2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI will worry if these results carry over into November.
The potential presidential match up that worries me the most would be Donald Trump against Hillary Clinton. Trump is strongly perceived as an outsider in an anti-establishment year. Even though Hillary won a narrow but solid victory over Bernie tonight in Nevada, that doesn't negate the fact that there is a strong anti-establishment tide on the Democratic side as well. It is clear that virtually the entire national apparatus of the Democratic Party has united strongly behind Hillary. It is a meaningful accomplishment that she's won such strong loyalty from her peers. But considering that, the fact that Clinton has had to battle so hard to hold back a challenge from Bernie Sanders speaks louder than her victory tonight does against a surging insurgent - one who was virtually unknown six months ago and had miles of catching up to do without the support of virtually any key inside players.
I am not taking anything away from Bernie Sanders in saying this, but does anyone really doubt that Hillary would be in deeper political trouble now than she already is had Elizabeth Warren, who would have started out far better known than Sanders, had chosen to enter the race for President instead of Bernie (who remains the politician I most deeply believe in)?
Two candidates this election year have generated unexpected and historic levels of excitement on the stump; Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Two have significantly under performed earlier expectations in that regard; Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush, and both of them were pegged as the arch typical establishment politicians from their respective parties. Yes Hillary remains far more viable than Jeb does now, and clearly there is much stronger active support for Hillary Clinton than there is for Jeb Bush, but she has continually struggled to generate sustained grass roots passion at levels commiserate to either Sanders or Trump.
Trump prides himself on being spontaneous and coming across as refreshingly candid, whereas Clinton sometimes suffers from coming across as staged. There is troubling consistent polling data on the question of "telling it like it is" and being "truthful". Donald Trump, like Bernie Sanders, polls very well by that matrix. Hillary Clinton does not. Part of what makes an anti-establishment mood an anti-establishment mood is a loss of confidence and trust in the perceived system that the public believes runs our lives, and those who they associate with that system. Trump is better positioned to ride an anti-establishment wave than is Hillary Clinton.
If Hillary Clinton becomes our nominee she will be attacked from the right on many fronts by whoever the Republican nominate, as would Bernie Sanders. In addition though, as our former Secretary of State, she will be blamed by them personally for the continued existence of every threat out there in the world that may cause Americans to lose sleep. She can counter with experience, some significant nuanced accomplishments, a grasp of details, and overall superior judgment. Depending on the existing level of fear among the public during the election campaign that Republicans will seek to exploit, Clinton's foreign experience advantage could dissolve into her being made the scapegoat for everything that has not gone as well as people would have wished for. If there are ready made trust issues to exploit against Clinton on top of that, the latter scenario becomes easier for Republicans in general, and Donald Trump specifically, to sell.
If Donald Trump becomes the Republican nominee he would additionally be able to attack Hillary Clinton in ways that are considered highly unorthodox for most Republicans, from the left so to speak. That starts with the Iraq War where Trump would strongly attack Clinton for her pro Iraq War Resolution vote. Whereas Bernie Sanders has a long standing history of strenuously opposing international trade deals that many believe hurt working Americans, Hillary Clinton does not. She would be vulnerable to an attack by Trump there as well. Finally there is that matter of Hillary taking large sums of money from Wall Street to fuel her own election campaigns etc.
Trump positions himself as incorruptible, he would probably characterize Hillary as hopelessly compromised by big money interests, and do so in a manner far more viscous than anything that Bernie Sanders has said against her. I expect Trump would claim, true or not, first hand knowledge of ways in which Clinton is bought by Wall Street special interests that he himself is so familiar with.
In a normal election year I would still say that Hillary Clinton would enter a fall campaign holding most of the cards. I still think that's true, more likely than not, but I also know that this is far from being a normal election year. And that is why I will worry if the Presidential election ends up being between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Trump is my dream Republican candidate. ANY Dem would kick his ass.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)But I am not secure in that conviction. I think any other match up would more predictably lead to a Democratic victory. Trump is a wild card who will attack from any point on the ideological spectrum.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That means Cruz would have to drop out because the party leaders will take Trump over Cruz.
That ain't happening. Trump will win.
oh08dem
(339 posts)the GOP establishment might force a brokered convention, or treat him as persona non grata during the GE campaign. Out of the three dinguses on the right Rubio would be the worst, followed by Trump, then Cruz in my opinion, but it's going to be hard for Hillary no matter cause she's a low ceiling candidate.
artislife
(9,497 posts)would she lose the Latino vote? It would be pretty enticing to put in one of ours.(Latina here)
I mean, how many times will our community have the chance to elect one of us?
oh08dem
(339 posts)as he's an adamant xenophobe. In general she'll motivate more people to vote against her, than she'll inspire people to vote for her, and that's troubling since the democrats NEED max turn out from the base if they lose independents.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)And most of the enthusiasm on the Democratic side is for Sanders.
Cosmocat
(14,561 posts)Either party would lose the general HUGE, and suffer dramatically down ballot if they went away from the "winner" of the primary.
And, republicans are republicans, the liberal satan, be it hillary or bernie, will far exceed anyone's disdain for the donald, and they will get behind him 100 percent like anyone else.
Broward
(1,976 posts)for all the reasons you state.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)The electorate is not so silly as to elect Trump. I hope!
shanti
(21,675 posts)voted in schwartzenfuhrer as governor. nuff said.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)Plus Reagan!
fortunately, i don't see that happening again (here), we're much too blue. the 7 years that arnold was in power were the most miserable of my state career. i lost a LOT of money due to furloughs, etc. i shudder to think of a trump presidency.
artislife
(9,497 posts)shanti
(21,675 posts)did you fare badly under him?
artislife
(9,497 posts)tblue37
(65,281 posts)of the American voter.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)As a populist candidate he is not bound by the rules of the normal political spectrum. That gives him and advantage most Republicans don't get, he can pivot to appeal to voters on a wide range of hot button issues. The fact that he is a "big success" at business gives comfort to some voters that he must know what he is doing.
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)Be careful what you wish for. Plus, Trump will use the trade treaties and perhaps the Iraq War against her.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)She will have absolutely no way to counter his "insider knowledge" and even her denials will come across disastrously since its when she's at her worst when she's confronted with that kind of WS/insider corruption accusations.
She's going to lose. I 100% agree
Yup
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)But once the gloves come off in the GE an endless stream of Double-dealing insider politics Hillary is fully guilty of with the proof easily accessed on the internet
it don't look good
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Humiliating them in public
You can argue forever that Hillary won't be baited but she's failed the Wall St/insider question every single time it's come up so far. Even I smell the blood in the water on this question.
Goldman Handcuffs will be the least Trump throws at her. I predict he'll have incriminating direct quotes from her speeches if she hasn't released them yet. He'll have insider knowledge of her SOS pay to play scheme with the Clinton foundation and worse, much worse. He's utterly shameless and he knows her weak spots
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Yes, as well as likely knowing some of her at least slightly soiled laundry.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)I'm sure its common knowledge around Wall St
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)That would also seem to be a point of attack for Trump.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)So far I haven't heard him claim that he got anything specific from that other than classic "good will" and "access". Te problem is that Trump can and will connect dots for people about why wealthy donors donate large sums to political campaign in order to win "good will". He can make that part of the corrupt system argument better than Bernie can because he will explain exactly why it is a good business investment - and people will believe that coming from him.
tblue37
(65,281 posts)actually be true--once. But if the moneybags paid to play but then didn't get the consideration they paid for, they would not pay again, much less keep on paying, not even just once more, but over and over and over again.
Regardless of her experience, Hillary's political judgment is terrible.
She is also an awkward candidate, quite apart from her errors of judgment and her *appearance* of being corrupted by money, whether she is corrupted or not.
If Bernie were as brutal and conscienceless against her as Trump has been against Jeb!, she might not have lasted any longer than Jeb! did. Sure, such nastiness against her would make it impossible to get anyone in Washington to cooperate with Bernie after the election, but Trump faces the same probem on the Republican side if he manages the unthinkable and becomes president. Bernie's decency has protected her. She won't be protected by decency against any Republican candidate, because the GOP doesn't do decency.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Yes, he is not oping for a take down, he wants to win with his message. All of the Republicans would be brutal toward Hillary or Bernie, but most of them are not as well positioned to exploit Clinton's weaknesses as is Trump. The rest of them are are in bed with their own Super PAC's just for starters. Trump positions himself as a hawk in regards to the present and a dove in regards to the past vis a vis Iraq. He would go after her both coming and going. Most Republicans can only play the hawk card.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)The primaries are good for Hillary. It's toughening her up and getting her ready for November. If we win in November it won't be a landslide it'll be within 20 electoral votes of the repubs. Hillary can do it but it'll be hard. We'd better hope they nominate trump.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)The Clinton haters would still chose him over her and he would pull in anti-establishment voters. The enthusiasm gap would not work to our advantage, with the significant exception of Hispanics - but thy will come out for either Democrat against Trump.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)what time it is. They helped get Obama in for sure.
They will be in the forefront of the stop Trump movement.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)in regards to Trump. And I live in a swing state.
Trump has already called Clinton evil in a certain way. Where do you think that is headed? Trumps appeal to emotion will leave the Democrats reeling.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)I congratulate Hillary and her team for their winning effort in Nevada. I will work hard for her if she wins the nomination.I believe Bernie would make a better candidate though for the above and other reasons, and don't believe the race on either side is settled yet. But Trump is seeming more and more likely and it is the reasons why that seems to be happening that lead to my opinion expressed above.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)It is frightening so many think Donald Trump is a legitimate candidate for President, however, I still think the numbers are on our side. Most of the big states will go Democratic no matter what and all we need to do is get a couple of the swing states and we win. Barring some unforeseen crazy shit happening, Hillary will be our next President.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)... but I agree she is the favorite to win it, and has been all along. Why I am not certain she will secure it is grist for another discussion though.
As to your main point I agree the numbers are on our side and should hold up, but I am worried that Hillary hasn't been doing better with Independents, which is the largest sub set of the electorate. And then there is the enthusiasm gap which Trump manipulates effectively. It seems like this election cycle the only thing that would still be unforeseen is crazy shit NOT happening.
Vinca
(50,255 posts)Jeb was the presumed candidate for the right and with one pretty mild attack - "Jeb is low energy" - he takes him out. If he's the nominee up against Hillary, we've got big, big problems. Hillary's baggage could fill a freight train and we have an ongoing FBI investigation. Trump will paint her as a criminal and it will probably stick. (Keep in mind, we're political junkies but more than half the population couldn't name 3 Supreme Court justices for a million dollar prize. But they can probably tell you about every season of "The Apprentice."
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)The numbers don't lie. She will lose.
100% agree with your assessment about Trump. Hillary puts one of them in the White House, and she will probably hand them a veto-proof majority too.
That's some serious shit! This goes way beyond "I want to vote for a woman".
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)For a number of reasons I believe that Sanders would be our stronger candidate against any of them. All of the Republicans present different challenges, but Trump can get to the left of Hillary on several issues while also attacking her from the right. The others can't. That is a special case, and dangerous to us, especially with an anti-establishment climate. Bernie doesn't have that vulnerability, and he can even appeal to some potential Trump voters on issues that Trump would try to turn against Clinton if she is his opponent.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Trump would increase Repub turnout and Hillary as nominee would increase Repub turnout. It would be turnout on steroids for them if it's Hillary vs. Trump. And at the same time, she'd depress Dem turnout and leave Independents and millennials cold.
Any Dem should win this time against the R's ridiculous lineup... except her. Nominating her is the way to shoot ourselves in the foot. I hate to see it. It's so unnecessary. And for what, so she can have "her turn"?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The peer reviewed research suggests asking voters who they think will win is the best predictor of electoral success, ergo:
Simple surveys that ask people who they expect to win are among the most
accurate methods for forecasting U.S. presidential elections
https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf
The peer reviewed reviewed research also suggests predictions/gaming markets yield accurate forecasts:
daily market forecasts to results from polls published the same day. These studies generally find
that prediction markets yield more accurate forecasts than single polls.
https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf
Hillary Clinton is a 10/11 favorite at the offshore betting sites and the VT senator is a 7-1 underdog
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner
If you bet on Hillary you have to put up $1,100 to win $1,000.00
If you bet on Bernie you have to put up $145.00 to win $1,000.00.
In closing, the peer reviewed research suggest polling, months out from an election are the least efficacious method of predicting electoral results, ergo:
intend to vote if the election were held today. That is, polls do not provide predictions; they
provide snapshots of public opinion at a certain point in time. However, this is not how the
media commonly treat polls. Polling results are routinely interpreted as forecasts of what will
happen on Election Day (Hillygus 2011). This can result in poor predictions, in particular if the
election is still far away, because public opinion can be difficult to measure and fragile over the course of a campaign. However, researchers found ways to deal with these problems and to
increase the accuracy of poll-based predictions.
https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)...but I don't think I can think of any prior political David vs Goliath match up that comes close to Sanders vs Clinton. The massive difference in long term public familiarity levels regarding each candidate is unmatched in at least recent political history. Essentially most of the public has had over a decade of concretely visualizing Hillary as President and about three weeks of thinking it was even remotely possible for Sanders. I think that skews the results in ways that make precedent in this case non applicable.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)My point is simply that the political science research indicates Mrs. Clinton is in good shape for the general. And of course, I don't believe the research is dispositive, in the current instance. I look at the research as a guide.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)It would only be the complete failure on Clinton's part if they do, should she be the nominee.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Is just living in the land of Unicorns.
Clinton depresses the voter turnout for Dems, but Trump doesn't have the same effect for GOP.
Trump will drive turnout for the GOP.