2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumChamber Of Commerce Lobbyist: "Hillary Will Support TPP After Election"
From the link:
Reporting on the interview, Inside U.S. Trade noted:
The Chamber president said he expected Hillary Clinton would ultimately support the TPP if she becomes the Democratic nominee for president and is elected. He argued that she has publicly opposed the deal chiefly because her main challenger, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), has also done so. "If she were to get nominated, if she were to be elected, I have a hunch that what runs in the family is you get a little practical if you ever get the job," he said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/chamber-of-commerce-lobby_b_9104096.html
OOPS! looks like someone spilled the beans!!
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onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)When you fail to clearly state positions on issues of vital importance to the American people, or continually evolve on many many things, it speaks volumes. This woman stands for one thing only and that is money. She couldn't give two fucks about anything else.
Duval
(4,280 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)
Cobalt Violet
(9,976 posts)
djean111
(14,255 posts)
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)and focusing on supporting the wealthy.
Bryant
AzDar
(14,023 posts)
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)
democrank
(12,598 posts)WEATHERVANE-
Mechanical device attached to an elevated structure; rotates freely to show direction of the wind.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(13,291 posts)
?Kittycat
(10,493 posts)Campaigning Clinton is always different than a Clinton in action.
Below is a great article which includes a detailed timeline of Clinton on trade, not just TPP. Here's an interesting snippet of how she generally works though. Plus, Google for her recent email releases. I've read quite a bit this weekend on her trade dealings. Very eye opening, since these emails are direct communications, and not filtered.
When running for president in 2007 and 2008, she spoke strongly against potential agreements with Colombia, Panama and South Korea. Her positions on Colombia and South Korea changed, however, when she became secretary of state under President Obama, who ironically ran to Clinton's left in 2008 on trade.
In 2007, for example, Clinton called the South Korea deal "inherently unfair." Yet, four years later in Seoul, South Korea, as secretary of state, she said getting a South Korea deal done was a "priority for me, for President Obama and for the entire administration. We are determined to get it done, and I believe we will."
In April 2008, before the Pennsylvania primary, where she was trying to woo white working-class men, she said of a Colombia deal that she "will do everything I can to urge the Congress to reject the Colombia Free Trade Agreement."
But again, as secretary of state, she changed her tune.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/21/401123124/a-timeline-of-hillary-clintons-evolution-on-trade
Eta: she's also one of the co-founders of the Third Way. TPP is one of their banner projects (3rd way also loves them some republicans and bad business).
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)
TTUBatfan2008
(3,623 posts)Trump is very protectionist on trade, so she won't be allowed to flip-flop before the end of the general election. But if she wins, I would definitely expect a flip-flop back to her original position on this matter.
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)TTUBatfan2008
(3,623 posts)Trump will run third party if they screw him over. Now if a strong majority of voters currently supporting Cruz/Rubio/Carson/Kasich/Bush decide to team up on their own in Rubio's favor, I think Trump will accept the judgment of the voters. If Trump has a majority of the votes going into the convention, I don't think the GOP can afford to nominate someone else or it will cost them the general election when he runs third party.
Efilroft Sul
(4,413 posts)Must be that illusion of choice Carlin talked about.
tonybgood
(218 posts)he won't be able to mount an independent run because he won't be able to get on the general election ballot.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)If she flips her support she will lose a lot of progressive voters.
Hardly worthy of discussion.
Does anyone really believe Hillary Clinton on this?
Clinton: Well, but, you know, you're asking me to say, “Have I ever?” I don't believe I ever have. I don't believe I ever have. I don't believe I ever will. I'm going do the best I can to level with the American people.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Into supporting her previous ideals. She is only agreeing with Bernie to win the nomination.
kgnu_fan
(3,021 posts)Scalded Nun
(1,691 posts)Shocked, I tell you!
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)
KansDem
(28,498 posts)We simply can't afford her.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)"Bait and switch" Hillary strikes again.
Someone here characterized her perfectly the other day, referring to her imitating Bernie's policies "me too, but not really".
ejbr
(5,892 posts)Probably not, so I would guess she told them she is playing the voters for stooges.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)FrostyAusty
(57 posts)When we post facts the Hillbots don't rush in to defend her since, well.... They can't. We Sanders supporters are not the enemy! We are supporting someone who is looking out for ALL of us.
Keep fighting the good fight yall!
jalan48
(14,914 posts)
jhart3333
(332 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Of course she will pivot to the TPP.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is not in a reality based world.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)when everyone else answers. 
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)Shocked!!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)The Clintons have always supported trade agreements that kill jobs and funnel wealth to the 1%.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Even a few of Hillary's supporters on this website acknowledged it and said the TPP was somehow a good thing. Lucky for them most of the media sort of ignores coverage of this issue.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)The TPP will be signed into law before Obama leaves the WH. They've just put it on hold until Nov 9th so it has minimal impact on the election process.
If Bernie wins the GE we'll probably also see the House and Senate in a race to appoint the replacement SC Justice Obama picks as well to take the choice out of Bernie's hands.
Yuugal
(2,281 posts)
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)Hillary has not evolved at all and we all know that
Not Sure
(735 posts)Yuugal
(2,281 posts)I miss them too. They are needed now. I was just thinking of how much like 2004 this seems and those pics popped to mind so I goggled and found that site. Brings back so many more memories. Same people, same issues, same corrupt party. All hail our lizard overlords.
I just posted pic 3 elsewhere. Check out how swampie was a dozen light years ahead at the time. Now we are really living it all over again.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)But I bet he's much happier where he is.
Fla Dem
(27,633 posts)freebrew
(1,917 posts)they still believe it.
Did someone sell them some unicorns?
Matariki
(18,775 posts)A good handful of her supporters here anyway seem perfectly happy to repeat lies that have been proven to be lies.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)We've really lost a lot of ground to the Rs these last decades.
Hope I see things turn pretty soon.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)
Orsino
(37,428 posts)I'm not yet convinced that the SecState who helped negotiate the TPP is going to do much to mitigate its damage.
turbinetree
(27,551 posts)completely, when it comes to voters .............................your record and comments on trade, are the factual record and comments on those facts
http://www.ibtimes.com/election-2016-hillary-clinton-flip-flops-trade-agreements-tpp-nafta-colombia-2132052
http://www.ibtimes.com/hillary-clinton-emails-secret-negotiations-new-york-times-trade-bill-lobbying-2315809
http://www.ibtimes.com/cables-show-hillary-clintons-state-department-deeply-involved-trans-pacific-2032948
Hillary, I think it's time to............................
-----------------and come clean, your past record is pretty daunting to overcome on this issue, and my one vote is driving this issue on who I am voting for because it is about the economy, always has been
Because, Sanders has it right, everything, and I mean everything, in the vote is based on economics and what a candidate is going to do for that voter-----------------these "trade deals" has created more poverty, more homelessness, intercity problems, infrastructure decay, education debt, bank corruptions, Corrupt Congress, Cayman Islands, -----------------you name it, it's right at the feet of these "trade deals" ---------------every time
Honk-----------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)but the brazenness in openly admitting it is pretty astonishing.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Cobalt Violet
(9,976 posts)They are rather like the Donald's supporters in that way. heck she could even "shoot somebody" and not lose voters.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)Duh!
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Anyone that doesn't see this is delusional.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Because nothing bad is ever Clinton's responsibility.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)
Blue_Adept
(6,499 posts)until they say something we want to believe.
amborin
(16,631 posts)She is the main person who wrote the TPP terms.
She was the main cheerleader for the TPP for years!
here is one of numerous examples of her promoting TPP:
In 2011, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton penned a piece for Foreign Policy describing this regional policy as a “pivot point.”
Clinton further articulated interest in expanding economic liberalization through agreements such as the Korea-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.
This re-balancing became a cornerstone for the Obama administration’s foreign policy objectives, and the principal economic and foreign policy component of the ‘pivot to Asia’ is the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
The TPP's MAIN BENEFICIARY IS WALL STREET!
The TPP permanently immunizes Wall Street from REGULATIONS. It especially PROTECTS Wall Street from a TRANSACTION TAX, aka a TOBIN TAX.
This earlier post from DU explains:
If you thought the recent bills passed in the house gutting Dodd Frank were bad, it's nothing compared to what the TPP will do to financial regulation.
Not only will it be gutted, but it will be gutted in such a way that prevents future congresses and presidents from ever reinstating it, because it means they can sue us in rigged ISDS tribunals to gut our regulations.
Don't take my word for it. From Elizabeth Warren:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/18/elizabeth-warren-trade-deal_n_6350312.html
This post from DU explains further:
Elwood P Dowd
Wall Street is responsible for TPP, and the point man for it came from Citigroup.
The USTR office that wrote TPP is infested with corporate lawyers and lobbyists. In this case, its former Citigroup executive Michael Froman who worked for Robert Rubin that's in charge. He was given a 4 million dollar bonus to take the job at USTR. TPP is all about making money and giving more power to Wall Street and their corporate business partners.
Wall Street Pays Bankers to Work in Government and It Doesn't Want Anyone to Know
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120967/wall-street-pays-bankers-work-government-and-wants-it-secret
Citigroup is one of three Wall Street banks attempting to keep hidden their practice of paying executives multimillion-dollar awards for entering government service. In letters delivered to the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) over the last month, Citi, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley seek exemption from a shareholder proposal, filed by the AFL-CIO labor coalition, which would force them to identify all executives eligible for these financial rewards, and the specific dollar amounts at stake. Critics argue these “golden parachutes” ensure more financial insiders in policy positions and favorable treatment toward Wall Street.
<snip>
Other banks’ policies are subtler. Banks often defer certain types of compensation in order to retain talent. When an executive terminates employment, unvested stock options and other forms of deferred compensation are usually forfeited. But several companies let executives’ equity options continue to vest if they leave for a government position, or allow them to keep retention bonuses that would otherwise be returned to the firm. A 2004 tax law banned accelerated payments but made an exemption for employees who leave for government service. Critics wonder whether the gifts are intended to fill the government with friendly faces who will act in their former employer’s interests.
“It fuels the revolving door between banks and the government,” said Michael Smallberg, an investigator for the Project On Government Oversight (POGO), whose 2013 report detailed these types of compensation agreements. The average executive branch salary is substantially less than these millions in awards, so the bonuses effectively supplement the lower pay, raising questions about who the government officials actually work for.
Citigroup is a serial user of these practices, if only because so many of its alumni serve in government. Jack Lew, Weiss’ boss at Treasury, had $250,000 to $500,000 in restricted stock vested after he left an executive position at the bank, part of a $1.1 million golden parachute revealed during the confirmation process. Stanley Fischer, currently the vice chair of the Federal Reserve, had a similar clause in his Citigroup employment contract. U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman received over $4 million in multiple exit payments from Citigroup when he left for the Obama Administration.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026854944
Hillary not only had major input into writing the TPP, but she has been its leading cheerleader:
In one speech, she said the pact would "lower trade barriers while raising standards, creating more and better growth."
from:
U.S. News: Clinton Walking Fine Line on Trade Deal
Nicholas, Peter . Wall Street Journal, Eastern edition [New York, N.Y] 23 Apr 2015: A.4.
Hillary Clinton, herself, wrote a piece in Foreign Policy journal advertising and praising and advocating for TPP:
The future of politics will be decided in Asia, not Afghanistan or Iraq, and the United States will be right at the center of the action.
• By Hillary Clinton
• October 11, 2011
We are also making progress on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which will bring together economies from across the Pacific — developed and developing alike — into a single trading community.
Our goal is to create not just more growth, but better growth. We believe trade agreements need to include strong protections for workers, the environment, intellectual property, and innovation. They should also promote the free flow of information technology and the spread of green technology, as well as the coherence of our regulatory system and the efficiency of supply chains. Ultimately, our progress will be measured by the quality of people’s lives — whether men and women can work in dignity, earn a decent wage, raise healthy families, educate their children, and take hold of the opportunities to improve their own and the next generation’s fortunes. Our hope is that a TPP agreement with high standards can serve as a benchmark for future agreements — and grow to serve as a platform for broader regional interaction and eventually a free trade area of the Asia-Pacific.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/10/11/americas-pacific-century/
Do Hillary's promises of "strong protections for workers" mean anything?
NO, according to leading scholars of trade agreements, especially the TPP:
Scholars say that promises of worker protections are essentially an advertising gimmick:
The Myth of the Level Playing Field
Faux, Jeff. The American Prospect 23.3 (Apr 2012): 47-50.
The ILO conventions are specifically excluded from the U.S. draft of the TPP.
....According to the industry newsletter Inside U.S. Trade, the proposal states that TPP countries "should take measures to reduce trade in products made through forced or child labor" and should apply their national worker protections to free-trade and export-processing zones.....
....Unfortunately, for many governments in less developed countries and investors in developed countries, exploiting labor is the point- cheap workers represent these nations' comparative advantage. As then-Peruvian President Alan Garcia told a cheering Chamber of Commerce the night that the U.S. -Peru trade deal was signed: "Come and open your factories in my country so we can sell your own products back to the U.S."
....If under these labor chapters, workers can still be intimidated, fired, or even murdered for trying to form a labor union, how effective can they be?" The answer is, hardly effective at all. Almost 20 years after NAFTA, companies violate Mexico's labor laws with impunity.........
Moreover, even the tiny improvement of the United States' TPP labor proposal over the Peru agreement will certainly be watered down in the negotiations. None of the other governments are enthusiastic. Countries like Malaysia and Singapore are hostile, and the inclusion of Vietnam, where unions are an arm of the government and labor oppression is rampant, and Brunei, which has a large number of mistreated foreign workers and is ruled by a 600-year-old autocratic sultanate, mocks the assumption that governments will take labor-protection rules seriously.
Deputy National Security Adviser Michael Froman assured Inside U.S. Trade in January that the Obama team would push for "a high standard labor agreement" but then suggested that labor protections were not that important because the benefits of free trade to American workers would go far beyond whatever the content of the labor chapter turned out to be.
What would TPP do?
Scholars say:
The offshoring of work will accelerate.
Vietnam-where wages are lower than China- will take from what little is left of the bottom end of U.S. manufacturing.
Malaysia and Singapore will pull from somewhat higher up the value-added ladder.
To keep their jobs, American industrial workers will take cuts in pay and see middle-class benefits like pensions and health care disappear.
The TPP will help accelerate the evolution of a two-tier wage system - whereby younger workers get hired for less- into three tiers and more.
Because labor markets are connected, the downward pressure in manufacturing wages will spread to other sectors as well, and from private to public employment.
Wage depression also will expand out to workers in the large, extended labor force in countries with which we already have free-trade agreements.
Among those dragged down in this quickening race to the bottom will be workers in Mexico, where lack of job opportunities is a major factor in the vicious internal drug wars that have already claimed some 50,000 lives in the last five years.
As hard times there get harder, social instability is bound to spill over our borders in some form.
Under pressure from public opinion and Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton recently flip flopped on TPP, with weasel words.
But Hillary's past record speaks the truth. Hillary will pass TPP:
Duval
(4,280 posts)
Phlem
(6,323 posts)I never had a doubt.
She's as predictable as night and day.
greiner3
(5,214 posts)The national Chamber of Commerce is owned by entities outside the US. I agree with their statement but what is their ultimate goal
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)It will be wrapped in a pant suit and driving a Scooby Doo Van.
kgnu_fan
(3,021 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,639 posts)...then she should give a speech against the TPP, urging her Congressional supporters to vote No.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Better yet, look at all the work when you're sure your stomach can take it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Jesus, people, how obvious can this woman's phoniness and duplicity be? She's in the Nixon league.
Vinca
(53,994 posts)If she's the nominee, Hillary will go right at the speed of lightning.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)As her supporters argue for things you'd never in a million years think you'd hear from Democrats.
senz
(11,945 posts)She's a Republican in Democratic clothing and would be a disaster for the American people.
longship
(40,416 posts)I would think so. We'll see.
Orange Butterfly
(205 posts)TPP is a disaster
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)PeterGM
(71 posts)I don't know if it's called Minerva model in Danish and this is what it looks like:
...................... ___________ MODERN ___________
......................| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ S|
......................| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
......................| _ _C _ _ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |
......................| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
MATERIALISTIC |__________GRAY ZONE____________|IDEALISTIC
......................| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
......................| R _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
......................| _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
......................|_______________|______________T|
.........................................Traditional
This Diagram is one we commonly use when analyzing voters, since we are a multiparty system.
This more or less explains the ideological placements of these four candidates: Clinton (C), Rubio (R), Ted Cruz (T) and Sanders (S).
To Sanders supporters the system needs fixing because the system is unjust and corrupt. They to overthrow the current one because they want a more just and equal society. They are typically dreamers and risk loving. They usually have an uncertain economic situation and an uncertain economic future, typically from a younger generation. This is not want Clinton supporters care about. Their concerns are a stable economy, they want a more predictable economic future for their family and themselves. They are risk averse, and not supporters of change because they are happy with their current situation. Status and image is important to them and they have higher than average incomes and most likely from an older, better off, generation.
Your arguments appealing to corruption doesn't matter to a Clinton voter, they see it as a benefit that Clinton can game the system to get "things done". Your arguments appealing to trade deal support does not matter because Clinton supporters are the Service job employees that aren't affected by trade deals, like Industrial workers are.
If you want to convince a Clinton supporter you must appeal to Financial insecurity and the consequences of Financial deregulation, because this hurts them. If you want to appeal to Clinton supporters go for her role in lobbying for the Crime bill in 94, her ties to the private prison industry and her infamous "super predator" line, this hurts her image.... and badly. If you want to appeal to Clinton's supporters show the speeches against the Iraq war he made, this again appeals to image. If you want to appeal to Clinton supporters talk about her vote on No Child Left Behind Act in 2001, this directly appeals to the uncertainty of the future and financial security of their children.
At least this is my take on it.
TLDR: If you want to appeal to a Clinton supporter, don't speak about idealism and justice... speak about financial security, future certainty and image instead.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Of course she will...
She's about BIG money, BIG power and BIG industry.
Beartracks
(14,591 posts)... like mob pressure if he tried? I keep reading his quote in a smug Joisey accent.
=============
Mudcat
(179 posts)Don Draper
(187 posts)were she to get elected. You have to be extremely naive to think otherwise. It was the clintons that gave us the shitty nafta which completely screwed over American workers. The republicans loved nafta and they love the TPP. The Goldwater girl would sign TPP as soon as she could; no doubt about it! Bernie would not sign it. Plain & simple.
I don't see how anyone who is a progressive could support someone like Hillary who is clearly not a progressive. The unions who backed her in Nevada have to be out of their minds to endorse someone who is going to turn around and screw them on trade. Bernie is the only democratic candidate that actually fights for the workers. We can't afford to have another Clinton in the White House.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)is living in la la land
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)
Uncle Joe
(65,134 posts)Thanks for the thread, AzDar.