2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDems, stop lying to yourselves about Hillary: Sure, she “gets s*** done” — atrocious s***, that is
The next line of attacks is designed to put Sanders supporters back on their heels: Clinton is a realist, warts and all, because she is a woman: “YOU DON’T LIKE THAT SHE PLAYS THE GAME? THAT SHE HAS TIES TO THE ESTABLISHMENT? FOR ONE THING, THAT’S HOW SHIT FUCKING GETS DONE. FOR THE OTHER THING, THE BIGGEST THING, A WOMAN DOESN’T GET THE FUCKING OPTION *NOT* TO PLAY THE GAME.”
To recap, Clinton voted to invade Iraq, backed job-killing trade agreements, suggested that black women on welfare were “deadbeats” who were “sitting around the house doing nothing,” called for “more police” and “more prisons” and “more and tougher prison sentences for repeat offenders,” and bases not only her campaign finances but her entire social universe on and amid the superrich who she resides among in Westchester and the Hamptons — because she is a realist who can get things done.
Or because she had to do it this way because she is a woman. Or both.
No matter Sanders’ legion of women supporters, including many outspoken socialists. This argument renders those women invisible in an effort to inoculate pro-Clinton women’s arguments from criticism. The fact that a Sanders supporter might also be a big fan of Elizabeth Warren, and in many cases initially lobbied for her to run for president, is also an automatic nonstarter, as Rebecca Traister made clear: “spare me the wistful paeans to Elizabeth Warren…citing a fondness for her as a get-out-of-sexism card is a dodge.”
Ad hominem attacks against Sanders supporters are on the rise after Iowa, and they are increasingly unkind. Clinton partisans are likely motivated by uncomfortable data points: 86-percent of women under 30 caucusing in Iowa said they support Sanders.
And so the sexism argument doesn’t wash. But since opposing Clinton necessarily entails some unsavory or unfortunate motivation, there are other arguments to pursue. Like that young people, God bless them, are innocent of how the world works.
“Bernie’s attractiveness as a candidate relies on the premise of purity — a political value as ancient as politics itself,” wrote The New Yorker’s Alexandra Schwartz, dismissing her youthful cohort for their naivete before knocking them for not even being very cool young people to begin with. “When his campaign tweets that it’s ‘high time we stopped bailing out Wall Street and started repairing Main Street,’ you have to wonder why his youngest supporters, so attuned to staleness in all things cultural, are letting him get away with political rhetoric that would have seemed old even in 2012.”
<snip>
http://www.salon.com/2016/02/05/dems_stop_lying_to_yourselves_about_hillary_sure_she_get_s_done_atrocious_s_that_is/
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)
Arazi
(6,829 posts)
The hypocrisy is amusing though....
When people bring up mass incarceration and forget who voted yes, I know not to bother.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Have a lovely day.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)So if he had voted against it, the Hillary supporters would be saying that Bernie voted against an assault weapons ban and against the Violence Against Women act. Heads I win, tails you lose...
Meanwhile, moving from the 90s to the current campaign, Bernie was ahead of Hillary in speaking against private prisons and refusing to take money from that industry.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)But does anyone seriously doubt Sanders' positions on criminal justice?
Here is what he actually said in 1994 when debating the bill in question, from
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/8/1410122/-Senator-Sanders-remarks-on-1994-Crime-Bill
Mr. Speaker, it is my firm belief that clearly, there are some people in our society who are horribly violent, who are deeply sick and sociopathic, and clearly these people must be put behind bars in order to protect society from them. But it is also my view that through the neglect of our Government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world, and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country, and all of the executions in the world, will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance.
And in terms of the current campaign, the following is from https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/
The measure of success for law enforcement should not be how many people get locked up. We need to invest in drug courts as well as medical and mental health interventions for people with substance abuse problems, so that people struggling with addiction do not end up in prison, they end up in treatment.
For people who have committed crimes that have landed them in jail, there needs to be a path back from prison. The federal system of parole needs to be reinstated. We need real education and real skills training for the incarcerated.
We must end the over-incarceration of nonviolent young Americans who do not pose a serious threat to our society. It is an international embarrassment that we have more people locked up in jail than any other country on earth – more than even the Communist totalitarian state of China. That has got to end.
We must address the lingering unjust stereotypes that lead to the labeling of black youths as “thugs” and “super predators.” We know the truth that, like every community in this country, the vast majority of people of color are trying to work hard, play by the rules and raise their children. It’s time to stop demonizing minority communities.
Really, unlike Hillary, he was saying the same thing then as he is now. The problem again is that, at a certain point, a congressman can't just pick and choose the pieces of legislation he likes, it's all or none.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They are not on the top of his agenda.
Cogent.
Welcome back, GD: P needs more performance art.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I found it disgusting to call Someone that... I still say it should be deleted. Nothing to be proud of.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)You confuse me.
I applaud you!
JudyM
(29,236 posts) 
Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)That was the bill that cemented mass incarceration into law. The states folowed the Feds in a devastating fashion, causing a butterfly effect which leads us to where we are today. Hillary promoted the bill and has apologized for her role, as has Bill. They expressed much regret and discussed it with african americans who were upset about it. I wonder if there was any regret for being a yes vote on that bill.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)She's drenched in blood from Iraq, Syria, Libya, Honduras and beyond.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It locks up millions of black men, some related to me. I think they should matter.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)so she's not only drenched in blood, she's also in bed with those who are profiting from keeping those young men in prison.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/7/23/1405229/-Private-Prison-Corporations-Stand-With-Hillary-Clinton
Corrections Corporation of America and the Geo Group could both see their fortunes turning if there are fewer people to lock up in the future....
Richard Sullivan, of the lobbying firm Capitol Counsel, is a bundler for the Clinton campaign, bringing in $44,859 in contributions in a few short months. Sullivan is also a registered lobbyist for the Geo Group, a company that operates a number of jails, including immigrant detention centers, for profit....
[F]ully five Clinton bundlers work for the lobbying and law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld.
Corrections Corporation of America, the largest private prison company in America, paid Akin Gump $240,000 in lobbying fees last year. The firm also serves as a law firm for the prison giant, representing the company in court.
Akin Gump lobbyist and Clinton bundler Brian Popper disclosed that he previously helped CCA defeat efforts to compel private prisons to respond to Freedom of Information Act requests.
Oh and she thinks young black boys need to be brought to heel...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)And in bed with the private prison industry...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)appears to be very inconsistent.
You only sometimes care - just like Hillary. Just to score cheap points. Don't really care when it matters
You don't care that she's in bed with the private prison industry?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I care that he voted yes on that bill. It opened the system up to privatization. Interestingly enough.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Addressing the hypocrisy and blood drenching your candidate is tough
I can see why you'd avoid it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)cali and others have recited it many times
I'm sorry you aren't interested in "hearing" it. Inconvenient truths and all that
I notice you refusing to address Hillary's YES! vote for shredded brown and black children all over the planet and her embrace of mass incarceration corporations.
Yes indeed, noticed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Anyone opposed to those bombs should certainly vote no on funding them? Stand on PRINCIPLE! No money, no MIC. One must stop paying for bullets in order to stop them being used, in my opinion.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)you really think anyone should send those men and women into battle un-supplied? You do know Sanders isn't a pacifist right?
But of course you know all of this - these are tired and stale talking points that have been de-bunked numerous times just like the crime bill bullshit you think you can trot out again.
(Or maybe you DO think your black brothers and sisters SHOULD go into battle UN-armed?)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Some like the Senator are willing to use drones.
My point was not debunked. He voted YES.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)she wants even more involvement in Syria and Libya. Her proposal for a no fly zone in Syria will bring us to the brink of WWIII with Russia alone.
She's drenched in blood from Iraq to Honduras. Her cluster bombs are shredding black and brown children around the world. Her cozy relationship with Big Prison is wrecking lives here.
I see you are also studiously avoiding this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511140849
Your tired, stale arguments have been thoroughly debunked over and over on these threads for months - everybody knows it. It's kinda sad you keep trotting them out
Nice opinion.
Omaha Steve
(99,620 posts)Who voted for bombs?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Who votes to fund that war? Congress. How do we pay for bombs? Money from congress.
And he voted YES on that crime bill. I want him to discuss his vote.
Omaha Steve
(99,620 posts) bravenak
(34,648 posts)Unless votes matter? Like his vote for that onmibus crime bill?
She has apologized and discuss the IWR. Will he address his vote?
Omaha Steve
(99,620 posts)http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/12/hillary-clinton-is-not-entitled-to-black-votes.html
Snip: Black voters want what all voters want — access to education, health care and decent jobs. At the same time, the Black Lives Matter movement has revealed that certain issues, such as guaranteeing basic physical safety and reforming the criminal justice system, are higher priorities for black voters than for other groups.
Sanders is a gruff, didactic 74-year-old white man who has lived in Vermont, a state that is only 1 percent black, for over 45 years. He’s never going to win on style. But the more people become familiar with him and his policy positions, the more popular he has and will become. Witness Sanders’ recent passionate endorsement from rapper Killer Mike in front of a raucous multiracial crowd in Atlanta, which immediately went viral. On the issues that matter most to black voters, Sanders has a much stronger record than Clinton.
Sanders, who has publicly opposed the death penalty throughout his congressional tenure, said a month ago, “It is time for the United States of America to join almost every other Western industrialized country on Earth in saying no to the death penalty.”
By contrast, Hillary Clinton said of the death penalty, which is disproportionately applied to black people, “I do not favor abolishing it ... because I do think there are certain egregious cases that still deserve the consideration of the death penalty, but I’d like to see those be very limited and rare, as opposed to what we’ve seen in most states.” In other words, we know that thousands of black men who may or may not have committed any crime have been and will be executed, but we should try to do it less often.
OOPS!
I done wasting time with you. I ain't going to change your mind.
OS
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
oasis
(49,382 posts)sammythecat
(3,568 posts)Doesn't matter at all what you come up with, this is just a game with her.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Akicita
(1,196 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Akicita
(1,196 posts)If prison reform can be done without making neighborhoods less safe then I am all for it. If it means just letting the bad guys out who will return to terrorize POC and poor neighborhoods then I am against it.
cali
(114,904 posts)Not at all surprising. Hilly said that black kids should be brought to heel. But of course you don't express finding that troubling.
Ugh.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that was the bill that opened the wall street casino, and nearly brought down the global economy (and still is poised to). I wonder if there was any regret for being a "Yes" vote on that bill.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I would think he would not vote yes on a bill that helped Wall Street.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Was he supposed to vote "against" all the good parts of the spending bill?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)opposed to the mass incarceration Crime Bill.
I have an honest question, though ... So if the Crime Bill was rolled into the Spending Bill, saying that Bill Clinton signed the Crime Bill isn't exactly true, then. Right?
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)He hadn't lobbied for it, or used it to campaign for re-election.
Otherwise, it seems to me, not so much.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)But it is worth mentioning that the president has the line item veto available.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)In a 6-3 ruling issued on June 25, 1998, the Supreme Court, in the case of Clinton v. City of New York upheld the District Court's decision, overturning the 1996 Line Item Veto Act as a violation of the "Presentment Clause," (Article I, Section 7), of the U.S. Constitution.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/The-Line-item-Veto.htm
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Still though, the fact that Clinton was an outspoken advocate for the CFMA means he is quite a bit more culpable than someone who was forced to vote for it as part of the budget.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)he signed both.
However, I do not blame HRC for what her husband did.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)On the one hand, it seems a particularly vicious form of sexism to view HRC through her husband's actions. On the other hand, she has chosen the positive aspects of his presidency as a reason to support her in this bid.
It seems unfair to not bring up the negative aspects while one can campaign on the positive. But again, it's sexist to view her through his presidency at all.
So I don't know. 
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/times-change-heres-hillary-clinton-in-1994-talking-up-tough#.yo9GBq6d8
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)As for Sanders' take on the crime bill, please see posts #55 and #63, thanks.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)According to the (NOT particularly pro-Sanders) article at
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-wall-street_5617f634e4b0dbb8000e5a58
The version Sanders voted for passed the House 377 to 4 in October of 2000. It did not include the really bad provisions. Those were later added by Phil Gramm in coordination with the Clinton administration. The revised version was made part of a "must pass" bill (the kind of bill that must be passed to avoid shutting down the government).
...
In October 2000, the bill passed the House by a vote of 377 to 4 (51 members didn't vote), and then sat on the shelf for weeks.
But in December, Gramm -- after coordinating with top Clinton administration officials -- added much harder-edged deregulatory language to the bill, then attached the entire package to a must-pass 11,000-page bill funding the entire federal government. After Gramm's workshopping, the legislation included new language saying the federal government "shall not exercise regulatory authority with respect to, a covered swap agreement offered, entered into, or provided by a bank." That ended all government oversight of derivatives purchased or traded by banks. He also created the so-called "Enron Loophole," which barred federal oversight of energy trading on electronic platforms.
This was an era in which voting against funding the federal government was considered a major governance faux pas. The bill sailed through both chambers of Congress
...
Sanders has since hammered the CFMA, its architects and specific provisions in Senate hearings and on the Senate floor. He helped push through legislation to close the Enron loophole in 2008.
So ironically, Hillary is going after Bernie for a vote on something that Bill Clinton negotiated and, as President, signed into law. "Bernie, you have a lot of nerve calling me out for Wall Street ties after you helped wreck the economy by voting for my husband's bill!"
jeff47
(26,549 posts)'Cause that is what you are advocating here, since VAWA was in the same bill.
Why should Sanders have voted against the Assault Weapons Ban? Why are you advocating more assault weapons on our streets, since the AWB was in the same bill.
You know, it's really too bad Hillary Clinton never held a legislative position where she could have introduced legislation to turn that apology into something real.
Oh well.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You get a pass, you get a pass, you get a pass!!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)He voted for the bill because of the other parts of the bill. And he said so at the time.
Both Clintons advocated for the tougher sentences at the time. They later claimed it was a mistake, but have made no effort towards fixing that mistake.
Voting yes is voting yes no matter what your mouth says. My mom used to tell me it hurt her worse than me when she beat me. Words.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)When you make a mistake that hurts someone, what do you do?
Do you only say you are sorry? Or do you try to fix anything you can fix? I'd like to think most people would do what they can to fix what they can.
Why don't the Clintons?
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)THINGS done.
We want progressive goals accomplished, not "THINGS done."
When Bill Clinton gutted the safety net for the most vulnerable Americans on welfare, he got THINGS done.
When Bill Clinton set back the fight for an equal right to marriage by signing DOMA, he got THINGS done.
When Bill Clinton took away judicial discretion by requiring stiff sentences for minor drug possession, he got THINGS done.
When Bill Clinton crippled labor by passing NAFTA, he got THINGS done.
When Bill Clinton boosted his support with Southern whites by shaming Sista Souljah and Joycelyn Elders, he got THINGS done.
When Bill Clinton deregulated Wall Street, he got THINGS done.
No one doubts that Hillary Clinton will get THINGS done; we just doubt that they will be progressive things.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)You should make this an op.
senz
(11,945 posts)Thanks for a great OP, cali!
jalan48
(13,863 posts)
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Whatever this is supposed to accomplish... it's not working. Bernie will not be the nominee.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)that's kind of a creepy prediction
TBF
(32,056 posts)And good luck in the general.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)If these images disturbs you, why are you voting for someone who's been taking money from the same arms industry what has profited from these wars?
Kind regards
A veteran of Bosnia 1993
polly7
(20,582 posts)
Moostache
(9,895 posts)“Bernie’s attractiveness as a candidate relies on the premise of purity — a political value as ancient as politics itself,” wrote The New Yorker’s Alexandra Schwartz, dismissing her youthful cohort for their naivete before knocking them for not even being very cool young people to begin with. “When his campaign tweets that it’s ‘high time we stopped bailing out Wall Street and started repairing Main Street,’ you have to wonder why his youngest supporters, so attuned to staleness in all things cultural, are letting him get away with political rhetoric that would have seemed old even in 2012.”
Bernie's attractiveness as a candidate is NOT something that is defined by a writer's opinion of what is or is not anachronistic. The problem with Hillary Clinton is not her gender, it is her associations and stated beliefs that do NOT align with the needs of the vast majority of Americans.
She is tainted by the associations that she and Bill willingly chased after his presidency. She is tainted by her voting record as a carpet-bagging Senator from New York. She is further tainted by the ugliness of her 2008 campaign and now what is becoming a carbon-copy nasty 2016 version.
The reasons to dislike her are legion and sadly they detract from the reasons to like her to produce a net negative candidacy.
Attacking Bernie Sanders supporters does not make Hillary any less of a general election liability. It only ensures that she is now still what she was in 2008 during the primaries - 100% willing to harm the party and sacrifice the middle class if it means she gets the big tiara in the end.
I support Bernie Sanders because of Hillary Clinton and her back-stabbing, sell the rest of us down the river cohort....NOT because of anything else.
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)she never stood up for women employees, making poverty wages with no benefits.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)like the twelve year old shot dead in the street. All of them are "predators" dontcha know?
MisterP
(23,730 posts)and yet women are only allowed to play the politics game precisely because of generations of women who refused to ...
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)Thanks for the thread, cali.
Utopian Leftist
(534 posts)I don't choose to live in a country where the leftist party is so compromised that it can't honestly be called 'leftist' anymore. Bernie's success will depend on whether or not the American people are honest enough to recognize him as a true champion of their own declared liberalism.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)now's the time to be selective with one's resume.