Wow, Bill Clinton is really starting to look old! Like elderly old...

[ViseGrip]

I just caught him on TV at a couple of events. He looks elderly....wow, I was stunned. He looks so much older than he is. Wow, just shocked.

[merrily]

1. IMO, he's starting to look frail and not healthy.

It isn't so much about his age for me.

[MissDeeds]

23. He looks frail, weak

and older than he is. I'm not a fan, but I hope the campaign isn't too much for him.

[6chars]

55. he lost a lot of weight on purpose

we think of him as this big kind of chubby guy. after his heart attack he went on a seriously healthy diet and seems to be sticking to it. looks frail compared to his earlier self, but probably really healthier.

[merrily]

58. He lost that weight years ago, right after his attack. I've seen him many times since.

"Frail" is different from "thin."

[azmom]

2. Old and sick.

He does not look well at all.

[CorporatistNation]

3. Bill Has Significant Cardiac Disese ... Poor Heart Function Will Make You Look Old REAL FAST!

That is it in a nutshell!

[ViseGrip]

5. Yes, it all makes sense. So frail looking. Must be the heart disease.

Not attractive at all anymore. So sad....just looks so elderly/old/frail.

[Tess49]

22. Have you looked at Bernie lately? No spring chicken. Just saying ....

[XemaSab]

28. Bernie looks old but healthy

[enid602]

33. Bernie

Bernie looks and sounds like he's been suffering from the flu. Almost no voice left. He's really lost energy in the last few days.

[SamKnause]

65. Bernie's voice is hoarse.

It happens when people campaign, give speeches, do forums,

and participate in debates.

I see no sign that he has lost any of his passion or energy.

FEEL THE BERN

[snagglepuss]

12. Its hard to believe his doctors okayed his involvement as its so stressful.

I think he's doing it because the both are truly power hungry. She doesnt seem to give a damn that he's on his last legs. IF she did give a damn about him, they'd be dipping their toes in the ocean somewhere warm. Basically she needs to win this race more than she needs him.

[840high]

27. yep

[PonyUp]

68. Maybe Hillary's doctor gave him a 'Fit to serve' note. n/t

[MADem]

4. He was a chubby guy most of his life. Then he got heart disease and had a bypass.

Then he went on a vegetarian diet (with a few cheats) and an exercise program.

When you've been chunky all your life, and you lose weight, your skin hangs a bit. It doeesn't snap back.

Actually, he's probably healthier, and has more stamina, than he did when he was in the thick of the heart disease.

He'll be seventy this year, so he is punching up against the "elderly" label. I think he looks his age. Time marches on!

[ViseGrip]

6. I know many 69 yr olds who don't look as old as him. He looks older than his years to me.

[MADem]

15. Well, he's no Patrick Stewart or Raquel Welch (they're in the septuagenarian club) but their

professions require the odd nip/tuck. I think he looks like himself:



He could probably gussy himself up with a few fillers and botox and so forth, (given his heart condition a full facelift would probably not be a good idea) but I think people prefer him with an expressive face, wrinkles and all.

I think John Kerry erred when he had all that work done--it is finally starting to settle in, but it took years.

As long as he can do five miles on the treadmill, and has the stamina for a busy day, I say leave him be. It's so rare to see people who haven't been chopped, tugged and plumped in public life. Might as well let it all hang out!

[restorefreedom]

83. many veggies/vegans are thought to be ill when they are not

they typically carry much less body mass than onmivores, and some are quite lean. plus, he used to be heavy, as you mentioned. add in older age, and the wrinkles are popping all over the place.

al sharpton also lost a lot of weight on a veggie diet. in the right light (or wrong), he could be described as looking gaunt. be he says he is quite healthy.

[thereismore]

106. I think the gaunt look of raw food vegans (I don't mean Bill, obviously) really is a sign of

bad health. Most women on raw food diet even lose their period as the body must economize its functions to make sure they survive. It is a starvation diet.

[restorefreedom]

122. i only do mostly raw during summer

and even then, i can't do completely raw. i just tend not to be drawn to lasagna and such in hot weather. but everyone has to do what works for them. i think any lifestyle choice (including excessive training) that causes a woman of childbearing age to lose her period for any length of time would be a concern.

[thereismore]

123. Agreed. Diet is very individual. nt

[CoffeeCat]

7. If you look at him during Hillary's "victory" speech in Iowa

he looks the oldest I've ever seen him.

I think this campaign is really wearing on him. I think it's taking a toll physically as well as psychologically.

It's sad to see.

http://www.politico.com/video/2016/02/hillary-clintons-full-iowa-caucuses-speech-041761

There's just something very, very off about this speech too. But that's another thread for another time, I suppose. There's a backstory here, I guarantee it.

[ViseGrip]

8. interesting....

[840high]

29. ty

[artislife]

32. I just spent 5 minutes looking at photos of him trying to see why

One, he probably isn't wearing make up--the candidates all do for tv and lighting and thus his face is pretty red. He also has pure white hair and we remember him as a sandy blond or grey haired man and I think his face has lost a lot of fat that rounded it out more.

But the gap mouth and the far away look in his eyes is something new, too. Or maybe not. I can't say that I have seen him live responding to life in the background. He has lost his twinkle.


Dang, I just looked up how old he is --69. I have downsized a lot of the elderly and he looks ten years older than he should.

I am not hating on him, I just am looking at him in terms of aging. We can talk about Obama getting grey and older in these last 8 years, surely we can talk about Bill.

[CTyankee]

85. that open mouth worries me most...

my husband is six years older than Bill and he doesn't look all that old comparatively. He is losing his hearing and in denial about it, tho...

[CoffeeCat]

87. Well, when you notice both of their reactions and behaviors

in this video. Both Hillary and Bill are both "off."

Bill looks completely gobsmacked. Traumatized. I don't think I've ever seen him look like that. I think his disposition has more to do with what happened prior to them taking the stage--as opposed to age issues.

Hillary, on the other hand, looks like she wants to kill someone. She looks completely steeled--like there are tons of other emotions underneath that she is covering. So many people have remarked that this speech was disturbing. If you look at her current speeches, she doesn't look or behave like she did during this Iowa speech.

I'm convinced that major stuff went down behind closed doors that night in Iowa.

Possibly, it's that they saw their early lead slowly erode away to a .2, razor-thin victory. I'm sure that was disappointing. However, I really wonder if some hanky pinky didn't occur. We all know that Iowa's political apparatus is in the tank for Clinton. It's possible that they rigged it for her. The returns were coming in steadily and slowly--with the gap narrowing between the two candidates. Then, it stopped at the end. Just stopped. Then, the numbers began climbing for Clinton. It was odd. It's possible that this was a real .2 win. However, it just looks and feels funny. Especially when Andy "license plate" McGuire refused to allow any examination of the final results. She only capitulated after the Des Moines Register issued a scathing editorial, demanding that known errors be corrected.

5 errors were corrected. I have no idea if the Iowa Democratic Party is working to fix more. Nothing like this has ever happened in Iowa. It's a heartbreaker for sure.

[artislife]

93. The standstill of returns was strange and long

And I am on the West Coast, wondering if the Iowans were still trying to caucus at some ungodly hour in the morning.

He did look bewildered. I find her steely at the best of times so I cannot judge. The one thing I can add, is that they looked mismatched as a couple. Her make up was pretty good.

[ViseGrip]

9. kick!

[onehandle]

11. Are you kicking your own post for ageism or kicking the idea of a Clinton passing away?

Pathetic primary post, bro.

[rhett o rick]

17. Of course you wouldn't like to hear anything bad about the royal American Aristocratic family.

The are super wealthy and represent all that is bad. They represent the culture that puts profits above human lives. But some worship them as gods and don't care what they stand for.

[onehandle]

19. Cool story, bro. nt

[Dem2]

97. Bitter

[MADem]

18. You know if we mentioned how old and hunched a certain other gentleman in the news looked,

the HIDE patrol would be out in force! AGEISM!!! HOW DARRRRE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



It's not even subtle!

[gyroscope]

25. Difference is Bernie looks healthy and energetic, Bill does not

It's not the age.

[azmom]

37. It's not the age. He just looks ill.

He should be at home resting.

[ViseGrip]

100. He is very ill, he has heart disease. I heard him speak. To continue living, no meat or dairy. Ever.

[ViseGrip]

103. The physical difference between Bill and Bernie is stunning, and Bernie's older!

Bernie got a good bill of health. Bill does not. That is why I did the post. I was shocked when I saw not just how old he looked, but how sick he looks. He has heart disease. I heard him speak. He told us all that he was told, if he wanted another ten years, he could never eat meat or dairy again. He got his ten years....he's got a bad heart, and it's really starting to show. It's sad. I was stunned to see him lately.

[azmom]

121. I was stunned too. He looks so much older

Than Hillary too.

[MADem]

46. I dunno. I think Bill looks about ten years younger than "the Bern."

At least.

That's my POV, anyway.

[Cha]

38. Results of your Jury, MADem.. I was Juror#2

You know if we mentioned how old and hunched a certain other gentleman in the news looked,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1178192

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Meta bullshit

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 8, 2016, 07:39 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Prophetic.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: the Bill Clinton looking old is Meta? Well, alert the OP as abusing SOP, then.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sounds true to me. That's exactly what would have happened.

[MADem]

45. Wowie! Thanks, Cha! AND Thanks for that, jury! Well, five of you, anyway!!

Good grief-- is there only ONE "certain gentleman in the news?" Hell, I coulda meant THIS GUY!!! LOL!!!

Fair warning--that's one of those stupid satire sites....


But hey--there's Rupert Murdoch...he just got engaged!!!!

I should like to point out to the alerter that "META BULLSHIT" is the province of HOSTS, not juries. META sanctions are doled out by hosts who shut down the threads--if you really wanted to stop this thread from progressing, you should have "meta" alerted on the thread starting post and asked the host to shut this party down. The alerter would do well to read the TOS, community standards, etc. before punching the button again. Otherwise, it'll look a bit ... mean-spirited.

[Cha]

49. You're welcome. And, Exactly. Why didn't they think of that?

I should like to point out to the alerter that "META BULLSHIT" is the province of HOSTS, not juries. META sanctions are doled out by hosts who shut down the threads--if you really wanted to stop this thread from progressing, you should have "meta" alerted on the thread starting post and asked the host to shut this party down. The alerter would do well to read the TOS, community standards, etc. before punching the button again. Otherwise, it'll look a bit ... mean-spirited.

[quickesst]

82. What you say is so obvious...

... and pretty damn sad.

[one_voice]

13. Yes. Kick a thread discussing how old and elderly

Bill Clinton looks. There's some real substance for you.

edit: to add it was at the top when I commented. So I didn't 're-kick' up again.

[MADem]

26. It's a very odd thing for anyone to do. But hey, if that's how we're going to play it....

Let's put up pics of other old people, then, if that's the "theme" here....






There's no crime in looking "old" is there?

I think a lot of us are breaking the law if that's the case....



Plenty of "old and frail looking" to go around, I'd say!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

30. Some get it from working hard and worring about Hillary being president

Some get it from getting blow jobs from employees and getting caught by you wife

[MADem]

39. Aren't you childishly offensive! nt

[SoLeftIAmRight]

86. childishly offensive

is having sex with an employee - bad judgement

if you do not believe that - your judgement might be clouded

[MADem]

91. That's childishly abusive. Why you'd think of that is your issue. nt

[SoLeftIAmRight]

92. bill made bad decisions

I do not listen to him

some do

[oasis]

40. Got any data on that?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

88. you need data on what this behavior does to a relationship?

really?

I will look into it if you really want me too.

[one_voice]

48. And this comment right here is exactly...

the difference between talking about Bill looking old and Obama looking older as someone compared the conversations up-thread.

It had nothing to do with Bill looking old. It was a way to get shots like this in.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

89. no - it is a question of judgement

do you think he used good judgement?

[one_voice]

95. This is a thread about how..

old & elderly Bill is looking.

So no, I don't think this:

SoLeftIAmRight (2,341 posts)
30. Some get it from working hard and worring about Hillary being president

Some get it from getting blow jobs from employees and getting caught by you wife

Has a damn thing to do with the content of the OP. And wouldn't be relevant in a conversation discussing how much he and Obama have aged.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

96. The effects of extramarital affairs can run deep - take a look

http://www.bing.com/search?q=effects+of+extramarital+affairs&qs=RI&pq=extramarital+affairs+effec&sk=RI1&sc=2-26&sp=2&cvid=61A1BC84267549B6970C2B401FE87CE6&FORM=QBLH

[onehandle]

10. Cool story, bro. nt

[senz]

16. Cool comment, bro.

[CoffeeCat]

41. Eye roll, perfect!

Aren't they too clever by half?

Working hard to make that "bro" meme stick!

I'm going to start counting the times that I have been drive-by bro'd!

[senz]

47. lol, thank you!

That meme is so disgusting; it's like they think they have an exclusive patent on femaleness. But it was great to see the reply was from a fellow warm-and-fuzzy Bernie supporter!

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Don't bro me 'less you know me

[Hydra]

14. He looks tired

Being a running boy for the 1% is harder work than they tell you. They'll run them both into the ground before this is over, but at least they know Chelsea and kids will be set.

[onehandle]

21. Kick for exposure of ageism or giddyness over the bad health of a former Democratic President.

Which is it?

Or is it both?

[earthside]

24. Nobody is "giddy".

People age differently for all kinds of reasons.

Pres. Clinton does look frail and his voice is certainly more reedy now.

I worry about him ... I don't want him to die at only 69 years old.

It is not ageism to discuss a public person's age.

Goodness, Sen. Sanders is 74 years old, he may look his age, but he is nowhere near as frail as Pres. Clinton appears recently.

People age differently ... that's all.

[MADem]

31. I think he's looking kind of frail, too.

[JonLeibowitz]

53. I think he looks fabulous and in excellent health. Far healthier than Bill. n/t

[MADem]

59. Why, thanks for that report, Doctor! When will you be posting their respective physicals?

[JonLeibowitz]

63. It has been done already, after the rodent creature Brock started a vicious smear.

I am sure you can find the relevant documentation.

My Doctorate is still in the works though, thanks for asking!

[Logical]

43. You whine a lot! Nt

[MFM008]

34. i hate to say it

all of ours are all to damn old. Why dont we have a young, vibrant person running you can get excited about instead of wondering if they will make it through the first term? Its like were picking a pope or something. Oh I miss John F Kennedy. Crap.

[one_voice]

36. We did have a young, vibrant..

person running. With good ideas. I was excited about him. Sadly his campaign is no more.

Now we're talking about how old and frail Bill Clinton looks.

I get what you're saying. I said the same thing at the very beginning. We need a deeper bench.

[MADem]

42. JFK was on painkillers, amphetamines, B-12 shots, steroids, and was sick as a dog.

He "looked" vibrant and youthful, but he wasn't. That Addison's took a toll on him.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/05/science/sci-jfk-addisons5

Hard though it is to believe these days -- when a celebrity's smallest sneeze is analyzed -- Kennedy's family and advisors were able to keep his medical history virtually secret. Kennedy, at 43 the youngest president ever elected, was portrayed as healthy and vibrant. In reality, he suffered various problems controlled by a daily regimen of steroids and other drugs.

Addison's disease is characterized by the withering of the adrenal glands, which produce adrenaline and other hormones. Symptoms include fatigue, dizziness, muscle weakness, weight loss, difficulty standing up, nausea, sweating, and changes in mood and personality. Tuberculosis accounts for about 20% of cases; the rest are autoimmune in origin....Kennedy collapsed twice because of the disease: once at the end of a parade during an election campaign and once on a congressional visit to Britain.

Kennedy was diagnosed with Addison's in the 1940s. In 1955 he was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, an insufficient output of thyroid hormones. Symptoms can include many of those associated with Addison's, as well as paleness, intolerance to cold, depression and a low heart rate.

[Codeine]

44. We had one. Not many got excited about him.

Sad, because he is pretty fantastic, but I think he's going to be back.

[R B Garr]

35. Put it in perspective, what if Bill had waited 'til 74 to

run for President. He would still be waiting 5 years since hes only 69!

Makes you wonder why Bernie waited so long. Hmmm. He could have started this decades ago, like Bill and Obama did!

[Eric J in MN]

50. Bernie Sanders was never a governor and wasn't a US Senator until 2007

...so he didn't have a traditional job for seeking the presidency until recently.

[R B Garr]

75. No excuse. He's been in politics his whole life.

You make it sound like Bill Clinton had nothing to do with overcoming the obstacles to running for higher office. He had the will to do what was necessary to get himself there; whereas, Bernie never bothered. Why did Bernie never bother. That's the real question.

[Eric J in MN]

113. Bernie Sanders ran for governor and US Senator in the 1970s but wasn't elected then. NT

NT

[R B Garr]

114. So what. LOL, the 70's.

Bill Clinton had baggage that he managed to overcome. Bernie didn't bother. At least until now...at 74 after others have broken down barriers for him.

Hardly a "revolution".

[FrenchieCat]

52. The presidency tends to age you....

pretty quickly!

[moriah]

66. No doubt! nt

[R B Garr]

76. Yes, it does. The before/after pictures always amaze me.

Bernie would be 80 or 81 after a first term.

[Blue_In_AK]

51. Bill's only a month and a half older than me,

but he looks like he's 80. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[moriah]

54. I hate to say it, but as much as I loved this ad:

I was very disturbed that they had to pretty much subtitle the entire ad. He's still charismatic... but I worry about him.

[MADem]

60. They subtitled the ad because he still talks "Little Rock." He's got a strong accent, and

all those New Englanders who think their accents are "normalspeak" might have trouble understanding him.

I think he looks great. He's got a wee polyp on a vocal chord, is all--he probably doesn't want to get knocked out with that Michael Jackson drug and end up dead like poor Joan Rivers (who also had a polyp on her vocal chord). That kind of stuff is dodgy on a good day, worse when you have had heart disease.

[moriah]

64. Thanks for clarifying on the polyp...

Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2016, 04:35 AM - Edit history (1)

That explains the difference in his voice for me (born and raised in Little Rock, and remember HIPPY). I understood him fine, but there was a difference and it did make me worry a little. It wasn't his looks, it was the change in his voice from just four years ago even...

[rtw]

110. I think the subtitles may have more to do with assisting the hearing impaired. Nt

[MADem]

111. That, too. nt

[gwheezie]

56. I looked in the mirror

And thought who the hell is that old woman? Some of us age better than others.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

69. Hey. Type louder and slower. My ears ain't what they used to be.

And git off my lawn!

[gwheezie]

70. Hahaha

The young guys I work with gave me my street name, they call me gramma wheezie. No kidding, when one of my patients comes back in, they yell hey gramma wheezie, when they gonna make you retire? I tell them, they won't let me stop working til you stop using.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

72. Great response!

[Beacool]

57. The voting has just started and I'm already beyond sick of this place.

It seems that the mere act of the Clintons breathing is a problem for some of you.

[totodeinhere]

112. I don't want them to stop breathing but they both need to retire.

Enjoy the years they have left and enjoy their grandchild and the one on the way.

[Prism]

61. He lost significant weight late in life

It lends itself to a perceived rapid aging due to skin not having much elasticity at that point, but he's probably healthier than he's been in awhile.

I'm a Sanders guy, but I don't perceive anything particularly notable about Bill's health.

[Karma13612]

73. Yea, I think it was thru a change in diet and being

More active.

Heard an interview a while ago.

[DesertFlower]

62. he didn't age well.

i saw fred goldman on the local news tonight. remember him -- ron goldman's dad -- OJs other victim.

anyway he looks great. did not age at all in 21 years.

[senz]

67. There is nothing wrong with aging or noticing that someone has aged.

In fact, there's nothing wrong with age itself. If you don't die young, you get old. It is not shameful, it is not ugly, and it is not embarrassing.

Bernie looks like an old man, especially in his face, neck, and upper thoracic spine. He has a bald spot on the back of his head. His hair is white, often messy. He is not by any stretch of the imagination a "pretty boy," and probably never was.

So how do millions of Bernie supporters feel about that? We don't care.

Why don't we care? Because what we love about this man is who he is on the inside.

Hundreds of thousands of smooth skinned, straight backed, bright-eyed millennials adore this hunched, saggy-necked old man, too. They like what's inside.

What about Bernie? Does he care about looking old? Doesn't seem to.

So posting unflattering photos of Bernie isn't going to bother us (ahem).

I wish more Clinton supporters could feel the same way about their candidate and also her husband. I wish they put less emphasis on "oh doesn't she look pretty?" and more on "what a fine human being she is, what a true stateswoman, compassionate human being, natural leader, etc."

I wish they were less enamored of a physical image and more interested in the person herself.

[Recursion]

71. Heart surgery does that to you

He's looked old since the last one.

[Vattel]

74. What is the relevance of this supposed to be? I see none. You should self-delete.

[bettyellen]

101. It's embarrassing that so many people on this thread are pretending they don't hate him.

They really are shameless. And you're right, it is pointless.

[get the red out]

77. Heart disease takes a toll

I watched it happen with my Dad.

[RiverLover]

79. I was shocked too. He does look elderly, at 69.

It seems like there's something wrong. My Dad has had major heart surgeries & he didn't look elderly at that age. Not even close.

But then, he was never President for 8 years.

[MBS]

80. I was really struck by how frail he looked, too. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

81. I think he looks unhealthy. His palor is not good and he looks frail and tired.

I hope he's not having heart issues again.

[Vinca]

105. I'm risking the wrath the vegetarians, but the guy looks like he needs to eat a steak.

[in_cog_ni_to]

107. I think he's Vegan, but since he had heart bypass surgery, it's his heart that worries me more.

I'll assume he eats a well balanced meal...a lot of kale and other protein rich foods since they probably have a chef.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[Vinca]

109. I know. I'm just being snarky.

[Odin2005]

84. He sounds elderly, too.

His voice is getting weaker.

[asuhornets]

90. under the bus he goes...n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

102. He doesn't go 'under the bus' for his age.

He went 'under the bus' a long time ago, for NAFTA, for repealing Glass-Steagal, for creating the disastrous school to prison pipeline for young black men.

[asuhornets]

104. No he's under the bus

because he is defending his wife

[asuhornets]

94. Well, Bernie is not a spring chicken...n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

99. Yes, speaking of "elderly"... nt

[ViseGrip]

115. Bill looks 'frail', Bernie does not.

[Bobbie Jo]

119. Your opinion.

Bernie looks older than he is, in my opinion.

Elderly is a good description.

[Dem2]

98. Yes, shocking

this is shocking.

[MrTriumph]

108. The ghosts of his past misbehavior are coming alive.

Have you seen the recent news stories about Monica, Paula, Kathleen, etc. They are all back in the news. At least one is going to campaign against them. If you were in Bill's shoes, how would you feel? Angry? Disgusted? Alarmed?

[George II]

116. So? What's your point? Is Bill Clinton running for President?

[NCTraveler]

117. Deep. Really really deep.

This must be one of those issues I keep hearing Sanders supporters sticking to. Must be why they are so far past me intellectually. I can't for the life of me figure out the point here. I doubt I could even make it in your shallow end. Very deep.

[MineralMan]

118. And So? Is Bill Clinton Running for Something?

How on Earth does this have anything to do with the Presidential primary elections?

Are you pleased that he seems to have aged prematurely? Does that mean anything for Hillary Clinton's campaign?

The man's a year younger than I am. He's had serious heart problems, like many men his age. Is he less energetic than he was in the 1990s? Not surprising, really.

But, how does this matter? What are we supposed to learn from your "revelation?"

[DesertRat]

120. He looks fine to me

Taken today in NH

[sheshe2]

125. Ha!

Great picture DesertRat, thanks for posting.

[George II]

124. Why don't you post a picture of yourself and your age, we'll compare notes.