TCJ70]

146. I was basing it on this:

After getting the nation's youth all riled up he's now admitting that he won't be able to get any of his agenda through Congress until he has a Democatic House and Senate. Well no shit Sherlock. Where has he been the past 7+ years. It is disengenuous of him to know, after he has raised all these hopes to now state that he doesn't think any of his promises will happen in his first term.

Since speech one it's been about the Revolution. A direct response to the obstructionism and foolishness on display from the Republicans in Congress. He hasn't hid it. If you missed it, that's fine. But he hasn't hid it. I don't throw accusations around without something to back them up.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

254. Bernie Sanders means shit to me because he knew how Obama has been treated for 8 years...

....even with a Democratic-controlled Congress, he couldn't get much of his agenda passed.

Now we have a Republican House and Senate and he can't get much done due to their racism and deliberate obstruction.

Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders and his fanatics raised all kinds of hell. They insulted President Obama. They even called for him to be primaried. Michael Moore claimed that the president will only be known for being "The First Black President". Highly insulting, incredibly racist!!

Fast forward to today and Bernie Sanders and his fanatics are asking black voters to support him AFTER treating the president like shit.

Even more important, only NOW are we supposed to become politically nuanced, accepting that Bernie Sanders will have a hard time getting his agenda through. But when it came to President Obama, there was no such nuance. There was no such understanding. When many of us POC members of DU tried to explain how the president was facing racism in Congress and deliberately being obstructed, we were told to shut up and sit down (in so many words).

Now Bernie Sanders and his fanatics want us to **give Bernie some time** and be understanding that he won't be able to do much until his second term? Really? He won't be able to do much UNTIL we get a Democratic-controlled House and Senate! Really?

Where was this understanding under Obama?

[cascadiance]

326. So, who worked with Republicans to audit the fed and finally got one done?

Hillary Clinton! Hell no! You think she'd do that to her bankster friends?

Bernie did! Something amongst many other things that Bernie has done in congress that gets selectively IGNORED!

And would Hillary get arrested to help with civil rights protests?



Hmm....

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

245. He cries for a revolution...except for when it comes to us Negroes. We should just shut up

and vote for Bernie Sanders because he CRIES for a revolution on other things...that he won't be able to get through a Republican-dominated Congress.

That is one of the driving forces against his campaign. Black voters are NOT stupid!

Sanders is losing blacks because he is promising the sky that we all know won't get anywhere with moderate and conservative Democrats, and certainly won't go anywhere in a Republican led and dominated House and Senate.

Plus, he has turned off many in the Democratic Party with his insults. How would he turn around and work with these same people after insulting his own colleagues?

[Lazy Daisy]

40. It's not

And we have to stop falling for it. As we all get out there and share what Bernie is offering more and more people from all walks of life are "feeling the Bern". The divisive arguments are falling one by one. The whole "BernieBro's" crap of only young white men support Bernie has been debunked. We as Bernie supporters have to keep going forward and sift out the "noise".

[bravenak]

43. I stand with Bernie and thank him for addressing the issue.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

107. Bubble. I think Bernie's supporters are saying he is..

...defining the direction the country should go, during his term and thereafter. I don't find Bernie's supporters claiming he's going to get things done in the current political climate. He even says it's going to take a political revolution. Nothing will be accomplished in his first term.

On the other hand, Hillary claims she's a Progressive that gets things done, implying Bernie can't. It's absurd, but it's working. Bernie needs to or something similar next time she says it.

[JudyM]

207. Lol!

[redstateblues]

209. "his first term" LOL

If Bernie did not deliver on any of his extravagent promises and only raises taxes- pretty funny projecting a 2nd term-he would definitely be primaried like he want to primary our President. Bernie will never win in the GE

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

242. You guys only see what's under your noses.

Hillary will get nothing, not even SCOTUS appointees. People hate her, stop listening to Chris Matthews slobbering about the good old days of Tip and the Gipper.

Electing Hillary is a commitment to the status quo. Congratulations, you're relatively happy with the status quo.

A Bernie win indicates the party has left you behind (to political revolution) and is a signal to the hundreds of Dems endorsing Hillary that they, like Hillary, must move with Bernie or get swept out.

You miss the significance of that, so let me repeat it. From the very start, Hillary has been forced toward Bernie, not vice versa. That's not leadership. That's playing defense, her comfort zone. She loves being attacked, she reminds us daily. You can surely expect the rest of the establishment to move toward Bernie, as well, should he win. At this point, the establishment wants to protect its interests and maintain the status quo.

The establishment would naturally think primary challenge, today. He's not a Democrat and he's a threat to the status quo, i.e., the establishment.

It's worth repeating, because this point never penetrates the shell around Hillary and her supporters: she will accomplish nothing. People think the Rs are obstructionist now? They revile her. As she's doing in this primary, Hillary is going to be playing the woman card a lot if she gets elected. For someone who wants to cozy up to Obama, she should have learned that lesson from him. He never stooped so low as to blamed racism for the attacks being hurled at him. That's leadership. "Oh woe is me" isn't.

Another thing you all miss: Obama was the change candidate, but turned into an establishment president. People want change more than ever, which is why someone calling for change for 30 years is resonating.

Finally, people are tired of Hillary's dumb wars.

[redstateblues]

256. Bernie has no allies. Congressional candidates would get as far away

As they could from Sanders and his tax raising agenda. Bernie has spent his career railing against Democrats so now they would jeopardize their seats to help him? The hard left turned on Obama in his first year. How long would Bernie get? Now I hear BSS saying Bernie would need a second term to accomplish anything. If Bernie spent his first term trying to raise revenue for his proposals there would not be a second. This whole notion of a political revolution is like an ad campaign. It's not real and I don't buy it. I will say it's a brilliant scheme to get the youth vote. Brilliant.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

259. Fair enough.

They both have huge obstacles to overcome once elected. That said, I'm confident either will win. I am completely behind Bernie, and hope he wins, but I'm predicting a Hillary win. Will be interesting to see if he can take it from her, like Obama did, or she can blow it. This is hers to lose.

[CorporatistNation]

220. How Can ANY Sentient Human Be "Convinced" By Hillary?

The facts are the facts and ... if Trust in a candidate matters at all, Hillary cannot OBJECTIVELY reach eve the lowest of low bars for trust and integrity.

[bravenak]

227. Um, duh? We are robots. AI.

Hello? We love our leader.

[itsrobert]

317. So Bernie can give us single payer and free college?

Bullshit.

[TCJ70]

318. Hey Robert...

...I'm of the opinion that neither of them would get much done in a first term. The difference is that Bernie has a commitment to changing the culture in Washington when he works from the top, and motivates citizens to work from the bottom. Hillary doesn't seem to want to address the problem of obstruction in Washington, which is where my comment comes from.

That's why his message from day one has been to get involved, stay involved, and we can do the social reforms that need to happen.

[itsrobert]

319. I'm of the opinion Bernie will not be able to work with a republican congress

and get anything done.

And he will lose a 2nd term run because of it.

Down the tubes will go ACA, Social Security, the Supreme Court will be even more conservative.

Obama has accomplished much in his term. Those gains are in jeopardy if all three branches are controlled by the republicans.

[TCJ70]

320. How will HRC improve the ACA with that same Republican congress?

You know, the one who voted to repeal it 60 times?

[itsrobert]

321. She may not be abe to rightaway, but 8 years more time of ACA

will make it tougher for the republicans to throw it out if they ever have the congress and Executive branch again.

[TCJ70]

322. So, you're going to hedge your bets...

...with someone who has expressed no interest in motivating the electorate to change Congress's makeup to ensure the future survival of any social reform. Yet, Bernie, who wants to work towards long-term change and has a clear commitment and plan to do it, is not at all a consideration?

If Bernie is elected, you will see a change in this country in 4 years. Far sooner than the 8 you seem to be willing to wait.

[itsrobert]

323. Sorry, but Bernie is not gong to get anything done

Obama has done some long term change and those same voters are now backing Bernie because they think he was a "USED CAR SALESMAN" (that was an actual thread on DU. Look it up). Wait tell those voters find out they are not getting single payer and free tuition. I can see it now, "Sanders, is nothing more than an Used Car Salesman" postings at DU.

[Godhumor]

2. Welcome back! n/t

[bravenak]

4. Thanks!

[rbrnmw]

5. thanks for posting

you are rocking it today girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bravenak]

6. You know I read everything!

[rbrnmw]

14. ...

[Punkingal]

23. Have you read about what Bill Clinton's crime bill did to African American men?

[bravenak]

24. The one Bernie voted for?

Yes. I also know which candidate voted for it. Hint: it was not Hillary.

[Punkingal]

26. She was the First Lady...she supported his policies and she is running on being First lady.

[bravenak]

29. But Bernie Voted For it.

[Bonobo]

32. There's video of her pushing the bill.

You got video of Bernie doing that?

No, I don't think you do.

[bravenak]

34. I have his vote for it. It was a YES vote. On the bill.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Because the bill contained the Violence Against Women Act. (But, of course, you know this already)

Bernie is already on record for 1 ) opposing much of the bill; and 2 ) ultimately voting for it because of the Violence Against Women Act.

Mr. Speaker, how do we talk about the very serious crime problem in America without mentioning that we have the highest rate of childhood poverty in the industrialized world, by far, with 22 percent of our children in poverty and 5 million who are hungry today? Do the Members think maybe that might have some relationship to crime? How do we talk about crime when this Congress is prepared, this year, to spend 11 times more for the military than for education; when 21 percent of our kids drop out of high school; when a recent study told us that twice as many young workers now earn poverty wages as 10 years ago; when the gap between the rich and the poor is wider, and when the rate of poverty continues to grow? Do the members think that might have some relationship to crime?

Mr. Speaker, it is my firm belief that clearly, there are some people in our society who are horribly violent, who are deeply sick and sociopathic, and clearly these people must be put behind bars in order to protect society from them. But it is also my view that through the neglect of our Government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world, and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country, and all of the executions in the world, will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-1994-04-13/html/CREC-1994-04-13-pt1-PgH49.htm

[bravenak]

50. I want to hear him discuss it NOW.

If he feels he contributed to the situation and why he should now be trusted on that issue. Either he should have voted no or not given a rousing speech AGAINST it. The vote had more impact than the speech. Words are wind.

[Kentonio]

79. So you could now be accusing him of voting against the Violence Against Women act instead?

[bravenak]

80. Addressing it now has no impact on his past vote

Why is it a problem for me to want him to address his record?

[Kentonio]

83. He addressed it at the time he cast the vote. Why would anything have changed since then?

[bravenak]

84. He's running for president.

[Arazi]

87. Disingenuous at best. You know why he voted for it

he has explained it as has everyone else.

This schtick is old and tired especially in light of Hillary's troubled votes and positions.

[bravenak]

92. People bring up the IWR even though she has addressed it many times.

His speech was not sufficient. I want to hear him discuss how he feels NOW.

[Arazi]

99. Lol, nothing he says will change your mind

even as someone PM'd me the thread where you admit to trolling because you hate Sanders' supporters that much.

So I'm going with nothing anyone says, especially him, will matter one whit. Its an exercise in narcissism otherwise Hillary's far more bloody, egregious acts would rank higher on your "demands" for "discussion".

As it stands, you refuse to "discuss" her crap even now

[bravenak]

100. Nothing will change my mind. Very true.

After the BLM thing? Nothing can wipe that from my mind.

[Arazi]

101. Oh but black youth are super predators who need to be brought to heel

is easily forgotten?

And Clinton in bed with Big Prison? Not on your mind right? (Oh isn't mass incarceration one of your issues?)

And shredding the brown and black kids with cluster bombs? Not troubling your beautiful mind eh?

[bravenak]

102. Sad that he voted for it.

[Arazi]

106. HRC voted for cluster bombs and war with Iraq

She wants to kill even more black and brown people in Syria and Libya (and let's not forget Honduras)

That's pretty sad you're okay with that.

Or that she's in bed with Big Prison which is harming POC here

That's sad.

Your faux concern is also pretty sad.

[bravenak]

108. You keep saying that.

I know.
Talking about her does not change his yes vote on mass incarceration.

[Arazi]

117. You demand discussion from him, even tho it won't matter

a damn what he says which you admit in post 100 knowing full well he's already discussed it.

But you refuse to discuss her. I love exposing your obvious hypocrisy. I can do this all day

[bravenak]

119. I can discuss or not if I please.

Why people care I have no idea!!!!

[Arazi]

120. Of course you can!! Please proceed!

Its fascinating to watch you avoid Hillary's bad stuff, especially on POC issues - those you claim are primary for you.

The cognitive dissonance factor is very interesting for me so I'm glad you're persisting actually.

[bravenak]

122. POC do not need non POC attacking us with it constantly

Like we were the ones who wrote/did it.

Fact is, I just really cannot stand the condescention and paternalism. But I am glad it's neverending because it helps Hillary.

[Arazi]

129. Nobody's saying you (or any POC) wrote any of this

I'm trying to glean an understanding how you personally rationalize your support in light of the facts of Clinton's troublesome votes and actions especially in the areas you profess to be the most interested.

Your persistent deflections are fascinating to me so there's that too

[bravenak]

130. You really want to know?

Pm me. Then you will.
Or? Check my journal and see why I am in opposition to the Sanders revolution.

[Arazi]

139. I understand mean Bernie supporters drove you away

I don't do PM's - from reddit I've learned that's just too much drama.

So mean Bernie supporters are how you rationalize Hillary's support of cluster bombs, mass incarceration and racist comments?

[bravenak]

172. I see them as unsupportable at this timd.

[Kentonio]

89. And...?

[bravenak]

91. He needs to say something now.

[Kentonio]

97. Why? You're asking a question that was answered years ago. What is the point of asking again?

[bravenak]

98. It was years ago. I want to hear him discuss it NOW.

[Kentonio]

111. I'm fairly sure he's been asked about it multiple times already during this campaign season.

I don't have a link to hand though, so I'll keep my eyes out for one.

[Number23]

145. Clearly your numerous and ummm.. DEVOTED fans have missed you terribly.

I'm not even supposed to be here right now but saw this post and wanted to say welcome back, girl.

[bravenak]

218. Thank you!!!

Am SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!
Many have missed me for no damn reason at all. It's weird that they even care that much.

[Arazi]

105. She admits in post 100 that even if he addresses it NOW, it won't matter

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

257. I'm with bravenak, too. It doesn't matter to me, either. Carry on! :)

[Vattel]

211. I have yet to see a DU Clinton supporter be honest about this.

[Luminous Animal]

216. Yep. 'He needs to apologize' He needs to apologize for nothing. The record clearly shows he

thought it was a shitty bill and would result in more human being thrown in jail. The record clearly shows that he voted for it because it contained the Violence Against Women Act.

Hillary was all about 'super-predators' and more prisons and more police. Bernie was all about giving human beings resources to get a leg up… a fighting chance… good schools, good housing, a robust social safety net. Not prison.

But to the Hillary camp, history does not matter. It all about what she says today. Or yesterday, unless yesterday is inconvenient. So, today!

[Vattel]

217. Thanks for helping to set the record straight.

[Chitown Kev]

222. Yeah, and Vermont had a big problem with mass incarceration

of the few blacks that lived there.

People hold Hillary accountable for her votes and statements, why can't y'all hold Bernie accountable for his.

The hypocrisy of it all is infuriating...

[bravenak]

225. I know!!!!!

I mean just say they all suck. Damn!

[Luminous Animal]

226. Could you point to one office that he held that would change that.

[bravenak]

234. You know we know he couldn't do anything right?

Unless.... BULLY PULPIT? Naw.


She also did not hold an office that could change that. And Bill aint runnin.

But I liked this: http://www.centrictv.com/news-views/centric-news/articles/2015/04/29/hillary-clinton-calls-for-end-of-mass-incarceration.html

[Luminous Animal]

235. That would be a no.

[bettyellen]

194. so he was against it yet voted for it anyway! omg- a politician!

I thought he was consistent or never traded horses and all that. Nope, I know they all do.

[workinclasszero]

33. Damn it....those pesky facts again bravenak

[bravenak]

35. I know!

[JustAnotherGen]

53. Former O'Malley supporter here

I thought she was running as former SOS - not first lady.

In all of my observations she's been the "I'll retaliate" candidate/Foreign Policy Wonk this election. The Obama Admin insider if you will . . .

[Punkingal]

308. She mentions being First Lady.

[JustAnotherGen]

309. It's not a secret

Unless you were born during or after Bill Clinton's administration - it is not a secret.

[Punkingal]

315. FFS, she talks about it as part of her experience.

[JustAnotherGen]

316. I don't care!

What part of that is being misunderstood?


I care about that about as much as I do Sanders writing nonsense as young man.

This is the problem with two candidates who both came of age in the 1960's.


We are talking about shit that has nothing to do with today.

Jesus fucking christ I'm pissed O'Malley didn't get farther ahead.

We needed someone without Boomer Baggage.


Jesus fucking christ!

And that's not directed at you. I just don't give a fuck about this election at all.

[Punkingal]

324. Neither do I.

[JustAnotherGen]

325. Excellent!

You aren't voting in your primary either?

[sheshe2]

210. First Ladies get to vote?

[brush]

306. Try Secretary of State/

[Jackie Wilson Said]

179. I suppose if you really cared about that when it happened as opposed to just using it now

in this debate...well, that would make a difference.

Look, I am a Bernie supporter I guess, but I can assure you one way to drive voters AWAY from him is to talk about problems in the African American community to African Americans as if they dont understand the issue.

I say I guess I am a Bernie supporter because I dont know which side is going to piss of the other more and alienate them.

[Punkingal]

189. I did care about it then.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

258. Thank you so much for this. This is what we've all been trying to get through to these Sanders

supporters.

I'm a case in point:

The insult from many Sanders supporters is that black people don't know who he is and don't know his record, so they're going to lecture us about it, and we had better fall in line when we see what he's done for us Negroes...

Well, I've lived in D.C. now for over 20 years. I'm a political scientist by training. I'm obsessed with politics, and I know Sanders very well. I've even met him several times, and he's a very nice guy and great fellow all around.

I was leaning towards Bernie Sanders heavily. He was my candidate. Until...

It came to his views on race vs. class, which I think are 100% wrong.

Then, it was how he handled the BLM matter, which I think was wrong.

Now his supporters are not helping him at all with their derision of black voters--their insane arrogance and condescending attitude towards black voters.

And to the candidate himself: He bashed the president through and through, and that is painful for many black people to see, especially because we witnessed the obstruction and obvious racism that this president has faced. But Bernie Sanders and his supporters believe that despite unprecedented levels of obstruction, despite the racism, President Obama should have been able to wave a magic wand and get everything we wanted done, e.g., single payer--again, even despite opposition from moderate and conservative Democrats. Are black Americans somewhat disappointed in President Obama? Sure. However, we understand nuance. We understand that he didn't have ultimate power to get things done, i.e., he couldn't do much without Congress. This nuanced view fell on deaf ears when it came to Sanders and his supporters, who even wanted the president primaried in 2012.

Now they're asking us to accept that--after all--we realize that Sanders, too, won't be able to accomplish everything, especially not in his first term.

Oh, but wait...

Where was this nuanced view of the way the government ACTUALLY works when they were bashing this president?

Sanders has promised a REVOLUTION on nearly every area of social and economic life (except for when it comes to us blacks, of course), but now he realizes after a few days that he needs to temper his revolutionary talk--understanding that he, too, may not be able to deliver the revolution today. But again, I ask: Where was this compassion, understanding and nuanced view when he and his supporters were damning the president?

So now I'm a woman without a country. I absolutely loathe the Clintons. And I'm almost completely turned off by Sanders.

The OP is right: Sanders has a long way to go before convincing black voters like me, and I think I'm very well informed.

[TCJ70]

272. "(except for when it comes to us blacks, of course)"...

...which parts of his social and economic agenda would NOT have an effect on the black community? As far as I can tell, his policy proposals effect ALL communities. Education, healthcare, and financial issues cross all boundaries of race, class, and gender don't they?

As a side note, at least for this Sanders supporter, I never missed what the revolution meant for each voter: involvement, continued involvement, and time. He's talked about it in every speech he's given since day one. If someone missed it, that's on them, but Bernie's done his part to express the difficulty his proposals will face in the current political climate.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

274. Well, for starters, Reparations. Bernie Sanders claims to be a revolutionary on all accounts, except

for them it comes to race. Reparation is one issue.

[TCJ70]

275. OK, let's say he decides on a policy to give every...

...person descended from a slave $100,000. What other issue is he failing on? I'm trying to get a full picture of how you feel Sanders lacks in relating with the black community.

Some things I know he's committed to:
- Investigating all incidents of deaths of unarmed individuals when police are involved
- Restoring voting rights to ex-felons
- Scaling back significantly the "War on Drugs"

There's a lot more here:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

276. I'll look at what he says at the think and go from there. Much appreciated.

[TCJ70]

278. No worries...

...I look forward to your response. I also think it would be nice to have an OP about it, if you're up for it. Later!

[loyalsister]

314. Let's talk about reparations....

These videos lay it out and Hillary was not there to listen or give an opinion.

http://www.mnnoc.org/iowa

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

330. I don't give a damn about Hillary because she's not getting my vote anyway.

I'd like for Sanders to convince me why I should vote for him.

Don't deflect by bringing up Hillary Clinton. She means nothing to me!

[Blasphemer]

311. Thank you for this post... excellent summation... it should be an OP.... nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

334. Much appreciated. I'm tired and frustrated. :(

[Blasphemer]

335. I feel much the same way

And I can relate to being a "woman without a country." In previous elections cycles, I haven't felt this way. In some ways, I am appreciative of Sanders and his "revolution," not for the reasons many are, but because it has exposed hard truths that people on the left have been in willful denial about for too long. It's also shown me that I've learned a lot in the past few years and I am more likely to question things that I may not have in the past. Come November, people on the right AND left will need to get real with themselves and see how the failures they have experienced are directly related to the marginalization of the experiences of people of color.

[BlueMTexpat]

8. From your link ...

Over the past few weeks, Sanders has cut into Clinton’s national lead, according to a January poll released by Monmouth University. But in one key demographic, Clinton’s actually gaining ground. The same poll showed that support for Clinton among black and Latino voters has increased by 10 percentage points, while Sanders enjoyed a 3 percentage point boost. Support among black and Latino communities will become even more important as the race moves beyond Iowa and New Hampshire.
...
“I like a lot of what Bernie has to say,” Freddye's husband, Fred Ross, chimed in, but he doesn’t see Sanders as a practical choice and is also supporting Clinton. He was formerly the head of the New Hampshire Seacoast chapter of the NAACP, but spoke to the Free Press solely as a private citizen and did not want his opinion to be taken as an endorsement on behalf of anyone except himself. He said Jealous's endorsement didn't sway him.

"I've always been a person who thinks for myself," he said.

Good to "see" you back, bravenak!

[bravenak]

13. Nice to see you too!

[stonecutter357]

9. K&R!

[NurseJackie]

10. At this point, any last-minute effort to appeal to NH's minority voters ...

... will be seen as a cynical ploy and insincere. Bernie and his hardcore fans have already locked-in how they are perceived. It's pretty clear what their priorities are.

It appears that people are starting to pay closer attention, and from the looks of it, they're not liking what they see in the Sanders campaign.

[bravenak]

17. What we see is different than what his 'base' sees.

I think the efforts should have begun long ago.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

260. They need to understand and fully accept that black voters have ALWAYS been **strategic** voters...

This is quite evident in how we approach the two main political parties:

First, we know that the Republican Party is indifferent, at best, and hostile, at worst, towards black voters.

Second, we realize and understand that the Democratic Party is only a little better than the Republican Party; it is more representative of America than the Republicans--and a little less hostile to people of color than the Republicans.

Thus, our heart may tell us that while Bernie Sanders is probably the better candidate on issues that matter to us as a whole, HRC has the BEST CHANCE of being elected.

White liberals, listen up:

Black people were squarely in Hillary Clinton's corner in 2007. Not only did we not know (collectively) who Barack Obama was, we didn't think he could get elected. It was only until after Iowa that some of us started to be attracted to him. And it was only AFTER the Clintons' racist campaign kicked off before the SC primary that more of us sat up and paid attention to Obama.

The strategy? Obama can win. And he could likely beat the Republican challenger.

This is NOT happening with Bernie Sanders, sadly. Most of us are simply not convinced that he can win. We may not like the Clintons, but we believe that she has a much better chance of beating the Republicans.

You're going to have to accept this reality and stop talking down to black voters.

Unless Bernie Sanders HIMSELF can change the narrative and convince us, not only can he win, but also CAN HE DELIVER IN A REPUBLICAN-DOMINATED CONGRESS? We don't want to hear about Hillary Clinton. We already know her. We want to hear what BERNIE SANDERS is going to do! Stop using HRC to deflect. Sanders is the one who needs to convince people.

[SidDithers]

11. DU rec...nt

Sid

[mcar]

16. K&R

Welcome back!

[leftofcool]

17. Rec

[Bonobo]

22. Maybe this would convince them.

Watch it, Bravenak, if you dare.

[bravenak]

25. Ahh!

That doesn't work, you know. Trying to help him by posting things about her. Remember, Bernie voted for that crime bill. Check Vermonts incarceration stats. Not good for black men. Perhaps his vote contributed to certain issues. Has he spoken about his vote? Is he regretful? I know she has apologized as has her husband, a thing us folks rarely recieve. Apologies were in order at the very least.

[Bonobo]

27. Hey man, if you can stomach that level of racism, good for you I guess.

I personally would not be able to.

[bravenak]

28. I have dealt with FAR WORSE!

I am no shrinking violet. This time it's not her side doing it.

[Punkingal]

30. Bernie is not a racist.

[bravenak]

31. Who said he was? Nobody I know.

[1StrongBlackMan]

48. LOL ... But that was right on cue! eom.

[bravenak]

54. Clockwork.

[Gothmog]

206. Yep

[rbrnmw]

285. it's the same old song

they don't get that black folks have a mind of their own. They will do what they damn well please with their vote.

[1StrongBlackMan]

286. Which, of course, is the expectation that they would have others apply to them ...

and the source of much indignation, were they told they should act otherwise.

[rbrnmw]

287. exactly

[1StrongBlackMan]

289. I was wondering if you, or anyone, would be able to understand that ...

I was typing really quickly.

[rbrnmw]

290. I understood it to mean

if we told them voting for Hillary was in their best interest and when they said no we brow beat them they would get really angry and it wouldn't go well

[1StrongBlackMan]

291. Yes. Exactly. Yet, they can't seem to understand that ...

I guess because what they think is RIGHT; whereas, what others think is the product of tribalism/low information/Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever ... anything but conscious, and judicious, thought.

[rbrnmw]

292. it's insulting I am sure they know that by now

so that tells me if they can't persuade you they will insult you

[1StrongBlackMan]

294. It tells me more than that ... It tells me that their ...

"who me? ... what?" routine after being called on the behavior is just that ... a routine.

[bravenak]

293. Yes

[Gothmog]

165. No one is calling Sanders a racist but there are valid reasons for lack of AA support for Sanders

No one is calling Sanders a racist but there are good reasons why the demographics are not working for Sanders and why many voters including some African American voters are not supporting Sanders. Demographics are important in that this explains one of the big divides between Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters. There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democratic voters are not supporting Sanders.

I understand why Sanders supporters dislike talking about demographics but the fact remain that Sanders supporters tend to not like President Obama and that dislike affects the amount of support that Sanders is getting from certain demographic groups.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

262. I could not have written this any better. Bravo!! And thank you so much!

[Gothmog]

271. I like Sanders but I am not willing to abandon President Obama's legacy

Sanders is a good man and I like some of his positions even I doubt that they can ever be adopted. However, I live in the real world and I also believe that President Obama has been a great POTUS and accomplished a great deal. I am not willing to give up on the accomplishments of President Obama

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

273. Very reasonable. And if one cares anything about polls, the vast majority of Democrats like

Obama and his policies and want to continue them...

[Arazi]

60. FYI, bravenak can't provide any evidence Clinton has ever apologized

she keeps making the assertion Hillary's apologized for this disgustingly racist comments, yet there's no evidence of that



So kinda funny she wants Sanders to apologize for that vote but HRC gets a pass. Selective outrage

[JustAnotherGen]

56. Good point on black male incarceration rates up there

Isn't it disproportionate to the population in general - but at a higher average than in the US?

[bravenak]

59. Apparently they are second only to Iowa!

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf

~1 percent of the population
~10 percent of inmates
Very disproportionate. I Wish they had a champion to fight for them in that State.

[Arazi]

62. Hillary is in bed with Big Prison fyi

As immigration and incarceration issues become central to the 2016 presidential campaign, lobbyists for two major prison companies are serving as top fundraisers for Hillary Clinton.
Corrections Corporation of America and the Geo Group could both see their fortunes turning if there are fewer people to lock up in the future....

Richard Sullivan, of the lobbying firm Capitol Counsel, is a bundler for the Clinton campaign, bringing in $44,859 in contributions in a few short months. Sullivan is also a registered lobbyist for the Geo Group, a company that operates a number of jails, including immigrant detention centers, for profit....

[F]ully five Clinton bundlers work for the lobbying and law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld.

Corrections Corporation of America, the largest private prison company in America, paid Akin Gump $240,000 in lobbying fees last year. The firm also serves as a law firm for the prison giant, representing the company in court.

Akin Gump lobbyist and Clinton bundler Brian Popper disclosed that he previously helped CCA defeat efforts to compel private prisons to respond to Freedom of Information Act requests.[.div]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/7/23/1405229/-Private-Prison-Corporations-Stand-With-Hillary-Clinton

[JustAnotherGen]

63. I'm not voting in the Primary

And my response has nothing to do with Sanders.

It's just fact - Vermont isn't as liberal as folks want it to be. There are articles dating back to 2007 and 2008 which explore how QUICKLY their black male incarceration rate jumped exponentially.

Read down thread a bit and you'll see who I think is going to run away with NH.

[Arazi]

66. And my reply was meant in good faith as an fyi

you're absolutely right about NH

[Arazi]

57. There's no evidence she's EVER apologized

YOU can't even provide evidence when directly confronted on another thread.

She's never apologized

[azurnoir]

67. wasn't she Bill's co-president? If memory serves Bill promised 2 for the price of 1

he stated

[bravenak]

71. Yes.

That's why it's partially her for supporting it. It also is the fault of those that voted for it, as did the Senator.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

261. Again...

WE KNOW HILLARY CLINTON!!

Bernie Sanders has to convince us!

Stop deflecting.

[Amimnoch]

283. Perhaps more than a select snippit?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4557866/hillary-clinton-criminal-justice-drug-policy-circa-1996

Is it your assertion that only blacks are part of violent gangs? Then it kind of makes the clip irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Gang activity disproportionately affects poor neighborhoods more than wealthy neighborhoods. Would you agree to this much?

Reduction in gang activity therefore, logically improves quality of life and safety of the citizens in the poorer neighborhoods. Would you agree with that statement?

Income inequality disproportionately affects minorities. Agree?

Unless I've lost you on one of these statements, the logical conclusion is that reducing gang activity (which was the ACTUAL topic of that speech), will directly improve the lives of poorer (majority minority) neighborhoods.

The results of the crack down on gang activity, in particular, is also easy enough to demonstrate:


If you want to focus on the private prison system as an atrocity of Human rights? You've got an ally here.
If you want to attack the disgusting abuses by law enforcement of the power that has been entrusted to them, and the use of that power to abuse, and in many cases murder the citizens they are charged with protecting? You've got an ally here.

If you want to use a snippet of a video to paint a false picture of a candidate who has worked for human rights? Nope.

[Ligyron]

41. Glad you're Back Bravenak!!

I disagree about the Bern 'tho..

who was it sponsored that crime bill anyway?

Wasn't it Bill who signed it?

[bravenak]

42. Hey!

I hope you don't think he let the 'establishment' force his hand. He's a FIGHTER!
Bill has apologized as has Hillary. We black folks RARELY get that much, for sure. I think all parties should own up to their part. The Clintons have.

[Gothmog]

45. Welcome back

[bravenak]

46. Yo!

[cyberswede]

47. Welcome back!

I hate it when good DUers are on time out.

However, the article's headline should read "Two Black Voters in NH Unconvinced by Sanders."

[TeeYiYi]

51. Glad to see you back...

...in time for Black History Month. Your voice is important to the diversity of DU. Too many black voices have been silenced here.

TYY

[bravenak]

75. The shortest month.

Sadly. Good morning to you!

[Sunlei]

52. will take a while for Seniors who already have had their medicare & ss benefits for many years.

[betsuni]

55. You are back! I am excited. My tail is wagging. nt

[bravenak]

72. Omg!!

Hi!

[NaturalHigh]

58. As blacks make up 1.1% of the New Hampshire population...

how will this affect the primary? The one who gets the most votes still wins, right?

[bravenak]

68. Few delegates.

The more diverse state have more delegates. She wins those. NH does not mean much in the scheme of things. After NH, she will win both SC and most of the Super Tuedays states. His highlight of his campaign may very well BE NH. After that? I see few states besides colorado that he wins.

[NaturalHigh]

69. "His highlight of his campaign may very well BE NH."

I don't doubt that for a second. Super Tuesday will likely finish Senator Sanders.

[bravenak]

70. Nice to agree

[JustAnotherGen]

61. I still think Sanders runs away with the NH

Delegates. That's his state to lose. And how much of an impact could the black vote have up there?

Compared to South Carolina 28% of the population vs 13% of the population US wide.

NH is just 1.5%

[bravenak]

73. Me too.

I just see no path after that. It will be loss after loss.

[LexVegas]

64. Of course they aren't. They're not stupid. nt

[bravenak]

65. Exactly

[mwrguy]

74. Good to see you posting, bravenak

[bravenak]

76. Thanks!

I should't be.

[PeaceNikki]

77. I hearted you, bravenak.

[bravenak]

82. Thank you!

[Iliyah]

78. Welcome back!

Interesting read, thank you,

[bravenak]

81. Yo!!

I know. Interesting indeed.

[Gothmog]

85. From the article cited in OP

I found this to be interesting

Over the past few weeks, Sanders has cut into Clinton’s national lead, according to a January poll released by Monmouth University. But in one key demographic, Clinton’s actually gaining ground. The same poll showed that support for Clinton among black and Latino voters has increased by 10 percentage points, while Sanders enjoyed a 3 percentage point boost. Support among black and Latino communities will become even more important as the race moves beyond Iowa and New Hampshire.

[bravenak]

96. Things are looking grim after NH.

[tammywammy]

86. Welcome back!

[bravenak]

95. Thank you!

[Gothmog]

88. The polling cited in OP is consistent with this polling

And Sanders is still not polling well with African American or Latino voters and so maybe he needs to change what he is doing http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/01/poll-sanders-gains-stop-short-of-minorities.html#

Team Sanders is certainly focused on the problem, with a variety of campaign efforts focused on minority voters in the works. The talking points they are putting out there, however, are less than convincing, as I learned as a guest on the public radio show "To the Point" yesterday, when I heard a Sanders supporter argue that an Iowa win would greatly boost Bernie's African-American support just like it did for Obama in South Carolina in 2008. The idea that Sanders's potential to win the black vote in South Carolina is analogous to that of the first African-American president does not pass the laugh test. Still, any early-state win for Sanders, even in exceptionally honkified Iowa and New Hampshire, will likely create some sort of generalized bounce. The question is how high, and how loyal minority voters prove to be to Hillary Clinton, her husband, and her implicit ally Barack Obama. It's worth remembering that she defeated Barack Obama handily among Latinos in 2008, and that Bill Clinton enjoyed robust support in both communities.

Monmouth University has a new national poll out that casts some fascinating, if very preliminary, light on this subject. Compared to its poll in December, Monmouth shows Sanders making pretty big gains: Clinton was up 59-to-26 last month, and only 52-to-37 now. But among black and Latino voters, Clinton has actually expanded her lead from 61-to-18 to 71-to-21. In other words, a legitimate "Sanders surge" nationally has coincided with a deterioration of his standing with the voters he will most need for a breakthrough after the first two contests of the primary season.

Sanders is actually losing ground with African American voters and Sanders' current tactics are not evidently working.

Sanders will not be the nominee unless he can expand his base of supporters. Super Tuesday will be a long day for Sanders. Vermont is one of the last states with 90+% white voting populations

[bravenak]

93. I noticed his numbers slip.

I think I know exactly what is wrong. Too much anger.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

263. Too much anger and failure to acknowledge or accept that NO Democratic Party candidate

Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2016, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

can win the nomination without a sizable proportion of the black vote.

Whenever I hammer this point, it seems to fall on deaf ears for some on the Sanders side.

They seem to think it's an exaggeration or a joke. In fact, their arrogance grows.

But however they feel, facts are facts:

No Democratic Party candidate can win the nomination without a SIZABLE proportion of the black electorate. That is just the truth.

Now, more bad news for the Sanders campaign unless he makes inroads:

The Hispanic vote is also very important. And the Clintons have always done exceptionally well with the Latino vote.

Now, Sanders' supporters can ridicule POC all they want, but if they were smart, they'd spend less time lecturing and deriding black and Hispanic voters, and much more time trying to connect with the Sanders campaign to get him to do better as far as convincing POC that he's their candidate.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

90. K&R. Welcome back! nt

[bravenak]

94. Thanks!

[m-lekktor]

103. Welcome back, Bravenak!

I am sure I will disagree with you on most things in regards to this primary but the people I disagree with are what make this place interesting to me! if I agreed with everybody i would be BORED!! I actually looked at your transparency page the other day wondering when you were gonna be back and somehow miscalculated your return day. I had you coming back in the 10th, not sure how i got the simple math wrong.

[bravenak]

104. Yo!

I'm sure we can disagree and still behave ourselves!!

[Bobbie Jo]

109. Soooo glad to see you back!

Your voice was sorely missed.

Kicking your thread...

[bravenak]

110. Thank you!!!

[sheshe2]

212. Hey sweetie!

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo very good to have you back. I missed you here. Then again I was on time out as well.

One hide, I said I supported a nation of color. I embraced it. I was juried for preaching white genocide?!! WTF.

[bravenak]

213. Oh jesus!

I swear it's always some new thing. White genocide? No. Just no.

[sheshe2]

214. ................................

Yup!

[bravenak]

215. Sadder and more stupid.

The things folks come up with.

[sheshe2]

233. Yes~

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

264. LOL!! I love you! It's so great to have you back. I think I'm a masochist for coming back to this

place. But seeing you guys makes it all worthwhile.

[sheshe2]

295. Hey sweetie.

So good to see you. It is good to be back, sorta. I am sticking with the groups, I plan to post the heck out of the BOG. Dayum I am going to miss that man. He is the best President of my lifetime.

You rock LS!

[LittleBlue]

112. Black voters shooting themselves in the foot

The irony in all this is that Hillary's policies won't help African-Americans but will benefit so-called Bernie bros. The status quo massively benefits white males.

Bernie's free college proposal, whether you believe it can pass or not, is probably the only proposal that will make a significant improvement in the black community.

The higher-income white community thanks the black community for its support.

[bravenak]

114. Thank you for deciding what's best for us without any solicitation

That is a prime example of why he lags far behind. So many folks telling us whats best for us!!! Yay! We really need you to help us know what will benefits us most because it is so so hard for us poor uninformed creatures to do any thinking for ourselves.
I love getting lectures on things I already know because I live it from somebody who is just an observer. Ahh paternalism! Tastes great!!

[LittleBlue]

135. We have no problem telling southern whites they are voting against their interests

But say it about another group and suddenly it's forbidden? Right.

Bernie won't help me. Go show me and vote for the status quo. It's working out really well us whites and Asians.

[bravenak]

136. You may have no problem doing so. I do.

Their interests are different than ours. They rate things differently.
Bernie won't help me either. He says things. But i see no track record of ensuring diversity. If you care about black jobs you hire them. Not just talk about black jobs.

[LittleBlue]

144. Their differences are different than ours

They have no access to ancestral wealth, unlike whites who use that wealth to build more wealth to help pay for college.

Access to higher education is maybe the only thing that can break this cycle. Those who go to college, from the black community, are disproportionately debt-burdened, meaning they can't get ahead like their white counterparts.

Why is anyone content with this? No matter how unrealistic people judge Bernie's proposals, trying for a real solution must be better than acquiescing to something we know doesn't work.

[bravenak]

147. How do lectures from white liberals on how we should view the world help sway anybody?

We can think for ourselves, quiet as it is kept. Not necessary for you to understand. But the lectures are a big problem. We are just as informed as you and do not need or desire any assistance on being whatever it is you want us to just to help you win this thing.

All that stuff is akready known by blacks before you guys even think about it. Are we children? Do we really need your lectures? Or you informing us?

[LittleBlue]

155. You're all about identity politics only

No proposed solutions, just talking about the race of the person giving you an opinion.

Sad.

Are we children? Do we really need your lectures? Or you informing us?

You're not children, but you'd do well to listen rather than just vote against your own interest to prove a point. You can do whatever you want. We'll sit here 8 years from now discussing why the black community got poorer. How could that have happened?!

[bravenak]

157. Identity politics means my identity which matters to me.

Knowing that my issues are derided among his support as wedge issues and identity politics is what sealed the deal.
Telling us we'd do well to listen? You'd do better by listening to us since without us Hilkary wins. I understand that it us difficult to give up a position of percieved authority to the people who actually own their own selves and votes. Hard not to have a say in the way others operate.

The black community got poorer? Oh? So now people care? Where were all these concerned individuals the last 30 years?

My interest is to not let the type that call black issues 'identity politics' have any extra support from anybody i can sway against them. If people think they can talk down to us and paternalize, they can do it by themselves. We can take our vote to a respectful space.

[LittleBlue]

166. Your identity matters to you, but apparently it's key in your decision process about others

It seems to primarily discount anyone not of the race you wish. I don't play those games, and I don't do the backing down thing when you get defensive.

You're wrong. You're supporting the wrong person, a Goldman Sachs lackey. They want to bleed you dry. Vote for Goldman, by all means.

So now people care? Where were all these concerned individuals the last 30 years?

More ad hominem bullshit, like I haven't been posting black wealth charts here for years before Bernie ever came along.

We can take our vote to a respectful space.

Do it! Continue to enrich my community at the expense of your own. That will really show us!

[bravenak]

167. I don't care.

[Bradical79]

288. Jury voted 1-6 to leave it

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Paternalist and racist

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Feb 9, 2016, 03:43 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: That's some damn fine whitespaining right there.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There's nothing racist there, or paternalist. It's just a strong disagreement.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

267. Identity politics has alway matters to white people, to Asian people, to Hispanic people...

...to ALL people.

But when black people, who have ALWAYS supported white candidates, even over black ones, exercise their own political agency, suddenly it's a problem.

[GoneOffShore]

268. This got alerted on.

And the vote was 7-0 to leave it.

[MrMickeysMom]

269. Results of your Jury....

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Tue Feb 9, 2016, 11:15 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

You're all about identity politics only
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1175156

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is ridiculing black voters for not supporting Bernie Sanders.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Feb 9, 2016, 11:20 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: As to the alert - Ummmm - No.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bullshit alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alert seems -- cowardly. Seeking to hide what it cannot/will not argue against.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This poster is NOT ridiculing black voters. It is more likely that this poster is standing up to purposeful disinformation and (let us not forget) alert baiting, as usual. I'm sick of this.

[wildeyed]

192. You should have a problem with that too.

It is not persuading them to change, is it? Hmmm, I wonder why.......

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

266. It's racist. Keep at it and you'll be alerted.

[LittleBlue]

277. I was alerted. The frivolous alert was 0-7'd.

By all means, continue alerting. (In 24 hours, that is)

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

282. Rather than block or alert you, I decided not to stoop to your level. Rather,

I hope to get you to understand why many black voters are not with Bernie Sanders right now:

I am a political scientist by training, and would argue that we do have a responsibility as citizens to know these candidates and their record, what they stand for, and their policy platforms. Then, make a decision based on that. I would never suggest that people vote against their best interests or not vote at all. That would be irresponsible. But, I also accept that when people do make their decision, they do so in good faith; they have a right to vote for whomever they want and for whatever reason they want.

So, let me see if I can shed some light on this phenomenon of black voters supporting Clinton rather than Sanders...

In my conversations with black voters, they tell me that their heart tells them that Bernie Sanders may be the better candidate when it comes to character, record, and policy positions. However, they also want to vote strategically; that is, for the candidate who they feel can beat the Republicans.

So when Bernie supporters are seeing the direction black voters are going, why deride them? These voters are thinking strategically. They want the candidate who can WIN and not just with lofty ideas, regardless of how much they may agree with them.

They don't like Hillary Clinton much. That, to me, is clear. But they still seem to love Bill Clinton. When it comes to his record, no matter what I tell them--what about NAFTA, the Crime Bill, Glass-Stegall--it's not that they don't care; it's just that Bill Clinton was able to connect with them in a way that even Obama had problems with at the beginning.

That last point brings me to another point regarding Sanders:

If he could somehow connect more with black voters, apart from his record, and convince them that he can get what he's promising done, I think he has a chance.

But, as I stated earlier, black voters are STRATEGIC! This has always been true. Black voters have supported white candidates over black candidates since we could vote, so it's not about race and never has been. (Were that the case, say hello to presidents Jackson, Sharpton, Keyes, Cain...and Ben Carson who is beloved in the black community but will never command the black vote.) I'm giving this example because earlier you wrote of "identity politics" and that black voters are putting identity politics over their own best interests. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the complete opposite, really, and history has shown this. More often than not, blacks have sided with the Democratic Party collectively over their own collective interests---just ask the CBC who went along with Bill Clinton's disastrous Crime Bill, NAFTA, welfare reform--all while remaining quiet on his Sistah Souljah moment.

When I assert that black voters are strategic, they want to be convinced that things will happen; that Republicans can be beaten. Obama had to prove himself even when faced with the fact that the vast majority of black voters were in Clinton's camp.

This has to be true also for Bernie Sanders. Like Obama, the ideals are there. The issues are there, for the most part. His record is near perfect. But can he win? And after he wins, can he get it done---all while confronted with ideological factions in his own party, not to mention the Republicans?

This is what Bernie Sanders' supporters are ignoring. Many are too busy ridiculing and deriding black people for their stance. Rather than listening and trying to understand--and then trying to connect to the Sanders team to encourage more inclusivity, I'm seeing the opposite. And that's the problem.

I'm going to be honest, here, too: Despite some disappointment with President Obama, black people still love and revere him! We understand what he has faced. We are frustrated that he couldn't get more done, but we don't blame him! Sanders is hurting with black voters because it sounds like he and his supporters don't like President Obama very much---or, at the very least, they blame Obama rather than the Republicans for the obstruction. It seems that Sanders and many (not all) of his supporters have a special disdain for the president, and that doesn't sit very well with black voters. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

I was once a Bernie supporter. I loathe the Clintons. I now support neither candidate.

Convince me to go back to Bernie. And do it without insulting me or my people. Do it without derision or arrogance.

If you can't convince people without insulting them or their intelligence, then leave us alone for good.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

265. Please continue your arrogant rants against black voters. Keep at it. Then watch as Sanders'

numbers continue to decline in more diverse states.

I can't wait to get to SC and NV!! This place is going to explode!

[LittleBlue]

280. Go right ahead

Vote for the candidate backed by elite wealthy whites. They want her. That laughter you hear is from Wall Street, who can't believe how easy it was.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

281. I and my black brothers and sister will do whatever the fuck we want. Slavery is over!

[KingCharlemagne]

113. When Hillary sends her armies off to do the dirty work of Empire, just whom do you

think will be fighting in those armies and filling the body bags that come back here? Hint: It ain't going to be upper-middle-class BernieBros.

[bravenak]

116. Tactic: fear of loss, fear of future pain

Not helpful to condescend to black voters. We know. knew before you ever could think the thought. Not stupid nor uninformed. Tired of condescention and paternalism and veiled threats, though.

[KingCharlemagne]

124. If black voters help secure the nomnation fir HRC, she will crash

and burn in the GE. Then a Prez Trump or Cruz will teach yu more about loss and pain than my mere words can.

I can see you are bound and determined to lash yourself to the mast of a badly listing ship. And so I shall bid you adieu until after the GE. I hope for your sake that I am wrong in this matter.

[bravenak]

128. Thats nice. Her opponent cannot even beat her in the primary.

And many of my demigraphic are not into him. If he's the nominee, will they stand in line for hours for the guy who wanted Obama Primaried? Don't his GE numbers DEPEND on us actually showing up in swing states? I might show up if the lines are short and fast.

[brooklynite]

115. Where's Cornel West when you need him?

[bravenak]

118. Please!!

If you say his name five times.. He shows up! Shhh!

[wildeyed]

196. Only if you click your heels at the same time. n/t

[bravenak]

197. Say it into the mirror then turn off the lights.

Scary!!!!

[R B Garr]

121. Great to see you! Burlington Free Press is a great local

source. Nice find.

[bravenak]

123. Hey!!

It was nice to find it!!

[GeorgeGist]

126. Unconvincing anecdote.

[bravenak]

131. Unconvincing 'revolution'

[AgingAmerican]

132. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink

Even if they are dying of thirst...

If POC wish to sink the election, so be it, but Hillary will lose the general and they will have to live with the consequences of their own resentments. And those consequences will be very hard felt by POC who will take the brunt of it in the form of lost civil rights and opportunities in their communities.

[bravenak]

133. Maybe the paternalism ruins the revolution

[AgingAmerican]

134. Dropping a wrecking ball on yourself isn't a very well thought out idea

[bravenak]

137. Neither is joining a revolution that treats your kind like children

[AgingAmerican]

152. Then run with your resentments

Consequences to self be damned. Like I said, when the reality of it hits you, it will be too late.

Have a nice day!

[bravenak]

161. At least I'll always have the schadenfreude.

[Stuckinthebush]

138. Ouch!

But so true!

[joshcryer]

154. WB

This Sanders supporter is listening and disavows the dismissive attitudes.

[bravenak]

160. Thank you very very much

[bravenak]

163. Yes I am hilarious.

[joshcryer]

164. The hate directed at her is irrational.

To the point of threatening letters in her mailbox. I don't think that's funny at all.

[TSIAS]

202. Has that been resolved?

Have the FBI or postmaster general come to any conclusions? Supposedly there were going to be investigations and repercussions. I guess crimes like this take time to solve.

[bravenak]

208. Ha!

They said to call them when somebody threatens to kill me. So I have moar knives and uno pistola.

[Starry Messenger]

158. Welcome back!

I shouldn't be here either, but good to see you!!

[bravenak]

159. I know, right?

Better find me a hole to crawl into.

[steve2470]

170. welcome back Bravenak, missed ya!

[bravenak]

171. Thank you!

[wildeyed]

173. Welcome back!

[bravenak]

174. Thanks!!

[wildeyed]

175. Looks like you are all rested up!

You are killing it in this thread

[bravenak]

180. I am so sleepy and I want some snacks.

I got mnm's but that aint it. I think i deserve snacks for this thread.

[wildeyed]

187. They have new flavors now.

I was very tempted by the mint/dark chocolate. Resisted, but clearly not for long if I am still thinking about it. Pretzel flavor.... That sounds evil. Salty and sweet, mmmmmmm.

[bravenak]

188. I want coconut.

And coconut snickers.
But I might try the mint too. And peanut butter. I'm hungry.

[wildeyed]

190. Almond Joy?

Those are the best for coconut cravings.

[bravenak]

191. Mmm!

Yep. Gonna walk to the corner store soon. Yep.

[wildeyed]

193. I already have ice cream.

If the kidlets didn't eat it all when I wasn't paying attention.... Enjoy! You worked for it today

[hoosierlib]

176. So a 75+ year old African Ameican couple from NH speaks for all...

What a load...

[bravenak]

185. He is polling VERY POORLY among BLACKS

[hoosierlib]

195. Recent polling evidence?

[bravenak]

198. Is all over the internet

[hoosierlib]

199. Evidence please...not innuendo from 3 month old polls...

[bravenak]

200. Is your google broken?

[hoosierlib]

204. Nope...just asking for specific evidence to back up your assertion...

[George II]

251. He/she can start with the article you posted way up top.

PS - good to see you posting again!!!

[islandmkl]

177. you don't really want to know, do you? why don't you expose yourself to

Michelle Alexander...why don't you see what Bill Clinton engineered for the black community, all to curry favor with the Repubs he was 'opposing'...

you are remarkably lacking in historical knowledge...which probably works great for your agenda

the 'War on Drugs'...'Get Tough on Crime'... 'Welfare Reform'...and Bernie Sanders as a POC issue? Where does the support for the Establishment Democratic Party of HRC, DWS, et al. come from in the non-white communities?

“Far from resisting the emergence of the new caste system, Clinton escalated the drug war beyond what conservatives had imagined possible a decade earlier. As the Justice Policy Institute has observed, “the Clinton Administration’s ‘tough on crime’ policies resulted in the largest increases in federal and state prison inmates of any president in American history.”99 Clinton eventually moved beyond crime and capitulated to the conservative racial agenda on welfare. This move, like his “get tough” rhetoric and policies, was part of a grand strategy articulated by the “new Democrats” to appeal to the elusive white swing voters. In so doing, Clinton—more than any other president—created the current racial undercaste. He signed the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, which “ended welfare as we know it,” replacing Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) with a block grant to states called Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF). TANF imposed a five-year lifetime limit on welfare assistance, as well as a permanent, lifetime ban on eligibility for welfare and food stamps for anyone convicted of a felony drug offense—including simple possession of marijuana.”
― Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow


"Capitalism does not permit an even flow of economic resources. With this system, a small privileged few are rich beyond conscience, and almost all others are doomed to be poor at some level. That's the way the system works. And since we know that the system will not change the rules, we are going to have to change the system."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

[bravenak]

182. And she was supported the entire way by black community leaders.

Hell even SANDERS voted yes on mass incarceration. I wanted the neighborhoods cleaned up myself. Scary. I actually lived in the hood that some folks just write/talk about.

[bravenak]

184. Sounds interesting.

[noretreatnosurrender]

181. Can't Get Every Voter in Primary

Hilson said Sanders is a “good man,” but he is tired of hearing Sanders speak over and over again about the rich and the poor and Wall Street. Still, he would vote for the candidate who wins the Democratic nomination.

When Bernie wins the nomination looks like he will have Hilson's vote.

[bravenak]

183. Let me know when Bernie polls better in diverse states and I'll consider him.

Till then? See you in SC!

[noretreatnosurrender]

219. Nice to meet you

I don't really follow the polls that much but I fully expect Sanders to earn the votes of large numbers of African Americans, Latinos, Muslims, Asians and others. You can't have the type of political revolution we're talking about without having the best of all of us represented. I already see some movement toward us and hopefully there will be enough time for him to make our case to these communities to earn more votes.

[bravenak]

223. I was with him this summer!!!

Until NETROOTS. Then not so much. He'd have to write me a pm to get me to go slightly neutral by now.
I said a million times that Sanders does not spend enough time with real people of color. Just us! Spends lots of time with white people. Cannot earn our votes till you know us. Cant know us until you kick it. Cant kick it until you come around to us. We are not coming to him.
He gained three points with us to her TEN.

Look. I enjoy the thoughts of the things he promises but once berned twice shy.

[Iggy Knorr]

231. NETROOTS : A Turning Point

I look forward to your amazon best seller!

[bravenak]

232. Hey. That was fucking brilliant.

SEATTLE SS EVENT: THE SAGA CONTINUES

[noretreatnosurrender]

296. Thanks for sharing

I hear you. You are right to be skeptical. Everyone should be skeptical of political candidates. I'm not here to try to convince you to support this campaign. You have to be the one to take a leap of faith for any candidate. No one can do it for you. I've supported plenty of candidates who let me down. I wish there was a guarantee that they will do what they say but there isn't. All any of us can do is to educate ourselves on their positions (their REAL positions) and watch how they handle themselves during a campaign. You know what you're looking for and I know what I'm looking for. When I see it in a candidate I still watch them to see if I can see any tells that they aren't shooting straight. I then vote for the one that is closest to what I want. I worked on Bill Clinton's campaign in '92 and I've watched the Clinton's since then. I just don't think that we can be content to work within the corporate framework that has become business as usual in Washington. I'm very anti-establishment. I want the people involved in their government and right now they are just being used as props. I hope you will continue to point out things that you see that you don't like from my candidate and from yours. I'll try to do the same.

[bravenak]

297. I think you have some good ideas and great insight.

I'll know when I see it. There is something I'm always looking for in a candidate. A person that pays attention to my group, since we get overlooked then used.

[noretreatnosurrender]

332. Thank you

Thanks for the compliment. Sadly most of the time they only pay attention when it's an election. Once they are in they are all too willing to throw their constituents under the bus if it will benefit them. Yet we keep coming back hoping that once, just once we can elect someone that can truly mobilize the country to force the establishment to take their collective fingers off the scales. I don't know if it's possible but I gotta keep trying or I let them win by default. And that thought alone is enough to keep me going despite the heartache and disappointment election after election.

Hey I noticed you've been posting some good articles. Thank you very much. If you see me recommending them know that I'm not stalking you (lol) I'm just happy to be reading interesting pieces. lol

[BooScout]

186. ...

[img][/img]

[bravenak]

201. I should make up some good graphics too!

[BooScout]

203. This place is fun...

http://www124.lunapic.com/editor/#

[bravenak]

205. They always have so many sites to use now.

I try to use my photoshop so I can save the layers just in case.

[Chitown Kev]

221. Good to see you back here, bravenak

we miss you...of course, I haven't been around here too much either.

[bravenak]

224. OMG make me go away!! Please?!?!

I need to cut this shit out. Supposed to be painting smoke in a gradient by 10 am. Small on bristol, cut in half. Just a venus with a calaveras face and an afro on a fire pit being sacrificed with smoke. Need to touch up her skin too.

What you think? Two, three hours? Acrylics. Hate them.

[Chitown Kev]

228. Just do that!

samo samo over here I see...and at "the other place" where someone wrote...I have to send this one to you.

[bravenak]

230. Okay. I have my paint box in the bed and thinking about Sangria.

I'll do it in bed. Fuck these sheets!!

[Chitown Kev]

229. Never mind, the thread that I was looking up got deleted

[FrenchieCat]

237. Look it all those hearts....

Saying for sure....great thread! Thank you for it!

[bravenak]

238. Glad you came!!

I really am appreciative of the hearts! People are so kind today. Really. Barely had any rude comments today. I like it.

[FrenchieCat]

240. I get them rude ones here and there,

but it just adds to my personality!

Great vibes via these hearts for sure!

So Nice to see you!

[Live and Learn]

246. If she wins and the prisons remain full, will you be proud of your posts? nt

[Iggy Knorr]

249. I predict that when HRC is elected first female president

The country will begin to resemble a Geogia O'Keefe painting, so these prison problems wont seem that big of a deal then.

[GoneOffShore]

270. Or just self delete them all.

[bunnies]

299. Prisons are already full because of the Clintons.

Black people in jail pleases some. Surprise!

[Live and Learn]

300. That is why I said remain full. Bernie has promised to take on the prison insustry as one of his

first task. Education and jobs not prison.

Unfortunately some of the people that claim to be upset by the unjust system are now supporting it by supporting Hillary. I find that rather disgusting.

[bunnies]

304. We are in complete agreement.

Professional trolls here suck people in. Some of them deserve Oscars. Some deserve pizza. mmmm pizza.

[ViseGrip]

279. I thought New Hampshire didn't have any black voters?

[Amimnoch]

284. 1.5% by Census.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/33000.html

Almost 12% lower than the national average.

This might lend some credence to Bravenak's claim, since this does happen to be one of the very few states Senator Sanders is polling ahead in.

[Live and Learn]

298. Wrong again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511185549

Feel the Bern!!!

[berniepdx420]

301. This is a very weak sourced article...no facts..no numbers

Let's look at the actual numbers as they come out of NH... I think POC will agree and support Bernie's message (when they hear it) of a rigged system..don't you ?

[bravenak]

302. The Iowa numbers bear this out

He performed poorly among black voters

[berniepdx420]

303. Can we have a link please.. eom

[JonLeibowitz]

307. There will be no link -- Sanders lost the PoC vote by 4% in NH. Very slim (but large MoE)

[Ichingcarpenter]

312. Bernie won the POC vote with the youth

Hillary won the POC vote with the older crowd.



The crow must taste good

[mhatrw]

310. Wow. One minister and two from his congregation, all over 70.

Cool story.

[bravenak]

313. Okay. But bernie already won.

[SheilaT]

327. Yeah, they're so unconvinced that only 48% of those who voted in the Democratic primary voted

for Bernie. I mean, that's a stunning defeat, isn't it?

[bravenak]

328. That was all minorities

Not black voters

[uponit7771]

331. +1

[JimDandy]

329. That's old. Exit polls yesterday showed Sanders did extremely well getting the POC vote in NH. n/t