Bernie Sanders and the High Cost of "Free" College

[Kang Colby]

One of their favorite rhetorical tools in this and other social policy debates is to compare America, land of high tuition, to other countries that have publicly-funded free tuition. In a Washington Post op-ed from October of last year, for instance, 2016 presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders argued: "In Finland, Denmark, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Mexico, public colleges and universities remain tuition-free. They're free throughout Germany, too. ... Governments in these countries understand what an important investment they are making, not just in the individuals who are able to acquire knowledge and skills but for the societies these students will serve as teachers, architects, scientists, entrepreneurs and more."

In other words: these countries are prepared to eat America's lunch economically because they are enlightened enough to have free public higher education.

Enrollment rates: Data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development indicate that the U.S. is tied for 12th out of 18 countries with available data when it comes to the share of citizens 25 and under that enroll in college, at 47 percent. Not so good, right? Especially compared to Denmark (56 percent) and Slovenia (68 percent) – two free college countries – that rank near the top. However, the countries nearest the U.S. – Germany (45 percent), Austria (47 percent) and Iceland (49 percent) – have free or very low tuition. And two countries at the bottom of the list – Sweden (40 percent) and Finland (41 percent) – offer free tuition. (The U.S. is ranked higher on the World Bank's measure of enrollment).

Attainment: Educational attainment tells a similar story. When it comes to the share of workers aged 25-34 who have finished tertiary education, the US is tied for eighth with Sweden, Switzerland and Israel at 46 percent. Korea (68 percent) and Canada (58), who both charge relatively high tuition, are at the top of the list. On the free college side, Ireland and Norway make the top six, but Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Germany and the Czech Republic finish behind America.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/articles/2016-02-23/bernie-sanders-and-the-high-cost-of-free-college


Once again, if it's too good to be true....it probably is.

[cantbeserious]

1. Predictably Spreading Establishment FUD - Meme Number 119

eom

[JackInGreen]

28. Do you have a guidebook or something?

I want a copy!

[cantbeserious]

32. Just Notes Taken Each Time A New Anti Bernie Meme Appears - The Opposition Is So Transparent

eom

[bunnies]

2. If you dumb it down enough,

The stupid can misunderstand it. Hooray?

[Wilms]

3. The author, Andrew Kelly.

Andrew P. Kelly is a resident scholar and director of the Center on Higher Education Reform at the American Entrprise (sic) Institute.

http://www.usnews.com/topics/author/andrew_kelly

The typo is from their web-site.

[Kang Colby]

5. Attack the messenger and not the substance. Typical.

[Fawke Em]

7. The substance is crap because it's from a right wing think tank.

It's typical Republican talking points.

And you're defending that?

[Kang Colby]

9. Honestly, I didn't even bother to notice the author. I read the statistics, fact checked them, and

felt comfortable posting. The goal here is to get people to think and question this "free college" proposal. If you disagree that's fine, but let's have a substantive discussion.

[Fawke Em]

16. OK. This is wrong:

One explanation is that publicly-funded free tuition spreads scarce resources across all students, including students from wealthier families who could pay something and would likely attend and complete college even if they had to.

First, Bernie has always said that students who want to enroll in college must still meet the standards of entrance that have always existed. Students who do not apply themselves and earn lower GPAs will NOT get into college. Therefore, not EVERYONE is going to go.

Secondly, most wealthy students will still attend private universities and colleges. Will a few go to a state school? Sure, but if you really think wealthy parents and their kids are going to choose the University of Podunk over Yale or Harvard, you're smoking something.

[Kang Colby]

20. Thank you for a substantive post on this topic.

I think Sanders' does a poor job of financing his theoretical proposal. College could be much cheaper if students started using common sense...not paying $100,000 for an English degree from Big Online U. Inc.

[Wilms]

22. Further in that point...

...not everyone needs a college education, per se. They need a job. That's why not everyone need go.

In the US, "the best way to get a job is a college degree", well...sort of. I don't know if they use that expression as much elsewhere.

[azmom]

36. No wonder you posted from this right wing

Think tank.

You actually agree with this shit.

I just can't. Done with the likes of you.

[JackRiddler]

10. Do you know what AEI is?

[Kang Colby]

11. Nope. I just fact checked the stats included in the article and felt comfortable posting.

Thanks

[JackRiddler]

12. Will you figure out what AEI is?

Never mind!

[Kang Colby]

14. This isn't about AEI - whatever that is. It's about Sanders' preposterous proposals. n/t

[JackRiddler]

34. That's like saying, "This isn't about GOP - whatever that is."

You shouldn't be so proud of your ignorance.

And yeah, so preposterous is the idea of spending 10% of the Pentagon budget on ending public college tuition that even the right-wing think-tank warrior you quote approvingly has a whole database of countries where it's normal. Preposterous!

[Kang Colby]

37. Preposterous is the idea of dipping into middle class 401K plans to send students to a

four year vacation at Kegger U.

[JackRiddler]

38. It surprises me that you don't know what AEI is.

Clearly, it's no coincidence that their message resonates so well with you. That rhetoric shows you have plenty of common ground. Maybe you should try out with them.

[Armstead]

15. Attacking the bearer of opinion, not news

[JackRiddler]

8. AEI! Too much!!!

[azmom]

4. What would you expect from a conservative think tank?

[Fawke Em]

6. Once again, if it's crap, it's probably written by a conservative.

And, guess what?

It was:

Andrew P. Kelly is a resident scholar and director of the Center on Higher Education Reform at the American Enterprise Institute.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-enterprise-institute

[Armstead]

13. AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE -- Conservative Think Tank

It's good to know what right wing Republicans think of Sanders plan. Thank you.

[mwooldri]

17. If you want free tuition right now....

... then apply to a German university.

If German universities and technical colleges can accept anyone who applies and have their tuition paid - no matter where in the world the student is.... then why can't we? If Finland can make great economic progress through having a highly educated workforce... then why can't we?

Tertiary Education needs to be affordable. Even with the taxpayer paying all of a students' tuition there will still be other expenses, and student loans for this purpose will not go away.

[MaggieD]

18. Someone alerted on this

Apparently because you don't support Bernie's free college plan. LOL!

Failed alert 2-5.

[TheProgressive]

19. Prove your statement... lets see the Alert.

[GGJohn]

25. See post #21. eom.

[TheProgressive]

30. Thank you for this...!

[GGJohn]

31. No problem. eom

[GGJohn]

21. Just a heads up,

this was alerted on, here are the results.

On Wed Feb 24, 2016, 08:06 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Bernie Sanders and the High Cost of "Free" College
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511331689

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Right wing think tank crap

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 24, 2016, 08:10 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion piece, if you disagree with it, then offer a counter opinion instead of trying to silence those you disagree with.
Too damn much of this attempting to silence what we don't agree with, that's the republican play book, not ours.
Leave it and learn to debate instead of censor.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think it's over the top. Don't agree but not over the top.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Argue the merits of the policy. Be prepared to defend your position.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see anything right wing about this. Frivolous alert. Apparently alerted on because it does not agree with what Bernie supporters believe.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was juror #2.

[Kang Colby]

23. Thanks...Bernie people act like I should have conducted a background investigation

on the author before posting.

I stick around and post because of honest folks like you. Hope all is well.

[GGJohn]

24. Pretty good,

we lost 2 calves to a Mountain Lion a few nights ago, oh well, they gotta eat also, unfortunately, it was 2 of our animals, just the cost of running a farm.

[Kang Colby]

27. That's unfortunate. I guess those old mountain lions like veal.

[daleanime]

26. It's so much easier to succeed....

when you try to do nothing.

[Todays_Illusion]

29. So why is this very conservative publication posted here on DU?

[GGJohn]

33. Why not refute or debate it? eom.

[Todays_Illusion]

35. I don't argue over conservative talking point lies.

[GGJohn]

40. Your choice. eom.

[Bjornsdotter]

39. I love these threads!

I really like sharing them with my cousin who lives in Sweden. He attended university for free, was paid a wage to be student, obtained his PhD debt free, and bought a house within one year after graduating.


Yeah...we really enjoy these threads on how it doesn't work.

[Kang Colby]

41. Does your cousin give you a hard time about economics?

Sweden is a country of less than 10 million, the United States has nearly 320 million people. Sweden has a GDP of 500 billion dollars, the U.S. GDP is over 16 trillion dollars. I could go on and on, but comparing Sweden to the United States is like comparing a rural retirement community to NYC.

[Bjornsdotter]

42. Well considering Sweden

..is about 50 years ahead of the US. They take care of their people (people before corporations), their veterans are taken care of, their elderly are taken care of, they don't have 20+ million children living in poverty, they don't think that it's okay to let their citizens drink poisoned water, people don't lose their homes over hospital bills, and well....I really could go on.

America puts corporations ahead of people and we can well afford what all other first world nations provide for their citizens but when our leaders say "it's too hard" and "we can't" it is a losing battle.

[Kang Colby]

45. Considering Sweden has about 4 million workers and a higher unemployment rate...

I'm not sure they are a relevant benchmark.

[Bjornsdotter]

46. One of many

...first world nations that provide the same, one of many.

[Arugula Latte]

53. Why is the population a factor? If you have a larger population, you have a larger tax base.

This "but the country has a small population!" argument is always trotted out and it's always pretty moronic.

[Jarqui]

43. One factor that the article overlooks is income inequality

More of the tuition money will help the middle class or poor. There are not nearly as many rich as there are poor and many of the rich will go to private colleges.

This is a veiled redistribution of wealth - much like what he does with single payer.

If lower income people don't have to pay tuition and save a bunch on their health care, they'll have more money in their bank account without getting a raise in pay => improving income inequality.

That's an important thing that shouldn't be overlooked.

Secondly, taxing Wall Street transactions by a fraction of one percent pays for it completely. That's not going to hurt Wall Street in a big way but it will help the less advantaged. It's a no brainer financially.

Thirdly, Bernie mentioned that he want to provide hope to poor kids that if they did well in school, they could go to college. Try to convince me no poor kids will seize this opportunity.

Fourth, the law of supply and demand: the law of demand says that the quantity of a good demanded rises as the price falls, and vice versa. In other words, if college tuition becomes free, enrollment will go up.

As for attainment and graduation rates, there are many other factors in there beyond tuition. In the early years, graduation rates may fall because some of the kids coming from poor areas may not be as prepared. Over time, it should improve if the schools are doing their jobs.

The US isn't tops in any of the categories in that article so trying something new isn't going to hurt terribly.

Lastly, I have a feeling the young people who are supporting Bernie so enthusiastically seem to really appreciate this policy. They ought to know.

[Kang Colby]

44. He isn't taxing "Wall Street".

He is taxing any low income or middle income worker who makes a contribution to their 401K plan. While 50 basis points may not seem like a lot to you, hundreds of contributions over the course of a working career amplified by compound interest over several decades will have a major impact on middle and low income savers. Essentially, we are talking about robbing tomorrow's seniors to pay for this hair brained scheme.

[Jarqui]

50. It's not 50 basis points. It's about 4 basis points

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/opinion/the-case-for-a-tax-on-financial-transactions.html?_r=0

(a basis point is one-hundredth of a percentage point, or 0.01 percent) would raise $185 billion over 10 years,

0.01% = $18.5 billion/yr
Bernie needs 70-75 Billion (maybe less with Pell grants considered)
0.04% = $74 Billion

Some feel it could be focused on "speculation" transactions.

Average annual transaction costs on a 401K before Bernie's tax are 0.45% on $91,800 = $413.10.

If you transact $91,800 (ave 401k value) over the year, and it had to apply to all transactions including 401Ks, Bernie's tax would cost you $36.72/yr. I don't think that's too terrible.

[Kang Colby]

57. Did you bother to read your own article?

I view Senator Sanders’s proposal for a 50-basis-point tax on stock trades to be too high.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/opinion/the-case-for-a-tax-on-financial-transactions.html?_r=0

Bernie's proposal requires 50 basis points for 67% funding alone. Even the author who is misleading people about Tobin taxes, doesn't agree with Bernie...LOL...that's rich.

[Jarqui]

58. Sorry that part of the article is not accurate

https://berniesanders.com/issues/its-time-to-make-college-tuition-free-and-debt-free/

It’s Time to Make College Tuition Free and Debt Free

FULLY PAID FOR BY IMPOSING A TAX ON WALL STREET SPECULATORS.
The cost of this $75 billion a year plan is fully paid for by imposing a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy seven years ago. More than 1,000 economists have endorsed a tax on Wall Street speculation and today some 40 countries throughout the world have imposed a similar tax including Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, and China. If the taxpayers of this country could bailout Wall Street in 2008, we can make public colleges and universities tuition free and debt free throughout the country.

$75 Billion is what he's going collect from his transaction tax.

Per the previous article 0.01% of transactions provides $18.5 billion

Therefore, we need 0.04% of transactions to provide $74 billion.

Still laughing? No, I didn't think so.

[MaggieD]

55. Exactly - except Bernie isn't honest about that

He's uses the typical political trick of calling it a name everyone can agree to hate -- "Wall Street Speculators." Except he doesn't tell you that YOU - Joe Middle Class - are considered a wall street speculator.

I'd have some respect for him if he was honest and said, hey people, I am going to tax your 401K to pay for college for all kids, including them rich kids.

[LiberalAndProud]

47. Too many of the brightest and best are currently locked out. The scholarship process is daunting.

We have no right to let education be priced out of reach for anyone. We can make the choice as a nation to invest in our future, or not. We can continue to manufacture dead end killing machines or we can work toward a better future for our children. That's all. Idealistic, surely, but we should aspire to a better future rather than to a final battlefield on the plains of Armageddon.

[ultragreen]

48. Umm, okay

You DO realize that college tuition has been increasing at twice the rate of inflation? If that continues much longer, only the very rich will be able to afford a college education. I'm sure such a state-of-affairs would do wonders for the U.S. economy and our ability to compete with other countries in the world.

[Kang Colby]

49. Why is the cost increasing? n/t

[jeff47]

51. Because it can.

Easy credit for student loans means students can pay high tuition.

[LiberalAndProud]

56. It's not a mystery.

The reason, say researchers, is that deep budget cuts in state funding for public higher education and shrinking subsidies at private schools have pushed a greater share of the cost onto students and their families.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/16/why-college-costs-are-so-high-and-rising.html

We've been moving in the wrong direction.

[Arugula Latte]

52. How about: "Hillary Clinton and the incredibly high cost of the fucking Iraq War she voted for"

If she and other capitulating DINO sell-outs hadn't been so concerned with their political viability at the time we could have used the trillions wasted on the invasion/mass slaughter of Iraq to make public colleges affordable.

Why does she have such fucked-up priorities?

Some "Democrat" she is.

[Yeager29]

54. There is no such thing as "free college"

Because everything has a cost. The only thing to be decided is what the cost is and who's going to pay for it. In this case, if college is made available to all at little to no cost, then the cost must be born by the taxpayer. This is fine, if the taxpayer has enough money to pay for it. The same principle applies to all "socialist" agendas. Adequate food, proper shelter, clean water, education, social welfare, etc. are all within reach of American society. The problem is all the other programs we have in place that devour our national treasury. This is where we bog down. Paying billions to other countries who hate us, fighting constant immoral/illegal foreign wars, unlimited welfare to corporations, funding oil companies, etc. are eating us out of house and home. If a free education allows a person the opportunity to grow up and be more productive, thus becoming a "larger" taxpayer the rest of his life, paying more into the treasury and returning not only the cost of his education, but a broader tax base, the return on investment is something you would think even a republican could understand, if he could only unwrap his mind from the word "free." The rest of the social improvements could follow if we can just show the value of one simple program that really, truly benefits society that anyone can see. Rant over.