2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Sanders still won't update his message on race issues
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/12/bernie-sanders-still-wont-update-his-message-on-race-issues/EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)You're used to a candidate that changes their positions all the time for short-term politics gain, but that's not what Sanders is about.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)It's normally a good idea for people to learn and grow with time. That's what being a progressive is all about, isn't it? I think he should show he's able to listen and learn. I never want a president who is so stuck on everything that they can't change their mind when they need to.
ananda
(28,858 posts).. but a true socialist in the most LIBERAL sense.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)You want him to change because you disagree with him. But that doesn't mean that him doing what you want = learning or growing.
Thinking he needs to learn to be good or clued up as you are is arrogant.
And no progressive isn't about changing your beliefs when it's expedient politically. I know Clinton has confused you, so that you THINK that's what progressive means - political games and cynical flip-flops, but no that's not progressive.
The thing about changing your mind is thst it's good to do it if youve learned you're wrong, but as much as it annoys you, he's not wrong; he has a perfectly valid approach and is putting it out there. If enough people agree he'll get the nomination. Changing his position to get the nomination, based on nothing more than people shouting at him to fall in line is weak and would be a disasterous personality traits to have as a President.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)If he doesn't see anything differently he shouldn't change his position to be elected. I would have thought he might have a different view of things now after talking to his AA advisors and other leaders in the black community.
You are very wrong if you think that I would suggest that anyone change their views for political advantage. That is not progressive. It IS progressive to listen and learn and steer a course in a better direction.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Listening to advisors doesn't mean he needs to change his position.
The point is that he's probably getting multiple opinions and unless he sees a reason to change, which I certainly haven't personally seen, then why should he?
I think that his positions are all rooted in his deep seated beliefs about what's wrong and how to fix it. He not opposed to listening and changing or taking advice, obviously, but I think it's presumptuous to assume that hes not acting like a progressive simply because he's not taking a specific bit of advice from the sea of advice he's probably getting.
One of his most endearing qualities is his consistency and so I'd imagine he's not going to radically change positions without a damn good reason.
Plus, honestly, the ability to stand up to the pressures put on him by all special interests and pressure groups is very reassuring. He may not ALWAYS do what any one person wants, but you can be sure he's doing what he thinks is right and that he won't stab you in the back just because of some advisors opinion.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)I never said he wasn't a progressive, and if you think I did, you took it in some way other than how I meant it.
The problems in this country are wide and varied and I think it would be difficult for any politician who had spent most of his time in a small state in the northeast to know about some of them. Maybe he does think fixing Wall Street and breaking up the big banks will fix it all. Okay then, you're right. He should not change because any group gives him information that he doesn't relate to.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)About fixing Wall St. and banks. It's about re-redristributing the wealth taken from the middle and working classes... That alone would go a LONG way to redressing the EFFECTS of institutional and societal racism. Will it FIX racism no? But. Will empowered people be less damaged by the hatred and ignorance of others? I find it hard to see a way that couldn't be true.
It's a difference approach to the same problem, but it's not not an approach. It's a legitimate idea and honestly, considering that he's much more likely to ACTUALLY spend his efforts and political capital trying to make this happen - for the poor and minorities - than almost any other politician out there.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)I have been discouraged by the elevated racism in this country since we elected President Obama. Although the Republicans like to blame him for this decline in reasonable behavior, it actually seems the reverse is true in some bizarre way. Racists seem outraged by the accomplishments of those they despise, so their behavior worsens. They want to remove all good things from those they hate. Helping the middle and working classes and alleviating poverty are all wonderful things and will certainly make life easier for all who benefit. My personal learning curve in the last 7+ years tells me things might get even worse than they are now in regard to racism *because* of these changes and we should consider being prepared for that. Please do not misinterpret this to mean I don't believe in the value of raising people up economically.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)I grew up in the deep South. I was caught in the middle of a race riot in High School and saw two kids shot dead over drugs... Black kids in a black neighborhood shoot by other black kids... And I mean kids.
I also saw endless confederate flags... Heard endless racial epithets and saw endless discrimination.
And yet.
There were some black kids and adults who avoided a lot of this. And the main way they did was money. Which sucks to say but it's true.
A large part of the problem that I saw was poor black and poor white racists tearing each other up. Not rich racists... They exist and got their sick thrills in other ways... But the racism I mostly saw was connected directly to poverty.
Imagine if a significant percentage of the minority population that can't afford University education suddenly good. Or people that had to work that third job to afford Healthcare could instead spend thst time with their families.
It wouldn't stop dad's from teaching their kids to hate, but it would create multiple situations where people now with few options could have at least one more.
And honestly I don't see ANYTHING being offered by Clinton that would come close to having such a transformational impact on the lives of so many.
dchill
(38,481 posts)Yeah, to another chameleon in mating season.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Sanders will need to win a higher percentage of minority votes than the most recent polling shows he is getting in upcoming states.
Sanders has a good message, but he isn't being received positively by minorities as reflected in polling. If you want him to be the nominee, shouldn't you care about that?
If you believe the article, which does quote Sanders from the debates the issue is that when he is asked a question about race, he gives a sentence on that before shifting right back into his standard message. But being middle class didn't stop Trayvon Martin or Sandra Bland from dying. It doesn't stop random black people from being pulled over while driving or stopped by the police while walking. It doesn't stop poor store security from following/harassing black customers. Insisting that only one approach will work, isn't exactly inviting people to join up unless they already believe what you do.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)goes "shifting right back into his standard message", then you mention that Trayvon and Sandra dying at the hands of police...
If you paid one second of attention, ever, you'd have heard Bernie Sanders talking about how bad black people have it at the hands of the police... how we need to demilitarize them, etc.
What planet do you live on?
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Hmmmm.....
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Your eyes rolled in wildeyed... something huh?
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Boring.
And yeah. It is Valentine's Day, right?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Or not...
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Please note, for future debate purposes, that "you people" is not a great choice when discussing race.
So hmmm..... Wonder why you chose that?
Everything else you typed was couched in insults, so whatever point you were trying to make got lost. One of your previous comments to me is completely rude and a personal attack, IMO.
So pretty sure you are not interested in a real debate of the issues.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)And if you want to call me racist, do it. Have some backbone and be open and notorious about it.
Or not.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)I did not call you anything. How would I know if you were racist or not? I don't live in your head. I only pointed out that 'you people' is a bad choice for conversations about race. You could have taken that for what it is, a good piece of advice from someone giving you the benefit of the doubt. Or choose to be defensive and rude. You chose the later.
You sure are sensitive on the subject. I'm done.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)How dare he focus on the systemic economic injustice that disproportionately affects minorities!? Doesn't he know an imperfect relationship is better than solutions?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)some other equally irrelevant idiocy.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from "superpredators" and "being brought to heel" to "firewall" but perhaps your author needs to update her knowledge of Bernie Sanders
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)But it's more important to some to just look for stuff to make Bernie look bad.
jfern
(5,204 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)and it's all "you racist motherfucker, get off my doorstep!". Hillary shows up with a teaspoon of icing and it's all "come on in!"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But I'd also not accept the cake.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)refusing welcome-to-the-neighborhood baked goods.
yourout
(7,527 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)immoderate
(20,885 posts)Can't wait for this.
--imm
bravenak
(34,648 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)We wont get the help you will because of racism, how to address that.
And do not talk about us like that anymore. It is hurtful
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...I know you've seen his racial justice platform because I've shared it with you. If you want to ignore it, fine...but don't paint his platform as just about taxing billionaires when it isn't.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He will tax the rich to give jobs to poor kids so they won't be hanging on street corners.
shawn703
(2,702 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Personally, I don't think that he believes that ALL problems will be solved by that, just some.
but I'll concede that point, if that is what it feels like he is doing. How should he be saying it?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No victim shaming. Racism is not the fault of kids on streetcorners.
Stop trying so hard to make racism about POVERTY
They are not the same thing
He needs to gain perspective on what it is
Then he can figure out solutions
If we say 'racist cops kill us' and he says ' free college, jobs!', how does that help us at all on the racism? It does not.
All blacks had jobs during slavery. It did nothing to solve racism.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)For a moment, be Bernie or Hillary
talk to me as if you are Bernie or Hillary and I am a black person.
What would you say to me?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Be quiet and listen stop lecturing you
Cannot learn what do do unless you
Stop trying to fit a round peg in a square hole
It hurts
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)and I was a black person.....What would YOU (as Bernie) say to ME (a black person)?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)What would his stump speech sound like?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's understandable
Human101948
(3,457 posts)you offer no useful advice or guidance yet you are happy to excoriate Bernie for not listening.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)Wealthy, well-educated black men are just as likely to be targeted. In fact, as we can see from President Obama's terms in office, sometimes the success black men have actually bring out racism that has previously remained hidden.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)What would a candidate need to say on race issues that you would resonate with and that would be helpful? I'm assuming that you think Sanders is too focuses on economic injustice?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Not talking about our kids on street corners
That is a stereotype
Wealthy kids suffer racism too
That was the question
Race RELATIONS
Makes it seem like we have issues with race because black kids dont have jobs.
He needs to fire divine
Bad track record
Matariki
(18,775 posts)"Makes it seem like we have issues with race because black kids dont have jobs." - yep, I agree, that could be inferred by the laser focus on 'jobs'.
In defense of Sanders, I believe he's trying to address the economic injustice that hits African American communities particularly hard but agree that he should be talking about it with cultural sensitivity.
I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that white Americans aren't very good at talking about race
bravenak
(34,648 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)tkmorris
(11,138 posts)At least, that is the impression I get anyway.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Nite Owl
(11,303 posts)He should speak about though in a debate. It is framed well too.
Senator Tankerbell
(316 posts)that there is no way he can keep. And some people don't want to apply the same standard to Clinton that they apply to Sanders.
I think his platform on these issues is actually very good:
https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/
I believe Hillary is polling better in SC because she has been a national celebrity since 1992 and she is better at pandering.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Senator Tankerbell
(316 posts)Can you explain the difference in framing because I don't see it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Senator Tankerbell
(316 posts)dinkytron
(568 posts)"Bernie speaks to students about ending racism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511232589
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)thereismore
(13,326 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)I actually feel sorry, its pretty sad
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Consistent race baiting.
This is at least the 2nd thread started this way.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Feb 14, 2016, 02:37 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't try to hide posts because they question your candidate's positions.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "started this way" meaning "using the headline the Washington Post gave it"? You may disagree with the opinions of the author and/or poster, but it's not race baiting.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think censoring discussions about race during an election season is what DU should be all about. Besides, I think the linked article is worth discussing.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't get it. Frivolous.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
bravenak
(34,648 posts)MrWendel
(1,881 posts)pull an alert.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I cannot see a chasm between Bernie's position and Hillary's position as described in the article.
I particularly appreciate the proposal that Congressman Jim Clyburn has the 10-20-30 proposal to try to spend more federal dollars in communities with persistent generational poverty,
Isn't Hillary focusing on economic concerns as well? I was a bit unnerved by Bernie's tone as conveyed by his quotes in the article. It does appear he places the focus in the wrong place when trying to talk about these things. I do get that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He has to empathize to understand why the things he says can offend
He has to care about offending
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Do you think you would hear a change of tone, or are you especially attached to the original offense? I understand if that's the case. I've been known to do that myself.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)(Signed, juror #5)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Wall Street Billionaires! See? Simple.
But, seriously, he does sound dated and simplistic in his responses. He is used to literally talking at people and not interacting with them. I guess that's what happens when you come from a small, unpopulated state with little diversity, which is the same thing people noticed about him months ago.
Great article, brave!
I thought Clinton's response about "persistent generational poverty" was excellent in the debate when she brought up Clyburn's 10-20-30 Amendment.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But I think now is the time to try harder. I did like how she addressed the multigenerational poverty. Not everything is oligarchs. Contrary to popular belief.
Response to R B Garr (Reply #45)
Name removed Message auto-removed
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)He's a Senator from Vermont
Response to R B Garr (Reply #66)
Name removed Message auto-removed
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)when he's a Senator from Vermont.
Response to R B Garr (Reply #75)
Name removed Message auto-removed
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Vermont has a population of 600,000. He's an elected official from Vermont.
Welcome to DU.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)thereismore
(13,326 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)and intends to spam DU to punish Bernie supporters for making her cranky or some such shit
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)It hurts
And DU gets to bear the brunt of the personal issues.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Starting with the crowd in his home state and the now infamous "Not Good Enough, Bernie" thread that associated him with slavery and racist cops.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...and Bernie Sanders doesn't.
That premise is false.
Bernie Sanders discussed that he wants to spend more in poor neighborhoods at a town hall in Minneapolis on Friday with a mostly black audience. Hillary Clinton was also invited but had a scheduling conflict and didn't attend.
Video of Bernie Sanders at Neighborhoods Organizing for Change town hall:
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Ending tax breaks to multinationals to focus tax credits where they should be. I could get behind that.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Derp.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Wall street wall street wall street
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Anyone who has actually listened to him, knows that isn't true. But keep on playing sore loser, it fits you well.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)So of course you were.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The source you link to lacks all credibility at this juncture in regard to the Democratic Primary. I don't give clicks to mediocre McCarthyites.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Who would have guessed it from Jeff Bezos@amazon.com?
zalinda
(5,621 posts)This campaign is not about black people, or brown people, or yellow people or red people or white people. It's about PEOPLE. In this country people are having a huge problem with just surviving, no matter what color they are. That rich black or brown people are being pulled over is going back to the ORIGINAL cause of the pull over, and that is that most black or brown people could not afford a car that nice. And, yes the cause is probably not the same as it was, some cops being what they are, and it has become standard operating procedure. It becomes habit, just like buying the same brand of peanut butter. It's thoughtless. And, it's not only the police, but in all forms of business, especially retail stores that have bought into this.
Bernie aims to change this perception, by making it less likely that people will perceive that black or brown people will steal or do illegal things, because they now have financial stability. Hardly any one gives notice to the millions of white people who are also poor and struggling. They are just as likely to commit a crime as their black or brown neighbor, but because of the bias of what 'used to be', they are not targeted.
When some one is struggling and they see what they consider 'unfairness' to some one getting something that they didn't earn, you get prejudice. You see a man get a job that woman is qualified for, and the woman sees it as unfair. You see a black person get into college that a white person also qualified for, the white guy sees it as unfair. It goes on and on. Bernie can't change jealousy, but he can try to change perception.
A lot of racial tension is economic, it is the core value of every person on this planet. If a person is struggling to survive and sees another person he perceives as having it easy, there is prejudice. If I hear one more person tell me how easy it is being on Welfare and Food Stamps....LOL. Yes, quitting your $50,000 a year job and living hand to mouth and collecting a small government handout is much easier than working. Really?
Things can change, it isn't easy and it isn't fast, but working for economic equality is the first step.
Any one else remember how we laughed at people paying for water? Now people don't ask you if you want a glass of water, but a bottle of water. Yes, things do change.
Z
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And not all blacks are poor. Most are NOT. So using us hanging on street corners to illustrate his point was a bad fucking idea. He was asked about race relations, not 'all people'
zalinda
(5,621 posts)You don't think NA's have problems with the police? You don't think that poor white in rural communities don't have problems with the police?
Of course not all blacks are poor, but back in the 30's, 40's and 50's, the vast majority were poor. As I said, what was once true has now become dogma. Dogma is very difficult to change, but it is changing. With Blacks and others who have been traditionally poor getting more financial parity, the dogma can be broken more easily. With a leader who will have no fear of prosecuting those who still adhere to the dogma, things will change. Dogma can only be broken from top down and Bernie will make sure that those chiefs of police will adhere to new government policy. For instance, Bernie plans to move marijuana out of schedule 1, and possibly get it legal federally.
Hillary has no plans to do any of that. She is pretty much satisfied with what Obama has been doing, and plans to do the same. While I know that Obama didn't want to be known as the BLACK President, he still should have done something to help minorities. And, again, why hasn't black America held Obama's feet to the fire?
Z
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)one way for white audiences and another for black ones
one way for a jewish opponent and another way for a black one
valerief
(53,235 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Pay your damn taxes, Jeff!
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)We can talk about it as a racial issue, but its a general economic issue, he said.
There it is. That is what he believes. That is where he will spend his political capital if elected. Like you, I disagree. I think that we should address systemic racism and voting rights issues FIRST, then the economic issues fall into place.
This does not mean I am calling Sanders a racist. He is not. But this IS a pretty serious policy disagreement.
He and I do not see eye to eye.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's all I can do with politicians
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He wants working class whites. We'll see if it's the right choice, tactically.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That hanging on street corners shit pisses me off
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Beausoir
(7,540 posts)He literally thinks he is the most important man on earth. He has been a political insider for nearly 30 years. He loves the cushy perks and ego-stroking that go along with his job sucking at the government teat.
He simply can't connect with the rest of us because of his insulated lifestyle.
He is unelectable and he is NOT a Democrat....by his own admission.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I don't think you know what the word, "literally" means.