On what is going on here (and the real world)

[nadinbrzezinski]

First let me preface this by saying that when I spoke with an acquaintance on Sunday about the state of the race and how he has personally been harassed, not online, in real life, by HRC supporters., I went... ok. That is ugly, but anecdotal. So there is that block of salt over there. Feel; free.

Today I heard a person harassing another at the supper market over the race, and badgering over how much better HRC is... it is kind of weird to hear that in the meat department, and it is still anecdotal. That said, this did not happen in 2008. I do not know the background. For all I know both are democrats and they are muscularly discussing endorsements... so again that block of salt over there, feel free...

This is leaving a very nasty taste in some very real voters mouths. and you should consider what effect that will have in November.I cannot say what is the percentage, and unlike some of you I will not go and make statements such as ALL VOTERS... that be silly. Quite frankly, I live in a state that if the democrats decided to run The King of Darkness, for president with Chtullu for VEEP, with an agenda of the end of the world party on Monday, after the swearing in, and the actual apocalypse on Tuesday, the state will still go blue.

That said, there are rumblings that people are getting tired of being promised whatever is needed to get elected, and very little of that delivered, or worst selling the base down the river. So how long will CA remain blue... I don't know. When those rumblings start, sooner or later they do translate to actual losses at the ballot. Thankfully, our Assembly is far less dysfunctional and it actually is delivering, and that is what is saving the bacon of the party for the moment, and yes I have been told this by a few community leaders and labor leaders.

But for the moment, I think I and every other political observer in the state would be very surprised if this state voted for the R ticket in November and the state went red. So if a few thousand Sanders supporters vote in this state for Jill Stein, sit on their hands or decide decide to hold their noses, it will make like zero, zilch, none whatsoever of a difference. But there are warning signs in the horizon.

Now if those same thousands decide to do the same in oh Ohio, you can count on that possibly swinging the election. Assuming HRC becomes the nominee (I like contested primaries), you will need the votes of the youth you continue to disparage for wanting "free stuff" and not being realistic. You will also need the votes of the women that none other than Albright said would burn in hell if they did not vote for Clinton. You will need the votes of people, like the two very anecdotal examples I provided. One at least is intending to stay home. I might be able to get them to go to the polls for DOWN TICKET races and propositions. Am afraid that person will never, ever vote for Clinton.

Oh and I will also say this. My local congressman, who happens to be in one of the 7 true swing districts, with his vote for the TTP, managed to piss off labor. The only reason he won last time, and it was damn close, was labor. Labor has said that they will not vote for him, or phone bank for him, or precinct walk for him. They are tired of getting taken for granted. And what is the use of having a Dem in office when he votes the way they expect a republican to vote? Those are the warning signs in my state. Just some of them.

Now Bernie Supporters come here. We need to have this talk.

If you live in a state like mine, sure vote your conscience. I get it. Trust me, I have been mistreated virtually by these people to the point that I got a list of them, and have zero respect for them and consider many of them racists. They are not my friends. And if (statistically this is the Rs race to lose), Trump becomes president I do not consider them my allies either. Though I will keep to myself who I vote for, since I consider the vote to be secret, and that is the way I intend to keep it. I think the only person who knows is my husband, but only because we write about the issues, we examine the propositions, we read the damn things from cover to cover and discuss them.

We do the same with the presidential race. We have spent way, and i mean this, WWWAAYYYYY too much time at all candidate sites, that includes the Rs by the way. and since we live in CA, by the time our primary happens... it's pretty much over. I am showing up not for the primary, whatever. but for minimum wage, my mayor, the house race (which is a joke at this point). I will not be there because there is a presidential primary, it is an after thought.

That said, if you live in one of those states where it truly matters... the two party system, as corrupt as it is, well it is baked into the cake. It is in the Constitution. It is the winner take all in the constitution. It is corrupting, it is something that the founding fathers, or at least many of those who wrote into the Federalist and Anti Federalists did not foresee. After all, they hated factions. I think they would be horrified to be honest.

You honestly think that the two major parties, that have passed laws to benefit them over the last 150 years are going to get anything into law, let alone an amendment, that will take power away from them? Nope, they won't. And this is both parties... not just one. The system is too cozy, so why change now?

Now the anger is real. I get it. And in time it might lead to an actual revolution. Oligarchies tend not to go though the ballot box. just ask your neighbor to the south, where democracy pretty much has failed.

We have a failed democracy... there is no doubt in my mind. But this is not about November... this is a very long game. Some of us might be alive to see it.

Perhaps the cynicism of an 18 year old first voter in Mexico City (that be me) applies here, "vote to stay in practice, for when it matters." But the battle, it is not truly at the ballot box. It is in the streets, it is in the work place it is... really everywhere but the ballot box. The system will protect itself, and will only respond to pressure that comes from the outside.

That said, do vote... against a Republican if you must... because you know what? A trump presidency (which I fully expect) will be a disaster for the country.

Why do you bloody think Occupy was suppressed the way it was? Why do you think the tanks came out in Fergusson?


Now to the end game

The sad thing is that what I am observing... Clinton is likely going to win the battle, but badly lose the war. Republicans will walk though broken glass, snow rain, fire, hell fire, to vote against her. It is that simple. But the tone we are seeing will also lead to people staying home becuase they have had it. They will not vote for her, period... many who were bullied by her supporters will stay home.

When the dissection comes the Democratic party will never admit that the politics of personal destruction cost them the election. This is what is going on by the way. But some of us are not fools and we see it and call it for what it is. While you proceed to blame the youth that you maligned, and the younger women that you maligned for not showing up. I will blame, every one and each of the Clinton supporters who created an environment that is now translating to the meat department at a suburban store in Southern California for it. I have never seen this vitriol, or quite frankly hate.

You think you can win without the progressives? Have at it.

Oh and even longer game. The country has had two pro corporate parties in the past, when both are pro corporate. It tends not to last... something about a vacuum. So in time you will see something happen, something that I am sure in your wildest dreams you do not expect. And I expect to be alive for that one.

But come November, yup, I told you so. I cannot way to tell you that.

And yes I expect you to alert on this... it's the way you roll.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

1. "We have a failed democracy" ... and Capitalism

Both the political system and the economic system has failed.

[Hydra]

133. Capitalism won

As it always does. Now...will it eat itself?

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Great op Nadine.

We have to be in this for the long haul. Sanders is demonstrating that we do exist- there is a large and enthusiastic left voting bloc - we need to move forward regardless of the outcome of the primaries and build that bloc into a deciding force.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. If the two parties remain beholden to WS

I foresee the rise of a pro labor party in the US. It won't be easy. There are 150 years of laws baked into the cake, but there is a vacuum now.

[AtheistCrusader]

63. We badly need a Labor/Progressive party.

The Democratic Party used to mostly stand up for both, but that appears to be over, with a vengeance at this point.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

71. Like I have said before.

Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.

Then Bernie will win

[bvar22]

134. Vacuums are filled.

Its Physics,..... AND Politics.
I'm being pulled into that vacuum on the Left.....NOW.
Hope to see you there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Let me give you a hand.

Been there since my early days in Mexico. And god knows that left is way, and I mean this, way to the left of the Ametican left.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

139. I have to ask: Where is this swell of support at the voting booth. Turnout is low

for Democrats. Almost historically low.

If Bernie can bring more enthusiasm to the voters, he seems not to be doing that this year.

To me, neither candidate has done well, and there's an enthusiasm gap as usual, with Republicans winning the war.

Maybe Bernie Sanders does have a better chance of winning against any Republican. But I can't see it because turnout is so low. He has to do more to prove that he can win.

[basselope]

3. Very well said.

[Hoyt]

5. Don't agree with a lot of it, but nothing to alert on, IMO

[haikugal]

6. Thanks for this post Nadin, well done and I see the same things! nt

[Armstead]

7. Clinton could have run an honorable campaign. She chose not to.

She may well lose in November because of it.

If she squeaks out a win, it will be without a broad base of support. She will preside over years of gridlock and stalemate.

Didn't have to be that way, but she and her campaign chose it.

[LovingA2andMI]

29. The sad thing....

She will not squeak out a win. History -- Bill Clinton would not have won in 1992 if Ross Perot was NOT in the race. If there is not a third party candidacy, the vote will not be split -- so it will come down to who votes, who stays home and who are pissed off with the entire system to participate.

[Armstead]

31. Or fuel a third party spoiler campaign like the Greens

They are nothing at the moment. But.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I expect the vacuum in the left side of poltics

to be filled in by somebody... the question is when

[MissDeeds]

33. Agreed

The way she has run her campaign has alienated many voters who may have helped her in the GE, if she gets that far.

If she goes down in flames, she has herself, the DNC and DWS to thank for it.

[Justice]

106. How exactly has Clinton not run an honorable campaign?

[tonybgood]

146. How long would you like this response?

Having surrogates try to erase Bernie Sanders from the civil rights fight in the 60's (Jonathan Capehart).

Having surrogates demean young voters who support Sanders as "uninformed idealists".

Parroting Bernie Sanders talking points as if they were her own.

Lying about Sanders positions and calling him a "single issue" candidate.

Using the GOP tactics of fear to lie about Sanders health care proposals.

This list could go on and on but I'm sure you won't agree. She's dishonest, she's untrustworthy and if the Democratic Party select her as their standard bearer, they will go down to electoral defeat in 2016 and they will deserve it for foisting an unelectable candidate on us.

[katmille]

155. Ha! Have you seen the vitriol from the BS group?

Both sides are to blame, but I read both and I have to stop reading some of the sexist, obscene remarks made toward Hillary. Sorry, Bernie supporters, you win the mud-slinging battle, but you may lose the war!

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. It is 80-20 in my experience

with the 80 being HRC supporters and I have personally gotten the "love" as it were.

[Doctor_J]

165. Like all conservatives, she fails miserably on the issues. That leaves smears,

shape-shifts, and red herrings as her only campaign planks. It is deplorable that she and the party apparatchiks have chosen to push away all of Sanders' young supporters.

[liberal_at_heart]

8. I will not say who I will vote for in November but I will say this.

I am an Independent and will not pledge my loyalty to any party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yup we are in the 40 percent

[liberal_at_heart]

12. When we were in the minority they knew they could abuse us and just demand our vote.

We are no longer in the minority.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Nope, and in my state, an open primary state

we actually have a lot more of a say.

[VulgarPoet]

23. Semi-open state here

I already sent away my absentee ballot since I'm stationed away from my home of record; I intend to campaign for Sanders, but as far as I'm concerned, I still see myself Independent. Mostly because the Pirate Party of Iceland will never make headway here, and they support literally everything I support in the tech sector.

But they day I vote to put Hillary Clinton in office, being an active duty Airman, knowing full well what her husband did to the military under his tenure, knowing full well what she has done in other political arenas and KNOWING how our veterans are treated upon separation or retirement?

That'll be the day I've betrayed my conscience and morals. I vote with my beliefs, not with fear of the enemy. And to be fair? "My country right or wrong" is getting really fucking old.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I am quite cynical about elections

I do not think they make a tinker's damn of a difference to be honest.

The real politics happens away from the ballot box.

This 2008 video from Jib Jab captures this perfectly well

[VulgarPoet]

28. Oh Christ, Jib Jab.

I remember watching this in freshman year and dying laughing because I was a freshman-- I couldn't participate, so I staved off the depression by finding reasons to laugh at it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. It is indeed a classic

but the end, we spend billions to get you to vote and we spin you... sums it perfectly well.

[dana_b]

9. wow!

Seriously - Brava! Great op and I can't disagree with anything that you've said. I hope that it doesn't get alerted upon because it gets to the meat and feeling of it.

I live in California too so I know that I have the luxury to vote how i want. Although I kind of suspect to know who will be the nominee by early June. Who knows - I may be surprised and people will get with it. Anyway, I am bookmarking this because i think it's that good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Do me a favor and see if you find other people

who have been bullied in the real world.

I hope quite honestly that these two cases are as outliers as you can get.

[dana_b]

25. Sure

I haven't heard talk like that but I also haven't talked with people on politics. I got a new Bernie shirt in the mail yesterday. I will wear it out for a couple of days and see if anyone engages with me.

[Bohunk68]

43. On facebook, you seen the bullying going on constantly, without letup.

I have tried to be diplomatic and a nice guy, like Bernie, but I am really getting to the point where if you are supporting Hillary, we are done on fb. I agree with everything you said in the OP. I am also an Election Inspector, and there will be 3 primaries in NYS, and it will be blue no matter what. But, this I can say, the Republics will for sure come out to vote because they hate Hillary so much. That so-called 11th commandment of the Repubs also contained the phrase, always vote, because when Dems don't show up, we win.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I have unfollowed people

but I have seen this in social media... like 2008 to a point

This jumping to the real world is a bad sign to me.

[malokvale77]

95. Not outliers at all. nt

[thereismore]

14. I bet there are some people who would vote for Trump just for the hell of it, see what happens. Sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. And I think there are people who will stay home

becuase of what is going on right now.

As to trump. There are people who will vote for him because he has a certain appeal, populist and all. I went on a limb in August at the paper I run and said that I expected him to be the nominee... but I understand his appeal, even if it scares the living daylights out of me. I get trump... sadly I do not think many democrats do.

[thereismore]

19. At least he is against TPP, and is really an atheist even though he poses as a Christian.

Those two are not bad. We'll see. Bernie is not done yet. It's 51-51. It may go down to CA in June.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. The democratic race will be done by June

trust me.

But this is a contested thing... and as I said in the OP, I like contested elections

[olddots]

16. I'm alerting on this

Because I agree 100 % with you .The 3rd. Way doesn't have any idea who their freinds are because they value convenience over equality .

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. They value power and money

the third way was sent to the curb in England already...

[dragonfly301]

18. My 18 yo sent me a reddit link

to cheer me up yesterday (feeling down after Nevada) https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/46vm4e/need_a_pick_me_up_here_is_my_sc_ground_report/

the link basically said there were still many undecideds in SC up for grabs.
I told him not to get his hopes up. That pissed him off and this is what he wrote back...

If voting is just some monotonous activity, why should I give a shit who runs this country
It's all the same, right?
No
I'm excited about someone who actually cares
Someone who will be different

Well I'm 40 years older than him (oops!) and a lot more jaded. Big money always seems to beat good intentions. I want him to still be enthusiastic about changing the country/world 10 years from now, 20 years from now...but I fear that he and other young voters will soon feel that their voice does not count as much as wealthy donors and special interest groups and what should be the goals of the Democratic Party are no longer our goals. Long term, the DNC and their obvious bias towards Hillary are going to create an apathetic generation.

[liberal_at_heart]

20. Those of us that are older know that fights this big don't happen overnight.

The Millennials need to know this is a long battle that will not end with this election. We will be fighting this one for years to come. We all need to be ready for it and not give up at the first set back.

[dragonfly301]

24. This kid is stubborn

and will fight but maybe not in the framework of the party. He is noticing all the petty things that DWS, msm and the Clinton's have done in this campaign to block Bernie and he's disgusted with them but as of now he still has hope.

[liberal_at_heart]

42. And he should be disgusted. I'm glad the Millennials are willing to work outside the

framework of the party. It is the only way to let the Democratic Party know that if they don't do what the voters want them to do then the voters will simply go somewhere else. It is the only way to make them accountable which right now they are not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. That is partly becuase kids (and many of their elders)

are too much into TV dramas as it were. They expect things to be tidied up in 44 minutes.

Well remind your son that women's vote took two generations

[LovingA2andMI]

26. The Words Are SO TRUE, SO RIGHT....Thank You For Saying It...K/R!!!

THIS INDEED:

The sad thing is that what I am observing... Clinton is likely going to win the battle, but badly lose the war. Republicans will walk though broken glass, snow rain, fire, hell fire, to vote against her. It is that simple. But the tone we are seeing will also lead to people staying home becuase they have had it. They will not vote for her, period... many who were bullied by her supporters will stay home.

When the dissection comes the Democratic party will never admit that the politics of personal destruction cost them the election. This is what is going on by the way. But some of us are not fools and we see it and call it for what it is. While you proceed to blame the youth that you maligned, and the younger women that you maligned for not showing up. I will blame, every one and each of the Clinton supporters who created an environment that is now translating to the meat department at a suburban store in Southern California for it. I have never seen this vitriol, or quite frankly hate.

You think you can win without the progressives? Have at it.

Rome is Burning Now. By November, Rome Would Have Burned Down!!

At least some tried to save it but others refused to throw water on the fire.

[Thespian2]

32. K & R!!!

[MissDeeds]

34. Excellent post, nadin

Thanks for your insight.



K&R

[azurnoir]

35. very well said and what I've posited all along is that the real threat to Hillary

isn't necessarily from Bernie's supporters but from the mass of undecided non-aligned with either party people out there, those who not vote her simply because she's the Democratic candidate

[joshcryer]

37. Another post to add to my DUers who think Trunp'll win bookmarks.

Exclusively Sanders "supporters" so far. Man that support was a mile wide but an inch deep.

[LovingA2andMI]

39. Do You Think...

A Candidate Can Dismiss and Anger Over Half of the Progressive Base of the Democratic Party and a up to Half of Left-Leaning Independents plus Millennials -- and STILL beat A (let's say Candidate "A&quot Republican for POTUS in the General?

[joshcryer]

45. I think Trump is the worst candidate the GOP can run.

The American people still remember the Bush years, that's why Trump is so desperate to attack Bush, because he wants to shed that image. But he's an empty suit.

Get back to me if Rubio gets in, then I might break a sweat, put my shoes on, and GOTV.

This will be the easiest election in history.

[LovingA2andMI]

47. Bob Dole .....

Just Endorsed Marco Rubio. The GOP is coming around their candidate. We have the Democrats throwing Bernie Sanders under the bus who have voted with the Democrats by Caucus over 25 years in Congress.

Rome is Burning and the GOP is getting their shit together.

However it is the DNC and the Clinton's Fault, not Bernie's -- Rome Is Burning in the Democratic Party at this point.

[joshcryer]

54. OP isn't about Rubio.

And if Cruz stays in, which is likely, Rubio can't catch Trump.

I've never seen someone I respected here get it so wrong and do such an aggressive and messed up about face before. Most of the others are on ignore.

Do Sanders "supporters" not realize their smears would apply to Sanders himself if he lost and stumped for Clinton? This is so stupid, it's embarrassing.

[LovingA2andMI]

60. Who Knows What Sanders Would Do...

If he loses the nomination. That is HIS CHOICE. Just like it is Sanders Supporters Choice If they Vote or Not Vote At All for POTUS.

Maybe Clinton Supporters need to remember that before continuing to throw Sanders supporters under the bus....as there is NO PATH TO VICTORY for Hillary Clinton in the General Election -- without a MAJORITY of Sanders supporters voting for her.

#FYI....

[joshcryer]

68. Sanders has integrity.

Unlike his faux supporters. If he loses, barring an unlikely superdelegate theft, he will bust his ass for Clinton, just like Clinton did for Obama.

You know who's throwing who under the bus? People carrying water for the GOP saying they could possibly win in Nov, because that's sure to GOTV. But it really really doesn't matter, they can't win.

[LovingA2andMI]

74. Sanders is a Candidate...

Who has voted strong with the Democrats in Congress for over 25 years. No one is question is integrity except....

John Lewis, Jim Clyburn, Jonathon Capehart, The CBC PAC and Anyone Else Throwing Bernie's Civil Rights History Under The Bus....or worst Hillary Clinton who questioned if Bernie Sanders align with Democratic Principles when he as voted with Democrats (and caucus with the Democrats) 99% of the time.

So maybe just maybe Bernie Supporters will have the integrity to stand up for his principles by voting or not voting in November. Either way that action is for the PRIVACY of the VOTING BOOTH or not if they decide to skip voting all together.

Threatening them is not going to get them to vote EVER for Hillary and Hillary cannot WIN ANYTHING in the GENERAL without them.

With that, we have other things to do. Talk among YOURSELF.

[rhett o rick]

131. What is stupid is not recognizing that the Big Money, the PTB, the Oligarchy or whatever you

want to call them want Clinton or Bush because they know they can control them. Now that Bush is gone, the Super-Wealthy want Clinton. They have made her and Bill extremely wealthy and they want their due. How can anyone think that HRC supports the 99%???

"The choice is stark, keep living under corporate rule under Hillary and watch things get worse, or go with Bernie and fight TPTB to regain our Representative Democracy!"

[JoeyT]

140. I actually think it's the other way around.

I've seen a *lot* of people that normally want nothing to do with politics that support Trump.

Add those on to the Republicans that would crawl over broken glass to vote against a Clinton, and I think history is going to be made, but not the way you think it is.

[cannabis_flower]

142. Rubio

is also an empty suit. Cruz and Kasich both scare me. Cruz because he is smart. Kasich because he seems more moderate ( but isn't).

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. And another false charge that this is a post in support of Trump

thanks, I needed to set my watch.

[joshcryer]

58. I never said that.

But it's a fact that you're yet again, in the second post in two days, parroting this Trump will win against Clinton meme.

Ooh, and all the insults you throw around would apply to Sanders if he stumps for Clinton!

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Ok let's widen this

she will lose against any republican. Win the battle, lose the war

Read the OP, the reasons are clearly laid out there.

She would have a better chance , perhaps would win, if she did not alienate so many voters already. (or rather her fans have) There is still time to correct, but I doubt that self awareness even exists.

[joshcryer]

61. PUMAS said this crap about Obama in 2008.

They were wrong then and are now. But thanks for the trove of posts to add to my list, this thread is a gold mine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Thanks for the excellent example of what happens

that said, I expect her to lose because of this particularly ugly campaign

Josh when you hear these things at the meat department. something is really wrong.

But I do not expect any self awareness. And with that, have an excellent day in the list, back to soft ignore with you. By your words you support the exact crap that will lose your party the election. And if you think there is a problem with Progressives. independents really have an issue with this crap No path to victory without both.

[joshcryer]

73. This is rich.

I've done nothing but support the true core of the Democratic party even as Sanders "supporters" clung to the white vote who vote against the party every election, and now I'm supposed to be concerned.

"Back" to soft ignore. Damn, I had it wrong about you from the start, I thought we had a mutual respect. I'm a fucking fool. That bit boxing me in with the racists should've been a red flag but I'm too stupid to judge character over anonymous message boards.

Good to know where I stand. And hey, this proposition will be tested in 9 months. I won't expect the 100s of Trump pumpers to admit their errors.

I fucking can't wait until nasty pieces of work like Greenwald start parroting Trumps shit. And it will happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. And I fucking can't wait for the dems

To listen to their base.

As to integrity. You are accusing me, not veiled, of being a Trump supporter. You are right. I misjudged your character.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. And I cannot take you seriously anymore

Now you are accusing me of voting for Nader not veiled either. There are rules about digging holes. In your case I suppose I should get you a backhoe.

By the way, you are proving the OP and the irony is, likely you do not understand why.

Though you are half right. I am an indie. You need my vote. These posts of yours will go a long way really. That said, who I vote for is my fucking business at this point. I owe you no explanations.

[joshcryer]

90. I don't care!

People voting Green, or CPUSA will have no effect! Just like the "stay at homers" won't have an effect.

My god I can't wait until this shit is over so we can go back to trashing the sitting Democratic president like old times rather than listening to this totally stupid crap about how said Democrat is going to lose, like in 2010, 2012, and 2014.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. You mean like 2010

A wave election

And 2014, another wave election.

And yes 2012...the dems did not precisely do that well in Congress

You broke my irony meter. And yes, you blamed the voters. Guess what Josh? That dog ain't gonna hunt no more.

I think that poor irony meter is beyond repair. But do keep digging. I can't say some folks are too good at learning from even very recent history.

[joshcryer]

96. Low voter turnout is due to Democrat bashing.

That's the point, which clearly went over your head.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Nope

Low voter turnout is for not giving voters a reason to show up. That dog ain't gonna hunt no more. Keep blaming the voters and not trying to find out why people don't show.

This point obviously will continue to go over your head second irony meter broken.

[joshcryer]

99. Tell that to John Bel Edwards.

Final kick from me, I would never box someone in with racists (without hard evidence), like you did me, I found it very hurtful and unexpected coming from you. You are forever tarnished in my eyes, all trust is gone. It is unlikely I'll even engage you from now on, yet another good DUer ruined by the insanity of the campaign bubble.

But we will win and you are simply wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. We will win... or perhaps not

and you have provided plenty of evidence to how tone deaf some democrats are

As to trust. You said I favor trump... nope. I voted for Nader. NOPE... and yes, you have been one attack after another, THAT IS WHY you are in that list.

Perhaps some self reflection is in order.

As to trust, I agree, I have none for you

[malokvale77]

101. Oh, get over yourself. nt

[LovingA2andMI]

62. This and This....

She will lose against any republican. Win the battle, lose the war...

and That...

She would have a better chance , perhaps would win, if she did not alienate so many voters already. (or rather her fans have) There is still time to correct, but I doubt that self awareness even exists.

Equals This...

[John Poet]

103. There is still time? I'm not so sure.

Presuming Hillary were to win the nomination, do I really want to REWARD the behavior of her and her supporters in this campaign, by supporting her in the General election?


Then there's that huge-elephant problem of her foreign policy being indistinguishable from that of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney...


I don't know if I can throw that much principle under the bus in the name of party loyalty.
I haven't left the party, but the party has been leaving me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. There might be time

but you are voicing exactly what some of my local labor leaders, for example, are saying

Their big thing is also trade...

The list of why the base feels betrayed is long...

[Warren Stupidity]

110. perhaps there is some grounds for legal action against du'ers who have this opinion?

[joshcryer]

112. Maybe if I get drunk.

I'll think up a reason after I'm celebrating on election night, maybe.

[Mbrow]

38. k&R Thank for posting

[longship]

40. Let me know, Nadine, if anybody alerts on this.

We'll beat their ass! I mean fellow Nadine fans.

Just kidding. Nevertheless, there are many here who have your back, as we have always. Please know that.

As always, my good friend.

[senz]

118. Your comment was alerted on.

It should have been 0-7.

On Mon Feb 22, 2016, 06:42 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Let me know, Nadine, if anybody alerts on this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1310157

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Hilarious. An OP all about bullies and here we have a 'joke' about beating someone's ass. You don't get to have it both ways. this is rude and insensitive even for a 'joke' please consider hiding. thanks

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 22, 2016, 07:13 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressions of solidarity and friendship among DUers. This alert seems petty and senseless.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is in bad taste but it doesn't rise to where it meets the criteria for hiding it.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Skittles will kick your ass for alerting on this.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. I am sorry, but this is pathethic

they alerted a joke.

[senz]

125. It's like trying to get through a swarm of wasps.

Sucks.

[longship]

126. No! Given what Nadine has endured here,

What is in bad taste is the bullying that she has endured, and triumphed over.

That is precisely why Nadine has so many fans who will happily stick up for her. The question is, why would anybody alert on a post which defends a DUer who has been so informative, helpful, and nonconfrontational.

Nadine is a huge asset to DU. And those who would malign her are not. That somebody would alert a post that supports her is indicative of some real problems here. I am happy that the alert was not supported.

Like many here, I am proud to stand with Nadine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Thanks my friend

[longship]

129. No problem. Some principles are worth sticking up for.

And some people too.

You happen to be both. I am sure many here would agree.

My best to you, my good friend.

[ebayfool]

41. Awesome OP, Nadin! I live in California too, so there is that.

Am also in the supposed 'Hillary' demographic, of which I don't understand. At all. With age is supposed to come wisdom, but all I'm seeing in my age range is fear. Of losing what? I raised two strong women that are appalled - appalled! - at the idea of voting for such a sexist reason as gender. And that seems to be the deciding factor for a lot of Hillary's supporters, no matter the window dressing they put on it. That's IMHO, so I'm not open to people trying to knock me down for it ... just laying that out there ahead of time.

2008 was bad. But I never felt pushed to the wall like this primary. Pushed to fury. And yes, I feel it toward the Clinton campaign. Hillary has set the tone, and it has run downhill and infested her supporters. What they do not give a damn about is they aren't convincing, converting or adding to the ranks. They are pushing them away, and you can bet that a goodly number of them as a result will NOT walk though broken glass, snow rain, fire, hell to vote for her. Pushing them out of the party and straight into that future party. The Labor party that the Democratic Party was supposed to be.

You push people to the wall, they'll screw right out from under you and go full-on battle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. This primary is bad

and I have asked women in that demographic and when all I get back is I am voting for her becuase she is a woman and not having her is a defeat for women's rights... at this point this is a fervently held talking point... but not a reason to vote.

And they get insulted when this is pointed out.

[democrank]

44. Spot on....thank you for this insightful post.

You`re right. they can`t win without us.

Our solidarity, our strength in numbers, is growing by the day.It`s powerful and uplifting. No matter what the Corporate Wing of our party does, they can`t take away this enthusiasm.

~PEACE~
~LOVE~
~BERNIE~

[Petrushka]

48. K & R

[zentrum]

50. You're right. Establishment Dems

…..are losing the war, even if she wins. Good way to put it.

In addition, there will be a non-stop war during her tenure if she wins. The Republicans are salivating over the endless hearings, subpoenas, impeachment drafts they plan to rain down on her. This will tie her up into reactive/denial mode for the duration. Just like they did to Bill during that scandal.

The Clintons have so much baggage—it's utterly predictable.

What's the use of her vaunted "experience" when she'll be answering investigations all day long?

I'll vote for her in November, as a DU poster said last night, not for her but as my vote against Rubio and company.

I do wonder if Biden and Warren would have run if the Clinton Machine wasn't there.

I think her victory for the nomination and for the election will be pyrrhic.

[MoonRiver]

52. Predictably, I hang with some Hillary supporters.

We're all pretty reserved about our political views outside the groups we move in. None of us look at this election as a "movement." For instance, we don't walk into restaurants with the goal of recruiting some Hillary supporters, or attacking Bernie supporters. Hillary is simply our choice for President. Yes, we are working hard to bring about her winning the gold, but not at the price of civility toward our progressive sisters and brothers.

I really do not understand the anger from Bernie supporters toward Hillary and her supporters. Bernie and Hillary are actually long term friends. After the election, I am sure they will go back to a normal and cordial relationship. And, when the general election rolls around, the loser will undoubtedly vote for the winner. We should all model our behavior after our candidates'.

Also, why on earth would I alert on this. You have every right to your opinion, much as I disagree with it.

[TCJ70]

55. Part of it is that she's literally...

...knee deep in what his campaign is completely against. Most of us think money in politics is a good thing. Hillary seems to not think that, or at least that she's above it, and continues to take big money from big donors. It represents a cognitive dissonance that is frustrating to view from the outside.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And predictably I had my identity as a minorty

and my life story as an immigrant, questioned by HRC supporters who post on this very site. So given my personal experience, I don't hate you. Hate is a strong word. But I am enjoying what your side is laying down. Try to win the GE without progressives. Really.

And I will blame your side of this war for it

By the way, I am not a supporter of Mr. Sanders. I am an observer of American politics, and this is ugly.

[MoonRiver]

64. Well, I wish you the best.

I feel we Democrats are all in this together. May not seem like it right now though.

[Arazi]

128. There are two sites that have been set up specifically to viciously attack BS supporters

who post on DU. Omaha Steve was "faking" his terminal illness, nadinbrezinski and Riderinthestorm were faking their identities, DU Jews were mocked as Money Goldbricks etc etc etc

That's the "personal" level. The macro level is the HRC campaign and her surrogates are stooping to real lows in attacking millennials, race baiting, and all out lying (that's not really Bernie Sanders in those 60s civil rights photos).

You may feel like we're all in this together but the HRC campaign and her surrogates here and in real life are salting the earth behind them.

[okasha]

132. Wander out of the Pullman car, did you?

[Dem2]

135. You have the more accurate perspective in this

I see the anger at Hillary's supporters and the posts stating the anger is actually towards Bernie and I think "projection".

[Duval]

53. Great post! nt

[PatrynXX]

57. whatever happens

I'm putting in Bernie's name on the ballot in november. So it won't be like I'm not voting. Some assume we aren't gonna vote. Well that would be rather anti Bernie since change starts at the local level. So we must make sure we get real Dems at local and state level. or putting whoever in office in November won't mean a thing.

[NurseJackie]

66. I can't believe ...

When the dissection comes the Democratic party will never admit that the politics of personal destruction cost them the election.

I can't believe you wrote that without laughing. (I laughed when I read it!)

many who were bullied by her supporters will stay home.

I've never actually met anyone who would "stay home" and not vote because they were "bullied" by anonymous posters on a political discussion forum. For what purpose... revenge? Frankly, I doubt that enough of these delicate individuals exist in numbers sufficient enough to make a bit of difference. And you know... I think that says more about the character person who stays home because their feelings were hurt (or because they were offended online) than it does about the candidate.

But come November, yup, I told you so. I cannot way to tell you that.

You cannot wait? Really? Does this mean that you'd prefer Hillary lose the general election so that you can have the personal satisfaction of being able to say "I told you so" ?? That's really something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Nope, I would prefer a democrat

but I cannot see a path to victory without the voters you guys are assiduously driving away.

Yes, it is that simple

[Betty Karlson]

69. K&R for a voice of reason and clarity.

Your words are a balm to souls in agony.

[Jezza]

70. ...per your analogy, Nyarlathotep runs on GOP ticket.

...appreciate your post. it epitomizes how a lot of people perceive the present condition.

Open minds stand against those ever hungry to take away our constitutional power and concentrate it against us. Fight the power.

Personally i lean Progressive/Liberal; and especially wary of anyone who wants power for the few; and i dont care which political base that comes from. ...whether that's Hillary, Bush, Rubio, Cruz or even Trump. i'd expect we'd all prefer leaders who focus on humans over institutions; and then economics, international politics, and certainly taxes, etc.
** who pays the piper?

I' recognize Bernie Sanders has a great ability to explain conditions and positions well... (have been watching a lot of his Senate oratory speeches avail on youtube.) to me, Hillary comes across hard-nosed and takes her condition forgranted as if she deserves to win the country (at all cost), rather than serve the country.

...very well said, liked your op.

[MichaelSoE]

102. Hey Jezza ... welcome to the DU

[2banon]

72. We disagree on some things in the past but I agree with your analysis on this

I'm in the very progressive S.F. Bay Area, and even though the state is no where close to being solid blue, the Party Establishment has a tight grip and control, their power center is Los Angeles of course.

And as it was in 2000 it's absolutely safe in this state to vote one's conscience. I have no illusions, but I will vote my interest, for the sake of the long game. Party establishment need to read the numbers at the end of the day, which I think they've largely ignored all these decades. At least it seems that judging by how they keep repeating their mistakes and excerise the same poor judgement cycle after cycle.

It is indeed a failed democracy, we were not able to hold on to it but maybe we might be able to create something out of the ashes of this failed system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Both the dems and R's in CA

Have ignored the growth of decline to state voters. This is going to catch up to both parties

[alarimer]

75. It's all about My Team vs. Your Team and the internet makes it much, much worse.

We go through this every time and I think the internet makes it much, much worse. We hang out in out own walled gardens. Hillary has her forum, as does Bernie. And they don't talk to each other- which pretty much ensures that the animosity will only grow. I don't know what to do, because we have seen what happens when you have a completely open forum like DI. It becomes a right-wing cesspool. Maybe get rid of the internet? It seems to be what it causing the extreme polarization.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Given that this has crossed into real life

I thnk it is more serious.

[DemocraticWing]

76. All we have to do is look at 1892. Or 1912. Or 1924.

Populists and Progressives went third party in every election. There's a reason that happened.

I don't expect it to be the last time either. Just as before, they will merge back into the two party system, but only after forcing some changes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Agreed and every time

Party power structures fight this tooth and nail

[R. P. McMurphy]

82. My vote only counts in the Primary.

Whoever the R candidate is will win Tennessee in the General so I have the luxury of being able to vote my conscience.

If Bernie doesn't get the nomination I'm sure he would ask us to vote for the Democratic nominee rather than writing-in his name. I won't waste my vote on a write-in but if I understand that if the Green party gets 5% of the vote that makes them eligible for federal funds.

Since 1988 I have voted for every Democrat on the ballot. Dems don't contest every race here. Have had to write-in a few names or not vote for an office but I've refused to vote R. The problem is that even when we've had control of the House, Senate and the Presidency; Democrats will not stick together to pass progressive legislation. If they can't advance our agenda when we're in power then why bother?

Someone is bound to raise the goblin of R Supreme Court appointees. To me that is a bogus spectre. As I understand, since the Roberts' court has broken with stare decisis all previous rulings rulings are now fair game. The only way we can ensure protection for the people is to representatives in office, in veto-proof majorities who actually work on behalf of the people. That will not happen until people realize who the common enemies are and revolt against the 1% and the wannabes. It's surely not going to happen as long as this two-party charade is allowed to continue.

If Bernie is the nominee I believe the Democratic party has one last chance to save it's soul. Otherwise the party WILL fracture because many of us are tired of being sold-out. If the Democrats won't even TRY to fight for me I'm sure there is someone out there who will.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. You have the same freedom as Californians

[leftcoastmountains]

83. As for the 2 party system,

it looks like it might be going the way of the dinosaur. But I tend to agree with you.
So I tell myself I'm glad I live in California. According to the article I'm posting
the Republican party here is becoming extinct. The Democratic party is just
maintaining. The party on the rise? "No party preference"

The newly released report shows the gap between Democratic and Republican voter registration is now more than 15 points. Republicans represent less than 28% of the state's electorate, a drop of almost three points since the start of the 2012 election cycle.
Democrats, while also shrinking in overall share, retain their plurality of voters at 43% of registration.
The shift to a less centralized political landscape in California is likely to accelerate, said McGhee, given the generational differences between younger and older voters

Madrid says that because so few states release voter data by political party as California does, these numbers may be the best reflection there is of the nation's increasingly polarized electorate. And the first casualty in California may be Republicans, he says, and soon. The size of the independent electorate could easily surpass GOP registration by the next presidential election.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-california-voter-registration-20160222-story.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Yup

And I am part of that 40 percent. The majority who refuses to state party preference.

[amborin]

87. They will not vote for her, period

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. That is the point. I know.

[Babel_17]

89. People are paying attention, hence the panic (nt)

[anotherproletariat]

91. This totally rings true for my experience, but in the opposite way...

As a college aged person, the loudest people I know are very pro-Bernie. But, I have had 5 friends in the past week come and tell me they were secretly for Hillary, but are afraid to say anything for fear of being bullied. Same thing with my social media friends...the Bernie people don't seem to mind making personal attacks on people who don't agree with them. It's so sad to see people becoming so divided over politics. Particularly because as Democrats we all essentially agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Well I suspect that is also going on

Because what is happening is that people are becoming too passionate.

The people who I am talking about are much older. So that provides an interesting data point to the soup.

Thanks by the way

[PatrickforO]

94. This was an awesome and well thought out post.

The politics of personal destruction. No one really believes anymore that the Democratic party gives a shit about them. Nobody. And certainly not Clinton.

Just a bunch of empty suits.

I hope you're not right, but sadly I know you are. I'll have to hold my nose big time to even think about voting for Clinton.

[GoneOffShore]

98. Hey Nadin - This is one of the best things I've read from you.

I almost always read your stuff because you are always interesting.

And you often prod those of us here on DU that need the most prodding.

It would seem that your motto could well be afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. Something that many people here forget in their political pursuits.

Bookmarking this post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. We try and trust me, the local Police Chief

does not like us. We ask questions...

[one_voice]

100. I find this OP to be very one sided.

I'm an undecided voter. I was an O'Malley supporter-and I've not decided who I will vote for in my primary.

The fighting and mud slinging isn't caused by one side. The bullies certainly aren't on one side.

I have a family member that's leaning Bernie and wants nothing to do with his supporters because of the way she was treated. She doesn't let bullies online or anywhere else make her decisions for her.

This:

many who were bullied by her supporters will stay home

What about Hillary supporters that were bullied by Bernie people? I was. That's not going to keep me home in November. If he's the nominee, he gets my vote. I'm not punishing people cuz my feelings may or may not have been hurt by someone.

I would never want to rub in the faces of Democrats that a Republican won--why would someone want to rub salt into a wound? It's cruel and mean. Many of those people will have worked their asses off to get a Democrat elected. I don't understand that...

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Of course you do

I am not surprised.

[zappaman]

111. Great post.

[senz]

115. I am surprised you identify as "undecided" since your comments

are invariably pro-Hillary and anti-Bernie.

I am positive you are a Hillary supporter but cannot understand why you want to deny it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Well somebody told me here yesterday that of course I had to be a Bernie supporter

you see, I write into social justice and happen to read into mass incarceration. I just do this at this point



But that poster, yup, I am all but surprised... he or she is a HRC supporter. I guess this is one of the many bernie supporters who now badger bernie supporters... they know who they are.

[senz]

120. Sorry! I meant that for "one voice."

Phooey. I wouldn't say that to you, nadin. (insert "mea culpa" smilie)

But I'm glad you realized my mistake.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. I just agreed with you

he is in the tank

:-J

[one_voice]

119. come again?

one_voice (17,832 posts)

Bernie Sanders is on the telly..
Exposing the Walton family and telling the truth about Walmart and how shitty they treat their employees.

I'm glad someone is speaking about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511123324

one_voice (17,832 posts)
6. I agree with a lot of what he says..

I like a lot of what Hillary says. There aren't too many Democrats that could run that I'd not like. There are some for sure..but not many. Especially given what's on the side. YIKES!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511123324#post6

one_voice (17,832 posts)

Bernie Sanders Forces Donald Trump To Flip-Flop On Raising Wages

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251954735

one_voice (17,832 posts)

Here's Why Bernie Sanders' Revolutionary New Plan Is a Feminist Victory

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026701759

If you want more just let me know.

The next time you wanna question someone make damn sure you know what you're talking about. **I** know what I am, thank you very much.

If you're expecting me to shit all over ANY of our candidates then you've come knocking at the wrong door.

I will always give my honest opinion of what I read. Sorry it doesn't fit your little box.

[senz]

122. Okay, good job.

I had you pegged as a Hill fan.

You deserve an A+ for self-defense and I didn't mean to put you to so much trouble.

Apologies ... I think...

[one_voice]

124. I was originally an O'Malley supporter..

but have posted positive things for all of our candidates.

I won't get in the middle of the 'wars' but I will point out some things. When people comment on Hillary's hair, I will say something. If someone comments that Bernie's suit is wrinkled, that's silly.

I don't have any interest in Hillary being blamed for things that took place during Bill's administration, I explained why in a post, I will try and find. Advanced search is acting wonky. I don't have any issues with Bernie calling himself a socialist.

I have concerns with both our candidates, but I have no worries about voting for either. That's my position.

I live in a blue state. So there's that..

[On the Road]

108. If Hillary Does Indeed Win the Primaries,

the general election depends largely on how she chooses to present herself and how successfully. I just hope it is the set of issues and qualities that matter with the voters.

[malokvale77]

109. Good OP nadin.

And yes, a game change will happen. Perhaps sooner rather than later.

People are hurting beyond the capacity to withstand much more.

[rosesaylavee]

113. K&R

Great post. Thank you!

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. You welcome

[Arazi]

130. I'm late to the party but kick and rec! Good job eom

[PeterGM]

136. This is exactly how Clinton wins...

So I assembled a list of the Presidents since 1944 and looked at what % of the eligible voters did they win when they won the presidency... This is what I found From LOWEST to HIGHEST:

LOWEST - (D) Bill Clinton 1992 - 23.7 % of eligible votes.
(R) George W. Bush 2000 - 24.09 % of eligible votes.
(D) Bill Clinton 1996 - 24.1 % of eligible votes.
(D) Harry Truman 1948 - 25.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Richard Nixon 1968 - 26.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Ronald Reagan 1980 - 26.82 % of eligible votes.
(D) Jimmy Carter 1976 - 26.85 % of eligible votes.
(R) George H. W. Bush 1988 - 26.86 % of eligible votes.
(D) Barack Obama 2012 - 28.05 % of eligible votes.
(R) George W. Bush 2004 - 28.2 % of eligible votes.
(D) Franklin D. Roosevelt 1944 - 29.96 % of eligible votes.
(D) Barack Obama 2008 - 30.2 % of eligible votes.
(D) John F. Kennedy 1960 - 31.2 % of eligible votes.
(R) Ronald Reagan 1984 - 31.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Richard Nixon 1972 - 33.4 % of eligible votes.
(R) Dwight D. Eisenhower 1952 - 34 % of eligible votes.
(R) Dwight D. Eisenhower 1956 - 34 % of eligible votes.
HIGHEST (D) Lyndon B. Johnson 1964 - 37.5 % of eligible votes.

So when you hear about voter turnout, it favors republicans when it's a re-election year, but democrats when it's first time elections.... however it seems that Hillary Clinton is right on track to smash her husband's record for winning with the lowest voter turnout in modern U.S. history... Just look at the low turnout in the Democratic primaries... Smear campaigns are designed to suppress voter turnout and demoralize the opposition's supporters.

[Hiraeth]

137. "Clinton is likely going to win the battle, but badly lose the war." K&R

I am seeing the same scenario playing out where I live, opposite side of the continent in a red, red county. Interesting that.

[jalan48]

138. Thank you for the post.

This election really reminds me of 1968. Back then the Democratic Party's hypocrisy was laid bare for all to see. Today the establishment wing of the Party is clinging to a failed vision for the future of America. Bill Clinton's version of 'Trickle-down' hasn't worked and isn't going to work in the future. Most of us have moved past arguing about it. If Hillary or a Republican wins get ready for years of turmoil in the streets. It's inevitable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. I agree

I have also compared it to '68. And dang I was not even conscious or in the country. Though my first memory is the lunar landing

[jalan48]

160. I was conscious, in a way :)

I do remember the protests and riots in Seattle where I was living at the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. Literally my brother (RIP) was graduating

and we went to the sports center. It was the night of the lunar landing. So my dad (RIP as well) took me outside, where they had a bank of four televisions. It was mostly men (who were bored with the ceremony) and kids, watching the landing. I was three, and on my dad's shoulders.

[jalan48]

162. That's a great memory. The times were more charged then or magical i think.

The oligarch's have taken all the magic out of the system for the average person I believe. If people didn't have to constantly worry so much about health care or simply keeping a roof over their heads there would be more freedom to just enjoy every day. Nothing will ever be perfect but it's like our lives have become part of an assembly line, we're disposable if we fall too far behind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. I know and with things like Climate change

it will only get far worst

[jalan48]

164. Yep-we have to keep fighting the good fight.

[davidthegnome]

141. I've never seen such an ugly primary.

In 2008, there was a lot of mud flinging here, we all expected it, a lot of us (myself included) engaged in it. Not just here either, but I remember being mocked at my state convention because I was a young voter - and the youth in America, was, according to some Clinton supporters... ignorant, uneducated, didn't know "nothin' 'bout' 'nothin'". It took some pretty long arguments to convince people that I wasn't an idiot, as, apparently, those pre-conceived notions were very hard to shake. Young does not = stupid, or uninformed.

This though... this is different. I believe there is a very real level of hate on the rise, here at DU, which is pretty damned sad. Whichever candidate we want (I'm a Bernie supporter - all the way)... we are democrats. We have a lot of common goals, I think that most of us (third way dems aside) want the same sort of progressive legislation.

I've been coming here every day lately, trying to educate myself as much as I can about the candidates, as well as to support my own. I think that places like DU are pretty damned great for grass roots movements, for internal debate and dialogue, for organizing our GOTV efforts. It is getting difficult though (and I am a pretty easy going kind of person) to avoid getting angry about some of the stuff I see posted here every day. It's not all Clinton supporters either. The other day I saw some crap from a Bernie supporter that made me cringe.

I said yesterday - and I'll say again today... I do not think there are bad people here at DU. I think there are people who are fiercely passionate and motivated by their beliefs. Just the kind of people I prefer to engage with, whether we're agreeing or arguing.

There is no common racism, sexism, or any other kind of despicable "ism" that is common to either Clinton or Sanders supporters. We are all individuals, who identify with our candidates for our own reasons. It's one thing for us to trade snark, to get upset in a moment of heated debate... but some of the very personal, very destructive posts I've seen here lately (and even one in particular that I made myself) just aren't right.

I'm going to try to take some deep breaths and chill. I love DU, I love you guys - and that's regardless of which candidate you support. I'll back my own, I'll argue with you, trade snark, we can mock the hell out of each other... but damn, let's not make it so personal that it comes to hate. It's one thing to have a passionate debate, it's something else entirely when people start trying to personally rip each other to shreds - even people who have been friends here for years.

[AlbertCat]

143. Now Bernie Supporters come here. We need to have this talk.

Stop talking to me like I'm a bad teenager.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. I meant no ill

And as I said, if you are in a deep blue or red state, your vote will change nothing. That is the rank truth. So most (since the country has what swing states?) can vote however they want to, and can be more strategic if they chose. Those in purple states though, really don't have that luxury.

That is baked into the cake and I do not foresee anytime in my lifetime when the electoral college and winner take all go away. It would be a nice surprise, but run off voting for example, will break up both major parties into their component parts. That is precisely why they will not vote themselves out of existence.

[AlbertCat]

151. I meant no ill

Oh I know that.

Your Op ED is really not aimed at me. I agree with you pretty much.

It's just all the "lecturing" that goes on here. ugh!

[closeupready]

144. I don't agree with some of this, but most of it, yes. Long-term.

Someone else here stated that Bernie is "our last chance!" - no, he is a human portent of coming change. K&R

[Cassiopeia]

147. FL, OH, and VA.

She loses those state in the GE and we have Trump. She will lose those three as well.

Hillary is not a risk we can afford.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. I agree with you.

I don't expect her to win the GE.

[Zorra]

148. Very well said, nadin, thank you. nt

[Amimnoch]

153. Don't give up yet! It really is still very early.

I say this from across the aisle.

If I might offer a bit of advice though: We're in Primary season, but it's still early. Bernie has yet to release a list of Senators and Representatives in the House and Senate primary fights to back himself.

Expand this movement! I've said myself that there's only one reason I'm not feeling the Bern... There's no network of support to make the revolution happen. If Bernie could just get a few of the primary challengers out there to incumbent Senators who are supporting Hillary, and a dozen of so primary challenges to incumbent Representatives who are supporting Hillary.. start forming a coalition for congress... His message WILL start to resonate so much more loudly.

Right now he doesn't have any of his co-workers in the Senate endorsing him, and of the entire house of Representatives only 3. Expand this movement and show people that it isn't just "unicorns and rainbows".

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. You are addressing the wrong person

I just observe. In fact, after I posted a state of the race for the Dems, I gotta do the. Rs.

Something about non partisan.

But I posted here what I have seen and heard. This is one nasty race and yes, in my opinion HRC will lose, and part of the reason is the tone the campaign has already taken.

[ChiciB1]

156. Thanks For This Post... I HAVE A HUGE Problem Because

I live in FLORIDA! I HAVE to remain a DEMOCRAT through the Primaries and I hate the Closed Primary system. I have already VOWED to leave The Democratic Party! My parents and my in-laws and almost ALL of my relatives have been Democrats all their lives. I too have been one and encouraged my children to join the Party.

And I know Bernie Sanders himself would tell his supporters to vote for Hillary if he's not the nominee, and I belong to an organization where we HAD to pledge to vote for her IF Bernie isn't the nominee. BUT, as each day goes by and I keep seeing what I'm seeing I feel such extreme DISGUST by what is going on.

Maybe Hillary supporters REALLY DON'T see what's happening and they truly believe she's "ALL THAT!" But it's hard for me to understand that they AREN'T AWARE of what our current DEMOCRATIC PARTY is doing! Just for the sake of making a clear point I'm going to liken what they're doing to Bernie Sanders is GANG RAPE! I know that's not the correct phrase, but it makes m,y point!

The Democratic Party I joined so many, many years ago WOULD NEVER have done what being done now. I'm not sure WHEN they made the CHOICE, but I DO BELIEVE they DID do it, but it's simple to see. MAKE SURE that Bernie Sanders won't get elected. It may have started with make sure that no other person but Hillary becomes the nominee and it's NOT Bernie himself. I think they would have done it to JOE BLOW if that was the person.

But I do know that the Democratic Party I joined and knew for so many years, always looked forward and thought WE COULD DO BETTER! That we wanted to IMPROVE as we went along. BUT this is no longer the case!

It's basically, WE'LL FIX THIS and make what we have better than it is! Quite frankly, THIS IS WHAT they've been selling for much too long and NOTHING is getting fixed. Ok, there's ACA, but even that seems to be showing signs of the influence Big Pharma & The Insurance Industry has been able to screw up. I have Medicare through a Retiree Plan from the Union my husband belonged to. I have had to pay the Medicare Premium, but THIS YEAR the same plan I had last years is now going to cost and extra $42.50 a month, plus Medicare. And "we the people" DON'T get a COLA!

I guess this is HOW we FIX things now!

I'm going to quit now because I'm so completely upset because for the life of me... I Just Don't Understand why this insanity continues!

We've been on the wrong path for WAY, WAY TOO LONG and it IS TIME TO WAKE UP! I saw the handwriting on the wall a long time ago, BUT I never thought My Democratic Party would go this far. You can disagree, but for me... I'm SICK of War, Sick of Deals, Sick of the Money, Sick of the Influence of Money, Sick of Fighting Wrongs and getting kicked in the teeth. And now I can add another Sickness... I'm Sick of Betrayal!

For all the screaming so many HERE and all over the country have done, when push comes to pull... in the end there are still far too many people who WILL COMPROMISE and stick with THE STATUS QUO!

[ChiciB1]

157. SORRY, Forgot To Add MSM & Especially MSNBC Who Also

betrayed me for a while! If all this OKAY with so many here... have at it! Unfortunately, the rest of us will have to live with the consequences!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. Yeah you are in one of those states where voting against the R will be the option

and given current trends on voter turnout, the Rs will win just on that. It is called an enthusiasm gap

I think Bernie would help correct that in the GE, or have better odds. HRC, nope not really.

[Jon Ace]

166. K&R n/t