2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumFor those saying you won't vote for the Democratic nominee
Just remember, that's another vote that goes for Donald Trump or Marco Rubio, who is against abortion in any matter, wants to overturn gay marriage, and wants to get involved in pretty much any international conflict he can.
I sure as heck would be disappointed if Hillary lost, but whether you support Hillary or Bernie, a vote against or a non-vote for our nominee is another step closer to turning America over to a potential nightmare situation.
At the end of the day, whether it's Bernie or Hillary, we must stand together!!
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
kstewart33
(6,552 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)for weeks now. The DNC is making it clear that they are willing to loose the election by bringing in someone else at the last minute if it looks like Bernie is going to take it.
Enough of that pompous BS 
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Vote2016
(1,198 posts)and in-bed with Wall Street.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)
Tarc
(10,597 posts)There is no threat of a last minute entrant to the race this is histrionics of Camp Sanders pulling every last stop they can.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The DLC became synonymous with DINO so it went underground but people are kidding themselves if they really think it's gone. It was made up of the LEADERS of the party after all.
They believe Liberals are the enemy even more that the Republicans. (Mainly because Liberals aren't in it for the money so they can't be bought.)
They are perfectly content with a role as an opposition party that doesn't REALLY oppose a Republican agenda.
senz
(11,945 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)The lesser of two evils is still evil.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Believe a vote FOR Hillary in the primaries is a vote for the eventual GOP nominee.
Maybe take a step back and consider just how much you support women's reproductive rights.
Would argue against that. You are missing the point.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)If the Dems choose Hillary they'll lose the GE...
So..
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Dems? They? They'll lose?
So - what are you?
I mean, if I believed as you, I would have written: "If we (the Democratic Party) choose Hillary, we are going to lose the General Election."
Again - what are you?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)And that's the opinion of one who has voted Democratic her entire adult life -- which means I started back in the pre-DLC, pre-Third Way days when being a Democrat actually meant something.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)I just saw this.
I get a lot of responses and don't alway see them all.
At any rate, I'm not a "Dem". I'm a human voter. I have repeatedly voted for Democratic candidates, and never ever Republicans. I have donated to Dems as well. My family in fact has worked with and for the Clintons in Arkansas (where I'm from).
But I don't call a party "we".
It's not me.
And frankly, Hillary stands for a lot of crap that I don't agree with... so if I have to saw "we" with Hillary for you to consider me a Democrat then I'm not one by your definition.
Which is fine by me.
Blind loyal to a brand isn't my thing... it could be yours, and that's ok, but it's not mine.
sammythecat
(3,594 posts)Just say it, whatever it is.
I see nothing wrong with the post. I agree with it.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)That is the problem folks... And it ain't goin away!
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Right now as a Bernie supporter I am not involved in a dems vs republicans battle. I am involved in the soul and direction of our party against the establishment. I am involved in returning to the agenda set by FDR and not into the one the establishment sold themselves. I am not fighting the republicans yet, except in the sense that I am fighting for a candidate who doesn't have the same donors as top republicans. I am not fighting the republicans yet, I am fighting those who want to be just a little left of the republicans but close enough to the center to be cozy with their corporate masters. I am fighting for America, you can fight for the party, but I sure as hell wish they would fight for me as hard as they fight for their corporate donors. That's the current battle and the current battle is the one many "democrats" do not have the stomach to fight. Complacency and acceptance of wrong is what got us here and it sure isn't going to fix it. After being insulted by a former president who called me and my fellow Americans "tea party of the left" You will be hard pressed to convince me their way is the best way.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)uterus. Maybe they've had it too easy with their iPhones and their laptops, that the next logical extension is to support the Free Stuff. Maybe it's time for them to stand up for something really, really hard. Nobody ever achieved any rights from the far side of a keyboard. If Hillary was all the evil Bernie's supporters portray her to be, she could just co-op his FREE STUFF message. I get it. It's hard to go against someone who promising FREE STUFF. It takes guts to not give in to the FREE STUFF mantra.
Impedimentus
(898 posts)FREE Republic cesspool?
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)Well guess what. I'm not a right-winger, and I came up with my FREE STUFF mantra all by myself and I will keep repeating it. Imagine that.
Maybe it harkens back to my high school days when the kids who gave out candy and stuff running for student government, seemed to get more votes than those who didn't get any Candy or other stuff courtesy of their parents.
Maybe it harkens back to my time raising 3 kids who were more willing to do their chores if I paid them, but I didn't, because it was their house too, and they needed to learn that the house didn't get cleaned by fairy's who came out during the night while we slept.
Maybe, just maybe my 32 years as an Accountant, allows me to understand balance sheets enough to realize that this nation is broke, and we need to find a way to shore up the entitlement plans we currently have before asking a GOP dominated congress to approve another one.
Maybe my 42 years as a Political Junkie dating back to the time I was on the Debating Team in Junior High school convinced me that when a GOP lead obtructionist congress say that they are never going to agree to an increase in taxes, I believe them.
Maybe, when a GOP lead obstructionist congress says that they are going to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act but they never offer up a plan for the Replacement part after 6 years, I don't believe them.
Maybe when a GOP lead obstructionist congress makes up bullshit that our Christian black president is a Muslim and a third of the their party believes it, I somehow know that there is no way in hell that they are going to vote for self-described Democratic Socialist as President of the United States. After all, it's THEIR COUNTRY remember, and I believe them.
Maybe when Hillary Clinton says that she knows how to work with people in Congress and can reach across the aisle to get things done, that she wants to build on the progress that we've already made as a party, and strengthen the Affordable Care Act, I believe her.
No one on this board has to believe anything that I've said, but than again that's the beauty of DU. You don't have to.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)unfortunately your free stuff mantra is right wing nonsense. Right now the "free stuff" is going to the military/the military industrial complex/corporations. It's time that the USA invests in it's people...fucking free stuff meme is bullshit.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and it will drive people away from the candidate you care for.
In most states, whatever, but in swing states... you might be responsible (among many other fans here,) for swinging the election.
Yes, I intend to blame you for this idiocy.
Of course NO WE CAN'T is so damn inspiring... 
Impedimentus
(898 posts)You seem really into the religious business and also appear to have no understanding of corporate welfare. Trump might say "You're fired!" after reading your resume and I hate to quote Trump, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Too much right wing lingo scattered throughout your post to not raise a few red (but not socialist) flags.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)condescending comment regarding my understanding corporate welfare. I figured your must have confused my post with someone else's. But just in case you didn't. Let me just say, don't presume things about me that you know nothing about and for which you have no basis to assume; and I won't presume you to be the fool you sound like when you do.
Impedimentus
(898 posts)It's OK, you don't need to be implicit. I can only be insulted by someone I respect.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)is what keeps me up at night. God only knows the *pragmatic* give-aways that lie head, should she win the Primary then GE. Wall Street and the MIC are salivating at the prospect, and we all know how well they've served the working poor and middle class these past few decades.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Perhaps you should give them a try, considering you believe the past few decades, under Republicans and Corporate Democrats, have been good to the working poor and middle class.
Reality. Try it. It only bites a little.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)the LA inner city. As the 5th of 9 children born to parents with just a high school education, but who insisted that their kids were going to go to college. Both my parents had two jobs, my dad two full-time jobs Monday through Friday. My mother a full time job, Monday through Friday in a sweatbox industrial laundrymat across the street from our house, and cleaned houses for wealthy people in Beverly Hills on Saturday. We rested on Sunday. BTW, all 9 of their kids went to college, through a variety of means, and everyone of them paid off their own debt. My family was poorer than a church mouse, as the saying goes, so don't lecture me. Our lives were far from perfect, but we made it because of the values our parents instilled in us; primarily that the world didn't owe us anything because we were born. If we wanted something in life, we needed to work for it.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)(A)
9/28/2015
Hillary Clinton on Facebook:
"Republicans have no problem promising tax breaks and sweetheart deals to their corporate friends, but when Democrats fight to make sure all Americans have access to quality, affordable health care, early childhood education and job training, that's giving away 'free stuff'?!' Talk about backwards."
VS
(B)
2/18/2016
Hillary Clinton speech about Bernie Sanders:
"I'm not just making speeches and not just promising free this and free that and free everything,"
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/22/1489133/-Hillary-Clinton-
affordable health care -- Bernie Sanders proposes single payer.
early childhood education -- Bernie Sanders supports that as well as parental leave paid by taxpayers (a very small cost to each taxpayer)
job training -- free tuition at state schools, community colleges, colleges and universities is one of Bernie's most popular proposals
So which side is Hillary on?
People want free tuition at state schools and single payer healthcare SO THAT THEY CAN WORK AND DO THEIR CHORES AND CONTRIBUTE.
It's not like we want free candy.
Hillary is far too conservative. And trust me, she will sign the TPP and give away the jobs that remain here to low-wage workers on the Pacific rim if she is elected -- just like her husband gave away jobs to Canada and Mexico by signing NAFTA.
Hillary is not to be trusted.
Kall
(615 posts)maybe the young people who you think just want "free stuff" are tired of listening to a generation of people who grew up with and benefited from strong unions, no free trade with slave wage countries, no globalization, and where a decent education was a reasonable ticket to a full-time job with benefits and job security (as opposed to part-time and contract work in the name of being "business-friendly"
lecture them about how they know how the world works, now that the ladder has been yanked away before the young people who want "free stuff" were allowed to climb it.
tommcc99
(48 posts)What the hell are you talking about. College used to be free. Just because your candidate doesnt think its a good idea doesn't mean it isn't.
1. I'm 63 and not a kid and a Veteran if it makes a difference
2. I don't think kids have it easy today. I think they are looking at a pretty bleak future.
3. I was active here in Nevada during the caucus (which was a complete FUBAR - thanks for nothing Democratic party of Nevada) and I have watched Bernies young supporters phone bank, knock on doors, go to meetings, get involved in the process and work long and hard for their candidate. THEY WERENT DOING THAT FROM BEHIND A KEYBOARD. What was especially discouraging was to see how much effort they put into it and how little the Democratic establishment put into getting the caucus managed properly. In representing the PEOPLE.
4. I disagree with you 100%. You have been accused of espousing right wing propaganda because you are.
5. Oh, I've been a CFO too. Started as a CPA. So fuck being an accountant as any kind of recommendation as to why you would understand how an economic stimulus would work. Different ballpark.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)People are sick of old guard, back room dealing, middle of the road, sellouts.
840high
(17,196 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Be as condescending and insulting as possible because THAT will insure they vote for HRC. They will see the folly of their ways and just BEG to be allowed to vote for her while basking in your glorious wisdom.
840high
(17,196 posts)Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #37)
CobaltBlue This message was self-deleted by its author.
senz
(11,945 posts)The old Republican meme?
And you're pitting FREE STUFF against uteri? Is that the choice?
Well since I already have a uterus, guess I'll have to vote FREE STUFF. 
Andy823
(11,555 posts)"Many" are not really Democrats, they just pretend to be so they can come here and stir things up. They seem to be using the old "scorched earth" scenario this week. I am pretty sure that the real Democrats here on DU will come together after the nomination and stand behind the nominee, no matter which one that may be. What about you, will stand behind whoever wins the nomination?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)As one DUer noted: the Latino, Female and Black Vote will be climbing over glass, through hell, in gasoline soaked drawers to vote against trump (or cruz, or Rubio). Okay, I added the "though hell in gas soaked drawers ... But the question remains ... will working class whites, and (particularly) Sanders supporters.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)
Beartracks
(14,432 posts)My big fear is that, if she's our nominee, she'll have hardly any crossover appeal, too many Dems will go "meh" and stay home, AND most Republicans will crawl through broken glass and hot coals to make sure that Hillary. Is. Not. Elected., even if they have to hold their noses and vote for Trump or whichever other yahoo their party puts on the ballot.
BUT... if Republicans crawled over hot coals with gasoline-soaked drawers.... 
======================
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)what we can control ... promoting Democrats and the left being willing to vote against republicans; rather than, blowing ourselves up because not-{insert candidate} tantrums.
Beartracks
(14,432 posts)No time for tantrums. No matter what people think of the respective "other" Democratic candidate, it's pretty obvious ANY Republican would be far worse for the country.
=================
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Bruising primary battles ... because our supporters and campaigns lack "big picture" discipline.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)my vote matters too and my vote is going toward the candidate who recognizes that income inequality is at the root of our problems...call me a racist or whatever you want but under no circumstances will I vote for the candidate of wall street and division. Fuck it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Depaysement
(1,835 posts)I wouldn't count on it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as I get lectured by this same group about voting against my own interests.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)That's a shame. You shouldn't be lectured for voting your own interest. I suspect your interest is identity based and not class based and that's understandable. It would be great to have your vote but Bernie Sanders shouldn't have expected it.
I think Bernie has campaigned poorly in the black community. His campaign people don't get it.
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)over it, or they will sit this one out. It's not a big deal either way. Most democrats will vote for the democratic nominee. I think it's just a way to vent and make threats to upset the winning side. I don't put any stock into it.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Like This Primary Has Been Like Other Primaries. If it makes you feel better -- keep repeating that. 
PonyUp
(1,680 posts)We are such a small group.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,315 posts) 
Orrex
(66,771 posts)Go ahead and help give the Whitehouse to Republicans, and give the SCOTUS to them for the next 40 years or so.
How do you think Sanders will vote if he's not on the ballot? Do you think he'll pout and whine and cry that Clinton is no different from Republicans? Or do you think that he understands how the world works even if his supporters don't seem to get it?
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(133,640 posts)PonyUp
(1,680 posts)840high
(17,196 posts) Orrex
(66,771 posts)I noted correctly that withholding one's vote, and thereby easing the way to a Republican presidency, is a simplistic and empty statement. That is, the statement is simplistic and the statement is empty, and that's true whether one supports Clinton or O'Malley or Sanders.
If you conclude that such a statement makes you simple-minded or empty-headed, then that's on you. But it's dishonest of you to claim that I made any accusation to that end.
sarge43
(29,173 posts)Why would the DNC or Hillary Clinton want the vote of a proto lefty teabagger who wants free stuff and fluffy unicorns?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in the general election? (And you should too)
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Young people, veterans, working class whites, many Latinos. Who needs us?
DavidDvorkin
(20,515 posts)HillDawg
(198 posts)DavidDvorkin
(20,515 posts)Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)If she's the nominee it's 1984 all over again. We won't even need to vote, it will be over by 7:00 pm PST November 8th 2016. Get ready for President Trump
SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)I will vote for her, but I live in California. Probably about a 90% chance the Democrat will win this state anyways.
But like the above post stated, it will be ugly, although I think Rubio will be the winner, not Trump.
zappaman
(20,627 posts)
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)farleftlib
(2,125 posts)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The vast majority of us are not in swing states.
Clinton can not win my state. Our 15 electoral votes will be going to the Republican, even if he is Satan incarnate.
As a result, your obsessive concern over my meaningless vote and the threats you hurl about it are not going to do much good.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)We know, you're all perfect, you won't vote for the oligarch, etc, etc.
All the supporters are third way shills, etc.
We heard it in 2010, 2012, 2014. We keep hearing it, over and over.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)I'm thinking this year has tipped me. We'll see.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Voters Stayed Home and Democrats Lost The House.
2012 Democrats lost more seats in the House and barely held the Senate.
2014 Democrats Lost The Senate along with the House.
Do you see a pattern here or are you having a see no evil, speak no evil, heard no evil moment in time? 
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)People don't vote if their choices are shit on repeatedly. If they don't care. And voter suppression is how they win.
Why would I vote if all my friends said it didn't matter?
And don't tell me the solution is to run more liberal candidates. We lost progressives in those elections.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)You say all of the candidates that lost in 2010, 2012, 2014 were "Liberal" right?
So the answer is to run Democratic/Republican Lite Candidates- Correct?
Are you Third Way? Yes or No --- no further explanation required. YES or NO?
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)I am not third way. NO, NO, NO.
And I didn't say all the candidates were liberal. Don't put words in my mouth.
A lot of good progressives were lost. Anyone that repealed DADT and passed ACA is progressive.
But anyway, I'm just saying, I rather be in bash the democrats in office mode than bash the democrats before they even win garbage.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Tell the Truth About Third Way "Democrats" Like Hillary Clinton Who Take Donations and Tap Dance to Wall Street....before They Win...
A Primary Election. Now a General Election...That's A WHOLE other Thing...
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)held my nose and voted for the various Vichy Dems on the ballot.
We lost every time. So you logic has been tested and found flawed.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)My state stayed blue in 2010, by a very slim margin, thanks to people like me not calling Democrats no better. I even voted for a third wayer, a guy who, you know, broke open the surveillance state, and has environmental credentials that are unparalleled, taking Colorado toward renewables better than any candidate before. Mark Udall's loss to Cory Gardner was shameful. And why? Because he had integrity and came out against assault rifles, right after Sandy Hook. He took a stand and where did it get him? A lying anti-choice piece of crap took his seat. And because 2014 had the lowest turnout since WWII.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)running left on a 50 state strategy, since abandoned by the DNC. Dean later moved right and became a lobbyist. Obama was the last beneficiary of that strategy, running Left in 2008, then right after he was elected. This disillusioned the voters in 2010, and they have not turned out since. If HRC is the nominee in 2016, they will stay home again.
Oh, and Obama did win in 2012, but only after he ran left again on gay rights and everyone hated Romney. But, he had zero coattails, and we lost even more seats in congress.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Dean famously said that he wanted to attract guys driving around with the confederate flag.
Most people who won in in 2010 and 2012 were the ones who embraced Obama. The people who lost ran against him, going so far as to running against the ACA itself. Bel John Edwards, an anti-choice guy, ran and won, and he signed into law ACA expansion that literally saved lives. Do I agree with Bel John Edwards on everything? No. And I didn't agree with Dean over his confederate flag flap at the time.
But you're not electing a pro-choice person in Louisiana. It was then down to an anti-choice person that wouldn't expand the ACA there or one that would. It's a nobrainer. Lives literally saved. This sort of nuance doesn't even exist on DU anymore. People can't disagree with someone yet still support them. I disagree with Sanders on his support of the drone program (and to an extent his attitude on the F35 basing; but I understand where he's coming from), that doesn't mean I magically don't support him. A lot of his supporters disagree with him on Israel (I happen to agree with his stance on Israel), that doesn't mean he goes under the bus.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Why, exactly, are you working so hard to alienate the voters you need to win?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)even if the dems should nominate the King of DarknessLord Chtullu ticket.
It is a very small number of state where this matters, and if they keep alienating voters with comments such as free stuff... what can I say?
And they will blame the voters, not the politics of personal destruction that have been deployed.
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I don't stand together with people who condone corporate political financing.
I don't stand together with people who condone the institutional racism of the private prison industry.
I don't stand together with people who condone the TPP.
I don't stand together with people who foment racial discord to prop up their candidate.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)
Persondem
(2,101 posts)of would be immigrants to continuing their miserable third world lives.
Apparently you're also okay with lying about who supports TPP and who doesn't. Also just what sections of the TPP do you not approve of? The text has been out for months so please cite chapter and verse.
And you also forgot that your guy Bernie voted to fund most of those wars. Isn't that condoning?
Hypocrite much? Your high horse is more like a miniature pony.
Response to Persondem (Reply #34)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Kall
(615 posts)after spending years selling it as the "gold standard", because she finally said right before the Democratic primary that it doesn't meet her new standards "as it currently stands", then there's not much we can do to help you your lack of healthy skepticism based on observation of Hillary's past behaviour, free trade support, and changing of positions on a dime according to political convenience. The minute this primary is over, her position is going to revert back to her original one, which aligns with her real beliefs as observed over time based on her support of past free trade agreements with countries with terrible labor standards.
Attacking Bernie Sanders for not cutting off money to soldiers in a war zone, regardless of how they got there, is really something. The Clinton campaign would be proud of you.
Mike__M
(1,052 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:07 AM - Edit history (1)
with people who advocate for sending children to their deaths to send a message to the parents.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511311927
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)Not Found
The requested URL /12511311927. was not found on this server.
senz
(11,945 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Mike__M
(1,052 posts)John Poet
(2,510 posts)"is another step closer to turning America over to a potential nightmare situation"---
mostly because she'll probably lose the general election--
and on the off-chance she could pull something off,
on foreign policy she's no better
than a George W. Bush or a Dick Cheney.
We can certainly count on her to involve us in
'any international conflict she can'.
Impedimentus
(898 posts)It's just a choice of a prolonged, painful death with Hillary/Bill or a faster painful death with some Republican. Republican-Lite Hillary is still Republican. Which national "death panel" does one prefer?
sarge43
(29,173 posts)The latter, a Repug POTUS, would be messier and far more painful, but the final result would be the same.
Plus, let's drop the "If you won't vote for Clinton, you're voting for a Republican." Male bovine fecal material.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)the people who promulgate that particular piece of coercive propaganda actually believe it. They cannot comprehend a mind unfettered by partisan obeisance.
temporary311
(959 posts)made insulting other candidate's supporters such a central part of their campaign?
"Hey, you delusional, racist, sexist, civil rights hating Berniebros, vote for me!"
Has homophobic been thrown about yet, or they saving that one?
edit: Oops, forgot "delusional."
NanceGreggs
(27,835 posts)Exactly when did Hillary insult Bernie supporters? When did she call them delusional, racist, sexist, civil rights hating Berniebros?
When did HRC make "insulting other candidates' supporters a central part of her campaign"?
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Bernie has woken people up to the fact that we're getting fucked in every possible way the 1% can dream up. Once that knowledge is gained its pretty much impossible to go back to being a pawn for the elite. The 1% couldn't care less about us... unless we stop shopping. Fuck 'em.
jhart3333
(332 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Then you need to form a coalition behind a candidate supporting those issues strongly. Of course, that also means backing issues of importance to other partners in the coalition. A partnership that's one-sided won't hold together.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)....Hillary's campaign so far has been one giant ratfuck. She wants to unify the party or earn my vote? The ratfucking needs to end.
Ratfuck.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)fuck the ratfucking.
senz
(11,945 posts)Cool it with the RFing. Sounds gross.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)might just be making a few of them less willing to vote for Hillary even in a GE.
Let the sheepdogging attempts begin!
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)
Response to HillDawg (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)While I actually advocate elimination of the anachronistic Electoral College, one good thing about it is that it allows people like me to vote their conscience. Since my state (Oregon) is virtually certain not to be even remotely in play, and because it's a "winner take all state" that gives all its Electors to the popular vote winner, it doesn't matter in the least who I vote for. Unless there were absolutely huge numbers of people like me, who cannot in good conscience vote for Hillary (if she's the candidate), she'll win Oregon regardless. But she'll do it without my vote (which will either go to a Green candidate or simply not be cast at all - I'll just skip the presidential section).
HillDawg
(198 posts)Good conscious would be for Trump or Rubio???? Would not only would be as corrupt with Wall Street and the rich as you make Hillary out to be, but would want to erase all social progress Democrats have ever made.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I quite explicitly stated I'd either vote for the Green candidate or not at all (for president). No mention whatsoever of voting for a Republican, which would literally require a gun to my head.
Sheesh...
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)I know everyone likes to nitpick and find fault with both candidates staffers and supporters, but the bottom line is that Bernie and Hillary basically support the same vision. The priorities might be in different orders, but honestly there is little difference.
I'll support the Democrat no matter who it is!
Beowulf
(761 posts)you'd offer a different candidate. For me, the Clintons are a big part of the problem that keeps us from addressing the concerns of the 99%. You are asking me to accept part of the problem as a solution. I've been doing that since the 80's. I don't see any tangible benefits to voting out of fear.
And no, Bernie and Hillary do not support the same vision. Not even close.
And, I do live in a swing state, a big swing state. I'll never vote for Trump or any Republican, but the Democratic nominee is going to have to earn my vote, not take it for granted.
Bernie and Hillary most definitely do not support the same vision. They are not even on the same planet as far as I am concerned.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)If all that matters to you is that "
D)" after the candidate's name, then why insist on the one who drives away so many?
senz
(11,945 posts)rpannier
(24,870 posts)I will likely vote for the nominee
Unless I decide to run, then all bets are off
Have a great day
Good post
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)...their own economic interests, focusing only on social issues?
Yeah, kind of done being played like that by Democrats.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)we're supposed to vote for Hillary because of social issues...we're supposed to forget that she's a corporatist who supports austerity and is disinterested in addressing income inequality. She's a fucking fiscal conservative and they're the assholes that have run this country into the ground.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)spread war, misery and destruction across the globe.
How many women and children have to perish under Democrat-ordered drone strikes before we feel a tinge of guilt for our privilege?
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)
dana_b
(11,546 posts)really? I never heard this before.
Nanjeanne
(6,521 posts)I don't want my vote taken for granted just because Hillary needs me to win the GE. I would have vote for her eagerly had she not resorted to the tactics she has to win a primary. She had a chance to be a real statesman. To have surrogates advocating for her. She chose to have them lie and smear a good man. i Would never have believed a Dem would choose to so divisively split the Dem electorate the way she has. She pushed me away. I didn't walk.
senz
(11,945 posts)This is it. There are dozens of things about her that repel me, but this is the worst. I cannot forgive her this. It takes something deeply ugly in a person -- lack of conscience, depravity, viciousness -- to do those things.
As I felt the disgust rising when reading your words, I remembered things she did to Obama that turned my distrust to loathing in 2008. But she's worse now -- these devious campaigns to get an elderly poc to slander Bernie, with her supporters on the ready to dive in with howls of racism when anyone rises up to defend him. And then they follow us around calling us "Bros" or racists or sexists.
To me, these campaigns are beyond shameful; they are diabolical. She brings out the worst in people. She reduces her followers to accomplices in something mutually degrading.
Again, how could anyone ever want someone like that as leader of the free world? I don't think the world could afford it.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Trump doesn't gain a vote if someone who doesn't vote for Hillary doesn't vote for Trump.
I won't vote for Trump or Hillary.
0 - 0 = 0
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)in my lifetime-- or my mom's lifetime, for that matter.
The closest presidential election in Arkansas in my lifetime was 1968, and that was Wallace 1, Nixon 2, and Humphrey, a distant 3rd.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Kinda like saying that because I didn't buy a yacht, boat sales are down.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)I'm 64 year old and have never voted for anyone from the GOP. Now when come to Hillary I will never vote for her.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)been a Democrat my whole life and I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils...tired of being blackmailed over the Supreme Court...don't want a HRC presidency.
840high
(17,196 posts)had it.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"Yes, we do agree on a number of issues, and by the way, on her worst day, Hillary Clinton will be an infinitely better candidate and President than the Republican candidate on his best day."
Why - I believe that would be Senator Sanders!
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Well. Let's see how that pans out for you.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Is For the PRIVACY of the Voting Booth and Not A Discussion Forum or Board. #FYI..
sarge43
(29,173 posts)
MisterP
(23,730 posts)every damn one on DU would pull the lever even after her crude, cruel campaign: it's the other 300 million Americans you have to win over
heck, Clinton said she'd be okay with abortion restrictions as long as they had maternal-health and incest exceptions? that's pre-Roe! Trump's an isolationist and Clinton's one of the premier hawks, interventionists, and downright war profiteers of the decade
womanofthehills
(10,735 posts)What about the f...ing Supreme Court. Don't you guys care about the makeup of the court - it could effect your ever getting another democrat into office - let along the quality of your life.
senz
(11,945 posts) PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Trash thread.
hoosierlib
(710 posts)I will never again vote for President that feeds at the same trough as Republicans. If the Democratic nominee takes money from corporations, that's corruption, because favors WILL be done.
I'm tired of the working poor getting exploited while the power brokers and political establishments of both parties have grown richer.
The Clinton's have made over $153 million dollars in speaking fees since 2000 (http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/hillary-clinton-bill-clinton-paid-speeches/), raised $2 billion for the sham charity (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clintons-raised-nearly-2-billion-for-foundation-since-2001/2015/02/18/b8425d88-a7cd-11e4-a7c2-03d37af98440_story.html) and have done NOTHING to improve the lives of the average person in this country. Her only accomplishments to date was authorizing the Iraq War and removing two dictators from power (and attempted to remove a third) that ultimately allowed ISIS to rise. Helluva job Hilly!
Most of her supporters are blind to these contradictions (they do so willingly) and facts (they are not called smears when they are fucking true). They are mostly women over the age 45 whose only reason for supporting her is because they want to see a women become President in their lifetime. Now they won't admit, but we know its true. Its blatant sexism.
Her presidency (I laugh when I say because it won't happen) would be both scandal ridden and pointless as the GOP would obstruct every single policy proposal...she would get NOTHING through Congress and
I'm done picking the lesser of two evils...
I will not vote for her under any circumstances...
And when the criminal indictment comes from the FBI in a few weeks or months and she sinks further in the polls to her potential Republican challengers, be sure to argue that its purely political and that it isn't true, despite the litany of facts to the contrary...
And if she loses in a landside to Trump, Cruz, Rubio or some other candidate chosen at a brokered convention, be sure to blame DUers like me who were fed up voting for Republican lite...
You had you chance and you wouldn't listen to us...you rather belittle us and call us delusional and mock us by telling us to "clap if believe in Tinkerbell"...
So go ahead and block my post and go hide Hilly's safe haven...
Hide there while people me discuss the truth of how independent and moderate voters will NOT vote for her either...and remember, we told you so...
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)In 2008, and if she somehow gets the nomination in '16 he loss will be on her head for running a weak campaign.
Jackilope
(819 posts)After years of DNC / Third Way crap, I am one heartbeat away from becoming an Independent. The DNC does show it has a spine. Oh, not in battling the GOP, mind you. They just use their spine trying to beat down the progressives in the tent.
There are plenty that have had enough from either party, which is why Independents are growing. Despite Hillary taking on conservative and GOP positions, the GOP will come out in droves to vote against her. The youth energized by Sanders will become disillusioned and most likely stay home if HRC is the nominee.
DNC and establishment politics are trying to push a weak candidate that banks and Wall St. could live with and thst several people already have trust issues over. The only winner is the 1% with a GOP nominee or a Clinton nominee.
Cobalt Violet
(9,976 posts)I can't be part of a right wing organization.
We_Must_Organize
(48 posts)and don't vote for the Democratic nominee then you're an idiot - full stop. Nothing else matters because you are handing the country over to CRAZY people when you could've stopped it.
Do what you can in the primary to get your candidate to win. If they lose, hold your fu**ing nose and vote for the Democrat! I will NOT stand idly by and watch Donald Trump or Ted Cruz destroy this country.
Gothmog
(176,217 posts)
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)
Response to HillDawg (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... by others. It's selfish to the extreme. Anyone who's old enough to vote shouldn't behave that way. Anyone who behaves that way may be "old-enough" to vote, but certainly isn't mature enough.
Ignore them. They're going to do what they want no matter what anyone says. Why indulge their vanities. They'll either come around, or just cry themselves to sleep.
In any case, there aren't enough people who feel that way to make a difference.
earthside
(6,960 posts)Vote for Hillary or else.
Franky, I'm sick and tired of this every two year wail from the corporate Democrats that we have to vote for them or we are doomed!
The lesser of two evils seems to have become the unofficial campaign slogan of the establishment Democratic Party.
Well, if we are so unfortunate as to have Hillary Clinton as the nominee, speaking for myself, I'm not doing this anymore.
I'm not voting for any candidate for president who is on the take from the banksters. Period.
Perhaps a Trump presidency is the only way to restore some accountability to the Democratic Party. I hope this doesn't happen and we can all vote for Sanders for President in the fall.
But we are a resilient people and we can survive Trump ... and maybe then the Democratic Party hierarchy will figure out that the 'party of the people' must be revived.
HillDawg
(198 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)I'm voting my conscience this time. Hillary can keep her Wall St buddies and Kissinger.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)I watched the Democratic National Convention on television when I was 10 years old. I was so moved, that I phoned in and donated $10.
I've voted in every election since I was 18 and always voted for Democrats.
I wrote a political column for several years that touted Democrats and debunked right-wing radio. This was during a time when Rush Limbaugh was fairly new. I met Bill Clinton once and we chatted about politics and I handed him one of my columns with a note attached. A few days later, I received a personal letter from then-President Clinton, telling me to keep writing and to keep up the good work. That letter is framed in my home office.
I've volunteered for many political campaigns. I was an absentee-ballot courier and canvasser for John Kerry; a precinct captain for Obama and I spoke for him at our caucus. Newsweek included my caucus experience in a lengthy article about the Obama campaign.
This year, I supported Bernie wholeheartedly--canvassed in the snow, made phone calls, served as precinct captain and welcomed four out-of-state Bernie supporters into our home for a week--so others could help Bernie win the Iowa caucuses.
If Hillary Clinton is our nominee, I will consider myself politically homeless. A huge part of my identity will evaporate. It will be a huge loss.
That's just how it is. I never, ever thought I'd see the day when our party would be touting a candidate that surrounds themselves with neocons like Robert Kagan--the founder of PNAC. That is who Hillary chose as her Middle East foreign-policy adviser while she was Secretary of State. That chills me to the bone. I can't believe Democrats would tout a candidate who snags untold millions from powerful Wall Street interests--in speaking fees, "donations" and campaign donations. Those bastards decimated our economy!! They're destroying the middle class!! And their money is funding her campaign. She's a champion of the corrupt campaign-finance system that is converting this country from a democracy into a nation run by the corporations.
I won't vote for her. I won't apologize for that either.
I was told today by a Clinton DU supporter to just "take my marbles and go home". That's their usual schtick when someone truly grieves about the loss of their party. They try to paint us as immature children, but I'd like to know how much maturity it takes to perpetuate lie-based war in the Middle East--to profit the corporations? How "adult" is it to taint our democracy and our party with corporate bribes?
I hold out hope that she is not our nominee. I hold out hope that our party doesn't nominate her and run our party into the ground.
840high
(17,196 posts)
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)thanks so much for your work in Iowa!!!
earthside
(6,960 posts)Your early political history especially parallels my own.
I was volunteering at the local Democratic HQ when I was eleven years old ... mind you, my parents were not political, I did that all on my own.
I was called 'Mr. Democrat' when I was in high school.
My political heros are individuals like James Madison, Emma Goldman, FDR, Robert Kennedy ...
I was the county chair for Bill Clinton in 1992 for the state primary.
I have been tactical and loyal to the Democratic Party in the past.
The stakes now for the nation are too high for that kind of political tribalism.
Hillary Clinton is the antithesis of almost everything I have come to stand for in politics.
The Repuglicans are what they are and we all know that -- but for a Democrat to be a neoliberal-neoconservative and be the party's nominee for president is just too much hypocrisy, too much corporatism, too much elitism for me to personally tolerate.
I won't vote for her. I won't apologize for that either.
I hold out hope that she is not our nominee. I hold out hope that our party doesn't nominate her and run our party into the ground.
Well said.
Ino
(3,366 posts)she will lose the GE. And it won't be MY fault for putting forward such a flawed, provenly unelectable candidate. It will be YOURS.
aikoaiko
(34,213 posts)So far -- not so much.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)''Well, who else can you vote for?"
HRC has consciously made a decision to get in bed with Wall Street, cynically calculating that we will vote for her because we have no choice.
Nope, not going along with it.
Yeager29
(26 posts)because he's been liberal all his life. I might just not vote instead of giving her my vote. I think Trump might have sneaked into the republican camp and will set fire to the republican party. Which is what he's already doing. He might be lying. We KNOW she's lying and can't be trusted. At all, anywhere, anytime, with anything. So she's burning down our own camp in the hopes that we can't see what she's doing. FHRC.
S&W 2016
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Yeager29
(26 posts)and I said I just might not vote at all. and don't tell me I'm on the wrong site. Enough people already telling me not to vote for Bernie. He's just "not right" either. Let me know what you think I should be thinking then. Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)is another step closer to turning America over to a potential nightmare situation.
We can still avoid it by getting behind a true progressive candidate.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)...but the utterly pure never will -- like Cruz, for instance, who would be a new Savanarola; and the followers of Sanders who are so abundant here, secular Calvinists to whom compromise is hateful.
Bernie Sanders, as far as I can tell, is not like the followers he has inspired. He's a politician. He's a politician, for all that he's a crusty alta caca who shouts about the injustice of it all.
In the end, if Hillary is the nominee, he will shake her hand like a gentleman....and compromise so he gets something for his people. Because he has already gotten a LOT for his people, whether they acknowledge it or not, by pushing Hillary ever Lefter -- which strangely enough they resent the hell out of. Because they are not politicians. Or realists. They are pure. Gods help us all.
JURY: This is a personal opinion. Also a personal analysis of the situation here. I intend to hurt no feelings.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)What a joke!
In no way, shape, or form has Hillary ever been "left" and her fake lip service to a couple populist matters aren't fooling anyone.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)No one can force you to like her, or politics, or compromise, or process. No once can force you to either recognize the depth and breadth of her activism, or to like it.
Not my problem.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Sorry, I don't have super powers.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bernie Sanders.
I have been a Democrat all my life. Wore my Adlai Stevenson button to school and started campaigning when McGovern ran.
I will vote for all Democrats on my ballot, but not for Hillary.
I will vote for Bernie, gladly and proudly vote for Bernie if he is nominated.
By the way, I'm a woman.
I do not like Hillary's lukewarm stands on the issues. In my view she is Republican Lite.
I do not trust her with my Social Security or Medicare.
I do not trust her with regard to much of everything.
She is a lawyer. Surely at some point in her life she took family law. Yet she told an audience (I have heard the video.) that marriage is a religious rite or something to that effect. Any lawyer knows that marriage is a legal matter. A marriage, even a common law marriage, has to be either registered or recognized by the law. A religious marriage has no legal significance until it has been recognized by the laws of the state in which the couple are residing.
And on and on, issue after issue, Hillary's thinking and statements are inconsistent and not well thought through. Another example is her vote on the IWR. And she voted for that after a visit from Code Pink women who had been in Iraq and warned her that it was the wrong thing to vote yes on.
On the other side we have Bernie. Bernie does not take huge donations from the rich and wealthy or from corporations. The closest thing he has to a superpac is the support of union members, especially the Nurses Association. Members as I understand it can only give $100 to that. Thus, the nurses who are members of the Nurses Association also do not give over $2000, which I understand is the limit on the size of a donation.
Bernie is right on the issues -- on single payer (I lived in Europe for years and loved single payer -- best way to pay for health insurance), on free tuition at state colleges and other schools (see the poll here on DU with 94% of the over 180 answering supporting this concept), paid family leave for new parents, paid from a small tax on working people . . . . I agree with all his stands on the issues, every one.
Hillary -- I simply do not agree with her stands on the issues. She is not bold. She is giving in to the Republicans before even being elected. That is the same mistake that Obama, wonderful as he is, has made.
So, no, I will not stand with Hillary. I will stand with every other Democrat on my ticket, but NOT WITH HILLARY.
She is, I understand, a very nice lady if you meet her. But she is not on my side. She is on the side of the oligarchs and the Republicans, and I will not vote for her.
I have compromised over and over. I worked very hard to get Obama elected, first in election protection in 2008 and then registering voters in 2012. No way will I vote for Hilary. It's time to nominate a real Democrat, and that is, in my opinion, Bernie and not Hillary.
humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)
demigoddess
(6,675 posts)when we are faced with a Pres. Trump who acts like a Hitler clone.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)It will happen at some point in time. I hope not soon.
President Sanders will do so much good for this country. It will be a true turning point. The one we wanted with Obama, but he gave us endless war & the TPP & an $8 BILLION food stamp cut & fracking instead.
He woke us up though. We want the change & Sanders is the guy to do it now.
840high
(17,196 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)
HillDawg
(198 posts)Threads glamouring over the popular vote lead Bernie has after three states.
merrily
(45,251 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)a Democratic candidate for the President of the United States of America.
HillDawg
(198 posts)And if he's the nominee, so will I.
coyote
(1,561 posts)Vote for her or else. The Democratic Party has played that card one too many times. I am still not voting for her...she's a crap candidate and does not represent my values in the slightest. Good luck in November if she wins the nomination, you'll need it.
Cobalt Violet
(9,976 posts)This was ours to lose and we are going to lose with Clinton.
amborin
(16,631 posts)mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)I expect to vote for Sanders against Trump.
HillDawg
(198 posts)And if that's the case, I will follow that action!
BostonBob
(18 posts)To ensure a Democratic president, I've decided to vote for Bernie. While Hillary or Bernie would make identically great presidents, I fear that Hillary is unelectable. The starry-eyed, unicorn-worshipping BernieBros view Hillary as a corrupt tool of Wall Street and greedy multinationals. They assume she will betray them on TPP and keystone XL simply because she was for those terrible ideas until 2 months before Iowa when she "flip-flopped." They say that she voted for the disastrous Iraq war - trillions wasted on killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. That after replacing Saddam Hussein with Isis she pushed to invade Libya and replace Qaddafi with Isis there. They feel she's addicted to mindless, counterproductive destruction abroad which will leave no money for anything constructive at home. They view Kissinger as a War Criminal and think anyone would be insane to listen to a thing he says. Her obvious pride in Kissinger's approval is a deal breaker for these Bern idealists. They even worry that her "saber-rattling belligerence" toward Russia could trigger a nuclear war. These under 30 unicorn types are just never gonna show up for "Shillary" as they call her. They'll write in Bernie or go and vote for Jill Stein of the Green Party out of spite. They are not smart enough to see that electing a democrat is Job 1. The result will be President Trump/Cruz/Rubio and a Democratic Party that gets shellacked in down ballot races. And there goes the Supreme Court as well. Now the savvy clear-eyed Hillary supporters understand that uniting after the primary is essential to beat back those dastardly republicans. With Bernie we will have a coalition of realists and idealists, of old and young. Working class and middle class people of all races. This election is too important to risk the imminent fracturing that will occur unless we nominate Bernie.
jfern
(5,204 posts)So a vote for Hillary in the primary is a vote for the Republican in the general election.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Won't you fuckers just stop with the swiftboating, slandering and ratfucking that you've been doing esp. w.r.t. "race", so you won't feel this terrible need to post your fucking "loyalty oath OPs"?
Please.
HillDawg
(198 posts)Thanks for the reply.
Go Democrats!
delrem
(9,688 posts)It's always just "good talk" for swiftboating ratfuckers.
HillDawg
(198 posts)To respond to obscene things like that. You are being an ass and don't deserve a reasonable response. Act mature about it and voice your opinion in a mature way and I would honestly love to have a good discussion.
delrem
(9,688 posts)In fact, it is documented on DU.
Bye, HillDawg.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Please God, not Cruz. We are not committed.
GreenPartyVoter
(73,378 posts)Hillary. In my opinion, she will not be a candidate to vote for, just another in a long line of center-right placeholders while we wait for a progressive who will make a change.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts) 
great white snark
(2,646 posts)I don't know of one...ONE Democratic friend who supports Bernie that would not vote for Hillary in the GE. It's not even a question that needs to be asked outside of DU.