Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Nanjeanne

(5,439 posts)
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 04:56 PM Feb 2016

My Response to History Lesson For a Young Sanders Supporter

I am posting this in response to a "history lesson" from Susan Bordo on Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-bordo-/history-lesson-for-a-youn_b_9168076.html. My response reflects things said in this blog. I guess I'm just fed-up with this drum beat.

I am "over 65" woman. I do not feeling faceless. I don't have to clench my fists when Sanders is praised.

I am not supporting him because he is "authentic". I am supporting him because he is consistent in his values, his policy plans are the ones that I support and he speaks to me about what I think is important for the future of our country. He walks the walk and that makes him "authentic".

He is not the gatekeeper of progressivism. I AM. I stand at the gate of my own decision on who and what is progressive.

I am not voting for Sanders because he is a "charismatic male politico" telling women what issues are and aren't "progressive". I cannot think of a more condescending thing to say about someone. It is as offensive to read that statement to me, a 66 year old woman, as I imagine it would be to a 24 year old.

I don't need to be lectured about women's rights. I was long a member, a protestor, and someone who marched for women's rights, civil rights, LGBT rights. I can't speak to those who boo'ed Hillary but if this person is talking about the boos she received during the debate - they came because of her "artful smears" comment. And that comment struck a chord with people in the audience. What that has to do with feminism I have no idea.

I was born in 1950. Yes the 60s were intoxicating. You know why? Because we felt we had the power to change things. And you know what - many of us did. We marched for an end to the Vietnam War. And we were empowered. Some of us took part in demonstrations after Stonewall riots. And you know what - we made a difference. We marched on Washington and our voices were heard. We converged on Washington to protest the Kent State shootings and President Richard Nixon's incursion into Cambodia and our voices were heard. We marched for Equal Rights for Women and our voices were heard. Perhaps the younger generation want to participate the way we did - and have their voices heard too?

I am not supporting Bernie because I'm charmed by his scruffy white hair. That's an incredibly patronizing thing to say and I imagine it is to a 24 year old as well. Am I charmed by his unmodulated passion? Not charmed. But excited by. Inspired by. I have a feeling 24 year olds might be as well.

I do not mistake Hillary's caution as a sign of "inauthenticity". I take her ever-changing stances on policies as a sign of inauthenticity. I don't label her "strident" and "shrill" as a way to demean her because she is a woman. Is Bernie being called "strident" and "shrill" as a way to demean him as a man?

Please do understand that 66 year old Bernie supporters and 24 year old Bernie supporters can tell the difference between a "clear message" and the complexity of governing. Please don't tell us that we shouldn't vote for Hillary JUST because she is a woman and then write a long discourse pretty much telling me that I should vote for her because she is a woman.

Please do not talk down to me - as a 66 year old woman or a 24 year old woman -- and imply that I can't understand just how complex our political system is. I think I'm fully capable of analyzing the candidates' policy positions, their histories, their personalities and making up my own mind on who and why I will support Bernie Sanders.

And, you know what? I think the 24 year olds can too.

99 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
My Response to History Lesson For a Young Sanders Supporter (Original Post) Nanjeanne Feb 2016 OP
This says it all. Another baby boomer woman for Sanders farleftlib Feb 2016 #1
+1 n/t LittleGirl Feb 2016 #76
Very well said, Nanjeanne! beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #2
Excellent response. Cassiopeia Feb 2016 #3
Kudos! Fantastic, eloquent op cali Feb 2016 #4
Hillarians apparently think women respond positively to being guilt-tripped and shamed. 99th_Monkey Feb 2016 #5
No, I'm quite happy with that person's performance. They should stay. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2016 #12
yep,Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright Rebuke Young Women Backing Bernie Sanders Go Vols Feb 2016 #13
Thanks for the NYTimes link, and the info. nt 99th_Monkey Feb 2016 #23
Bravo! Nightjock Feb 2016 #6
You tell it! nt retrowire Feb 2016 #7
KnR! nt m-lekktor Feb 2016 #8
I'll split the difference at nearly 42... Kittycat Feb 2016 #9
This old geezer will, too. 840high Feb 2016 #61
This 74 year old geezer will be right with you as well. WHEN CRABS ROAR Feb 2016 #62
I'm 69 and agree with everything you wrote here. Blue_In_AK Feb 2016 #10
Well said! I'm right behind you age wise and ICAM! CharlotteVale Feb 2016 #11
Love it! cui bono Feb 2016 #14
K & R! TIME TO PANIC Feb 2016 #15
I'm 54 this Friday Sophiegirl Feb 2016 #16
Happy birthday! Glamrock Feb 2016 #42
Thank you! Sophiegirl Feb 2016 #55
Hear, hear!!!!! ljm2002 Feb 2016 #17
I'm out of the demographic too and so are my friends. trillion Feb 2016 #18
Well said! Bubzer Feb 2016 #19
Bravo Nanjeanne! SoapBox Feb 2016 #20
Well said! ybbor Feb 2016 #21
hey howdy! ellennelle Feb 2016 #22
Exceptional clarity of conviction-- slumcamper Feb 2016 #24
WOO HOO Lazy Daisy Feb 2016 #25
For THAT you get a heart. :>)) pangaia Feb 2016 #26
+ 1000000000000 !!!!!!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #32
" Their immune to your consultations, their quite aware of what their going through " David Bowie orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #27
Ch ch ch changes, time to face the strain... My favorite Bowie song! Dustlawyer Feb 2016 #43
I put that verse as an op yesterday SwampG8r Feb 2016 #83
I didn't see it, and as much as I'm asked to judge I would of given it a K&R Leave it !!!!! orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #99
Exactly. jwirr Feb 2016 #28
K&R jonno99 Feb 2016 #29
Yes! They are patronizing zentrum Feb 2016 #30
Beaut! :) MerryBlooms Feb 2016 #31
Excellent response! gelatinous cube Feb 2016 #33
Not just women! Fred75 Feb 2016 #34
Bang on! leftupnorth Feb 2016 #35
Recommended. H2O Man Feb 2016 #36
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Feb 2016 #37
Bravo!! Preach it, sister! Duppers Feb 2016 #38
THANK YOU for an excellent response to that condescending entreaty to vote for Hillary because FailureToCommunicate Feb 2016 #39
Thank you Nanjeanne noretreatnosurrender Feb 2016 #40
Great post nyabingi Feb 2016 #41
You speak for so many of us in this post. EmperorHasNoClothes Feb 2016 #44
I'm the same age as you. I'm voting for Hillary. Paladin Feb 2016 #45
That's great. It's why we have primaries! nt Nanjeanne Feb 2016 #48
k&R stage left Feb 2016 #46
This 68 year old woman is right there with you, Nanjeanne. mountain grammy Feb 2016 #47
A whole 'Nuther Way Marty McGraw Feb 2016 #49
Yet another woman here who is over 65 and supports Bernie. SheilaT Feb 2016 #50
You are going to disregard all the onepercenterwomansplaining? merrily Feb 2016 #51
Very well said, this 56 year old southern woman agrees ms liberty Feb 2016 #52
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Fantastic! Enthusiast Feb 2016 #53
Great response! BigMin28 Feb 2016 #54
another K&R from a 50 y.o. woman dana_b Feb 2016 #56
K&R valerief Feb 2016 #57
I'm old,I love Bernie! wendylaroux Feb 2016 #58
Perfect Rebuttal !!! Martin Eden Feb 2016 #59
A big K&R! beac Feb 2016 #60
So well said! passiveporcupine Feb 2016 #63
Happy to be the 200th recommend Oilwellian Feb 2016 #64
That was wonderful! ozone_man Feb 2016 #65
Kick! beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #66
Kick & Rec Marty McGraw Feb 2016 #67
Wow. KnR. n/t Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #68
Yup! Dem_in_Nebr. Feb 2016 #69
This is wonderful Nanjeanne. May I borrow it? SpookyCat Feb 2016 #70
If you want to, of course. Feel free to rewrite for yourself. Nanjeanne Feb 2016 #71
Thank you! I wanted to verify with you since I'll be building on your frame. SpookyCat Feb 2016 #73
Perfect response! kenfrequed Feb 2016 #72
Wonderful post. klook Feb 2016 #74
Female Baby Boomer 4 Bernie here! Dont call me Shirley Feb 2016 #75
Bravo! Applause, applause, applause! eggman67 Feb 2016 #77
K&R Paka Feb 2016 #78
This old lady Iwillnevergiveup Feb 2016 #79
Excellent post, Nanjeanne noiretextatique Feb 2016 #80
thank you, nanjeanne hopemountain Feb 2016 #81
Wonderfully well written, well thought out and totally on the money. I don't represent Bernie: he... marble falls Feb 2016 #82
.. disillusioned73 Feb 2016 #84
Very, very, very well said! paleotn Feb 2016 #85
HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Feb 2016 #86
Kudos - well said, well said NoMoreRepugs Feb 2016 #87
Thanks for those words of encouragement. No more status quo paternalism. eom Betty Karlson Feb 2016 #88
Another example of why I'm gleeful today. There's a chance we can be part of the process again. Gregorian Feb 2016 #89
"Intoxicating... We felt we had the power." YEAH, baby! Eleanors38 Feb 2016 #90
K&R! myrna minx Feb 2016 #91
Another woman baby-boomer for Sanders.... prairierose Feb 2016 #92
K&R closeupready Feb 2016 #93
lessee what else she's written on Huff--oh, it's nothing but Anne Boleyn? MisterP Feb 2016 #94
Yes - it's not important to listen to young women who aren't well known like Katy Perry Nanjeanne Feb 2016 #95
Lena Dunham! *shakes Nanjeanne by the collar* LENA DUNHAM MisterP Feb 2016 #96
HA. Well Sarah Silverman will kick Lena's ass!! Nanjeanne Feb 2016 #97
Isn't Huffingtonpost owned by some larger corporate interest? nolabels Feb 2016 #98
 

farleftlib

(2,125 posts)
1. This says it all. Another baby boomer woman for Sanders
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:00 PM
Feb 2016

who doesn't need a lecture, a history lesson or a threat of hell. I'm voting for Bernie because he is the best candidate to come along in decades!

Bra-vo, Nanjeanne.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
5. Hillarians apparently think women respond positively to being guilt-tripped and shamed.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:04 PM
Feb 2016

Might I suggest Camp Weathervane replace whoever's in charge of their 'outreach to women
voters' in their post NH "shakeup".

Go Vols

(5,902 posts)
13. yep,Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright Rebuke Young Women Backing Bernie Sanders
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:10 PM
Feb 2016
“Shame on Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright for implying that we as women should be voting for a candidate based solely on gender,” Zoe Trimboli, a 23-year-old from Vermont who supports Mr. Sanders and describes herself as a feminist, wrote on Facebook. “I can tell you that shaming me and essentially calling me misinformed and stupid is NOT the way to win my vote.”

With backlash growing, Ms. Steinem issued a retraction on Sunday morning.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/us/politics/gloria-steinem-madeleine-albright-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0

Kittycat

(10,493 posts)
9. I'll split the difference at nearly 42...
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:08 PM
Feb 2016

And stand right beside you holding hands in support of Bernie. Well stated.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
14. Love it!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:13 PM
Feb 2016

Particularly this:

I was born in 1950. Yes the 60s were intoxicating. You know why? Because we felt we had the power to change things. And you know what - many of us did. We marched for an end to the Vietnam War. And we were empowered. Some of us took part in demonstrations after Stonewall riots. And you know what - we made a difference. We marched on Washington and our voices were heard. We converged on Washington to protest the Kent State shootings and President Richard Nixon's incursion into Cambodia and our voices were heard. We marched for Equal Rights for Women and our voices were heard. Perhaps the younger generation want to participate the way we did - and have their voices heard too?


Because we're constantly being told not to dream of a better life, not to think we can achieve our dreams, not to even try to get what we want and NEED. That is bullshit. You don't get anything you don't ask for or demand.

.
 

trillion

(1,859 posts)
18. I'm out of the demographic too and so are my friends.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:15 PM
Feb 2016

Not all of us older women are voting for the .1 percent.

Good post!

Go Bernie!

ybbor

(1,605 posts)
21. Well said!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:20 PM
Feb 2016

I have found the injection of gender into this race offensive and disingenuous.

We need to vote for the candidate who will provide the greatest opportunity to improve our nation. I believe that to be Bernie. If he was a woman with the same ideas and conviction, aka Elizabeth Warren, then she would receive my vote.

 

Lazy Daisy

(928 posts)
25. WOO HOO
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:35 PM
Feb 2016

My thoughts too. I turned 50 last year and support Bernie.


Not the Carly Fiorina is great (god help us if she gets to even take a tour of the White House) but at least she's not going around saying vote for me because I'm a woman. For pete's sake Hillary, stop it. You're making us look weak.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
26. For THAT you get a heart. :>))
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:35 PM
Feb 2016

I am 72, male, and went through that same period.... So I know what of you speak.. although you were much more active than I was...
]
Bravo !!!


And WHO in the world is this Susan Bordo??

My goodness..

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
27. " Their immune to your consultations, their quite aware of what their going through " David Bowie
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:43 PM
Feb 2016

Gloria Steinman would of been better to say " She's my age ,so I have to vote for her " .

Dustlawyer

(10,518 posts)
43. Ch ch ch changes, time to face the strain... My favorite Bowie song!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:24 PM
Feb 2016

I can understand the desire of women to have a woman for President, I would like to see all barriers come down, true equality. But if I were a woman who seriously longed for a woman President, I would still want that woman to be a great President! It would be terrible for the first woman President to have a Presidency like that of "W." Would any woman want the first woman President to set a horrible precedent? Hillary is not the one! She, like almost all current Washington politicians, is beholden to wealthy Donors. To her credit, she has been better at the game than most of the men, but its still not much to brag about that she took in more bribe money (campaign contributions) than anyone else!

She is a notorious liar and so phony she even uses fake accents when addressing crowds from certain regions. How can you trust someone who is not even genuine in how she speaks?

SwampG8r

(10,287 posts)
83. I put that verse as an op yesterday
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 06:56 AM
Feb 2016

It was alerted on and locked
The jury took it that i was claiming hillary literally physically spat on young people as that waz the alerters claim
Im glad im not the only one who sees how deeply this verse applies

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
99. I didn't see it, and as much as I'm asked to judge I would of given it a K&R Leave it !!!!!
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 04:20 PM
Feb 2016

I've been here 12 yrs and have been Hid, Banned and Kicked out more in the last 6 months, than 12 yrs before which was a whopping 2 .

gelatinous cube

(50 posts)
33. Excellent response!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:53 PM
Feb 2016

You're right about the 24 years and younger group: we definitely know our political system, and we know why we support Bernie over Hillary.

Fred75

(22 posts)
34. Not just women!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:01 PM
Feb 2016

Many men are backing Bernie because he gets things done. He has a perfect record of supporting the middle and lower class citizens. Hilliary on the other hand is all over the map. She's against things one day, and something else the next day. She cannot be trusted.

Fred75

FailureToCommunicate

(14,331 posts)
39. THANK YOU for an excellent response to that condescending entreaty to vote for Hillary because
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:10 PM
Feb 2016

she is a woman ("But don't vote for her just because she is a woman&quot

I read it on that thread and came over here to rec your letter.

Thank you for putting into words so much of what my reaction was to that "history lesson"

nyabingi

(1,145 posts)
41. Great post
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:22 PM
Feb 2016

and you point out what many supporters of Bernie Sanders have noticed about Hillary and her supporters: They never make the case for her candidacy based on her record and policy ideas, only that Bernie's supporters are too stupid, young and naïve to know what's best for them. Her surrogates and supporters are insulting vast swaths of their potential voters and they can't seem to stop themselves.

I will be thrilled and celebrate just as hard as anyone when this country finally breaks the presidential glass ceiling, but I hope it is someone who's policies have greater appeal and inspiration across the generations (I'd love to see Elizabeth Warren or Barbara Lee run someday).

EmperorHasNoClothes

(4,797 posts)
44. You speak for so many of us in this post.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:33 PM
Feb 2016

I don't understand why so many of Hillary's supporters seem to think condescension and stereotyping are the way to win people over to her side.

Paladin

(28,801 posts)
45. I'm the same age as you. I'm voting for Hillary.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:34 PM
Feb 2016

I'd still like to compliment you on a well-crafted statement of why you're supporting Sanders. I am dismayed that things have gotten so venomous between Clinton and Bernie supporters, here at DU. Like you, I have fond memories of the 60's---it was a much better time in so many ways. Again, my compliments on your post.

mountain grammy

(27,305 posts)
47. This 68 year old woman is right there with you, Nanjeanne.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:36 PM
Feb 2016

Thank you. I just had this conversation with my husband.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
50. Yet another woman here who is over 65 and supports Bernie.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:46 PM
Feb 2016

The Hillary supporters constantly talk about how she's fought for women and children, and I see precious little proof of that. She was on record as trying to push through Universal Health Care at the beginning of Bill's first term, but after that failed, I can't recall her going out there trying again. And I'm not aware that she has a strong record pushing for that ever since. Oh, and she's recently said that single payer will "never, ever pass." How supportive is that?

And as Secretary of State she happily bombed women and children in other countries, and is making it clear right now that as President she'd cheerfully continue doing the same. Supportive of women and children? Really?


BigMin28

(1,473 posts)
54. Great response!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 07:05 PM
Feb 2016

I am 53, and have spent my adult life watching the Democratic party go further and further right. I am sick of the lies. I am all in for Bernie. Also my mother, and my daughter who is 33. Hillary Clinton hasn't represented most Americans for a long time, if ever, and I don't believe she will if elected.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
56. another K&R from a 50 y.o. woman
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 07:07 PM
Feb 2016

we won't be talked down to, disregarded or guilt tripped into voting for someone who we do not relate to feel is the wrong person for the job.

I would love to hear from men who are voting for Bernie. They MUST be tired of the whole "Bernie bro" thing!

SpookyCat

(1,066 posts)
70. This is wonderful Nanjeanne. May I borrow it?
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 10:38 PM
Feb 2016

I will certainly credit you, it would just be for my FB page. I have been deflecting all these arguments over and over and you have said it better than I have yet.

At 48 I'm in between you and the 24 year old.

Sue

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
80. Excellent post, Nanjeanne
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 02:27 AM
Feb 2016

The very serious people can keep insulting their voters, if they choose. I've been insulted enough. Sanders gets my vote because I know we deserve a much better governmemt for the 99%. We've been a steady diet of lies about the power and purpose of government for 30+ years, and it is time for this country to actually progess. Democrats can continue to peddle incrementalism all they want, but we do have the ability to make wars and corporate bailouts happen quickly. Why can't we have that urgency for things that actually benefit the people?

hopemountain

(3,919 posts)
81. thank you, nanjeanne
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 03:27 AM
Feb 2016

a 63 year old feminist and woman of color. your entire post is perfection. i stand with you. and, yes, young people are our future and should be respected no matter their age.

marble falls

(62,272 posts)
82. Wonderfully well written, well thought out and totally on the money. I don't represent Bernie: he...
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 06:43 AM
Feb 2016

represents me because I know who he is and he knows who I am.

I am very disheartened by Hillary's being forced to tack left.

paleotn

(19,272 posts)
85. Very, very, very well said!
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 07:56 AM
Feb 2016

I don't need a history lesson either. I've been following Washington politics since LBJ. But Bordo's piece wasn't really about that at all. It was just the reheated old canards we've been subjected to since 2008. I fully understand the sexism thrown at Hillary since the 80's in Arkansas and I'm behind her 100% on those issues. Always have been. She and I are aligned on many issues, but not on the issues I think are most important for the future right now....the buying of our democracy and economic justice.

It's not superficial bullshit or sexism or gender that's driving Bernie's campaign for me, Nanjeanne and 24 year olds and many others. It's policy, dammit! Why Bordo can't seem to grasp that, I simply don't know. Incrementalism and trying to work with the crazies on the other side has failed now for 8 years. 4 more years of failed strategy are not going to work either and that's NOT what our country needs.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
89. Another example of why I'm gleeful today. There's a chance we can be part of the process again.
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 11:14 AM
Feb 2016

Beautiful

prairierose

(2,147 posts)
92. Another woman baby-boomer for Sanders....
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 01:15 PM
Feb 2016

and I started supporting Sanders before he declared. I was one of those people who wrote to him and signed petitions asking him to run.

But as someone else in this thread said , following Bernie, we feel that we have a chance to participate and influence what might happen in the future. The DLC, by all of their many names, and the Clintons, have made it perfectly clear over the years that they do not care what the people have to say, they are going to listen to and work for the oligarchs and we, the people do not matter.

But Bernie tells us that we do matter. He cares what we think and he tells us that he wants and needs our help to make the changes we so desperately need in this country. He tells us that he understands the problems that we have and he has specific policy ideas to make change. Bernie talks about actual change not promises of maybe, trying to make change later, at some indeterminate time in the future.

Thanks for your very clear and articulate post Nanjeanne.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
94. lessee what else she's written on Huff--oh, it's nothing but Anne Boleyn?
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 03:02 PM
Feb 2016

it reminds me of the last nonentity to pop out of nowhere and lecture us, Sady Doyle
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251944119#post67

Nanjeanne

(5,439 posts)
95. Yes - it's not important to listen to young women who aren't well known like Katy Perry
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 03:09 PM
Feb 2016

She has some nerve writing a letter about how she feels about the very special Hillary Clinton.

And people wonder why Clinton and her supporters seem condescending.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
98. Isn't Huffingtonpost owned by some larger corporate interest?
Wed Feb 10, 2016, 03:46 PM
Feb 2016

Seems like i have been trying to warn people what these corporate type fools have been doing for the last ten years or so here at DU. I have learned a lot about it and so many other things hanging around here btw. Well anyway, finally we have this candidate that's been saying corporate rule is bad thing it seems for the last thirty years and people are starting to really get it. It doesn't take any special equipment to get this stuff, just an ear or two and a willingness to listen.

Tribalism or any other types of grouping is not really even needed, just some common sense to look and see what we are really up against.

Bernie says they are now going to throw the kitchen sink at us all. I would say they have gone a lot farther long ago. They exported the kitchen sink factory quite awhile ago and are now throwing the kitchen sinks at us by the boatload. They wished they would have put us all under earlier with all those hurls, but, alas, it didn't work. The battle has just been ratcheted up and it is US that is putting the heat them now. They don't appear to fairing as well as would as have been expected. Keep pushing, because everybody is counting on everybody else to push too

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»My Response to History Le...