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[Grassy Knoll]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Grassy Knoll) on Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:20 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. From the LA Times:

If Bernie Sanders loses, his backers may not be there for Hillary Clinton in November

Gio Vanecchia is so enamored of Bernie Sanders that he made a five-hour drive with his wife and infant son from South Jersey on Saturday morning to catch a glimpse of the progressive firebrand.

But what if Sanders loses the Democratic nomination? Asked whether he will be there to vote for the Democrat in November should Sanders falter, the 34-year-old union mechanic reacts as if the question is insane. There is not a chance, he insists, that he would ever support Hillary Clinton.

“She’s establishment,” Vanecchia said. “Most of the guys I work with think she’s a criminal.”

Vanecchia’s second choice for president is Donald Trump.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-clinton-sanders-20160206-story.html

[FrenchieCat]

32. "She's establishment"....

so much demagoguery!

[Number23]

43. "Vanecchia’s second choice for president is Donald Trump."

[sufrommich]

50. Yeah,that pretty telling.nt

[Jitter65]

83. "most of the GUYS I work with HINK she's a criminal." So we will allow guys we know are criminal

to win the WH? Hmmm... Women "I don't vote with my v-----a But it is ok for men to vote with their d___k?

I just don't get it. If everyone had to live up to the bar we set for the Clintons...not even Bernie could run.

[JonLeibowitz]

107. Men who think Hillary is a criminal are doing that thinking with their d___k?

News to me.

[BlueCaliDem]

92. If Vanecchia's firs choice is Sanders and second choice Trump, you kind of know

what side his loudest, most obnoxious supporters online are on.

[uponit7771]

2. That's what a republican would sound like

[Barack_America]

6. Or an independent.

Few of those out there as well.

[iAZZZo]

15. more than a few......

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Goody we are now even higher 43 percent

But we are just a few

[JonLeibowitz]

108. A few more soon -- my CA change of party will be processed just as soon as the USPS delivers it.

But yeah, we're unimportant in the general Election...right?

[FrenchieCat]

33. Most of the Independents I know lean conservative

and are voting for trump....since Independents are anything but monolithic!

[HooptieWagon]

40. The ones I know are liberal or buffet table libertarians.

[olddots]

3. a thing ?

Yup you called it minor

[Uncle Joe]

4. I like, respect and admire Bernie much more than I hate Hillary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1310860


Thanks for the thread, Grassy Knoll.

[Grassy Knoll]

9. Always Like You Posts and respect them joe.

[Uncle Joe]

36. Thank you, Grassy Knoll.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. It's certainly not my "thing."

I'm not that crazy about Hillary but I'm supporting Bernie because I like him.

[malokvale77]

7. Get real.

"I Like Bernie" way more than I "Hate Hillary".

You made up that thing.

[Grassy Knoll]

11. It's All In The Mind, Right?

[malokvale77]

20. Oh dear...

you really are clueless.

It's the physical state of poverty.

I can't help you.

[Grassy Knoll]

21. Oh Dear Lord, Please Help Me

And God And My Country....

[malokvale77]

22. You are a perfect representative for Hillary Clinton. nt

[daleanime]

28. Don't thank us, thank yourself......

you only hear what you want to. But have a lovely night anyways.

[malokvale77]

29. I get it

"Obviously Hillary cannot run on the issues"

So she sends out the trolls.

Have fun.

[cali]

44. How very hillarian.

[msongs]

8. 20 years worth of democratic hillary haters all uniting behind...not hillary nt

[BlueCaliDem]

94. It's clear they bought the Hate-Hillary kool aid. I'm not that gullible. eom

[Armstead]

10. I disapprove of the word "hate", but yeah intense dislike for what she stands for combined with...

admiring Bernie and agreeing with him for years.

[bobbobbins01]

12. Corruption and lies aside...I'd still vote for Bernie over Hillary.

His views reflect my views. Hers do not. I don't hate her for that though. I hate her because she's corrupt and lies. I think she must have a contempt for her constituents to think she can continue to talk out of both sides of her mouth like she does.

[Maedhros]

13. I don't 'hate' Hillary - I've never met her, so I have not had the chance to develop such feelings.

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:19 AM - Edit history (1)

However, her policies and political bedfellows disgust me.

On the other hand, I've been following Bernie Sanders for 20 years and I find his policies much, much better.

In my opinion both the Democratic and Republican rank-and-file are being played by their respective Parties. Each group has been trained very carefully to hate the other side, and to view government action (or inaction) through a partisan lens: my side good, their side bad. We even have our own versions of the Two Minute Hate - like this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017332161.

It's all designed to get us to respond negatively and emotionally to those designated as our opponents. That kind of knee-jerk non-critical political thinking now dominates political discussion, and any kind of criticism of a candidate or disobedience toward our partisan overlords is cheaply labeled as "hate."

[daleanime]

30. +1

[Vote2016]

58. exactly!

[MrWendel]

14. Not buying it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. The opposite of both love and hate is indifference.

I don't hate Hillary, I just think she's unfit for public office.

[Armstead]

60. Yeah, I thought she was okay when she wasn't running

Another DC main chancer, but oaky I guess

But when she steps toward the Presidency....

[Kalidurga]

17. That's funny

Cuz if Hillary had decided not to run and it was between Martin and Bernie I would still be supporting Bernie. Hillary is a non issue.

[Live and Learn]

18. Hating is not the same as not supporting. I will never support her. She lost my support with her

IWR vote and her other regressive policies. Her recent falsifications have just validated my concerns that she is not fit to be President.

[Jitter65]

78. Recent falsifications? More detail please. nt

[Grassy Knoll]

19. So Confirmed....

You hate Hillary more than you like Bernie, No Obvious argument,
Understood.

[mikehiggins]

24. I find it hard to credit that many people in the party "hate" Hillary.

And by many, I mean of course, enough people to make a difference within the party. Certainly, all those people who vote for her do not "hate" her and only a handful are supporting Sanders because of their hatred of Secretary Clinton. The vast majority support him because they think he is right and she is wrong. That's fair. That's America.

This is not to say that many of us do not find her politics abhorrent and, like me, find her friendship with Kissinger disgusting. We, or at least I, do not hate her however.

Where you might want to consider, of course, is how many people across the board, Democratic, Republican and Independents simply do not trust her, at least since her bizarre account of being shot at by some Bosnian sniper. It is possible Sanders might have told a lie or two over the course of his career but at least he was smart enough not to have a video recording proving he lied.

Another consideration would be how many of the GOPukes DO actually hate her with a deep and everlasting hatred that no sane person can shake (and I have tried). You can be sure that those people will turn out--one commentator suggested such people would crawl naked across broken glass to vote against her--in the GE, a consideration that might weigh more heavily on a sensible person when deciding on a Presidential nomination.

[Art_from_Ark]

37. You're talking to yourself?

You hate Hillary more than you like Bernie? OK.

[togetherforever]

26. I don't hate Hillary but if her supporters think she's the face of

Democratic party then we have lost our way.

What happened to us?

[TIME TO PANIC]

35. Excellent first post.

Welcome to DU.

[togetherforever]

39. Thank you

[840high]

41. Nice to have you here.

[delrem]

27. Your observation is biased toward your view. You know that, right? nt

[FrenchieCat]

31. Smells like extortion to me....

Ain't gonna work!

Folks should vote how they want, and stop trying to use their vote as a wedge.

Somebody don't want to vote for Bernie or Hillary....
I respect their freedom!

[SwampG8r]

62. Thank you

Im glad youre back

[gyroscope]

34. Her voice is like nails on a chalkboard

There hasn't a been a more unlikable politician since Bush and Cheney.

[Nonhlanhla]

47. Her VOICE is what bothers you?!

Oh boy...

[Carolina]

53. I tend to agree

in that it's the sound of her talking down to us peons, falsely berating her opponent, and outright lying about her alleged record and his actual one.

It's not the voice per se as it is the voice coupled with words. I hit the mute button because she evokes in me the visceral reaction I had to Cheney.

[treestar]

64. That's a level of hate that shoed be limited to Republicans

We don't do that to fellow Democrats.

[gyroscope]

66. Hillary is not a democrat

she campaigned for a Republican (Goldwater) who voted against the Civil Rights and vowed to overturn it after it passed. Not then and not now has she ever been a democrat.

[treestar]

67. She is a Democrat

This stuff is just dumb.

[gyroscope]

69. She is a Republican

her agenda is anti-labor, anti-poor, pro-war and pro-Wall Street.

[treestar]

71. oh bull shit

She is a Democrat. Ask any real Republicans. This Wall Street thing is starting to sound like a mantra. It's an invention. And the public in general does not hate Wall Street.

[gyroscope]

77. "Ask any real Republicans."

you need to republican's word for validation? I doubt you are a real democrat.

I don't hate Wall Street, except when they try to buy our elections and write our laws but apparently you are perfectly fine with that.

[treestar]

79. You have to be a Republican to realize they exist?

Maybe you have insulated yourself and don't know what they sound like. Yes they are valid about what constitutes a Republican and they would laugh their asses of at the idea Hillary was one of them.

Nobody thinks Wall Street "buys our elections and writes our laws." That's ridiculous. Simply repeating such oversimplified drivel over and over again does not attract voters.

[gyroscope]

86. So you're perfectly fine with the Citizen's United ruling?

that allows unlimited campaign contributions from corporations?


The health insurance and pharmaceutical industry literally wrote the ACA.

Forbes: ObamaCare Enriches Only The Health Insurance Giants and Their Shareholders

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/10/01/obamacare-enriches-only-the-health-insurance-giants-and-their-shareholders/#4e1304be68c8

[Thinkingabout]

73. Thom Hartmann also campaigned for Goldwater.

[gyroscope]

74. That was his dad

Hartmann was 13 years old at the time.

[Thinkingabout]

75. Check his Wikipedia. If you excuse Hartmann for being thirteen then

The same applies to Hillary who was sixteen at the time and following her dad. It is a bad point to try to make.

[gyroscope]

82. Hillary did it on her own

her parents were not political, and there is a big difference between 13 and 16.


"she related in Living History that she had to persuade her father to drive her and a friend to hear Goldwater speak when the GOP nominee made a campaign swing by train through the Chicago suburbs."

she said in her book she wanted to vote for Goldwater but couldn't due to her age.

[Thinkingabout]

87. You fo not have the right facts, he father was republican, her mother

Was a Democrat, she was not old enough to vote, neither was Hartmann, and you do not get to excuse one without the other, both was making youthful decisions.

[gyroscope]

89. "Youthful decisions"

Hartmann is not his dad, and Hillary campaigned for Goldwater on her own as she described in her book.

[Thinkingabout]

99. Well, you can zero out part of hartmann's life, okay with me, one less star in his cap.

[gyroscope]

102. Hartmann isn't the one running for office

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are.

Its a question of character. In his youth Sanders was fighting for civil rights at the same time Clinton was fighting to deny people their civil rights. See the difference?

[Thinkingabout]

111. Well, that settles it, Hillary is disqualified since she campaigned for

Goldwater before she could vote, and now since Sanders was a candidate in the Liberty Union party, he ran as an Independent and did not become a Democrat within the last year so he I disqualified also.

[Dem2]

80. Are you f****** kidding me?

A person is limited their entire life to how they thought when they were 17 and raised in a Republican family? People can't ever change or grow in 50 years?

That's so ridiculous it's not even funny. Now how do you like idea that it's going to be difficult to take anything you say seriously after a post like this?

[Thinkingabout]

101. Maybe as Democrats has worked for years to improve our lives some never knew Democrats

activities and believes talking points rather than facts. I don't even understand why this is an issue is promoted since Sanders has not even said he was a Democrat for less than a year.

[gyroscope]

103. Not when they're running for the highest office in the land

we should have the highest standards for our candidates.

Sanders has shown moral consistency and character throughout his entire life. Clinton flip flops and changes her position at the drop of a hat whenever it is politically advantageous for her to do so.

[Dem2]

105. Ahh, so one of the candidates is as pure as ivory soap

So there's the official definition of who to pick for a candidate.

Thanks for enlightening me.

[gyroscope]

106. Our standards should be high

we're talking about President of United States not a telemarketing job.

[merrily]

38. Very doubtful. Bernie's supporters are the most enthusiastic I've seen in my life and I was

damned enthusiastic about Obama in 2008.

[Bradical79]

51. I've come across it a couple times with Republican coworkers

Both started off supporting Trump and Sanders, despite having economic views more inline with Clinton. Their logic basically went: Trump is honest and tells it like it is, Clinton and Obama are communists, Sanders is a socialist and socialists are "good people". I try not to think of it too much.

[Bugenhagen]

42. says you

[Betty Karlson]

45. Clinton hasn't exactly endeared herself to Sanders' supporters, has she?

And as for Third Way and all the other things Clinton represents: it's perfectly reasonable to hate the company Clinton keeps.

[jack_krass]

46. It's her supporters here on DU (and their useful idiots)

that I hate I actually like Hillary

[sufrommich]

48. I think this recently banned Sanders supporter

proves your point:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=307836


Notice the lovely threat to Hillary supporters at the end of his vile screed. Even Earl G. points to it as a good reason for banning him in his PPR comment.

[Madam Mossfern]

76. I think it was more of a warning

than a threat. A warning that after their usefulness to the Clinton campaign, they will be tossed like dross.

[sufrommich]

88. No,it wasn't. Defending this sexist jerk

who calls Clinton the "c" word is beyond the pale.

[Madam Mossfern]

109. There's a difference between objectionable language

and a threat.

[SecularMotion]

49. Nothing new

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251928062

[NCTraveler]

52. Those of us who have been around for awhile...

Are well aware of CDS. The affliction is felt by her supporters as well. It is unhinged and people like Rush, Hannity, and republicans have bee fomenting it for decades. Anything to stop progress. They are simple minds with powerful voices.

[shawn703]

55. You're just now learning that Sanders has crossover appeal?

He was able to get some of the poorer Republicans to vote for their own best interests for a change. Where have you been?

[liberal N proud]

56. Hate is a learned emotion, it comes from others, not generated from within one's self

People love to hate something or someone, strong black men and strong white women are prime targets for hate.

Have you ever met someone and hated them before you knew them or knew about them? NO! Something/someone put that hate in your mind. So you impression is tainted by what someone else said to you about that person.

[OkSustainAg]

57. I don't hate

Hillary. I am anti big corporation always have always will.

[cali]

59. I can't stand her but I like Bernie more than I can't stand Hillary

He's represented me for 25 years. I think he'd be a very good president.

[bigwillq]

61. I don't hate Hillary--I don't really know her

But I do know that I don't want her to be president.

[treestar]

63. +1

For the most part, Bernie is just being used as an anchor for Hillary hate. If he had not run, it would have been O'Malley.

[BlueCaliDem]

96. Yep. Exactly. Too bad too many here have bought the Hate-Hillary kool aid.

The GOP, Rove, and Koch Bros must be tickled pink.

[pengu]

65. Why not both?

I've admired Bernie for years and years. I've been disgusted with Clinton for years and years.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

68. I do not hate Hillary.

I think her policies and ideas are incredibly destructive, both for the country and humanity as a whole, and that she's focused on herself and what she wants, not the rest of us and what we need.

Heck, I don't even hate any of the declared Republicans, either. I just think the statement above applies to them as well.

[Logical]

70. Silly post, but you know that. Nt

[vi5]

72. I don't hate her. I hate what she represents...

..which is a continued rightward shift in the Democratic party on many of the core issues that made me become a Democrat 35 years ago and support the party in every way I could during that time.

I don't love Bernie. I like him and think he's a flawed alternative to an even more highly flawed candidate as far as my own personal core democratic values go.

[JackInGreen]

81. Not so much, a little over a year ago I was 'Ready for hillary' despite my misgivings about her past

the running joke in the house was 'Unless Warren or Sanders jumps in, then buh-by Hill.', and that's the way it went.
I've heard some uses of the word hate about Hillary, but all stated as subjective opinion with reasoning I might not agree with, but can't gainsay their perspective.
What I'm not getting is the hate against what appears to be ALL Bernie supporters. I hear 'Bernie people are aweful/stupid/naive/young/stoned/undercover republicans/woman hating he-men' more often than I hear 'I hate Hillary'.
Maybe we could do a site search, see how those numbers break down?
Bet you a box of donuts that you'd see 'Bernie supporter' hate more often then you do 'Hillary Clinton' hate.

Now, if you're defining hate as being critical, you might have a point...

[HereSince1628]

84. I think that language is prejudicial, but my opinion is, SO WHAT?

People make up their minds on whom to support in ways that are not subject to -ANY- rules.

If you like HRC because you don't like the patriarchy, no one can object to that. It's personal choice.

If I support Sanders because I think HRC is a triangulating, wealth server who compromises the needs and values of common people that too is personal choice.

[restorefreedom]

85. do we all get to make up a "thing" for today?

it must be "make up your own thing" day

but lets be clear...vehemently disagreeing with someone's atrocious, dangerous, destructive and discriminatory policies is not personal hatred. but i can understand how people wrapped up in identity politics and personality might see it that way.

[Vote2016]

90. "I like Bernie" is why she loses MY vote; "I hate Hillary" is why she loses millions of independent

votes.

"I like Bernie" is why she may lose the primary; "I hate Hillary" is why she would DEFINITELY lose the general election if we are foolish enough to nominate her.

These are two separate problems. Hillary's super delegates may mask the first problem but the second problem is fatal to her ambitions.

[BlueCaliDem]

91. My observation as well. eom

[Jester Messiah]

93. Garbage thread. Welcome to your new home in the trash! [nt]

[jillan]

95. Nobody likes me everybody hates me

I'm going to go eat some worms.

That's exactly what this thread sounds like to me. Kindergarten.

[NurseJackie]

97. Denying it and pretending it doesn't exist is also a thing.

I think it's quite sad really.

[MrWendel]

100. Yeah...

I've read allot from other websites stating that they would rather vote for Trump. In a heartbeat.

[tazkcmo]

98. Awwwww....

Has a sad? Need hugz? All betterz now?

[azurnoir]

104. awwww

[Orsino]

110. Unless the hate and like are unfounded, so what? n/t

[AzDar]

112. I don't 'hate' Hillary... but I know she is a proven liar who takes dirty money and makes ...

very poor decisions (IWR). I also think she is callous ( 'we came, we saw, he died' ) and holds no deeply-held belief that she wouldn't compromise ("evolve on&quot in a heartbeat to win an election...

[LanternWaste]

113. I've never met either, so liking or hating either one would be creative fiction on my part

I've never met either, so liking or hating either one would be creative fiction on my part. Supporting (or not) policy and platform after analysis (rather than editorial) however, is what my vote is eventually predicated on.

No doubt, trendy "Things" are all over the place... I still have Pet Rock from 1979.

[SDJay]

114. I Don't Hate Hillary

I just think she maximized her opportunity within the system as it's currently constituted. It's an inherently corrupt system, but Hillary didn't invent the system or make it corrupt. The system corrupted her along with many others.

When Obama ran in 08, he said things that I had been dying to hear be said for a long time. I have some of the same reactions to things that Bernie says. And unlike Obama, I don't see Bernie accepting the obstructionists for what they are and not following through with what was discussed during the campaign in some ways. Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but respect and admiration for President Obama for a litany of reasons. That doesn't mean I don't disagree with some of the things he's done and not done, though, and that's just the nature of these situations.

Back to Bernie - FINALLY, someone is repeatedly and specifically pointing out how the game is rigged. FINALLY, someone is forcing those who profited massively from this rigged game to explain themselves. FINALLY, our debate is about important things like debt, income disparity, wealth disparity, our economic system, our political system, our wars, etc.

Remember campaigns like 04 when the 'big' issues were swiftboating and the obvious lie about a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?

Regardless, if Hillary is the nominee, I'll gladly vote for her as the alternative is simply unacceptable. And that's basically what it is for me - I'd be voting for Bernie in the GE, but against whatever repuke asshole is on the other side if Hillary is on the GE ticket. And if Hillary were to win, I'd feel a sense of relief that our Supreme Court would not be totally fucked and then a sense of resignation that we'd have several more years of the same rigged game. You take the good with the bad, I guess.